The end of the Law...

[Sozo]

For those of you who think we are to "keep" the 10 commandments...

Matt 5: 17-20

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished. "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches others, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven."

Let us begin with the last verse of this statement from Jesus first...


For I say to you, that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven.

What tremendous hope Jesus has placed in the hearts and minds of the people he is addressing. :no: To give you a more clear understanding of this statement, think of it this way... Let's say Jesus was here just a few years ago and he was standing before a huge crowd with CNN broadcasting it live all over the world. Every person on the planet was watching intently. Standing next to Him was the Pope, Mother Teresa, & Billy Graham. Jesus looks right at the camera, and into the eyes of every person in the crowd and says "Unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pope, Mother Teresa, and Billy, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven!" How many people do you think are just filled with hope? What about Billy, Teresa, and the Pope? They just found out that their righteousness was not good enough. The whole world has just been told that they are without hope through their own righteousness to enter the kingdom of God.

Now, let's go back and look at the beginning of these verses...

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished.

In your estimation, has any of the Law ceased? Sacrifices? Keeping the Sabbath? Circumcision? Jesus said that none of it would cease until ALL is accomplished. Has Jesus fulfilled the Law? Let's see what Paul says after the cross...

Eph 2:13-16

But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one, and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.

Romans 8:3-4

For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

2 Cor 3:7-16

But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones (Ten Commandments), came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, how shall the ministry of the Spirit (The Gospel) fail to be even more with glory? For if the ministry of condemnation (Ten Commandments) has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness (The Gospel) abound in glory. For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory on account of the glory that surpasses it. For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory. Having therefore such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, and are not as Moses, who used to put a veil over his face that the sons of Israel might not look intently at the end of what was fading away. But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant (The Law, including the 10 Commandments) the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a man turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

Rom 10:4

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes

Gal 3:21-26

For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Accrding to Paul, because of Christ's sacrifice on the cross of Calvary, we are no longer under the Law.

Jesus was born "under the Law"...

Gal 4:4-5

But when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, in order that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

Jesus commands before the cross were designed by God to lead us to Christ! He came to declare all men unrighteous through the Law, so that all men would turn to Him, and would receive the righteousness of God by faith!

Jesus revealed man's hearts through the Law...

"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery'; but I say to you, that everyone who looks on a woman to lust for her has committed adultery with her already in his heart. "And if your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. "And if your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to go into hell.

Have you ever had any altar calls at your church to pluck out eyes, or cut off hands? Was Jesus kidding? Not under the Law He wasn't!

Gal 3:22

But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

If you are in Christ, you have fulfilled the Law! You are no longer walking according to the flesh (works of righteousness through the Law), but you are now walking by the Spirit (by faith in the finished work of Christ !!!)

[Solly]

Amen!! Free at last.

The old law is gone for believers; that which was given by angels, under which we were subjected, is passed away. For the law only reveals sin, and genders to bondage.

Stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ has made you free.

[Ishmael]

Good thing I don't have to keep the Commandments anymore... what with coming events and all... or so I am told by every armchair warrior on the forum.

[Solly]

No Calvinist, you have to keep the Gospel, by the Spirit; the law now written on fleshly tables, and not stone which no man kept.

Rom 8.2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.

Heb 7.12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

[spl_cadet]

The ritualist parts of the Mosaic law are gone, true, but the moral parts of the Mosaic law stay. Or are we to think that what God thinks is right or wrong changes?

[Sozo]

spl_cadet:
The ritualist parts of the Mosaic law are gone, true, but the moral parts of the Mosaic law stay.

Prove it! I have just proved otherwise.

[Solly]

Spl, all the Mosaic law has gone. The Mosaic law was part of the covenant with Israel, and that has gone too. There are no bits hived off. The law was given to rule a sinful people. Now we have direct rule from heaven, and by a law greater than the Mosaic.

That does not mean that there is a different law, and that what was right is now wrong. And as far as nonJews are concerned, who had a shadow of the law in their conscience, which they rejected, they were never under the Mosaic law, so why should they be so now?

