PDA

View Full Version : On what Jewish date was that?



37818
03-24-2016, 06:48 PM
". . . And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, . . ." -- Mark 14:12.

arnoldo
03-25-2016, 06:32 AM
Apparently, the jewish festival of unleavened bread and passover were used interchangeably by the gospel writers.

Luke 22:1 . . . Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.

37818
03-25-2016, 12:11 PM
Apparently, the jewish festival of unleavened bread and passover were used interchangeably by the gospel writers.

Luke 22:1 . . . Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.

The feast of unleavened began on the 15th of Nisan through 21st. The evening of the 15th is when the Jews eat the Passover. The evening precedes the day.

Truthseeker
03-25-2016, 04:17 PM
The evening precedes the day.Confusing. Don't you mean sundown? The word "evening" is a span of time, not a moment, right?

37818
03-25-2016, 08:41 PM
Confusing. Don't you mean sundown? The word "evening" is a span of time, not a moment, right?

Technically, the word translated "evening" means "late." I understand it being used meaning past sun down in the contexts.
". . . And at even, when the sun did set, . . ." -- Mark 1:32. In any rate it denotes the ending of the current day and the beginning of the next in Jewish reckoning. The Jews would eat the Passover the evening of the 15th of Nisan.

37818
03-26-2016, 05:42 AM
If Mark 14:12 was on the 14h of Nisan that would mean Jesus and his disciples eat the Passover in the evening of the 15th of Nisan (Mark 14:16-18). Thus making the day of His crucifixion on the 15th.

Faber
03-26-2016, 07:27 AM
If Mark 14:12 was on the 14h of Nisan that would mean Jesus and his disciples eat the Passover in the evening of the 15th of Nisan (Mark 14:16-18). Thus making the day of His crucifixion on the 15th.
What's confusing to Bible Scholars is that Jesus and the disciples held their seder at least one day before the Jewish leaders did. Possibly as early as Tuesday evening after sunset (Which would be Wednesday, 12 Nisan). Some groups, including the Essenes and those adhering to the Jubilee calendar, always celebrated the Passover feast Tuesday evening/Wednesday morning every year. It probably helped alleviate the crowds on the day of the Passover sacrifices.

37818
03-26-2016, 12:06 PM
What's confusing to Bible Scholars is that Jesus and the disciples held their seder at least one day before the Jewish leaders did. Possibly as early as Tuesday evening after sunset (Which would be Wednesday, 12 Nisan). Some groups, including the Essenes and those adhering to the Jubilee calendar, always celebrated the Passover feast Tuesday evening/Wednesday morning every year. It probably helped alleviate the crowds on the day of the Passover sacrifices.
On what basis? What is the earliest citation for this?

Faber
03-26-2016, 05:47 PM
Let me first make it clear, the writings of the early church fathers are not inspired Scripture. Not only that, but some of the early writings intentionally push false teachings. But these writings contain the beliefs and traditions of the earliest church.


Then our Lord said unto us, "Verily I say unto you, yet a little while, and ye shall leave Me, for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of His flock shall be scattered." And Judas came with the scribes and with the priests of the people, and delivered up our Lord Jesus. But this was on Wednesday, for when we had eaten the Passover on Tuesday in the evening, we went out to the Mount of Olives, and in the night they took our Lord Jesus; and on the next day, which was Wednesday, He remained in prison in the house of Cepha the High Priest. In that day the chiefs of the people were assembled, and they took counsel together against Him. Again, the next day, which was Thursday, they brought Him to Pilate the governor, and again He remained in prison with Pilate, in the night after Thursday. And when it dawned on Friday, they accused Him much before Pilate, yet they could show nothing true, but they brought false witness against Him. And they asked Him from Pilate, to put Him to death, and they crucified Him on Friday. Didascalia Apostolorum, trans. by Margaret Dunlop Gibson M.R.A.S.; LL.D. (St Andrews); The Didascalia Apostolorum in English. (London; C. J. Clay and Sons; Cambridge University Press Warehouse; Ave Maria Lane; 1903), 94. Cepha is Caiaphas.)


And the priests and the elders (S. + considered and) commanded (S. + and decreed) that they should keep the feast with haste, that they might take Him without tumult; for the people of Jerusalem were occupied in the sacrifice and the eating of the Passover, and all the people from without had not yet come, because they deceived them [about] the days, that they might be reproved before God that they were greatly mistaken in everything. So they anticipated and kept the Passover three days earlier, in the eleventh of the moon on Tuesday; for they said, because that all the people go astray after Him, now that we have the opportunity to take Him; and then when all the people have come, we will kill Him before all men for His fault, and this will be known openly, and all the people will turn from after Him. Thus in the night (S. + when Wednesday dawned) Judas delivered up our Lord, but they had given the reward to Judas when he covenanted with them (S. + on the tenth of the moon) on Monday. (Ibid., p.98; S. + refers to added text in the Syrian version which didn’t appear in the Latin version.)



But Jesus was arrested late on that same third day, which was the nighttime of the eleventh of the month, the sixteenth before the Kalends of April. The dawning of the fourth day of the week was the nighttime of the [Jewish] twelfth day of the month, the fifteenth before the Kalends of April. The daytime of the thirteenth day of the month was the fifth day of the week, but the [ensuing] nighttime was the fourteenth of the month, the fourteenth before the Kalends of April. The daytime of the fourteenth of the month was the eve of the Sabbath, the thirteenth before the Kalends of April. The daytime of the fifteenth of the month was the Sabbath, the twelfth before the Kalends of April. (Panarion, Section IV, series 51,26,3 (Against the sect which does not accept the Gospel according to John, and his Revelation). Epiphanius, Panarion, trans. by Frank Williams, The Panarion of Epiphanius of Salamis, Books II and III (Sections 47-80, De Fide), (Nag Hammadi and Manichaean Studies). (Leiden, The Netherlands: E.J. Brill, 1994), 57-58.)

Faber
03-26-2016, 05:50 PM
From some commentaries:


The day is breaking, which constitutes, according to John (prima facie), the 14th of Nisan, in the evening of which and commencement of the 15th the Passover would be killed. According to the synoptists, that Passover meal was already over, and the first great day of the feast had commenced - the day of convocation, with sabbatic functions and duties. The statements are apparently in hopeless variance. Many emphasize, exaggerate, and declare insoluble the contradiction, repudiating either the authority of John or that of the synoptists. Meyer and Lucke give their verdict with John, the eye-witness, as against the synoptic tradition. Strauss and Keim, who also hold the invincible discrepancy, lift the synoptic account to a comparatively high state of historic validity, and thereby discredit the authenticity of the Fourth Gospel. (The Pulpit Commentary, Vol. 17 (Gospel of John). ~1889; edited by H.D.M. Spence and Joseph S. Exell; citing Heinrich Meyer and Friedrich Lucke)


There is here a contradiction for which there is no compromise solution. Either the Synoptic gospels are correct or John is. Scholars are much divided. But it seems most likely that the Synoptics are correct. . . There is no full explanation of this obvious discrepancy; but this seems to us the best. (William Barclay, The Daily Study Bible Series. The Gospel of John, Volume 2. (Westminster: John Knox Press, 1975), 293.)


[I]t must not be forgotten that over all three narratives extends the great difficulty of explaining “the first day of the feast of unleavened bread” (Matt., Mark) or “the day of unleavened bread” (Luke), and of reconciling the impression undeniably conveyed by them, that the Lord and his disciples ate the usual Passover, with the narrative of St. John, which not only does not sanction, but I believe absolutely excludes such a supposition. I shall give in as short a compass as I can, the various solutions which have been attempted, and the objections to them; fairly confessing that none of them satisfy me, and that at present I have none of my own. (Henry Alford, The Greek Testament, Vol. 1, The Four Gospels. (London: Rivingtons, Waterloo Place; & J. Deighton, Cambridge; 1849), 262.)


Another solution to the discrepancy is that different calendars were followed. The main calendar used was a lunisolar calendar, but some groups, apparently including the community at Qumran, used a solar calendar of 364 days (cf Schurer 1973-1987:1:587-601; Vanderkam 1992). The main drawback to this solution is the lack of evidence for Jesus’ having followed the solar calendar (cf. Vanderkam 1992:820). The other main proposal is that the Galileans and the Pharisees reckoned days from sunrise to sunrise, while Judeans did so from sunset to sunset. This means the Judeans, including these opponents, would slaughter their lambs late Friday afternoon, whereas Jesus and his disciples had theirs slaughtered late Thursday afternoon (Hoehner 1977:83-90; cf. Morris 1971:782-785). It has also been suggested that the slaughtering of the lambs actually took place over two days because of the volume of lambs involved (Hoehner 1977:84). According to these solutions, Jesus had already eaten Passover, but the opponents have yet to do so. A major drawback to theories of different days for celebrating Passover is “the lack of any hint of such a distinction in the gospels themselves” (Blomberg 1987:176-177). (Rodney A. Whitacre, The IVP New Testament Commentary Series, John. (Westmont, IL: Inter-Varsity Press, 1999), 437-8.)

Faber
03-26-2016, 06:13 PM
Among the thousands of fragments found in the caves around Qumran, one fragment in particular, given the designation 4Q321, gives more information on the calendar used by the Essenes. It contains twelve months, unnamed but referred to as the first month, the second month, etc. The third, sixth, ninth and twelfth months have 31 days; the other months have 30 days. 364 days total; 52 weeks. The first month corresponds roughly with Nisan, the first month of the Lunar Calendar. It begins every year on a Tuesday evening at sunset. The first day of the first month thus falls on Wednesday every year. Passover is on the 15th day of the first month, also beginning on Tuesday at sunset and continuing to Wednesday at sunset. Waiving of the barley sheaves, instead of being the Sunday immediately after Passover, is on Sunday, the 26th day of the first month, eleven days after Passover. The Festival of the First Fruits is on Sunday, the 15th day of the third month, sixty days after Passover. The Feast of Trumpets is on Wednesday, the first day of the seventh month. The Day of Atonement is on Friday, the 10th day of the seventh month. The Feast of Tabernacles is eight days, beginning on Wednesday, the 15 day of the seventh month, and continuing to the following Wednesday. It was intended to be a perpetual calendar, with none of the feasts days (except the fourth day of Tabernacles) falling on the Sabbath.

Other documents from the caves made reference to the Jubilee calendar. 4Q320 and 4Q328 give the schedule for the several orders of priests for their weekly service in the temple in accordance with the Jubilee calendar. 4Q326 lists the days of the Sabbaths, Passover and other feast days.

Annie Jaubert (1912-1980) was a French Bible scholar known for her research on the calendrical teachings of the Hebrew Bible and other ancient Hebrew literature. She offered a solution to the conflicting chronologies of the Passover in the four Gospels.


In conclusion: it is certain that, at the beginning of the first century, A.D., there existed two liturgical calendars. In one of these the feasts were assigned to days of the lunar month; this was the official calendar, about which we can find information in later rabbinical Judaism. In the second, the feasts always fell on fixed days of the week. The character of this calendar may now be discovered in contemporary Jewish sources. It is witnessed only in its Jubilees-Qumran type; but it is probable that it also existed in modified forms which could have either preserved an intermediary stage of the calendar's development or attempted a certain compromise with the official reckoning. (Annie Jaubert; The Date of the Last Supper. Translated by Isaac Rafferty. (Staten Island, NY: Alba House, 1965), 52.)


What is interesting is that on this calendar Passover always fell on a Wednesday, two weeks after the spring equinox. In AD 30 the spring equinox took place on Wednesday, March 22 (Julian calendar), just before midnight, local Jerusalem time. If the Essene calendar began the day before, Tuesday March 21 at sunset and continued through Wednesday March 22 until sunset, then the Passover feast according to the calendars of the Essenes, the Damascus Document, the Book of Jubilees and the First Book of Enoch would have taken place on Tuesday night, April 5.

Following the chronology in Matthew’s Gospel, it was late Monday afternoon when the disciples asked Jesus about future events as they left the temple on their way to Bethany. As they climbed the slope to the Mount of Olives, they looked back at the temple. Jesus warned them of things to come, of the future destruction of the temple, and of His future return to Earth. Then as they continued on their journey to Bethany, He reminded them, “Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.” (Matthew 26:2)
They would be holding the Passover Seder on Tuesday after sunset, or Wednesday, by ancient Jewish reckoning. That would be Tuesday night before sunset by our reckoning. This is three nights before the official Passover observed by the priests, and two nights before the traditional Maundy Thursday That would be the very night that Jesus and the disciples held their Passover Seder if we adhere to the chronology in the Gospel According to Matthew and allow three days for the trial of Jesus and Herod’s involvement. The very same day that the Didiscalia Apostolorum and Epiphanius’s Panarion say it took place.

This is definitely NOT to say that I am in agreement with another discussion which claims that Jesus was crucified on Thursday.

37818
03-26-2016, 06:34 PM
Thank you Faber :thumb:

arnoldo rightly cited Luke:

Luke 22:1 . . . Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.

My study of John and the Law does not lead me to believe that he taught differently than the synoptic accounts. Rather John has been commonly misinterpreted.

". . . And it was the preparation of the passover, . . ." -- John 19:14.

". . . And in the fifteenth day of this month [is] the feast: seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten. In the first day [shall be] an holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of servile work [therein]: But ye shall offer a sacrifice made by fire [for] a burnt offering unto the LORD; two young bullocks, and one ram, and seven lambs of the first year: they shall be unto you without blemish: And their meat offering [shall be of] flour mingled with oil: three tenth deals shall ye offer for a bullock, and two tenth deals for a ram; A several tenth deal shalt thou offer for every lamb, throughout the seven lambs: And one goat [for] a sin offering, to make an atonement for you." -- Numbers 28:17-22.

". . . And upon that day shall the prince prepare for himself and for all the people of the land a bullock [for] a sin offering. And seven days of the feast he shall prepare a burnt offering to the LORD, seven bullocks and seven rams without blemish daily the seven days; and a kid of the goats daily [for] a sin offering." -- Ezekiel 45:22-23. Which is similar to Numbers as cited.

So what I see is that during the feast which by Jesus' day was also called the Passover, a preparation would would be done each day of the feast. So no conflict need be supposed. I stumbled on to this over 40 years ago.

Truthseeker
03-27-2016, 07:38 PM
Technically, the word translated "evening" means "late." I understand it being used meaning past sun down in the contexts.
". . . And at even, when the sun did set, . . ." -- Mark 1:32. In any rate it denotes the ending of the current day and the beginning of the next in Jewish reckoning. The Jews would eat the Passover the evening of the 15th of Nisan.
Let me make sure I have got everything straight now. Suppose the sun set at 6PM as we moderns reckon time. Then 7PM would be an evening time according to the Jews' time-reckoning.

Faber
03-27-2016, 08:53 PM
It's a little more complicated. For example, the evening tamid sacrifice took place around 3:00 PM. In a sense, the evening is when the sun was going down, which included late afternoon.

The daytime was divided into twelve hours, regardless of how long the day was. So we're talking mid-afternoon.

But in another sense, terms like Exodus 12:6, "in the evening" (KJV) or "at twilight" (NASB) are translations of "beyn ha'arbayim", literally "between the evenings." This is interpreted to mean between the actual sunset and the point where there is no longer any light in the sky.

Truthseeker
03-28-2016, 02:31 PM
It's a little more complicated. For example, the evening tamid sacrifice took place around 3:00 PM. In a sense, the evening is when the sun was going down, which included late afternoon.

The daytime was divided into twelve hours, regardless of how long the day was. So we're talking mid-afternoon.

But in another sense, terms like Exodus 12:6, "in the evening" (KJV) or "at twilight" (NASB) are translations of "beyn ha'arbayim", literally "between the evenings." This is interpreted to mean between the actual sunset and the point where there is no longer any light in the sky.

1) I forgot that the Jews were apt to be loose compared to us, who likes things to be exact.

2) Your last sentence is not clear. By "actual sunset" I don't think you mean the sun's astronomical position (90 degrees west azimuth from high noon). From a viewpoint looking west, the sun appears to be higher than its astronomical position because of atmospheric refraction (air bending the sunlight toward the earth
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_refraction
).

"No longer any light in the sky" -- I think you mean sunlight in the sky.

37818
03-28-2016, 05:43 PM
Let me make sure I have got everything straight now. Suppose the sun set at 6PM as we moderns reckon time. Then 7PM would be an evening time according to the Jews' time-reckoning.

It has been my understanding the Jewish reckoning days from sunset to sunset. But the hours of a "day" [day light hours] begin with sunrise. So in Jewish reckoning the 6 hour is about noon. [John's account uses Roman reckoning - Though there are those who suppose otherwise. See NASB notes. Like John 19:14.]

http://www.aish.com/jl/hol/o/48944546.html

http://www.iahushua.com/ST-RP/twt.htm


It's a little more complicated. For example, the evening tamid sacrifice took place around 3:00 PM. In a sense, the evening is when the sun was going down, which included late afternoon.

The daytime was divided into twelve hours, regardless of how long the day was. So we're talking mid-afternoon.

But in another sense, terms like Exodus 12:6, "in the evening" (KJV) or "at twilight" (NASB) are translations of "beyn ha'arbayim", literally "between the evenings." This is interpreted to mean between the actual sunset and the point where there is no longer any light in the sky.

In the modern Jewish translation "between the evenings" is now rendered "afternoon." "Between the evenings" being understood between "noon" and "sunset."

". . . And you shall keep it for inspection until the fourteenth day of this month, and the entire congregation of the community of Israel shall slaughter it in the afternoon. . . ." -- Exodus 12:6.
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9873

Faber
03-28-2016, 07:27 PM
In the modern Jewish translation "between the evenings" is now rendered "afternoon." "Between the evenings" being understood between "noon" and "sunset."

". . . And you shall keep it for inspection until the fourteenth day of this month, and the entire congregation of the community of Israel shall slaughter it in the afternoon. . . ." -- Exodus 12:6.
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9873

That would make sense.

Marta
04-06-2016, 05:05 PM
It's a little more complicated. For example, the evening tamid sacrifice took place around 3:00 PM. In a sense, the evening is when the sun was going down, which included late afternoon.

The daytime was divided into twelve hours, regardless of how long the day was. So we're talking mid-afternoon.

But in another sense, terms like Exodus 12:6, "in the evening" (KJV) or "at twilight" (NASB) are translations of "beyn ha'arbayim", literally "between the evenings." This is interpreted to mean between the actual sunset and the point where there is no longer any light in the sky.

I thought it was said, at some point, that this could have been a Jubilee year? Textual and practical considerations (https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=jubilee+bible+&ei=UTF-8&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-004)


other articles:

Are there any efforts to bring the two Easters together? (https://www.oikoumene.org/en/resources/documents/commissions/faith-and-order/i-unity-the-church-and-its-mission/frequently-asked-questions-about-the-date-of-easter) - World Council of Churches
Easter controversy -Modern calls for a reform of the date of Easter (http://www.digplanet.com/wiki/Easter_controversy)
Eve of Passover on Shabbat (http://www.digplanet.com/wiki/Eve_of_Passover_on_Shabbat)


Special notes: The sacrificial animal - Passover sacrifice (http://www.digplanet.com/wiki/Passover_sacrifice)

The sacrificial animal, which was either a lamb or goat, was necessarily a male, one year old, and without blemish. Each family or society offered one animal together, which did not require the "semikah" (laying on of hands), although it was obligatory to determine who were to take part in the sacrifice that the killing might take place with the proper intentions. Only those who were circumcised and clean before the Law might participate, and they were forbidden to have leavened food in their possession during the act of killing the paschal lamb. The animal was slain on the eve of the Passover, on the afternoon of the 14th of Abib,[2] after the Tamid sacrifice had been killed, i.e., at three o'clock, or, in case the eve of the Passover fell on Friday, at two.[3]

noting also - Jubilee Bible 2000:
"On the fourteenth of the first month between the two evenings is the LORD's passover." Leviticus 23:5 (http://biblehub.com/leviticus/23-5.htm)


Zmanim (http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/134527/jewish/Zmanim-Briefly-Defined-and-Explained.htm) (Hebrew: זְמַנִּים‎, literally "times", singular zman) are the specific times of the day with applications in Jewish law.

In Jewish law, a calendar day is defined as running from "evening" to "evening." This is based on the repetition of the phrase "... and there was evening, and there was morning ..."—evening preceding morning—in the account of creation in Genesis.[1]
Additionally, Jewish law requires certain activities to be undertaken "during the day"—or at a certain time during the day—while other activities are to be undertaken "at night"—or at a certain time during the night.

For either purpose, the status of the twilight hours just after sunset or just before sunrise is ambiguous. Judaism provides its own definitions for this period; at the same time, various rabbinic authorities differ on just how those definitions are to be applied for different purposes.

Marta
04-06-2016, 05:26 PM
The practice, as recorded in the Mishnah (Pes. 9:5), is that only Pesaḥ Miẓrayim ("Passover of Egypt") required the setting aside of the lamb four days before the festival, the sprinkling of the blood on lintel and doorposts, and that the lamb be eaten in "haste." The Mishnah (Pes. 10:5) explains the commands of the lamb sacrifice and the eating of *matzah ("unleavened bread") and maror ("bitter herbs") as follows: the lamb is offered because God "passed over" (pasaḥ); the unleavened bread is eaten because God redeemed the Israelites from Egypt (Ex. 12:39); and the bitter herbs, because the Egyptians embittered their lives (Ex. 1:14).
Passover sacrifice (http://www.digplanet.com/wiki/Passover_sacrifice)
and now read this:

The sacrifice which the Israelites offered at the command of God during the night before the Exodus from Egypt, and which they ate with special ceremonies according to divine direction. The blood of this sacrifice sprinkled on the door-posts of the Israelites was to be a sign to the angel of death, when passing through the land to slay the first-born of the Egyptians that night, that he should pass by the houses of the Israelites (Ex. xii. 1-23). This is called in the Mishnah the "Egyptian Passover sacrifice" ("Pesaḥ Miẓrayim"; Pes. ix. 5). It was ordained, furthermore (Ex. xii. 24-27), that this observance should be repeated annually for all time. This so-called "Pesaḥ Dorot," the Passover of succeeding generations (Pes. l.c.), differs in many respects from the Pesaḥ Miẓrayim. Passover (http://dev.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/cgi-bin/itemPrintMode.pl?Id=21095)


So the lamb was prepared four days prior - and was eaten in haste? Pesaḥ Miẓrayim. However, the observance is called, "Pesah Dorot"? Correct?

hansgeorg
11-24-2016, 03:21 AM
Confusing. Don't you mean sundown? The word "evening" is a span of time, not a moment, right?

Sundown is not the point.

In clear weather two stars have to be visible (can be planets rather than fixed stars).

Obviously, that is a thing you notice when it has gone on some time, a few minutes or more. Usually.

hansgeorg
11-24-2016, 03:28 AM
If Mark 14:12 was on the 14h of Nisan that would mean Jesus and his disciples eat the Passover in the evening of the 15th of Nisan (Mark 14:16-18). Thus making the day of His crucifixion on the 15th.


What's confusing to Bible Scholars is that Jesus and the disciples held their seder at least one day before the Jewish leaders did. Possibly as early as Tuesday evening after sunset (Which would be Wednesday, 12 Nisan). Some groups, including the Essenes and those adhering to the Jubilee calendar, always celebrated the Passover feast Tuesday evening/Wednesday morning every year. It probably helped alleviate the crowds on the day of the Passover sacrifices.

I'd rather go with Christ observing Nisan new moon one evening before Temple did or admitted to doing so.

If He had been in Judea, he would have been obliged to observe beginning of Nisan when Temple admitted the new moon and signalled it by beacons. You know, high beacons of fire, visible a long way, you light one as soon as you see next one.

But he arrived one week or so into Nisan to Bethany (Saturday) and Jerusalem (Sunday).

That means that he had been in Galilee and passed through probably Samaria, where Samarians were obviously not lighting beacons signalled by the Jewish temple. So Christ went by His own sighting rather than the Jewish Temple.

Since Hillel II, Jewish calendar has been so to speak fixed in advance, but back then when the Temple was standing, it was by agricultural and astronomic observation.

First, agricultural late in Adar/First Adar, to decide whether next month is Nisan or Second Adar and Nisan only after that.

Second, each new month begins with a sighted new moon.

The sighting of New Moon can obviously imply a divergence of when a Holy Month begins, as is still seen some years about new moon of Ramadan.

37818
11-26-2016, 08:53 AM
I'd rather go with Christ observing Nisan new moon one evening before Temple did or admitted to doing so.

If He had been in Judea, he would have been obliged to observe beginning of Nisan when Temple admitted the new moon and signalled it by beacons. You know, high beacons of fire, visible a long way, you light one as soon as you see next one.

But he arrived one week or so into Nisan to Bethany (Saturday) and Jerusalem (Sunday).

That means that he had been in Galilee and passed through probably Samaria, where Samarians were obviously not lighting beacons signalled by the Jewish temple. So Christ went by His own sighting rather than the Jewish Temple.

Since Hillel II, Jewish calendar has been so to speak fixed in advance, but back then when the Temple was standing, it was by agricultural and astronomic observation.

First, agricultural late in Adar/First Adar, to decide whether next month is Nisan or Second Adar and Nisan only after that.

Second, each new month begins with a sighted new moon.

The sighting of New Moon can obviously imply a divergence of when a Holy Month begins, as is still seen some years about new moon of Ramadan.

A new moon in 30 AD fell on March 22. Making the next day the 1st of that Jewish month, so the 14th of Nisan fall on our Wedensday.

Faber
11-26-2016, 03:55 PM
A new moon in 30 AD fell on March 22. Making the next day the 1st of that Jewish month, so the 14th of Nisan fall on our Wedensday.

But that was at 17:46 UT, about two hours after sunset in Jerusalem. By law, the new year or month wasn't declared until after two witnesses to the crescent moon stated their claim to the Sanhedrin. At sunset on Thursday, March 23, the crescent moon was 22 hours old, barely enough to be visible.

It is not possible to see the crescent of the new moon with the naked eye less than 15 hours before or after the moon’s closest approach to the sun, or when the moon is less that 7.5º of arc from the Sun. This is known as the Danjon limit, names after the French astronomer André-Louis Danjon.

But an abstract by Mohammad Ilyas entitled “The Danjon Limit of Lunar Visibility: A Re-examination,” states, “From a re-examination of Danjon’s data, it may be safely concluded that a more appropriate limiting elongation is closer to this value, i.e. ~10.5º.” That would make a minimum of about 20.6 hours after conjunction before the crescent moon could become visible to the naked eye of a trained observer intentionally searching for the crescent moon. Under ideal weather conditions and with well-trained eyes, that would be difficult.

The crescent moon would definitely have been visible by sunset on Friday, March 24. That would support John's Gospel in equating 1 Nisan, hence also 15 Nisan, with the weekly Shabbat.

37818
11-27-2016, 09:45 AM
But that was at 17:46 UT, about two hours after sunset in Jerusalem. By law, the new year or month wasn't declared until after two witnesses to the crescent moon stated their claim to the Sanhedrin. At sunset on Thursday, March 23, the crescent moon was 22 hours old, barely enough to be visible.

It is not possible to see the crescent of the new moon with the naked eye less than 15 hours before or after the moon’s closest approach to the sun, or when the moon is less that 7.5º of arc from the Sun. This is known as the Danjon limit, names after the French astronomer André-Louis Danjon.

But an abstract by Mohammad Ilyas entitled “The Danjon Limit of Lunar Visibility: A Re-examination,” states, “From a re-examination of Danjon’s data, it may be safely concluded that a more appropriate limiting elongation is closer to this value, i.e. ~10.5º.” That would make a minimum of about 20.6 hours after conjunction before the crescent moon could become visible to the naked eye of a trained observer intentionally searching for the crescent moon. Under ideal weather conditions and with well-trained eyes, that would be difficult.

The crescent moon would definitely have been visible by sunset on Friday, March 24. That would support John's Gospel in equating 1 Nisan, hence also 15 Nisan, with the weekly Shabbat.

When in history is the 15th of Nisan reckoned on the 6th day of the week according to the Jewish calendar?

Faber
11-27-2016, 10:53 AM
When in history is the 15th of Nisan reckoned on the 6th day of the week according to the Jewish calendar?

Unlikely any time between AD 28 and AD 33.