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onefour1
01-18-2014, 11:37 AM
John 9:1-3
1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.

2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

This verse reveals the religious thought of the day by the Apostles. They believed that man existed prior to being born into this world. Thus they wondered if the man was born blind due to prior sins before his birth. Another verse that teaches of the pre-mortal existence of man is in Revelation chapter 12:

Revelation 12:7-11

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

This verse tells us that Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and his angels in heaven. Eventually Michael and his angels overcame the dragon and the dragon, who is the devil, and his angels were cast out of heaven into this earth. Verse 11 is the interesting one. It tells us that "they" overcame Satan by the blood of the Lamb, and the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Who are they that are being spoken of? Is it not Michael and his angels? Is it not the brethren who are mentioned in verse 10? Was it not the devil and his angels who were warring with Michael and his angels and who accused them before God day and night? So in heaven Michael and his angels prevailed against Satan and his angels. Satan was cast into the earth along with his followers. But in verse 11 it states that "they", who are Michael and his angels, overcame Satan by the blood of the Lamb and that they loved not their lives unto the death. Is it not mortal man that must use the blood of the Lamb to overcome the sins of this world. Is it not mortal man who is subject to death? This verse is telling us that Michael and his angels who existed in heaven and fought against the dragon eventually came to this earth as mortal men and had to overcome Satan by the blood of Christ and by their testimony. They loved Christ even more than their lives and suffered a mortal death. Do you not see that those who come to this earth and receive bodies were once valiant spirits in the pre-mortal existence and were numbered among those who fought with Michael against the dragon. Satan and his angels never received bodies. This is why Satan and his angels seek to have bodies, even if it is the bodies of swine, as shown in the 5th chapter of Mark. Thus there was a pre-mortal existence and having a mortal body and eventually a resurrected body is a very good thing.

onefour1
01-18-2014, 11:37 AM
Isaiah 14:12-16
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

There are many differing opinions as to what type of being Satan, the devil, also known as Lucifer is. But the bible in this verse makes it clear that Lucifer was a son of the morning who fell from his heavenly state. Verse 16 above tells us that he is a man. We know that Satan was in the earth from the days of Adam and Eve. So the fall of Lucifer must have occurred prior to the temptations of Adam and Eve by Satan. We also read about the fall of Satan in Revelation 12.

Revelation 12:7-10
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

This verse tells us that Satan warred with Michael and his angels in heaven and because of his warring with others he was cast out of heaven into the earth.

A revelation given to the Prophet Joseph Smith and recorded in LDS scrpture tells us more about this war in heaven and why Satan was cast out of heaven:

Moses 4:1-4
1 And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.

2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.

3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;

4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.

These verses tell us that Satan had his own plan for redeeming mankiind. His plan was to take away the free will of mankind and force them to be obedient to his will. He sought to have the power of God the father and thought his plan was greater than the Father's plan. The Father rejected this plan because it was the will of the Father that mankind have free will so that they could become good beings in and of themseves without being forced to be so. The Father knew that if force was used, then his children would not progress and become better beings. When the Father rejected Satan's plan, Satan rebelled and tried to get as many souls to follow after him and turn away from the Father's plan. According to Revelations 12:4, Satan drew away 1/3 of the hosts of heaven. These were the angels of Satan who were cast out with him, for God cast Satan and his angels out of heaven into this earth. Another LDS verse that talks about this subject is:

Doctrine and Covenants 29:36
36 And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil—for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency;

In LDS thought, we believe that all who have come to this earth and received a body were among those who fought valiantly against Lucifer in the pre-mortal existence. We believe that we were among the angels who were on the side of Michael before the foundations of this earth. Satan was at one time a son of God but rebelled against the Father and was cast down into the earth. He is fallen from heaven but still is trying to capture followers out of hatred for the Father. He is a man as the verse above in Isaiah tells us. He, nor his angels, were allowed to receive a body but are personages of spirit. He is still trying to lead us away from our loving and kind Heavenly Father.

Catman
01-18-2014, 12:09 PM
onefour1, one at a time in Biblical Languages 301.

JohnnyP
01-18-2014, 01:35 PM
John 9:1-3
This verse reveals the religious thought of the day by the Apostles. They believed that man existed prior to being born into this world. Thus they wondered if the man was born blind due to prior sins before his birth.

Some could have believed he was resurrected, or even reincarnated. Insufficient to show they suggested pre-mortal existence.


Another verse that teaches of the pre-mortal existence of man is in Revelation chapter 12:

Revelation 12:7-11
This verse tells us that Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and his angels in heaven. Eventually Michael and his angels overcame the dragon and the dragon, who is the devil, and his angels were cast out of heaven into this earth. Verse 11 is the interesting one. It tells us that "they" overcame Satan by the blood of the Lamb, and the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Does not suggest that saints used to be angels, rather two different struggles: angels throwing Satan into earth, and saints in the earth overcoming sin. It's like if Satan was an Axis power of Germany in WWII, and angels and saints were Allied powers of USA and Soviet Union. We understand that Allies fought Axis on different fronts, rather than suggesting USA used to be Soviet, or vice-versa.


Isaiah 14:12-16
There are many differing opinions as to what type of being Satan, the devil, also known as Lucifer is. But the bible in this verse makes it clear that Lucifer was a son of the morning who fell from his heavenly state. Verse 16 above tells us that he is a man. We know that Satan was in the earth from the days of Adam and Eve. So the fall of Lucifer must have occurred prior to the temptations of Adam and Eve by Satan. We also read about the fall of Satan in Revelation 12.