The Mosaic law served as containment, until Christ came, and then the Spirit. It still points to the righteous expectations of God, but that which is in the Gospel does even more so.

Sozo and I disagree on some of the outworkings of this doctrine, but we agree here. We are healed, so why keep taking the tablets? :angel:

Besides, do you keep the 4th commandment? it seems to be something very lacking in American society that they don't observe the Lord's Day or 7th day, and seem quite happy to watch TV, go to a game or the mall, etc

[Sozo]

Solly:
Besides, do you keep the 4th commandment? it seems to be something very lacking in American society that they don't observe the Lord's Day or 7th day, and seem quite happy to watch TV, go to a game or the mall, etc

Or type on the computer at a selected website :smile:

[GrayPilgrim]

spl_cadet:
The ritualist parts of the Mosaic law are gone, true, but the moral parts of the Mosaic law stay. Or are we to think that what God thinks is right or wrong changes?

Sorry, the law is a totality. The "cultic", "moral" and "civil" law distinction is complete hogwash. As you read Leviticus, Numbers... the "different" types are interspered in the same verses and passages. This distinction was a later development of the Church based on a faulty understanding of teh Law of Moses.

[JCA]

I wouldn't say the Law has been removed.. I would say it has been altered. Even the 10 commandments haven't been abolished, they have been summerized in Christs new commendments:

Romans 13:9
For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

So although I agree..

Heb 8:13
13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Gal 5:1-4
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

It does not invalidate the law.. Love is the fullfilling of the Law..

Romans 13:10
Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

As I said, the law is changed, not gone.. but changed in such a way that one cannot be made righteous by it as it stood. Christ has modified the law to be taken through the understand of the new law: "Love thy neighbor as thy love thyself."

At least.. that's JMHO :)

Love and Peace

JCA

[Solly]

I see your point JCA (And is that the PLPP or the PPLP?), but it is not clear enough on the issue.

It is true that the law says "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God" But it is first of all a matter of to whom that is said. It is to Israel: Deut 6.4. There is no command here to all men, nor is there the promise of benefits to those who do, and punishment to those who don't outside of Israel. The love God commands here is covenant love. You can't take this apart from it's place in the covenent with Israel.

The Gentiles were never under that law, esp not as a covenant.
Yes there is a law written in our hearts, but it is a pale shadow of this revelation from God to Israel, and requires more in the way of our reverence and obedience to God (thus making us without excuse).
Equally, there is a similarity between the fuller revelation in the Gospel with that in the covenant law to Israel, but it is on different terms entirely. Israel's law was "Do this and live", the Christian's is "Live and do this".

They must be distinguished and kept apart, because as Paul showed to the Galatians, to take part of the law is to take it all, and that includes the curses for failure to follow it. Christians are called to walk in the Spirit, with the law written on their heart, free from the condemning covenant, as Paul sums up in Galatians, where they were seeking to take on board the law: "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature/creation. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be upon them and mercy. Gal 6.15,16

The law knew nothing of mercy. Only God shows mercy. For the sins of murder and adultery David should have died under the law, but Nathan told him, God hath put away thy sin, for grace is greater than the Law. See Ps 32

Finally, What is not of faith is sin; and "The law is not of faith" Gal 3.12

So, as far as the commandment to love God is concerned, unless that proceeds from a changed nature, and the shedding forth of the love of God in our hearts by the Holy Spirit, then a million commandments won't help. "I will put my law in their inward parts and write it on their hearts" Jer 31. What law? Thou shalt love, etc. It becomes a willing obedience (Ps 110.3), not a legal demand, as the law was: Do this and live.

regards

[Sozo]

Great post Solly!

My only difference here would be about the "law" that is written on our hearts. I see it as... "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death".
I really believe that this law was God's greatest intention- the mystery, if you will, "Christ in you"!

