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themuzicman
September 26th 2007, 10:44 AM
I've been studying the OT as part of my course of study, and I'm finding that there is a cycle which repeats itself throughout the Old Testament with respect to Israel, and I'm starting to see that cycle repeated in Jesus' lifetime.

Let me explain.

The Old Testament from the time of Abraham revolves around God's covenant with Abraham regarding the physical land of Israel.

1 Now the Lord said to Abram, "Go forth from your country, And from your relatives And from your father's house, To the land which I will show you; 2 And I will make you a great nation, And I will bless you, And make your name great; And so you shall be a blessing;

And the story of Abraham takes him to Egypt, where he lies about Sarah being his wife... twice... and then returns to the land, where the covenant is finally established after the test with Isaac.


Jacob goes through his trials, and at the end of his life, Joseph, one of the sons of Israel, is sold into slavery, and he goes to Egypt, where the Israelites remain for 400 years, before God rescues them and sets them on a path to the promised land.

But they wander for 40 years because they grumble against God.

And the next generation gains entry into the promised land.

However, after establishing their foothold in the land, they fail to conquer it all, and the book of Judges is about how Israel falls away from God, and God sends a judge to call them back, and this happens repeatedly... Until Samuel appoints Saul King of Israel.

Then we have a prosperous time under Saul, David and Solomon, but at the end of Solomon's life, he begins to worship other gods, and God sends more prophets to warn Israel about exile from the land (Hosea, Joel, Amos, and the other pre-exilic prophets), and then Israel and Judah are conquered and sent off of the land.

Now, the exhilic prophets use exodus language to describe going into exile and returning.from it. Jeremiah even predicts the length of time that they are gone.

And 70 years later, they return to the land.

The cycle we see, here, is Israel submitting to God, then wandering from faith in Him, and after God sends them into exile, and they call upon Him, they return.

But, there's another aspect to this:

25 "When you become the father of children and children's children and have remained long in the land, and act corruptly, and make an idol in the form of anything, and do that which is evil in the sight of the Lord your God [so as] to provoke Him to anger, 26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that you will surely perish quickly from the land where you are going over the Jordan to possess it. You shall not live long on it, but will be utterly destroyed. 27 "The Lord will scatter you among the peoples, and you will be left few in number among the nations where the Lord drives you. 28 "There you will serve gods, the work of man's hands, wood and stone, which neither see nor hear nor eat nor smell. 29 "But from there you will seek the Lord your God, and you will find [Him] if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul. 30 "When you are in distress and all these things have come upon you, in the latter days you will return to the Lord your God and listen to His voice. 31 "For the Lord your God is a compassionate God; He will not fail you nor destroy you nor forget the covenant with your fathers which He swore to them.

God predicts this cycle, and even states that only a few will remain. The remnant.

This happened during Elijah's time, when 7000 remained that didn't bow their knee to ba'al, and also happened in the return from exile, when only a few returned to rebuild the city.


There's also one other aspect of the prophets: When they prophesy, they always preach restoration after Israel (or at least the remnant) calls upon God.



Fast forward to the New Testament.


John the Baptist comes preaching:

1 Now in those days John the Baptist ^came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea, saying, 2 "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

He's calling Israel back to worshiping God, preparing the way for the Messiah.

And Jesus says:

49 "For this reason also the wisdom of God said, `I will send to them prophets and apostles, and [some] of them they will kill and [some] they will persecute, 50 so that the blood of all the prophets, shed since the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the house [of God]; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation.'

Judgment against Israel for killing the prophets...And later He tells this story:

9 And He began to tell the people this parable: "A man planted a vineyard and rented it out to vine-growers, and went on a journey for a long time. 10 "At the [harvest] time he sent a slave to the vine-growers, so that they would give him [some] of the produce of the vineyard; but the vine-growers beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 11 "And he proceeded to send another slave; and they beat him also and treated him shamefully and sent him away empty-handed. 12 "And he proceeded to send a third; and this one also they wounded and cast out. 13 "The owner of the vineyard said, `What shall I do? I will send my beloved son ; perhaps they will respect him.' 14 "But when the vine-growers saw him, they reasoned with one another, saying, `This is the heir; let us kill him so that the inheritance will be ours.' 15 "So they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. What, then, will the owner of the vineyard do to them? 16 "He will come and destroy these vine-growers and will give the vineyard to others."