This simply tells us that Satan was the power behind the King of Babylon, as in Ezekiel 28 Satan was the power behind the King of Tyre. As in Revelation 13 that Satan is the power behind other Gentile kingdoms of the Beast.

While the fall of the Serpent himself took place when he tempted Eve. All indications are that the Serpent was a beast of the field, a different angelic creature like winged cherubim of Ezekiel, never a man. Only a power behind evil men.

onefour1
01-18-2014, 02:14 PM
The Isaiah verse indicates that Satan was a man. The blind man was not resurrected because Christ is taught to be the first to resurrect so he couldn't have been resurrected yet. The bible teaches resurrection and not reincarnation so it is highly doubtful since resurrected beings are immortal and never die again. It is LDS belief that angels are men who have belonged to this earth, or who currently belong to the earth, or who will in the future belong to this earth. Saints are believed to be the true followers of Jesus.

Rev 22:8-9
8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Gen 19:1,5
1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.


Doctrine and Covenants 130:5

5 I answer, Yes. But there are no angels who minister to this earth but those who do belong or have belonged to it.


Acts 9:32

32 And it came to pass, as Peter passed throughout all quarters, he came down also to the saints which dwelt at Lydda.

JohnnyP
01-18-2014, 02:31 PM
The Isaiah verse indicates that Satan was a man.

The Isaiah verse is about the King of Babylon, are you suggesting Satan was the King of Babylon? Satan is merely an evil power behind some Gentile kingdoms, including Beast Kingdoms.


Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast...

Since scripture and history indicate 7 Heads of the Beast range from Alexander's Kingdom up to Crusader Kingdoms, which I'll eventually get to in an Eschatology thread, your suggestion doesn't really work.

Besides that, it ignores Genesis 2 which says the Serpent (also Satan Revelation 20:2) is a beast of the field. Which where in Ezekiel 28 he is called a cherub, it likens Satan to creatures of Ezekiel 1. Not an earthly animal or man, but like an angel.


The blind man was not resurrected because Christ is taught to be the first to resurrect so he couldn't have been resurrected yet.

Lazarus?


The bible teaches resurrection and not reincarnation so it is highly doubtful since resurrected beings are immortal and never die again.

However beliefs in reincarnation do exist in Judaism, some disciples may have held those views, it's not clear.


Belief in reincarnation is also one way to explain the traditional Jewish belief that every Jewish soul in history was present at Sinai and agreed to the covenant with G-d. -Jewfaq (http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm)

JB DoulosChristou
01-18-2014, 04:44 PM
There are several different mostly independent arguments to the same conclusion being made here, it seems. Some rely on LDS scripture, so we'll bypass those aspects for the moment.

There is a significant problem with the argument that onefour1 makes here from John 9:1-3, and it is the same problem that affects the vast majority of overly blithe LDS treatments of this passage. There is actually a more likely conceptual background that we can posit. We know from extant Jewish literature that there was speculation among Jews of that era that it was possible to sin in utero. For instance, Genesis Rabbah 63.3, expounding Genesis 25:22 in light of Psalm 58:3, portrays Esau as wickedly trying to conquer Jacob while they both were in Rebekah's womb. It is this sort of view, as well as the instinctual urge to find someone to blame for the affliction, that underlies the disciples' response in John 9:2. Notably, Jesus denies that the blind man's affliction is the result of prenatal sin of any sort, including premortal (and contrast this with the ways in which premortal morality has functioned in LDS discourse in basically the very way that Jesus expressly rejected).

The cases from each of the other prooftexts that onefour1 uses is even weaker. Revelation 12:7-11, first of all, is quite problematic in terms of its chronology, which is no easy matter to determine in the course of an apocalypse. onefour1 must make the exegetical case that the casting down of the dragon and his angels is even a premortal event at all here! Perhaps it is, but perhaps it isn't. Furthermore, onefour1 assumes that the angels who prevail militarily over the dragon in Revelation 12:7 are identical to the believer-martyrs who overcome the dragon-as-accuser in Revelation 12:10-11, which occurs specifically by "the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony" (v. 11). onefour1 attempts to ease over the disconnect by positing that these are two separate phases of conflict against the same antagonist by precisely the same parties - but on what basis is the connection made? On only the word "they" - which has a separate antecedent introduced before it! Clearly, this argument is not a persuasive one.

Finally, onefour1 offers Isaiah 14:16 - but this is also weak. It is not at all clear that Isaiah 14 is even intended to be about Satan at all; the KJV rendering of helel as a proper name 'Lucifer' has been famously excoriated. Consequently, commentators have largely accepted, from what I have seen, that the referent of the passage is precisely whom the literary context would indicate: the Babylonian king. And certainly he is an ish, a "man". But even if Isaiah 14 were about Satan, referring to him as a "man" (ish) in this sense would hardly be sufficient to carry the weight of the point unless we had reason to think that, when ancient Jewish writers used these sorts of terms of supernatural beings, they meant to literally classify them as members of the human species. This does not seem to be the case, judging from what is available of extant Jewish literature from the Second Temple era or earlier; angels are not generally portrayed as members of the human species at all in such literature (save for rare later specific occasions, as with the exaltation of Enoch to Metatron, but that is of no import here).