[Solly]

Sozo, I think we are probably talking the same thing, though worded differently. Ultimately, as Ps 110.3 shows, it comes back to Christ. As we are united to him. Without him we can do nothing, hence we are told to abide in him. You and I would disagree (and have disagreed) on the experiential outworkings of that, but the theory is the same.

The law in the conscience and the Mosaic law are partial revelations, and more importantly, they leave us in our own strength. Writing the law on our hearts means that God enables us to do these things - it is not just a matter of having the knowledge of these things, but having the desire and will to do them; that we might be comformed to the image of Christ, in righteousness, holiness, knowledge, and truth.

It's quite a calling, and one we sadly fail to live up to on so many occasions. But we, as a new creation, are designed to fly not crawl, however many times we fail in doing so. Imagine a young eagle giving up and taking to the footpaths!!

[Sozo]

In relation to this, did not Paul say "Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

and...

"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual [thoughts] with spiritual [words]. But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no man. For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct Him? But we have the mind of (concerning) Christ."

"And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect."

I believe that our obligation to "living the Christian life" is wrapped up in knowing who Jesus is, and what He has done for, and in us! Without this truth, we are not truly free, and we find ourselves back to serving the law of sin & death.

[Freak]

Yes, God has given us a new, better Covenant. God's Word tells us:

But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

There are times when an ocean of error is so vast and the waves so high that one dare not venture out on it. The contributions to this thread are like that. I'm not even going to get involved in this one.... It's torture just reading it!

[Sozo]

Theonomy:
There are times when an ocean of error is so vast and the waves so high that one dare not venture out on it. The contributions to this thread are like that. I'm not even going to get involved in this one.... It's torture just reading it!

The truth hurts, doesn't it?

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

Sozo:


The truth hurts, doesn't it?
Well, after reading this thread, I wouldn't know!

[Sozo]

Theonomy:

Well, after reading this thread, I wouldn't know!

Which is it... "torture"? or "you don't know"?

See, you double-minded people can never come to any conclusions.

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

Sozo:


Which is it... "torture"? or "you don't know"?

See, you double-minded people can never come to any conclusions.

LOL.... You seem to read me like you read the Bible. Do I really need to explain?

It's "torture" because it's false and annoying to me. I "wouldn't know" if the truth hurts by reading this thread since it doesn't teach the truth, so I couldn;t possibly be hurth by the truth in this thread.

Clear?

[Sozo]

Theonomy:
Clear?

What is blatantly clear is that you don't know, and that you are tortured by the truth.

C'mon smart guy give it your best shot!

Start with something simple, like Matt 5:17

[ItalianGold]

Sozo,


I'm very confused. Would you do me a great favor and just list the things that you believe a good Christian must do and believe in order to enter the Pearly Gates?"

Then, we can have a conversation. :smile:






IG

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

Sozo:


What is blatantly clear is that you don't know, and that you are tortured by the truth.

How could it be clear that I don't know, since I haven't even discussed it here?

There are some contexts where one can be absolutely assured that those who stand before him in a mob armed with torches and pitchforks are somewhat unlikely to listen with the intention of hearing. This is such a context.

[Sozo]

ItalianGold:
Sozo,


I'm very confused. Would you do me a great favor and just list the things that you believe a good Christian must do and believe in order to enter the Pearly Gates?"

Then, we can have a conversation. :smile:






IG

Do? Nothing!

Believe? God's right, and we are not. That Jesus became wrong that we might become right, by accepting His provision for our being wrong.

[Sozo]

Theonomy:


How could it be clear that I don't know, since I haven't even discussed it here?

There are some contexts where one can be absolutely assured that those who stand before him in a mob armed with torches and pitchforks are somewhat unlikely to listen with the intention of hearing. This is such a context.

You have something new to say that hasn't been said?

You already professed that what was said on this thread was an "ocean of error"! You afraid to get your feet wet?

[ItalianGold]

Sozo:


Do? Nothing!

Believe? God's right, and we are not. That Jesus became wrong that we might become right, by accepting His provision for our being wrong.