Granted that this was spoke primarily against the Scribes and Pharisees, but they were the leaders of Israel, and would represent Israel as a nation.

And, of course:

22 And He was passing through from one city and village to another, teaching, and proceeding on His way to Jerusalem. 23 And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there [just] a few who are being saved?" And He said to them, 24 "Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 "Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, `Lord, open up to us!' then He will answer and say to you, `I do not know where you are from.' 26 "Then you will begin to say, `We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets'; 27 and He will say, `I tell you, I do not know where you are from; depart from Me, all you evildoers.' 28 "In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out. 29 "And they will come from east and west and from north and south, and will recline [at the table] in the kingdom of God.

The weeping and gnashing of teeth is a theme in Matthew, as well:

8 But the centurion said, "Lord, I am not worthy for You to come under my roof, but just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 "For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to this one, `Go!' and he goes, and to another, `Come!' and he comes, and to my slave, `Do this!' and he does [it]." 10 Now when Jesus heard [this], He marveled and said to those who were following, "Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel. 11 "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline [at the table] with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

1 Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying, 2 "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. 3 "And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. 4 "Again he sent out other slaves saying, `Tell those who have been invited, "Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are [all] butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast." ' 5 "But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business, 6 and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. 7 "But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire. 8 "Then he ^said to his slaves, `The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 `Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find [there], invite to the wedding feast.' 10 "Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests. 11 "But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, 12 and he ^said to him, `Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?' And the man was speechless. 13 "Then the king said to the servants, `Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

Again, we have those who were invited, who do not come, and are destroyed, and those who do not have wedding clothes are sent out.


And what we notice of Jesus parables which appear to prophesy is that there is no message of restoration. There is judgment, and then destruction.


Of course, we've all seen this before, but it's a study I've had to do in Joel that put this all together:

28 "It will come about after this That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind; And your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions. 29 "Even on the male and female servants I will pour out My Spirit in those days. 30 "I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth, Blood, fire and columns of smoke. 31 "The sun will be turned into darkness And the moon into blood Before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.

This portion of Scripture is in the redemption part of Chapters 1 and 2. It seems to be something that happens after the restoration.

Clearly Peter cites this as applying to Pentecost.

But what of verses 30 and 31? The sun turning to darkness and the moon to blood isn't restoration, but destruction.

So, is Israel destroyed?

32 "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord Will be delivered; For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem There will be those who escape, As the Lord has said, Even among the survivors whom the Lord calls.

Clearly Joel intends destruction, and says that those who call upon God and are called by Him will be saved.


Paul cites this verse in Romans 10, and then in Romans 11, speaks of God's promises to Israel being fulfilled through the remnant.

11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same [Lord] is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.

1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in [the passage about] Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 "Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life." 4 But what is the divine response to him? "I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to [God's] gracious choice.




So, the question is: Will the nation of Israel rise in the future as the people of God and worship in their temple? Is there a promise of restoration from the last prophet to them, namely Jesus Christ?

Michael

thelaqachisnext
November 2nd 2007, 12:48 AM
Yea!

Jezz
November 3rd 2007, 01:31 PM
I've been studying the OT as part of my course of study, and I'm finding that there is a cycle which repeats itself throughout the Old Testament with respect to Israel, and I'm starting to see that cycle repeated in Jesus' lifetime.

Let me explain.

The Old Testament from the time of Abraham revolves around God's covenant with Abraham regarding the physical land of Israel.

1 Now the Lord said to Abram, "Go forth from your country, And from your relatives And from your father's house, To the land which I will show you; 2 And I will make you a great nation, And I will bless you, And make your name great; And so you shall be a blessing;

And the story of Abraham takes him to Egypt, where he lies about Sarah being his wife... twice... and then returns to the land, where the covenant is finally established after the test with Isaac.


Jacob goes through his trials, and at the end of his life, Joseph, one of the sons of Israel, is sold into slavery, and he goes to Egypt, where the Israelites remain for 400 years, before God rescues them and sets them on a path to the promised land.

But they wander for 40 years because they grumble against God.

And the next generation gains entry into the promised land.

However, after establishing their foothold in the land, they fail to conquer it all, and the book of Judges is about how Israel falls away from God, and God sends a judge to call them back, and this happens repeatedly... Until Samuel appoints Saul King of Israel.