Thus, none of these passages, nor even their combination, actually gives us reason to accept the notion of a premortal human existence, much less a connection between it and the War in Heaven. Quite to the contrary, the Gospel of John several times suggests that humans, as a general rule, take their initial origin here, as contrasted with Jesus. Only Jesus is "from above", whereas others are "from beneath" and hence lack access to the heavenly realm from whence Jesus came and to which he returns (John 8:23). Jesus exists eternally prior to the origination of Abraham's very existence (John 8:58). Jesus is the only man who "came down from heaven", which is why no others have the power to ascend there (John 3:13). Jesus is uniquely "from above" and "cometh from heaven" and hence is "above all", whereas others are "out of the earth" (John 3:31). Quite similarly, Paul avers that human existence is first earthly, and only afterward heavenly (1 Corinthians 15:46-48), save in the case of "the Lord from heaven" (1 Corinthians 15:47).

onefour1
01-18-2014, 05:26 PM
We believe that there is a dualism going on in Isaiah 14 and that the King of Babylon is likened unto Satan, who is the King of spiritual Babylon. We believe that Lucifer, spoken of in these verses is Satan, and that he was a Son of the Morning who fell from Heaven. The LDS Old Testament Student Manual says:


(14-14) Isaiah 14:12–15 . Who Was “Lucifer, Son of the Morning”?

Isaiah again used dualism. Chapters 13 and 14 describe the downfall of Babylon, both of Babylon as an empire and of Babylon as the symbol of the world (see D&C 133:14 ). Thus, most scholars think “Lucifer, son of the morning” is the king of Babylon, probably Nebuchadnezzar. In the symbolic use of Babylon , (Babylon as spiritual wickedness and the kingdom of Satan), Lucifer is Satan. This interpretation is confirmed in latter-day revelation (see D&C 76:26–8 ). Satan and Babylon’s prince (both represented by Lucifer in this passage) aspire to take kingly glory to themselves, but in fact will be thrust into hell where there will be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Compare Isaiah 14:13–14 with Moses 4:1–4 , where Lucifer’s conditions for saving all men are given. What adds to the power of the imagery is the fact that the word congregation ( v. 13 ) is translated by Keil and Delitzsch as the “assembly of gods” ( Commentary, 7:1:312).

In still another example of Isaiah’s beautiful dualism, even the kings of the world lie in their tombs (house) in respect (see vv. 18–19 ), but Babylon’s king was to be cast aside and trodden under foot. This reward was literally visited upon the city of the Chaldees, and though Nebuchadnezzar was certainly buried in great splendor, there is no grave found for him today in the ruins of Babylon. Think for a moment of Satan’s “grave.” Never having received a body, he shall never have a tomb or monument of any kind, though he was king and ruler of the great world-wide and history-wide empire of spiritual Babylon. No wonder the kings of the earth, who, though wicked in mortality, could still inherit the telestial kingdom, would marvel at his demise.


It truly was Satan who fell from heaven:

Luke 10:18
18. And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Revelation 12:8-9
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

The literal King of Babylon was not cast out of heaven. But its spiritual king was.

JohnnyP
01-18-2014, 07:45 PM
We believe that there is a dualism going on in Isaiah 14 and that the King of Babylon is likened unto Satan, who is the King of spiritual Babylon. We believe that Lucifer, spoken of in these verses is Satan, and that he was a Son of the Morning who fell from Heaven. The LDS Old Testament Student Manual says:

It truly was Satan who fell from heaven:

Luke 10:18
18. And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Revelation 12:8-9
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

The literal King of Babylon was not cast out of heaven. But its spiritual king was.

I agree with part of it. The evil spiritual leadership of Morning Star/Satan in Isaiah 14:12 is contrasted with righteous spiritual leadership of Morning Star/Jesus in Revelation 22:16.

But it doesn't mean Satan became (or was) a man, it just means Satan wasn't allowed in Heaven anymore.

JB DoulosChristou
01-20-2014, 09:12 AM
Even if it were true that Isaiah 14 has some sort of dual meaning of both the spiritual entity Satan and the human entity the Babylonian monarch, it would need to be established then, for onefour1's case to go through, that the use of the term ish has particular relevance to the former and is not simply an aspect of the text that refers to the latter. As onefour1 admits, on this account, some aspects of the text only literally refer to one of the two entities reputedly in view - so a further argument is needed to show that this is not the case with ish, just as onefour1 himself argues is the case with "fallen from heaven".

But, of course, it needs to be exegetically demonstrated that Isaiah 14 does originally have Satan as a referent. Given the nature of prophetic discourse, and the ways in which, in Jewish usage, it tended to associate geopolitical realities with heavenly imagery (thus, references to stars falling from heaven frequently denote the collapse of the geopolitical order), the simple phrase "falling from heaven" does not go far enough to indicate that Satan was an original referent of the text, even if the same phrase was later picked up and applied to Satan in a grander sense in Luke 10:18. More exegetical legwork would be needed here. I note that, of the few commentaries I've had time and opportunity this morning to survey on this passage, all of them appear to be in steadfast agreement that there is no actual reference to Satan in Isaiah 14 - one commentator notes that "it cannot be said that these verses refer to him [Satan]" (Oswalt), while another makes a more blunt reference to "the unfounded view that 14:12 describes the fall of Satan" (Smith) - but rather that Isaiah is referencing some Canaanite mythological themes of divine conflict with which his hearers would have been familiar (as corroborated by other Canaanite motifs in the lament, such as the reference to Mount Zaphon), in order to underscore the absolute outlandishness of the Babylonian king's pride. But this issue, I think, is still less pertinent an obstacle than the one I noted in the previous paragraph, and the other ones I noted in my previous post; one could accept, as many orthodox Christians do, that Satan is in some manner in view in Isaiah 14, and still find very serious problems with onefour1's argument that it demonstrates that Satan is human.

onefour1
01-20-2014, 01:46 PM
Isaiah 14:12-16
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

These verses all interconnect with the previous verses. Is not the word, "thou" speaking of Lucifer of the previous verse in verse 13? Verse 14 is a continuation of verse 13. Isn't the word, "thou" in verse 15 still speaking of Lucifer and that he will be brought down to hell for seeking to exalt himself above the stars of God? Isn't the word, "thee" in verse 16 still speaking of Lucifer after being cast into the pit? I believe these verses are all interconnected and are speaking of the same being mentioned in verse 12.