Well, I know a few million Christians that may be surprised to know that going to Church, praying, tithing, loving their neighbor through care and charity, remaining chaste, obeying the commandments, reading the Bible and spreading the Word are just silly exercises with no reason!!!

IG :huh:

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

Sozo:
You already professed that what was said on this thread was an "ocean of error"! You afraid to get your feet wet?

In an ocean of error, a lone defender of truth is sometimes wise to let it bubble and storm by itself.

[Solly]

ItalianGold:


Well, I know a few million Christians that may be surprised to know that going to Church, praying, tithing, loving their neighbor through care and charity, remaining chaste, obeying the commandments, reading the Bible and spreading the Word are just silly exercises with no reason!!!

IG :huh:

IG, who said so?

Church: forsake not the assembling of yourselves together - NT

Praying: praying always - NT

Tithing: - OT. You got me on that one; that's a modern concoction that I don't hold to.

Loving your neighbour - Already explained. Love is the fulfilling of the law. Which law? The law of Christ. Who also said love your enemies, which the Mosaic law only said with qualifications: love the stranger in the land, but kick your enemies butts.

Chaste: plenty there in the NT

Obeying the commandments: Whose commandments? If ye keep my commandments. NT. Those we have direct from him, not those ministered by angels, on stone, to a man, for a certain people. I have already said that God's righteousness is seen in the OT Law, but it is more clearly seen in the law of Christ. We have put away the things of children, no longer held under by it as by pedagogues (slaves), for we have come into the inheritance, being sons.

Reading the word: let the word of God dwell in you richly. - NT

Spreading the Word: Go into all nations - NT. When were the Jews told to do that?

Btw Theonomy. This teaching has been around a lot longer than you think. luther saw it; read his commentary on Galatians. The Presbbies verred away from it, because it would affect their state church status. The earliest Baptists saw it, as did Tobias Crisp, John Saltmarsh, John Gill, John Brine, William Huntington, William Gadsby (17th, 18th,19th centuries).
There are some contexts where one can be absolutely assured that those who stand before him in a mob armed with torches and pitchforks are somewhat unlikely to listen with the intention of hearing. This is such a context.
This kind of thing merely shows that you have nothing to say except invective. This was an exchange btwn Sozo and I. You have contributed nothing, not even some verses that you think might bring it into question. Shall I go on to a Theonomy thread and say the same thing?

I stand with my Lord:
And they answered him not a thing.
----
IG: I'm very confused. Would you do me a great favor and just list the things that you believe a good Christian must do and believe in order to enter the Pearly Gates?"
I speak for myself here, since Sozo and I do have differences, as previously mentioned.
Rom 10.8 But what saith [the scriptures]? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Would you like to add anything to that?
Of course we can discuss what are the evidences of being such a saved person. I would refer you to the list provided by ItalianGold, and my comments thereupon.
But if that is not enough:
Titus 2.1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: 2 That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience. 3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; 4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed. 6 Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded. 7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity, 8 Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you. 9 Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again; 10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

And finally, lest you say, what is the OT for then. "These things are written for our examples"

[Solly]

Further thoughts:

We deny the Mosaic Law as the believer's rule of life because of its inherent imperfection. It does not provide grace to fulfill it, nor mercy to those who break it. And it does not communicate the Spirit Gal. 3.2. To walk as a believer, we must walk by the power of love as revealed in Christ, and poured out into our hearts by the Holy Spirit.

There is nowhere in Scripture that shows that, although the Law as a covenant of works has been put away; that some of its provisions rendered useless by the disappearance of Israel, and that parts have been fulfilled in Christ, that there is still a residue left over, deprived of its sanctions and blessings, that still apllies to us.

Soon enough, the word Antinomian might occur to someone here.

But this view is not antinomianism, for we do not deny law as such.

1 The is the law of the state, recognised in Rom 13. We uphold that.

2. There is the law of the conscience, Rom 2.14,15. Blinded by satan in unregenerate man, renewed in the regenerate, but still not perfect, requiring the teaching of scripture, and so not to be relied upon in the face of the greater revelation of God in his word.