Then we have a prosperous time under Saul, David and Solomon, but at the end of Solomon's life, he begins to worship other gods, and God sends more prophets to warn Israel about exile from the land (Hosea, Joel, Amos, and the other pre-exilic prophets), and then Israel and Judah are conquered and sent off of the land.

Now, the exhilic prophets use exodus language to describe going into exile and returning.from it. Jeremiah even predicts the length of time that they are gone.

And 70 years later, they return to the land.

The cycle we see, here, is Israel submitting to God, then wandering from faith in Him, and after God sends them into exile, and they call upon Him, they return.

But, there's another aspect to this:

25 "When you become the father of children and children's children and have remained long in the land, and act corruptly, and make an idol in the form of anything, and do that which is evil in the sight of the Lord your God [so as] to provoke Him to anger, 26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that you will surely perish quickly from the land where you are going over the Jordan to possess it. You shall not live long on it, but will be utterly destroyed. 27 "The Lord will scatter you among the peoples, and you will be left few in number among the nations where the Lord drives you. 28 "There you will serve gods, the work of man's hands, wood and stone, which neither see nor hear nor eat nor smell. 29 "But from there you will seek the Lord your God, and you will find [Him] if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul. 30 "When you are in distress and all these things have come upon you, in the latter days you will return to the Lord your God and listen to His voice. 31 "For the Lord your God is a compassionate God; He will not fail you nor destroy you nor forget the covenant with your fathers which He swore to them.

God predicts this cycle, and even states that only a few will remain. The remnant.

This happened during Elijah's time, when 7000 remained that didn't bow their knee to ba'al, and also happened in the return from exile, when only a few returned to rebuild the city.


There's also one other aspect of the prophets: When they prophesy, they always preach restoration after Israel (or at least the remnant) calls upon God.



Fast forward to the New Testament.


John the Baptist comes preaching:

1 Now in those days John the Baptist ^came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea, saying, 2 "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

He's calling Israel back to worshiping God, preparing the way for the Messiah.

And Jesus says:

49 "For this reason also the wisdom of God said, `I will send to them prophets and apostles, and [some] of them they will kill and [some] they will persecute, 50 so that the blood of all the prophets, shed since the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the house [of God]; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation.'

Judgment against Israel for killing the prophets...And later He tells this story:

9 And He began to tell the people this parable: "A man planted a vineyard and rented it out to vine-growers, and went on a journey for a long time. 10 "At the [harvest] time he sent a slave to the vine-growers, so that they would give him [some] of the produce of the vineyard; but the vine-growers beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 11 "And he proceeded to send another slave; and they beat him also and treated him shamefully and sent him away empty-handed. 12 "And he proceeded to send a third; and this one also they wounded and cast out. 13 "The owner of the vineyard said, `What shall I do? I will send my beloved son ; perhaps they will respect him.' 14 "But when the vine-growers saw him, they reasoned with one another, saying, `This is the heir; let us kill him so that the inheritance will be ours.' 15 "So they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. What, then, will the owner of the vineyard do to them? 16 "He will come and destroy these vine-growers and will give the vineyard to others."

Granted that this was spoke primarily against the Scribes and Pharisees, but they were the leaders of Israel, and would represent Israel as a nation.

And, of course:

22 And He was passing through from one city and village to another, teaching, and proceeding on His way to Jerusalem. 23 And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there [just] a few who are being saved?" And He said to them, 24 "Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 "Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, `Lord, open up to us!' then He will answer and say to you, `I do not know where you are from.' 26 "Then you will begin to say, `We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets'; 27 and He will say, `I tell you, I do not know where you are from; depart from Me, all you evildoers.' 28 "In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out. 29 "And they will come from east and west and from north and south, and will recline [at the table] in the kingdom of God.

The weeping and gnashing of teeth is a theme in Matthew, as well:

8 But the centurion said, "Lord, I am not worthy for You to come under my roof, but just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 "For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to this one, `Go!' and he goes, and to another, `Come!' and he comes, and to my slave, `Do this!' and he does [it]." 10 Now when Jesus heard [this], He marveled and said to those who were following, "Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel. 11 "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline [at the table] with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

1 Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying, 2 "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. 3 "And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. 4 "Again he sent out other slaves saying, `Tell those who have been invited, "Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are [all] butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast." ' 5 "But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business, 6 and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. 7 "But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire. 8 "Then he ^said to his slaves, `The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 `Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find [there], invite to the wedding feast.' 10 "Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests. 11 "But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, 12 and he ^said to him, `Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?' And the man was speechless. 13 "Then the king said to the servants, `Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

Again, we have those who were invited, who do not come, and are destroyed, and those who do not have wedding clothes are sent out.