Bill the Cat
01-20-2014, 01:56 PM
Revelation 12:8-9
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.



SInce this supposedly happened before creation even happened, there would have been no earth to cast satan down to.

onefour1
01-20-2014, 02:16 PM
The earth was created before man was placed on it. My personal belief is that the earth was created prior to the seven days of creation before light was introduced upon it and considered the first day. Since the days of creation could not be counted without the light and the earth existed before the light was introduced, the earth could not have been created in the first day. So the earth could have been around for a long time before the light was introduced upon it. Also it may have taken more time to create the earth than to go through the seven days of creation. That being said, I don't know that there is any reference stating that the war in heaven occurred prior to the creation of the earth.

Cow Poke
01-20-2014, 02:24 PM
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Yes, PRAISE GOD for that!


10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

I believe you are unnecessarily and erroneously forcing a continuation where there is none. There is no reason to believe that "the brethren" here are mortal men who WERE angels fighting in Heaven. The point is that Satan is AGAIN overcome by -- what -- the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony. Christ won a victory on the Cross for all who accept Him.


This verse tells us that Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and his angels in heaven. Eventually Michael and his angels overcame the dragon and the dragon, who is the devil, and his angels were cast out of heaven into this earth.

Yup.


Verse 11 is the interesting one. It tells us that "they"

Yes, "they" -- the brethren who were accused day and night.


overcame Satan by the blood of the Lamb, and the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Yes, the brethren who were accused day and night.


Who are they that are being spoken of? Is it not Michael and his angels?

Yes, it is not Michael and his angels at this point.


Is it not the brethren who are mentioned in verse 10?

It is, indeed, the brethren who were mentioned in verse 10.


Was it not the devil and his angels who were warring with Michael and his angels and who accused them before God day and night?

There was no mention of the "accused them day and night" until "the brethren" were mentioned.


So in heaven Michael and his angels prevailed against Satan and his angels. Satan was cast into the earth along with his followers.

Yes, the angels were cast out.


But in verse 11 it states that "they",

Yes, the "brethren".


who are Michael and his angels, overcame Satan by the blood of the Lamb and that they loved not their lives unto the death.

Only because you, erroneously, in my opinion, run this all together into one event.


Is it not mortal man that must use the blood of the Lamb to overcome the sins of this world.

Use? :huh:


Is it not mortal man who is subject to death?

Certainly


This verse is telling us that Michael and his angels who existed in heaven and fought against the dragon eventually came to this earth as mortal men

No, it doesn't.


and had to overcome Satan by the blood of Christ and by their testimony. They loved Christ even more than their lives and suffered a mortal death.

The "brethren", yes.


Do you not see that those who come to this earth and receive bodies were once valiant spirits in the pre-mortal existence and were numbered among those who fought with Michael against the dragon.

Nope.


Satan and his angels never received bodies.

Agreed - they were disembodied spirits, which is why demons try to POSSESS bodies, and angels do not. :smile:


This is why Satan and his angels seek to have bodies, even if it is the bodies of swine, as shown in the 5th chapter of Mark.

Exactly - because they are disembodied spirits.


Thus there was a pre-mortal existence

Nope.


and having a mortal body and eventually a resurrected body is a very good thing.

For "the brethren", yes, it certainly is.

Jedidiah
01-20-2014, 03:03 PM
CP, since there is no "amen" button yet let this serve as such.

JB DoulosChristou
01-20-2014, 04:16 PM
These verses all interconnect with the previous verses. Is not the word, "thou" speaking of Lucifer of the previous verse in verse 13? Verse 14 is a continuation of verse 13. Isn't the word, "thou" in verse 15 still speaking of Lucifer and that he will be brought down to hell for seeking to exalt himself above the stars of God? Isn't the word, "thee" in verse 16 still speaking of Lucifer after being cast into the pit? I believe these verses are all interconnected and are speaking of the same being mentioned in verse 12.

The problem here is that onefour1 is backing off of the argument he had previously posed. In appealing to the correlated LDS manual covering this passage, he asserted that the text as a whole had a dual referent (the temporal King of Babylon and the "spiritual King of Babylon"), and that while the passage as a whole applied to both referents, individual phrases might apply to one or the other. Thus, on his original account, the passage is about both the Babylonian king and Satan, but the phrase "fallen from heaven" only applies literally to the latter. Hence, I pressed the question as to how, on that same account, one can be sure that ish does not only apply literally to the former.

Now, however, onefour1's account shifts: the sole referent of Isaiah 14:12-16 becomes Satan on his new account. This is very seriously problematic, however: there is a continuity of referent through later verses that indisputably refer to the temporal King of Babylon - see, for instance, Isaiah 14:17-20. Following onefour1's new logic, aren't verses 17, 19, and 20 just as interconnected with verses 12-16 as verse 16 is with verse 12? But verses 17-20 are utterly incoherent if their reference is restricted purely to Satan. Onefour1's argument, then, collapses even more quickly on his new account than it did on his previous one.

Note also that onefour1's points here do not even begin to address any of what I said about Satan not actually being in view here at all. And without a stronger, more exegetically rigorous case for that, onefour1's argument is a castle floating in the clouds.


The earth was created before man was placed on it. My personal belief is that the earth was created prior to the seven days of creation before light was introduced upon it and considered the first day. Since the days of creation could not be counted without the light and the earth existed before the light was introduced, the earth could not have been created in the first day. So the earth could have been around for a long time before the light was introduced upon it. Also it may have taken more time to create the earth than to go through the seven days of creation. That being said, I don't know that there is any reference stating that the war in heaven occurred prior to the creation of the earth.

On the contrary, the chronology presented in the Book of Abraham seems to suggest that the War in Heaven transpired before the creation of the earth. In Abraham 3, wherein the premortal council is described, the creation of the earth is mentioned in future tense: "we will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell" (Abraham 3:24). Next in sequence in the Book of Abraham, the Father selects the premortal Jesus over the one who became Satan (Abraham 3:27), and so Satan rebels and leads others away with him (Abraham 3:28; cf. Revelation 12:4, 8; Moses 4:3). Only after this do the Gods create the earth (Abraham 4:1ff.), following the template of Genesis 1 - including Genesis 1:1. I know of no text in the uniquely LDS canon that allows for a significant temporal gap between the commencement of the rebellion and the War in Heaven. As Bill noted, then, this does seem to cause a bit of a difficulty in the Book of Abraham chronology - perhaps not insuperable, but one that merits treatment nevertheless.

RumTumTugger
01-20-2014, 05:54 PM
CP, since there is no "amen" button yet let this serve as such.

let me second that Amen

Bill the Cat
01-21-2014, 07:28 AM
On the contrary, the chronology presented in the Book of Abraham seems to suggest that the War in Heaven transpired before the creation of the earth. In Abraham 3, wherein the premortal council is described, the creation of the earth is mentioned in future tense: "we will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell" (Abraham 3:24). Next in sequence in the Book of Abraham, the Father selects the premortal Jesus over the one who became Satan (Abraham 3:27), and so Satan rebels and leads others away with him (Abraham 3:28; cf. Revelation 12:4, 8; Moses 4:3). Only after this do the Gods create the earth (Abraham 4:1ff.), following the template of Genesis 1 - including Genesis 1:1. I know of no text in the uniquely LDS canon that allows for a significant temporal gap between the commencement of the rebellion and the War in Heaven. As Bill noted, then, this does seem to cause a bit of a difficulty in the Book of Abraham chronology - perhaps not insuperable, but one that merits treatment nevertheless.

Thanks JB. You beat me to posting the chronology of the BOA account of creation. The missionaries that I asked about this very subject told me they would have to get back to me on it, and they never returned.

Bill the Cat
01-23-2014, 10:26 AM
The earth was created before man was placed on it. My personal belief is that the earth was created prior to the seven days of creation before light was introduced upon it and considered the first day. Since the days of creation could not be counted without the light and the earth existed before the light was introduced, the earth could not have been created in the first day. So the earth could have been around for a long time before the light was introduced upon it. Also it may have taken more time to create the earth than to go through the seven days of creation. That being said, I don't know that there is any reference stating that the war in heaven occurred prior to the creation of the earth.

And yet, satan appeared before God in Job despite the result of the supposed "premortal war in heaven" being that there was no more place for him there...

Sparko
01-23-2014, 10:34 AM
If the LDS believe in an endless chain of Gods and their spirit children, then how could there be a time without light? The LDS church believes that the universe and matter have always existed, so previous God's planets would have stars and light would be throughout the universe.

JB DoulosChristou
01-23-2014, 12:20 PM
If the LDS believe in an endless chain of Gods and their spirit children, then how could there be a time without light? The LDS church believes that the universe and matter have always existed, so previous God's planets would have stars and light would be throughout the universe.

It sounds like onefour1 is working with a form of gap theory in which the language of Genesis 1 is both local and phenomenal - so, on his interpretation, Genesis 1:3 isn't the creation of light but only its penetration to the surface of this earth (hence his frequent use of the phrase "introduced upon [the earth]").

onefour1
01-23-2014, 09:24 PM
The problem here is that onefour1 is backing off of the argument he had previously posed. In appealing to the correlated LDS manual covering this passage, he asserted that the text as a whole had a dual referent (the temporal King of Babylon and the "spiritual King of Babylon"), and that while the passage as a whole applied to both referents, individual phrases might apply to one or the other. Thus, on his original account, the passage is about both the Babylonian king and Satan, but the phrase "fallen from heaven" only applies literally to the latter. Hence, I pressed the question as to how, on that same account, one can be sure that ish does not only apply literally to the former.

Now, however, onefour1's account shifts: the sole referent of Isaiah 14:12-16 becomes Satan on his new account. This is very seriously problematic, however: there is a continuity of referent through later verses that indisputably refer to the temporal King of Babylon - see, for instance, Isaiah 14:17-20. Following onefour1's new logic, aren't verses 17, 19, and 20 just as interconnected with verses 12-16 as verse 16 is with verse 12? But verses 17-20 are utterly incoherent if their reference is restricted purely to Satan. Onefour1's argument, then, collapses even more quickly on his new account than it did on his previous one.