3. The law of Moses. As mentioned, a covenant law to a specific people, now superceded in Christ. Not for the Christian: "the law is not made for a righteous man."

4. The law of the new testament; evidence of which is given above. We are told to beware of all who do not walk according to this rule Rom 16.17.

5. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. If we have not the Spirit of Christ, we are none of this, and all our Gospel observances are just dead works, and self righteous legalism.

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

Solly:
Btw Theonomy. This teaching has been around a lot longer than you think. luther saw it; read his commentary on Galatians. The Presbbies verred away from it, because it would affect their state church status. The earliest Baptists saw it, as did Tobias Crisp, John Saltmarsh, John Gill, John Brine, William Huntington, William Gadsby (17th, 18th,19th centuries).

I find that an odd remark, since you don't know how long I think it's been around. For your edification, I suggest reading a little bit more of Luther on the Law than just his commentary on Galatians. You may be in for a surprise, pleasant or unpleasant I'm not sure.

This kind of thing merely shows that you have nothing to say except invective. This was an exchange btwn Sozo and I. You have contributed nothing, not even some verses that you think might bring it into question. Shall I go on to a Theonomy thread and say the same thing?

Perhaps I ought to have observed in silence. Perhaps. Now that I've intervened, I suppose Imay as well attempt something constructive. Experience tells me that I have no hope of persuading people who are deeply committed to a theological outlook that they might have made a mistake somewhere. So instead, perhaps I should ask a couple of questions in the hope of provoking further though on the matters you're discussing.

Firstly, which Law is summarised by the following:

"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and strength. You shall love your neighbour as yourself."

Is that a summary of the Law of Christ, or of the Law of God as presented in the Old Testament?

Secondly, do you consider yourself to be a member of "the New Covenant"? (I ask this because it leads to another question).

Regards
Glenn

[Solly]

Theonomy:
Experience tells me that I have no hope of persuading people who are deeply committed to a theological outlook that they might have made a mistake somewhere.

And you are not?

You user name is Theonomy, you have a theonomy website, and yet you are not deeply committed to a theological outlook? Do I take it you are not deeply committed to being a Christian either? How easily persuadable are you?

I find that an odd remark, since you don't know how long I think it's been around. For your edification, I suggest reading a little bit more of Luther on the Law than just his commentary on Galatians. You may be in for a surprise, pleasant or unpleasant I'm not sure.

I have pointed out the provenance of the views. I am not Lutheran, so do not accept everything he said, any more than I accept everything Calvin said, though I am Calvinistic. And you made this comment in the first place,
There are some contexts where one can be absolutely assured that those who stand before him in a mob armed with torches and pitchforks are somewhat unlikely to listen with the intention of hearing. This is such a context.
... so why are you retreating onto the moral high ground now? Which mob are you referring to? Which pitchforks? Sozo posted somehting, I responded. We developed it.
You have by your own comments guaranteed little chance of a hearing; but then you seek to turn it round and make us (two people) to be in the wrong.
There are times when an ocean of error is so vast and the waves so high that one dare not venture out on it. The contributions to this thread are like that. I'm not even going to get involved in this one.... It's torture just reading it!
By posting this you got involved. And it is for you to defend yourself, not put us on the defense as if we are some pariah in the Christian community.

[Solly]

"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and strength. You shall love your neighbour as yourself."

Who is that law written to? I have already pointed out that while the Mosaic Law is a revelation of God's righteousness, it is not a complete revelation, and is restricted in time and place. The Jews were to love their Jewish neighbours, and the strangers that dwelt in the land. Whereas Paul points out: "Render therefore to all their dues...owe no man anything but to love one another...[he quotes some of the "moral" 10C's]...therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." But even he does not quote all the 10C's. They are educational, but there is more, as he goes on to say in the rest of his letters.
The question is, whether the Law as expressed in the OT - in its context and terms as a covenant - is our rule of life. It is not.

do you consider yourself to be a member of "the New Covenant"?

Since it is a simple question (although leading to more questions) then the simple answer is yes. But obviously that will be qualified by whatever comes after, since I suspect it has the tone of a "do you still beat your wife" question.

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

Solly:
And you are not?
You user name is Theonomy, you have a theonomy website, and yet you are not deeply committed to a theological outlook? Do I take it you are not deeply committed to being a Christian either? How easily persuadable are you?

Not very. Did I ever suggest otherwise? I was only explaining my reluctance for enaging in debate. the reason I don't do it often is that people who are committed to their own view are unlikely to consider your view too seriously. Do I think this doesn;t apply to me? Of course not.

You have by your own comments guaranteed little chance of a hearing; but then you seek to turn it round and make us (two people) to be in the wrong.

In the wrong? See my above comment.

By posting this you got involved. And it is for you to defend yourself, not put us on the defense as if we are some pariah in the Christian community.

I think you can see that I'm not putting anyone on the defensive. A Socratic dialogue tends to be more conducive to though provocation than "putting ont he gloves" as it were. LOL, I start to actually dialogue now and this is what happens? Chill.

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

Solly:
The question is, whether the Law as expressed in the OT - in its context and terms as a covenant - is our rule of life. It is not.


Well actually, the question was whether or not the command: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and strength. You shall love your neighbour as yourself," is a summary of the 'Law of Christ," or a summary of the Law of the Old Testament. I hope you don't object to my waiting for an answer on that one.


OK, to the second question you say yes, you are a member of "the New Covenant." Just to be crystal clear, do you think this New Covenant is the one mentioned in Jeremiah 31?

[Solly]

Sorry Theonomy, but I'm not playing patsy to your Socrates :bonk:. If you had started like this in the first place, then things might have gone better.

If you think you come in, offending and insulting people, and then say: "Ok, let's chat now", then you're wrong.

I was only explaining my reluctance for enaging in debate. the reason I don't do it often is that people who are committed to their own view are unlikely to consider your view too seriously.
If you think this:A Socratic dialogue tends to be more conducive to though provocation than "putting on the gloves" as it were.
Explains this: There are some contexts where one can be absolutely assured that those who stand before him in a mob armed with torches and pitchforks are somewhat unlikely to listen with the intention of hearing. This is such a context. There are times when an ocean of error is so vast and the waves so high that one dare not venture out on it. The contributions to this thread are like that. I'm not even going to get involved in this one.... It's torture just reading it!
Under the guise of this:I think you can see that I'm not putting anyone on the defensive.
Then I would hate to see you with your gloves on.

I shall leave you to your reluctance.

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

Solly:
I shall leave you to your reluctance.

I assume that this means you don't want to discuss this at all with me now?

[Solly]

Very perceptive of you Theo

It's "torture" because it's false and annoying to me. I "wouldn't know" if the truth hurts by reading this thread since it doesn't teach the truth, so I couldn't possibly be hurt by the truth in this thread.

To return the favour: People who are committed to their own view are unlikely to consider your view too seriously.

I don't see much point in continuing.

[GrayPilgrim]

I think a little civility would be helpful here.

Theo--why don't you state a positive case for your position at this time and then others can respond or answer any objections to what has already been said, as this banter is less than helpful.

GP

[Solly]

GP he has started another thread

here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1088)

[GrayPilgrim]

Thanks Solly!

[geoff]

I want to add my 2c.

What is the "law written of the hearts of believers" - is it DIFFERENT to any other of God's law? Does Paul say that it is BECAUSE it is written on the hearts of believers, that the believer keeps the law of God?

The problem with the nation of Israel is not that they were "legalistic" (although some certainly were), the problem with Israel, is that they did not recognise that Jesus was the messiah, and that they failed in their task to take the gospel to the world. They did that by excluding non Jews from worship, and by, of course, not recognising who Jesus was.

Salvation has always been by faith, and obedience to the law has always been a result, and always will be, until such time as there is no need for a "teacher". The Law and the Spirit work together to give life to Believers, and to bring slavery and death to the wicked.