And what we notice of Jesus parables which appear to prophesy is that there is no message of restoration. There is judgment, and then destruction.


Of course, we've all seen this before, but it's a study I've had to do in Joel that put this all together:

28 "It will come about after this That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind; And your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions. 29 "Even on the male and female servants I will pour out My Spirit in those days. 30 "I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth, Blood, fire and columns of smoke. 31 "The sun will be turned into darkness And the moon into blood Before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.

This portion of Scripture is in the redemption part of Chapters 1 and 2. It seems to be something that happens after the restoration.

Clearly Peter cites this as applying to Pentecost.

But what of verses 30 and 31? The sun turning to darkness and the moon to blood isn't restoration, but destruction.

So, is Israel destroyed?

32 "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord Will be delivered; For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem There will be those who escape, As the Lord has said, Even among the survivors whom the Lord calls.

Clearly Joel intends destruction, and says that those who call upon God and are called by Him will be saved.


Paul cites this verse in Romans 10, and then in Romans 11, speaks of God's promises to Israel being fulfilled through the remnant.

11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same [Lord] is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.

1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in [the passage about] Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 "Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life." 4 But what is the divine response to him? "I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to [God's] gracious choice.

So, the question is: Will the nation of Israel rise in the future as the people of God and worship in their temple? Is there a promise of restoration from the last prophet to them, namely Jesus Christ?
Yes. But one does not need to look to the future to see a fulfilment of this.

(I also talked about some related issues in this post (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=12137&page=4#post762922), in case you are interested.)

As you note, the history of the OT follows a cycle which is basically as follows:

1. Begin with a faithful Israel.
2. The majority of Israel goes astray.
3. God sends a prophet to bring them to repentance. At which point, there are two paths:
4.a. the people repent - in which case, we go back to step 1.
4.b. some of the people don't repent, in which case God sends judgement.
5. The unfaithful and unrepentant are destroyed, leaving a remnant of faithful.
6. The remnant nation now consists of a majority of faithful (ie, back to step 1).

This happens over and over again in the OT. We have the unfaithful who were cut off at Sinai after the golden calf episode. We have the rebeillion of Korah. Elijah vs Baal worshippers (whom St Paul and you yourself mention). The destruction of the Northern Kingdom, etc, etc. You are quite right to see this process continuing in the NT in the words of the prophets of that day (the forerunner St John the Baptist and Christ Himself).

This process is analogous to a gardener tending to a tree - from time to time he will prune back the dead and diseased branches so that the tree will continue to grow healthily. Even if the majority of the tree becomes diseased, pruning it back hard can still preserve the life of the tree. Indeed, it is exactly this analogy that St Paul uses to describe the process when he uses the analogy of the olive tree in Romans.

The important point is that whenever God sends judgement, He will always preserve a remnant. He will never completely cut off His people. He cannot, because of the promises He made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. So, in answer to your question, you are quite right to expect that a new nation of Israel (or rather, renewed nation of Israel) will arise from the remnant after the judgement predicted by Christ. I don't think that it is a big deal to point out that Christ didn't preach that there would be a restoration, because it would have been understood. God cannot be unfaithful to His covenant promises to Israel (as per the passage you cited in Deuteronomy 4)- He must always preserve a remnant, and never wipe them out completely. If He destroyed the completely, He would be breaking the promise that He made in Deut 4:31.

However, note that in the past judgements, the re-emergence of Israel as a nation didn't happen at some point in the future - it started happening right away (even during the exile, a faithful remnant of the nation was preserved - eg, Daniel). This is because the nation was never totally destroyed in the judgement in first place - God destroyed only the unfaithful of the nation, leaving behind a living and faithful remnant which was still "Israel".

So I think that you are right to be using the OT as a template for interpreting the events of the NT as you are doing, but you aren't taking it far enough. If the OT judgements are a template for the NT judgement predicted by Christ, then (assuming the preterist position that this judgement occured around AD 70) we are wrong to be looking at some distant point in the future for the re-emergence of Israel as a nation. The re-emergence should have been happening right away.

In the case of the judgement of AD 70, the faithful remnant Israel was of course those who had listened to the call to repentance of the NT prophets - the forerunner St John the Baptist, and Jesus Christ, the Son of God Himself. It was from this faithful remnant that the purified nation of Israel rose and continued to grow and thrive. Of course this nation later came to be known by the name of the second Israel (aka "Christ") - hence, the name "Christian", however as the descendants of the faithful remnant they are still the true nation of Israel.

So in answer to your question: The nation of Israel (ie, the Church) has risen up as the people of God, and they worship in their temple (which is the Church). Yes, there is a promise of restoration from the last prophet to them (namely Jesus Christ), and that promise is fulfilled in the ongoing life of the Church.

Of course, that was not God's last judgement on Israel (ie, the Church), and the process of judgement has continued from that time up to the present. From time to time heretics and schismatics rise up and are pruned out of the Church, and sometimes even physically destroyed (eg, the Donatists were destroyed during the Muslim conquests). But through these judgements, each time a purified Israel (ie, the Church) rises again from the faithful remnant.

Note that this has little to do with the modern concept of "nationhood". According to ancient usage of the word "ethnos", the Christians were always reckoned as a "nation/race" (ethnos). "Ethnicity" (ie, nationhood) in ancient times has more to do with cultural identification than it does with race or politcal/geographical boundaries. There was a separate word for "race" as we conceive of it today (though it escapes me at the moment).

But upon this the whole multitude, marvelling at the nobility of mind displayed by the devout and godly race of Christians, cried out, “Away with the Atheists; let Polycarp be sought out!”
(Emphasis added.)

Chapter CXXXV.—Christ is King of Israel, and Christians are the Israelitic Race.

“And when Scripture says, ‘I am the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel, who have made known Israel your King, 'will you not understand that truly Christ is the everlasting King? For you are aware that Jacob the son of Isaac was never a king. And therefore Scripture again, explaining to us, says what king is meant by Jacob and Israel: ‘Jacob is my Servant, I will uphold Him; and Israel is mine Elect, my soul shall receive Him. I have given Him my Spirit; and He shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not cry, and His voice shall not be heard without. The bruised reed He shall not break, and the smoking flax He shall not quench, until He shall bring forth judgment to victory. He shall shine, and shall not be broken, until He set judgment on the earth. And in His name shall the Gentiles trust.' Then is it Jacob the patriarch in whom the Gentiles and yourselves shall trust? or is it not Christ? As, therefore, Christ is the Israel and the Jacob, even so we, who have been quarried out from the bowels of Christ, are the true Israelitic race.
(Emphasis added.)

Thought I don't have the Greek text available, I am fairly certain that the Greek for "race" in the above is "ethnos" (ie, "nation").

Rubens
December 13th 2007, 02:06 AM
So, the question is: Will the nation of Israel rise in the future as the people of God and worship in their temple? Is there a promise of restoration from the last prophet to them, namely Jesus Christ?

Michael

Michael, your study is a good one. It rightly reveals patterns, and prophecy is pattern.

Your question is one of many which are at the heart of eschatological disagreement. For example, I disagree with Jezz, and Martyr for that matter.

I would have thought that most of the arguments surrounding your question would have been silenced on May 14th, 1948. God's judgement and promises are co-existant. He promises to judge but he also promises to restore. Apologies for coming in half-baked but time willing I will dig up a few of the several OT references to Israel's restoration in the land. They are very specific. They are harmonious with the notion that His covenant with Abram was unconditional. i.e. no matter what Israel did to stuff it up, they would be a Nation in their own land.

Analogous treatment and over-spiritualising Bible passages is a risky practice. To equate all references to Israel in the NT as simply meaning a "new Israel" or "second Israel", i.e. replacement theology, may possibly be failing to take God at His word. Not to mention the incredible amount of anti-semitism it seems to have promoted in many orthodoxies.

I humbly stand corrected and have always attempted to digest all the hermeneutics of the differing points of view. However, one of the reasons why I cannot accept replacement theology and preterism is because I cannot accept that God's word, much of which is prophecy as you have eluded to, begins at the beginning of human history, yet ends at 70 AD. I cannot accept that a book with such prophetic precision in the OT simply fades off with vague inferences about the "Church" carrying the torch forevermore. Also, past, recent and current events in relation to Jews are simply too miraculous to discount them being referred to in the Word of God 2,000 years ago.

Regardless of "their" sin, regardless of the punishment "they" may deserve, that's God's business. It's not up to us to take the promises due them and make them ours. God's got a plan for Israel, the nation, Israel, the Jewish people, yet. We just don't fully understand the details.

