Overturned Tables

[Kelp]

14 And He found in the temple those who sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers doing business. 15 When He had made a whip of cords, He drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen, and poured out the changers’ money and overturned the tables. 16 And He said to those who sold doves, “Take these things away! Do not make My Father’s house a house of merchandise!” 17 Then His disciples remembered that it was written, “Zeal for Your house has eaten Me up.”(John 2:14-17, NKJV)

Does this verse have any relationship to modern Church practices? For instance, I know of a church that sells Christian books, shirts, CDs, etc. in their lobby. Is that a violation of a principle expressed here?

[Kelp]

:bump:

[Storico]

Good question, Kelp. That story in the New Testament.... was it referring to a place RIGHT inside the temple, as in, right in the worship area? Or was that an outer temple courtyard? Trying to recall. Either way, it would be a bad thing to set up merchandise tables right in any sanctuary. A sanctuary is where people worship God.

[ApologiaPhoenix]

Yes. It was going on in the worship area and they were also charging exorbitant rates as well. It was in essence ripping the people off.

[Teallaura]

I lived near a church that had a big flea market once a month. That always bothered me - although it never went anywhere near the sanctuary. Now, as long as you aren't interfering with worship or in the sanctuary/chapel - or deliberately ripping people off selling Jesus key chains - I don't think it's a problem.


That church still has those flea markets....

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/comsite5/bin/pdinventory.pl?pdlanding=1&referid=2930&purchase_type=ITM&item_id=0286-17808637

[Storico]

A church my father used to go to had a separate room for both the church library and merchandise. It wasn't even in the lobby. It was in the building, but in a separate room. Anything sold was sold to raise money for church programs. I never saw much of a problem with that. As long as it isn't right in a worship area or distracting people away from one, it should be fine.

[Sheepdog]

i would say no.

recall that sacrifices, ranging from incense offerings to live animals, were required by the law. the money changers etc. were using God's commands to exploit the poor.

in contrast, the latest Purpose Driven Bird Watcher's Guide or Right Behind aren't necessary to worship. no one is telling you to buy a CD because you have to use it in the worship service. (even the Bible, which arguably Christians should be bringing with them to church)

Now, if we were talking about something like prayer cloths, or other crap that televangelists peddle, it'd be a whole other story.

[Kelp]

i would say no.

recall that sacrifices, ranging from incense offerings to live animals, were required by the law. the money changers etc. were using God's commands to exploit the poor.

in contrast, the latest Purpose Driven Bird Watcher's Guide or Right Behind aren't necessary to worship. no one is telling you to buy a CD because you have to use it in the worship service. (even the Bible, which arguably Christians should be bringing with them to church)

Now, if we were talking about something like prayer cloths, or other crap that televangelists peddle, it'd be a whole other story.
They have some good stuff (Piper, Strobel, Grudem) and some harmless stuff (Veggie Tales, etc.) as well some iffy stuff like Neil T. Anderson. I don't recall seeing anything by Rick Warren or anything like that.

It's not in the Sanctuary and I don't think it's forced on anyone or bothers them or anything. It's in the area right outside the Sanctuary where they also have coffee.

[Smokering]

Slightly different angle, but I can see how 'peddling wares' after the service could offend some Christians, who don't like the idea of buying or selling on Sunday.

I don't think the situation's entirely analogous, though I do think it's kind of tacky! Given the 'Give us your money' reputation Christianity has due to unscrupulous televangelists, I think it's better not to bombard people with rows of shiny advertising before they even get to the sanctuary door! And certainly any kind of active peddling of goods is a no-no; people come to worship, not to be sales-pitched or guilt-tripped into making a purchase. The same applies to the offering; while necessary for the running of a church, I don't think it should be approached with fanfare and a spotlight. That's just crass.

On the other hand, I don't think there's something inherently sacred about a church building, so that it may not be used for legitimate business purposes during the week. As long as it isn't being used in some anti-Christian way, such as hosting a sweatshop or dealing crack, why not? It's just a building. In many cases it would be appropriate, given the world's resources, for a church to be constructed with alternative uses in mind during non-church times. Why leave a building to rot during the week when it could be used?