Note also that onefour1's points here do not even begin to address any of what I said about Satan not actually being in view here at all. And without a stronger, more exegetically rigorous case for that, onefour1's argument is a castle floating in the clouds.



On the contrary, the chronology presented in the Book of Abraham seems to suggest that the War in Heaven transpired before the creation of the earth. In Abraham 3, wherein the premortal council is described, the creation of the earth is mentioned in future tense: "we will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell" (Abraham 3:24). Next in sequence in the Book of Abraham, the Father selects the premortal Jesus over the one who became Satan (Abraham 3:27), and so Satan rebels and leads others away with him (Abraham 3:28; cf. Revelation 12:4, 8; Moses 4:3). Only after this do the Gods create the earth (Abraham 4:1ff.), following the template of Genesis 1 - including Genesis 1:1. I know of no text in the uniquely LDS canon that allows for a significant temporal gap between the commencement of the rebellion and the War in Heaven. As Bill noted, then, this does seem to cause a bit of a difficulty in the Book of Abraham chronology - perhaps not insuperable, but one that merits treatment nevertheless.

I am not backing off any argument. The verses I quoted:

Isaiah 14:12-16

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

There is a dual reference in the chapter and this is the reason that a parallel with Lucifer is made. But this is not backing off from say that the above scripture is referring to Satan, Lucifer, the Devil. It is referring to him and him alone. Verse 17 also applies to the Satanic reference but from 18, 19, and 20 do not refer to Satan. So JB DoulosChristou is quite mistaken about what I believe about the verse. But JB DoulosChristou doesn't think that any of these verses refer to Satan. He believes that the King of Babylon fell from heaven. But according to JB DoulosChristou, man did not have a pre-mortal existence so how could he fall from heaven? Do you really think this is only referring to the King of Babylon? Was his name Lucifer? To Isaiah, Satan was clearly in view. I don't know how you can't see it.

Abraham 4:1-5

1 And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth.

2 And the earth, after it was formed, was empty and desolate, because they had not formed anything but the earth; and darkness reigned upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of the Gods was brooding upon the face of the waters.

Here the earth is created but no light was upon the earth and no light was yet divided to create night and day

3 And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light; and there was light.

4 And they (the Gods) comprehended the light, for it was bright; and they divided the light, or caused it to be divided, from the darkness.

5 And the Gods called the light Day, and the darkness they called Night. And it came to pass that from the evening until morning they called night; and from the morning until the evening they called day; and this was the first, or the beginning, of that which they called day and night.

Here the light is brought upon the earth. This is after the earth was created. This light was divided from darkness which was the beginning of night and day. So the first night and day were after the time God created the earth. This would mean that the 7 days of creation are outside the time when the earth was created. This same logic can be followed in Genesis 1

The only verses in Abraham up to this point that even mentions the war in heaven are:

Abraham 3:27-28

27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.

28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

The war in heaven certainly could have started before the earth was created, but by the time Lucifer was cast out of heaven into the earth, the earth certainly existed. Otherwise these verses would be false:

Revelation 12:13

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Revelation 12:9

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


We know that Satan, Lucifer the devil was in the garden of Eden to tempt Adam and Eve. So we know that he had already been cast out of heaven into the earth. He certainly hasn't been back to heaven since, so when do you think he was cast out? The book of Abraham does not contradict any statement I have made and Satan most certainly could have been cast out after the earth had been created.

onefour1
01-23-2014, 09:34 PM
Yes, PRAISE GOD for that!



I believe you are unnecessarily and erroneously forcing a continuation where there is none. There is no reason to believe that "the brethren" here are mortal men who WERE angels fighting in Heaven. The point is that Satan is AGAIN overcome by -- what -- the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony. Christ won a victory on the Cross for all who accept Him.



Yup.



Yes, "they" -- the brethren who were accused day and night.



Yes, the brethren who were accused day and night.



Yes, it is not Michael and his angels at this point.



It is, indeed, the brethren who were mentioned in verse 10.



There was no mention of the "accused them day and night" until "the brethren" were mentioned.



Yes, the angels were cast out.



Yes, the "brethren".



Only because you, erroneously, in my opinion, run this all together into one event.



Use? :huh:



Certainly



No, it doesn't.



The "brethren", yes.



Nope.



Agreed - they were disembodied spirits, which is why demons try to POSSESS bodies, and angels do not. :smile:



Exactly - because they are disembodied spirits.



Nope.



For "the brethren", yes, it certainly is.

So I take it that you do not agree that the "Brethren" are the same as "Michael and his angels". Well, who were the brethren who existed in heaven with who the Satan accused them before God day and night? Who were the brethren who came down and overcame Satan by the blood of the Lamb? Satan certainly wasn't accusing them on earth before God. Who was Satan warring with in heaven? Was it not Michael and his Angels? It may not spell it out in the language of a two year old, but I think it is pretty safe to assume that those with whom he was warring with in heaven were those being accused before God day and night.

onefour1
01-23-2014, 09:36 PM
And yet, satan appeared before God in Job despite the result of the supposed "premortal war in heaven" being that there was no more place for him there...

Did this occur in heaven?

onefour1
01-23-2014, 09:38 PM
If the LDS believe in an endless chain of Gods and their spirit children, then how could there be a time without light? The LDS church believes that the universe and matter have always existed, so previous God's planets would have stars and light would be throughout the universe.

Not saying there wasn't light before the light mentioned in Genesis 1.

Cow Poke
01-23-2014, 09:40 PM
So I take it that you do not agree that the "Brethren" are the same as "Michael and his angels".

Correct.


Well, who were the brethren who existed in heaven with who the Satan accused them before God day and night? Who were the brethren who came down and overcame Satan by the blood of the Lamb?

You're doing it again... you're mixing it all together.


Satan certainly wasn't accusing them on earth before God. Who was Satan warring with in heaven? Was it not Michael and his Angels? It may not spell it out in the language of a two year old, but I think it is pretty safe to assume that those with whom he was warring with in heaven were those being accused before God day and night.

I really don't see any point in discussing this with you. You are not allowing the Scripture to speak - you are bending it to fit your particular viewpoint.

If this "pre-mortal existence" thing is such an important doctrine, why do you have to work so hard to force it on the scripture? It's a scam, 141, that Smith came up with, along with plural marriages and his bogus claim that God said Emma would be destroyed if she didn't stop opposing his indiscretions.

Cow Poke
01-23-2014, 09:50 PM
Well, who were the brethren who existed in heaven with who the Satan accused them before God day and night?

Look, 141....
[10]*And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. [11]*And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

The blood of the lamb had not yet been shed when Satan was cast out of Heaven --- the "brethren" are those who subsequently accepted Christ, and suffered for it.


Who were the brethren who came down and overcame Satan by the blood of the Lamb?

Christ followers.


Satan certainly wasn't accusing them on earth before God.

Nobody made that claim.


Who was Satan warring with in heaven? Was it not Michael and his Angels?

The Bible says it was, so I believe it was, indeed.


It may not spell it out in the language of a two year old, but I think it is pretty safe to assume that those with whom he was warring with in heaven were those being accused before God day and night.

That's a bit snitty, 141, and not necessary --- a two year old? :glare:

It's talking about two separate events. Satan was cast out of Heaven, along with his followers, and was FURTHER defeated by Christ's sinless death on Calvary's cross. Those who follow CHRIST (the brethren) stand in the victory of Christ's resurrection.

onefour1
01-23-2014, 10:01 PM
It sounds like onefour1 is working with a form of gap theory in which the language of Genesis 1 is both local and phenomenal - so, on his interpretation, Genesis 1:3 isn't the creation of light but only its penetration to the surface of this earth (hence his frequent use of the phrase "introduced upon [the earth]").

What I am saying about the light in Genesis 1 is that the Light mentioned in the creation of the first day is not the light of the sun that we see daily. Our sun was not placed in relation to this earth until the 4th day of creation. So my conclusion is that the light of the first day is not our sun. It is another light. I am saying that the earth was not placed in its current location in relation to our current sun, moon, and stars until the 4th day of creation. So if the light of the first day is not our sun, then it must be another source of light. It could be another orb that is a star giving light to it. It could be the light by which God counts his days and nights. The verses in Abraham 3 and II Peter 3:

Abraham 3:4

4 And the Lord said unto me, by the Urim and Thummim, that Kolob was after the manner of the Lord, according to its times and seasons in the revolutions thereof; that one revolution was a day unto the Lord, after his manner of reckoning, it being one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest. This is the reckoning of the Lord’s time, according to the reckoning of Kolob.

2 Peter 3:8

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

These verses tell us that a thousand years are equivalent to a day with the Lord. Abraham 5 tells us:

Abraham 5:13

13 But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the time that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die. Now I, Abraham, saw that it was after the Lord’s time, which was after the time of Kolob; for as yet the Gods had not appointed unto Adam his reckoning.

So it is LDS belief that the 7 days of creation were after the Lord's time. For the commandment to not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil came after the 7 days of creation. So we believe that the 7 days were 7 thousand years. But the earth was not created within that time frame as stated in an earlier post. It was created before the light was set for the first day and the darkness was divided from the light and called day and night.

JohnnyP
01-23-2014, 10:07 PM
So I take it that you do not agree that the "Brethren" are the same as "Michael and his angels". Well, who were the brethren who existed in heaven with who the Satan accused them before God day and night? Who were the brethren who came down and overcame Satan by the blood of the Lamb? Satan certainly wasn't accusing them on earth before God. Who was Satan warring with in heaven? Was it not Michael and his Angels? It may not spell it out in the language of a two year old, but I think it is pretty safe to assume that those with whom he was warring with in heaven were those being accused before God day and night.

These verses may be helpful to compare between men, angels, and Satan:


Zechariah 3:1-2 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?


Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Zechariah 3:4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.


Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

onefour1
01-23-2014, 10:10 PM
Look, 141....
[10]*And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. [11]*And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

The blood of the lamb had not yet been shed when Satan was cast out of Heaven --- the "brethren" are those who subsequently accepted Christ, and suffered for it.



Christ followers.



Nobody made that claim.



The Bible says it was, so I believe it was, indeed.



That's a bit snitty, 141, and not necessary --- a two year old? :glare:

It's talking about two separate events. Satan was cast out of Heaven, along with his followers, and was FURTHER defeated by Christ's sinless death on Calvary's cross. Those who follow CHRIST (the brethren) stand in the victory of Christ's resurrection.

Sorry if you thought I was being snitty. What I meant was that not everything is spelled out in scripture in a way that a two year old child could understand it. I think some verses require a lot of contemplation, prayer, and study but the meaning is there.

Regarding those who came before Christ's Atonement, are they not also saved by the blood of the Lamb? We believe that all those who have lived on the earth were in need of the atonement even if they were born before the coming of Christ.