ZenaV
December 24th 2007, 04:18 AM
So, GOD does destroy the stiff-necked ones who refuse to bow their knee to them......Is that what they are doing today? They just said the temple mount has been descreted. Why haven't they started re-building it since that is supposedly what it takes for Jesus to return and that is partly why they are so supported in their war efforts? Maybe I'm just nosy but I have had this burning desire to learn about Israel and what is going on there. I just can't make it stop! But everytime I start asking questions, people get really nasty with me and try to get me thrown off whatever forum I am on...I find that highly suspicious. People who have GOD on their side is not that viscious. Why would they be? They are supposed to have GOD on their side, are they not? I don't understand...

ZenaV
December 24th 2007, 04:19 AM
bow their knee to (GOD)....sorry, tired time...

Thedonhopeless
January 30th 2008, 07:26 AM
So in other words. as soon as Christ's final judgement was finished in ad70, christians were the new isreal "nation"? and some point the christian " jewish nation" diverged and modern jewish nation we know today branched off and kept with tradition, thus causing more judgement from God (holocaust) to " prune the dead branches" ( 11 million dead branches =/ ) ? Then their remnant was kept safe ofcourse, but that time they didn't learn because they just kept to the tradition, now they have regrown, will God punish them again?

nikolai_42
January 30th 2008, 10:57 AM
So, the question is: Will the nation of Israel rise in the future as the people of God and worship in their temple? Is there a promise of restoration from the last prophet to them, namely Jesus Christ?

Michael

That was quite an extensive study. And while I don't think it can necessarily be dismantled in a couple of verses, there is one critical one (as far as I can see) that you haven't included that says - at least as far as I can say - that the Jews as a nation are not a part of the full Abrahamic promise of God :

Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Matthew 21:42-43

Where once they had the promises and unconditional favor of God(even in the midst of judgment and exile), now they were losing that and becoming as any other people. Remember, when the religious Jews claimed Abraham for their father, this is what Jesus said :

They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
John 8:39-44

It seems to me that Jesus is making it clear that there is no more national blessing in Abraham based strictly on God's choosing of that nation. The kingdom is given to a nation BEARING THE FRUITS. Jesus said that those who are Abraham's seed are the faithful. Paul says as much to the Galatians :

Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
Galatians 3:7-9

And to the Romans :

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Romans 9:6-8

And back to Galatians :

For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
Galatians 4:22-31

So, if there were to be a restored temple, it would be a stench in God's nose because it rejects the whole message of Jesus Christ (just as it was 2000 years ago). The only restoration they are promised is spiritual - if they will cast themselves upon the chief cornerstone. And if there be any physical promises that are to be fulfilled, they are just that - signs of God's faithfulness that may bring many to repentance. But I don't see it. It would only serve to turn men away from the message of Jesus Christ.

Harrell
January 30th 2008, 02:16 PM
Good post Nikolai.

Though it really doesn't need further comment, allow me to add just a few words regarding the allegory of Hagar & Sarah (Gal. 4:21-31). In this allegory, Hagar is “according to the flesh.” She is a “type” or “shadow” of something greater, more important. Sarah is “according to the Spirit.” She is the “antitype” or “substance.” She is the "something greater, more important" She is the ultimate fulfillment. Of course, it would not have been hard for Paul to convince the Jews of these facts. But then he turns the entire Hagar/Sarah story on its head as he declares that the Law of Moses, the Old Covenant, and national Israel are all from Hagar. Those things which belong to Hagar must be “cast out” for they pertain to the flesh. On the other hand, that which is born of Sarah is “of promise.” The Gospel, the New Covenant, and Christians are all from Sarah. Just as Isaac and Ishmael could not inherit the Abrahamic promises together, so national Israel cannot inherit with spiritual Israel the promises of God. This does not mean that those who are Jews in the flesh cannot receive the promises of God. However, it does mean that the true heirs according to promise are those who have been “born according to the Spirit.” When religious teachers today insist that national Israel will receive the Abrahamic promises in the future, they have “cast out” the gospel of Christ! They have rejected the "substance" for the "shadow."

Secretary of Education - Colin the Cat
January 30th 2008, 02:25 PM
Yet, Paul says of his brothers after the flesh "All Israel will be saved". There is a specific reason for that which can NOT mean that "all the church will be saved", because Paul was delineating between jew and Gentile here.