[Storico]

Smokering, my guess is that depending on the church, most churches don't sit empty and vacant all week. Small groups, youth groups, bible studies, meetings with priests and pastors, etc.... there's something on pretty much most nights of the week in some churches. Other churches, mostly Catholic ones that I know of, have mass every day for those who want them. So alternate uses for churches may not always work out on weekdays. It might work for a few churches here and there though, yes.

What actually ticks me off is that some churches just say "oppulence" when you walk into them. Everything expensive and new in the building, everyone wearing business suits, many sermons being about the prosperity gospel.... and some of those churches will have expensive "Christian wares" right out in the front foyer. CD's, random fiction books, not much in the way of decent teaching. I've been to two that were like that. I have no idea if it was just the denomination or the attitudes there, but I found all that so distracting that I didn't stay long. Maybe I judged it unfairly, but when money's what you feel the church is focused on over God, you wonder why you're sitting in that pew, especially when you don't have money but you do want God.

[Kelp]

Slightly different angle, but I can see how 'peddling wares' after the service could offend some Christians, who don't like the idea of buying or selling on Sunday.Yeah, that is another important issue.


I don't think the situation's entirely analogous, though I do think it's kind of tacky! Given the 'Give us your money' reputation Christianity has due to unscrupulous televangelists, I think it's better not to bombard people with rows of shiny advertising before they even get to the sanctuary door! And certainly any kind of active peddling of goods is a no-no; people come to worship, not to be sales-pitched or guilt-tripped into making a purchase. I've only been to one service. But, I didnt see any advertisements or anything. They didn't even mention it in the sanctuary or anything. There was an announcement from the pulpit about a fund raising thing and they took offering, but I don't think I felt coerced to give.

[Abelard]

Yup. Totally corrupt. Like there are always these Christian Tee shirts but never any Christian boxer shorts. Wassup with that? Are we supposed to run around like Donald Duck with shirts and no pants?

And Paul specifically says to not pay attention to mediums. Look at the tags in those shirts - half of them are mediums! So the churches are selling heretical shirts and encouraging a distinct lack of modesty. Where will it all end?

[Kelp]

Yup. Totally corrupt. Like there are always these Christian Tee shirts but never any Christian boxer shorts. Wassup with that? Are we supposed to run around like Donald Duck with shirts and no pants?

And Paul specifically says to not pay attention to mediums. Look at the tags in those shirts - half of them are mediums! So the churches are selling heretical shirts and encouraging a distinct lack of modesty. Where will it all end?
:lol: Wonderful!

[Storico]

:lmbo: "Look at the tags in those shirts - half of them are mediums!" awesome.

[Glenn P]

In this case at the temple, people were making financial offerings, but needed to change their money in order to do so. the money changers were using exorbitant rates, essentially profiting from the worship offerings that people were making.

This is not akin to a church selling things.

[Kelp]

In this case at the temple, people were making financial offerings, but needed to change their money in order to do so. the money changers were using exorbitant rates, essentially profiting from the worship offerings that people were making.

This is not akin to a church selling things.
Yeah, I figured as much. I just thought I'd ask.

[Smokering]

I've only been to one service. But, I didnt see any advertisements or anything. They didn't even mention it in the sanctuary or anything. There was an announcement from the pulpit about a fund raising thing and they took offering, but I don't think I felt coerced to give.
Ah, cool. Sorry, I wasn't talking about that specific church, didn't mean to sound like I was singling them out! I've only been to one church--once!--that I felt was really crass and commercial. They were basically hawking the 40 Days of Purpose books from the pulpit, in the foyer... it wasn't pretty. They also made a big song and dance about the offering. My church doesn't even pass an offering bag, just has a discreet offering box in the foyer, so I feel pretty uncomfortable in a church where people are singing about 'giving' up the front as ushers thrust bags up your nose--and then the pastor gave us an update later about how much we 'got' this week and people cheered! Skeezy.