Cow Poke
01-23-2014, 10:18 PM
Sorry if you thought I was being snitty. What I meant was that not everything is spelled out in scripture in a way that a two year child could understand it. I think some verse require a lot of contemplation, prayer, and study but the meaning is there.

Yes, the meaning is there, but not what you're claiming. :smile:


Regarding those who came before Christ's Atonement, are they not also saved by the blood of the Lamb?

Their faith is counted as righteousness. Talking about humans, not angels.


We believe that all those who have lived on the earth were in need of the atonement even if they were born before the coming of Christ.

Yes, we do. :smile: But we don't get baptized in a misguided attempt to apply that baptism to THEM. Their faith is counted as righteousness. (Romans 4)

Bill the Cat
01-24-2014, 09:08 AM
Did this occur in heaven?

Absolutely. Scripture tells us that the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord. This is done in the heavenly realm, not on earth, as also noted in 1 Enoch.

Bill the Cat
01-24-2014, 09:43 AM
Regarding those who came before Christ's Atonement, are they not also saved by the blood of the Lamb? We believe that all those who have lived on the earth were in need of the atonement even if they were born before the coming of Christ.

But the casting out of satan happened, according to you, BEFORE the fall of man, so, this statement is irrelivant.

Bill the Cat
01-24-2014, 10:00 AM
Ok, 141, when did this happen?


Rev 12:1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;
Rev 12:2 and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.

onefour1
01-24-2014, 05:52 PM
Absolutely. Scripture tells us that the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord. This is done in the heavenly realm, not on earth, as also noted in 1 Enoch.

Hello Bill! Good to see you again. LDS believe that the "sons of God" are those who are true believers of God. And "sons of men" refers to those who are not. So when the sons of God married the daughters of men, they were marrying outside their faith which would cause them to be led astray at times by their spouses. We don't believe it refers to beings in heaven.

onefour1
01-24-2014, 06:08 PM
But the casting out of satan happened, according to you, BEFORE the fall of man, so, this statement is irrelivant.

I'm not making the connection on this one. We believe that the atonement of Christ was instituted before the foundation of the earth:

1 Peter 1:19-20

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

We believe that in the pre-mortal existence, Christ was foreordained to be the Savior of all men who would come down upon the earth and take upon them mortality and receive a body. So all those from the days of Adam to the end of the world need to find their salvation in Christ Jesus. Revelations is stating that the brethren came down, whom I believe were Michael and his angels, who were accused before God day and night and overcame Satan by the blood of the Lamb and by their testimony and loved not their lives unto the death. Not sure what your point is?

onefour1
01-24-2014, 06:23 PM
Ok, 141, when did this happen?


Rev 12:1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;
Rev 12:2 and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.

We believe that a great sign in the heaven appeared unto John the Revelator. He saw a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars which represents the Kingdom of God on the earth and the crown represents his twelve tribes of Israel/and also the 12 apostles. The woman was with child and was in pain to give birth which represents the Savior of mankind to come forth out of the Kingdom of God.

JohnnyP
01-24-2014, 11:26 PM
But the casting out of satan happened, according to you, BEFORE the fall of man, so, this statement is irrelivant.


I'm not making the connection on this one.


We believe that a great sign in the heaven appeared unto John the Revelator. He saw a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars which represents the Kingdom of God on the earth and the crown represents his twelve tribes of Israel/and also the 12 apostles. The woman was with child and was in pain to give birth which represents the Savior of mankind to come forth out of the Kingdom of God.

I'm confused, are you saying that the Woman gave birth to Jesus in the 1st century, and agreeing that Michael fought Satan after that?

Or are you saying that the Woman gave birth to Jesus before the foundations of this earth, and Michael fought Satan back then, casting him to the Garden, long before the 1st century? The latter is what you seem to say here:


We believe that we were among the angels who were on the side of Michael before the foundations of this earth. Satan was at one time a son of God but rebelled against the Father and was cast down into the earth. He is fallen from heaven but still is trying to capture followers out of hatred for the Father.


We know that Satan, Lucifer the devil was in the garden of Eden to tempt Adam and Eve. So we know that he had already been cast out of heaven into the earth. He certainly hasn't been back to heaven since, so when do you think he was cast out? The book of Abraham does not contradict any statement I have made and Satan most certainly could have been cast out after the earth had been created.

I believe the Garden is in a heavenly dimension not an earthly dimension, where dimensions may exist together in the same locations such as near an earthly Eden, but where the heavenly dimension isn't accessible unless God allows it. Further as I said earlier I don't believe Satan was ever cast down to the Garden, I believe he was created as a cherub in the Garden to be one of the helpers to Adam in Genesis 2, and has access to it until Michael casts him out into the earth, as Adam was cast out of the Garden into the earth.

Bill the Cat
01-25-2014, 05:43 AM
We believe that a great sign in the heaven appeared unto John the Revelator. He saw a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars which represents the Kingdom of God on the earth and the crown represents his twelve tribes of Israel/and also the 12 apostles. The woman was with child and was in pain to give birth which represents the Savior of mankind to come forth out of the Kingdom of God.

That does not answer WHEN you think it happened. You just restated WHAT happened with a bit of commentary on the meaning of a few of the signs. I'll ask again... WHEN did this happen?

Bill the Cat
01-25-2014, 05:59 AM
I'm not making the connection on this one.

Because Revelation says "the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." Since this supposedly happened BEFORE the fall, there was nothing satan could accuse "the brethren" of before God. So, no sin, no accusation.


And "the brethren" could not have been Michael and the angels, since angels can not die.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death

How could one who could not die be faced with death?