Harrell
January 30th 2008, 02:36 PM
The word "so" (Rom. 11:26, "and so all Israel shall be saved") is an adverb of manner, and in this place it means, "in this manner, under these circumstances." In what manner or circumstances will "all Israel be saved?" Is this saying that God is going to- at some time in the future- interpose and save every Jew of a future generation (against their will)? If so this would violate the very gospel that Paul was preaching, and would violate the main premise of the book of Romans (Rom. 1:16). The apostles taught that both Jews and Gentiles are saved in the exact same way (Acts 15:9,11). If the Jews turn to Christ in faith, they will be saved (Rom. 11:23). Every Jew who is saved will be saved in this way. In fact, every Gentile who is saved will be saved in this way as well. You will not find a single Jew or a single Gentile who is not saved in this way. There is no "delineation" between Jews or Gentiles in this regard. No preference for one over the other. No special recognition of national place or origin.

Secretary of Education - Colin the Cat
January 30th 2008, 02:54 PM
The word "so" (Rom. 11:26, "and so all Israel shall be saved") is an adverb of manner, and in this place it means, "in this manner, under these circumstances." In what manner or circumstances will "all Israel be saved?" Is this saying that God is going to- at some time in the future- interpose and save every Jew of a future generation (against their will)? If so this would violate the very gospel that Paul was preaching, and would violate the main premise of the book of Romans (Rom. 1:16). The apostles taught that both Jews and Gentiles are saved in the exact same way (Acts 15:9,11). If the Jews turn to Christ in faith, they will be saved (Rom. 11:23). Every Jew who is saved will be saved in this way. In fact, every Gentile who is saved will be saved in this way as well. You will not find a single Jew or a single Gentile who is not saved in this way. There is no "delineation" between Jews or Gentiles in this regard. No preference for one over the other. No special recognition of national place or origin.

He interposed on them with a partial blindness in the previous verse:

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


I'm not suggesting that there is a different plan of salvation, but that All Israel will accept Christ when He reveals Himself, that's all.

nikolai_42
January 30th 2008, 02:57 PM
The only thing I have to add to Harrell's sound response is that one of the thoughts in the proposed resurgence of Israel involved the renewal of sacrifices in a physical temple. Neither can EVER "...turn ungodliness from Jacob...". Perhaps an obvious point, but it seems to be often overlooked when the "Israel question" of being reinstated comes up.

Harrell
January 30th 2008, 03:51 PM
Bill,

I'm not suggesting that there is a different plan of salvation, but that All Israel will accept Christ when He reveals Himself, that's all. There are several problems that I have with this view. First, while it is certainly true that all Israel will accept Christ when He comes again, the same thing can also be said regarding every Gentile (Rom. 14:10-11). Of course, then it will be too late. Second, this interpretation still begs the question of who Paul has in mind when he says "all Israel?" Does he mean that "all Israel" who happen to be alive at the time of his coming? If so, then, what becomes of all of those who are "of Israel" who have died outside of Christ in the past 2000 years? Will they, because they were unfortunate enough to have lived and died before Jesus' return, be lost... or will they then be given a "second chance" to be saved? Third, even if "all Israel" refers only to those who happen to be alive at His coming, the interpretation that you have offered would seem to require universal salvation... at least with respect to the "Israel" that is alive at that time. That would be quite a remarkable thing, never before witnessed in God's dealings with national Israel over their 4000+ year history. Fourth, if "all Israel" will be saved at that time, who will be counted as "Israel?" Is it those who are "Israel" by blood? If so, what percentage qualifies? Only those who are full-blood Jews with no Gentile intermarriage? Or, if I happen to have Jewish ancestors somewhere in the dim, dark past of my family genealogy, will I also be counted among "all Israel" that will be saved, should I be alive at Jesus return? On the other hand, if "Israel" refers only to those who continue to practice the old law (and therefore reject the new covenant as well as the One who died to bring it into being), then the argument about "national Israel" having some special promise falls flat.

These are just a few of the questions that come readily to mind. A better explanation is that "all Israel" does not refer to national Israel at all, except to the extent that they might be a subset of the Israel of promise- those who are children of Abraham's faith. The Israel of promise is those (and only those) who are children of God by faith in Christ (Gal. 3:26-29), whether they happen to be ethnic Jews or ethnic Gentiles.