[Kelp]

Ah, cool. Sorry, I wasn't talking about that specific church, didn't mean to sound like I was singling them out! I've only been to one church--once!--that I felt was really crass and commercial. They were basically hawking the 40 Days of Purpose books from the pulpit, in the foyer... it wasn't pretty. They also made a big song and dance about the offering. My church doesn't even pass an offering bag, just has a discreet offering box in the foyer, so I feel pretty uncomfortable in a church where people are singing about 'giving' up the front as ushers thrust bags up your nose--and then the pastor gave us an update later about how much we 'got' this week and people cheered! Skeezy.
Oh, okay. Yeah, that does sound pretty bad.

[Sheepdog]

They have some good stuff (Piper, Strobel, Grudem) and some harmless stuff (Veggie Tales, etc.) as well some iffy stuff like Neil T. Anderson. I don't recall seeing anything by Rick Warren or anything like that.

It's not in the Sanctuary and I don't think it's forced on anyone or bothers them or anything. It's in the area right outside the Sanctuary where they also have coffee.

i would have no problem with that. you'll have to pardon my examples, it's hard for me not to take jabs at the Christian culture.

[Sheepdog]

Yup. Totally corrupt. Like there are always these Christian Tee shirts but never any Christian boxer shorts. Wassup with that? Are we supposed to run around like Donald Duck with shirts and no pants?

the technical term is porky pigging. :wink:

[Kelp]

np about the examples, Sheep.

[Cynic Sage]

i would say no.

recall that sacrifices, ranging from incense offerings to live animals, were required by the law. the money changers etc. were using God's commands to exploit the poor.

in contrast, the latest Purpose Driven Bird Watcher's Guide or Right Behind aren't necessary to worship. no one is telling you to buy a CD because you have to use it in the worship service. (even the Bible, which arguably Christians should be bringing with them to church)

Now, if we were talking about something like prayer cloths, or other crap that televangelists peddle, it'd be a whole other story.

Let's see, I've seen scare-tactics being used by a toy-company (http://cynicsage.blogspot.com/2007/08/battle-for-contents-of-evangelical.html) to sell their products to Christian parents, action-adventure novels (http://cynicsage.blogspot.com/2007/06/pimping-purity-part-3-ooh-tek-youve.html) being marketed as part of a series of books meant to help men overcome pornography-addiction and save their marriages, a music cd that is supposed to help you remain sexually pure (http://www.winthiswarcd.com/home.shtml) (although to me it seems to be simply a way for up-and-coming Christian artists to get their work out there (http://www.winthiswarcd.com/music/RestVideo.mov)) and churches paying Christian publishing companies to send "sexual-purity kits" (that contain, among other things, books that say both masturbation and nocturnal emissions that involve dreams of women cause "spiritual death", and annotated "study" Bibles that adress such hot-button theological issues as "is it alright to have lunch with a co-worker of the opposite sex?") to soldiers deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan (http://cynicsage.blogspot.com/2007/05/pimping-purity-part-2-purity-is-hell.html).

[Sheepdog]

Please please please please don't tempt me to start on a rant about the Christian culture. :argh:

Oh please God! Forgive us for our foolish representation of You.

[Cynic Sage]

Please please please please don't tempt me to start on a rant about the Christian culture. :argh:


Hey man, I'm the Cynic Sage.

I rant so you don't have to.:teeth:

[Sheepdog]

:thumb:

[Chocobear]

During one of his sermons, my pastor explained that the reason Jesus was so angry was because the people who were selling things in the temple were interfering with the others' ability to worship God. Can you imagine going to church one day and having some greedy person shoving his merchandise in your face, when all you want to do was worship the Lord, learn from His Word, and enjoy fellowship with your brothers and sisters in Christ? I'd probably be tempted to drag that person out of the sanctuary by his ear and literally give him the boot!

[Kelp]

Yeah, that sounds right :yes: