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View Full Version : Preterism can't be the full implications of the Apocalypse


spauline
September 30th 2007, 04:30 AM
Preterism is entirely valid in its own right, as I suppose futurism might even be, as could mere idealism. but preterism is not as important as spiritual historicism.

For example, the implications for major Salvation history of the fact that the war in the fall of Jerusalem was "FIVE months" is not nearly as important as "the Protestant rebelllion dealt a deadly blow to Christian unity, plunging entire large communities into the loss of FIVE sacraments and unleashing divsion and chaos that clearly served as the beginning of undoing the Christian faith altogether in the civs that intially had it."

Hence, the significance of Protestantism has far greater weight of meaning in Salvation history than that Jerusalem fell in five months. If it had been 23 months, would that alter the course of Salvatoin history? So i shouldn't say that the details of the destruction of the temple are utterly useless. But I should say that they are far less significant than the greater spiritual ages of the Church, precisely which are tied to ecclesiology, which is one of the central questions of PUBLIC revelation and dogma.

Dogma doesn't state: "Jerusalem fell in five months" nor would I see any reason that the Church would need to declare such a dogma, because, as a piece of temporal data, it's practically useless. On the other hand, the Chuch defines, "God gives sufficient grace to all schismatics, heretics, infidels, Jews, and pagans." She DOGMATICALLY defines matters of ecclesiology. No where does Jesus say in the Gospels that Jerusalem would fall in five months, but He implies ecclesiology when, in His Eucharistic Prayer, in John 17, he prays that "they may be one."

To the best of my knowledge, the CCC no where mentions that Jerusalem fell in five months, but it mentions "Wounds to unity, schism, heresy, scandal", which are also in Scripture. In the normal Mass prayers, I have never heard the phrase, "and in five months, O Lord, you allowed the Romans to destroy the Temple", but in EVERY SINGLE EUCHARISTIC PRAYER, whether watered down or not but modern lectionaries, there is either an EXPLICIT or IMPLICIT reference to a prayer that CHRISTIAN UNITY increase.

So, here's what I'm saying. The TEMPORAL details of the Early Church may have had SOME MINOR significance for the Early Christians, but, in the grander scheme of things, they are NOT that important. Jerusalem FELL, and the NT age was born. Yes, THAT is monumental. But knowing TEMPORAL specifics of this? Is that really all that important? If you are orthodox, you cannot say these minor TEMPORAL details have the same implication toward the meaning of human history as ECCLESIOLOGY. Ecclesiology is of far more sweeping and has far more mega implications for the salvation of the world.

Therefore, a person who truly understands the Gospel in its core essence would never be content with preterism. A person with true wisdom in this area knows that there must be more, FAR more, to this book, than that.

Dr. Jack Bauer
September 30th 2007, 04:46 AM
If you think the end of God's covenant dealings with Israel and the birth of the NT Church is merely "temporal" (if by that you mean unattached to spiritual matters), then I am shocked by the suggestion.

spauline
September 30th 2007, 10:58 PM
If you think the end of God's covenant dealings with Israel and the birth of the NT Church is merely "temporal" (if by that you mean unattached to spiritual matters), then I am shocked by the suggestion.


Umm, I need to reclarify here. I did not at all mean to imply that the NT Cov is "temporal". No, no no! What I was referring to was the specifiic "FIVE MONTHS" that was the duration of the war in Jerusalem's fall. Of course, the fall of Jerusalem and the ushering in of the Catholic Church is by no means temporal or non-essential. GOd forbid!

What i Mean is, for Scripture to get into exactly how all the "physical and 'temporal'" details of how Jerusalem fell. Hence, by "temporal", I do not mean "temporary" but rather, the superficial events of human history, like the rising and falling of Gentile kingdoms, the LITERAL "times of seasons" of things. For example, that Mel Gibson movie about Braveheart. That was a "temporal" event of history,and it would be pointless for Divine Revelation to predict the specifics of that, because that is not the issue. Hence, again, "kingdom shall rise against kingdom, and nation against nation, but the end is not yet," and "it is not for you to know times or seasons."

IOW, whereas the fall of Jerusalem, as marking the end of the OT Cov and the fullest ushering in of its fulfllment in the New, is an epic event in salvation history, there is no merit in knowing what went on in a temporal sense in that ordeal, in terms of how long the war the war took, which armies did what, etc. THAT is not the issue, just as the futurists' endless speculaiton about HOW humanity will annihilate themselves in WWIII is useless.

For, once humanity becomes incurable spiritually (saving the remnant of Gentiles and the fullness of the Jews), their self-destruction is the intrinsic fruit. Knowing how that destruction plays out temporally has no intrinsic worth with regards to the meaning of human history. The entire issue is rather how humanity will come to BE in an incurable apostasy. But that, again, does not relate to "literal times and seasons and kingdoms and nations." Hence, Public Revelation in the CC can never contain anything about specific Gentile societies or nations. Geography is not the issue. It is the spiritual stages of Church history, in relationship to the whole of Salvation history, that forms the brunt of the apocalyptic mystery.

So, to conclude, knowing that "well, in 67 AD, the Roman empire came a first time and sent 30,000 troops, and they knocked out the eastern wall of teh city, but at that time, about 50,000 Christian Jews escaped. And then in 69 AD, Rome attacked the other wall with 20,000 soldier, the attempt was unsuccessfuly, but finally, in 70 AD, Rome finally got it right, but it took FIVE months." is USELESS. God judged Israel, even if in mercy, for failing to recognize the coming of their Messiah, and as a consequence, the Temple was destroyed, and the Jews were dispersed. OK, fine. But knowing the earthly details of the battle scenarios is not of much INTRINSIC value. The only value they might have is to point to a greater SPIRITUAL fuflillment, hence, I repeat, Spiritual historicism is of far greater importance INTRINSICALLY.

Dr. Jack Bauer
September 30th 2007, 11:32 PM
Umm, I need to reclarify here. I did not at all mean to imply that the NT Cov is "temporal". No, no no! What I was referring to was the specifiic "FIVE MONTHS" that was the duration of the war in Jerusalem's fall. Of course, the fall of Jerusalem and the ushering in of the Catholic Church is by no means temporal or non-essential. GOd forbid!

What i Mean is, for Scripture to get into exactly how all the "physical and 'temporal'" details of how Jerusalem fell. Hence, by "temporal", I do not mean "temporary" but rather, the superficial events of human history, like the rising and falling of Gentile kingdoms, the LITERAL "times of seasons" of things. For example, that Mel Gibson movie about Braveheart. That was a "temporal" event of history,and it would be pointless for Divine Revelation to predict the specifics of that, because that is not the issue. Hence, again, "kingdom shall rise against kingdom, and nation against nation, but the end is not yet," and "it is not for you to know times or seasons."

IOW, whereas the fall of Jerusalem, as marking the end of the OT Cov and the fullest ushering in of its fulfllment in the New, is an epic event in salvation history, there is no merit in knowing what went on in a temporal sense in that ordeal, in terms of how long the war the war took, which armies did what, etc. THAT is not the issue, just as the futurists' endless speculaiton about HOW humanity will annihilate themselves in WWIII is useless.

For, once humanity becomes incurable spiritually (saving the remnant of Gentiles and the fullness of the Jews), their self-destruction is the intrinsic fruit. Knowing how that destruction plays out temporally has no intrinsic worth with regards to the meaning of human history. The entire issue is rather how humanity will come to BE in an incurable apostasy. But that, again, does not relate to "literal times and seasons and kingdoms and nations." Hence, Public Revelation in the CC can never contain anything about specific Gentile societies or nations. Geography is not the issue. It is the spiritual stages of Church history, in relationship to the whole of Salvation history, that forms the brunt of the apocalyptic mystery.

So, to conclude, knowing that "well, in 67 AD, the Roman empire came a first time and sent 30,000 troops, and they knocked out the eastern wall of teh city, but at that time, about 50,000 Christian Jews escaped. And then in 69 AD, Rome attacked the other wall with 20,000 soldier, the attempt was unsuccessfuly, but finally, in 70 AD, Rome finally got it right, but it took FIVE months." is USELESS. God judged Israel, even if in mercy, for failing to recognize the coming of their Messiah, and as a consequence, the Temple was destroyed, and the Jews were dispersed. OK, fine. But knowing the earthly details of the battle scenarios is not of much INTRINSIC value. The only value they might have is to point to a greater SPIRITUAL fuflillment, hence, I repeat, Spiritual historicism is of far greater importance INTRINSICALLY.
Preterism is not just about the fall of Jerusalem. You know that, right?

eschaton
October 1st 2007, 11:44 AM
IMO, if anything caused the "undoing the Christian faith altogether," (your words) it was the violence done to the kingdom of God by those who want to change it into a human institution.