My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

[Homie]

This has probably been discussed before, but I've never heard any explanation or participated in a discussion about it. So here goes :

Why did Jesus say "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" when he was fully aware of Gods divine plan. And if he himself was God it seems even more strange that he yelled out to himself a question of why he had forsaken himself....uhh or something like that.

Has anybody ever figured out a plausible reason for this?
The whole passage:
Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Mat 27:47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias.

And "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani" seems a lot more similar to Elias (as also said the people watching), yet it is followed with "that is to say, My God, my God..."
Why?

A link to the discussion at christianforums http://www.christianforums.com/threads/36012-1.html

[ItalianGold]

I would be interested in a discussion of this topic. If memory serves me, this incident is only recorded in one gospel. But, it has always puzzled me.

[Homie]

2 gospels, Mark and Matthew

[$cirisme]

It is there to show how the trinity has been ripped apart because of our sins.

He bore the punishment for us--separation from God.


to himself a question of why he had forsaken himself....uhh or something like that.

Either you believe in oneness, or you don't understand the concept of the trinity. :smile:

[Sheepdog]

simple answer? the question was probably rhetorical. it wasn't meant as questioning God, but was likely intended to make an important point to the listener.

in fact, i have read somewhere that it was an allusion to a prophesy. in fact, thinking about it now, it reminds me of Isaiah 53 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=is+53&x=0&y=0&NIV_version=yes&language=english), which was a glaring prophesy of Jesus.

[Sheepdog]

Found it! it is an allusion to Psalm 22:

My God, my God, why have You forsaken me? Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning. O my God, I cry by day, but You do not answer; And by night, but I have no rest. Yet You are holy, O You who are enthroned upon the praises of Israel. Psalm 22:1-3.

[b488]

My understanding (admittedly very limited) of Jesus' cry at this point was not a cry of desperation, but a deliberate "crying out" of the first verse of a Psalm so that its listeners would consider this song in its entirety. It is not only composed of verses about abject suffering but also about vindication for the sufferer and also reconciliation by God as a result of that suffering.



All the ends of the world shall remember and turn to the L_RD and all the nations will worship before you.


For lack of better words, the timing, manner and other circumstances that happened concurrently with Jesus' cry indicates strongly that it was a pronouncement of a sign; the fufillment of a (messianic) prophecy and the expectation of spiritual fufillment as a result thereof.

I hope this in someway helps.

ciao! :thumb:

[Homie]

cirisme
Either you believe in oneness, or you don't understand the concept of the trinity.
Has anyone ever understood the trinity?

[GrayPilgrim]

Homie:
Has anybody ever figured out a plausible reason for this?
The whole passage:
Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Mat 27:47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias.

And "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani" seems a lot more similar to Elias (as also said the people watching), yet it is followed with "that is to say, My God, my God..."
Why?

A link to the discussion at christianforums http://www.christianforums.com/threads/36012-1.html

I am restricting myself to only the last bit. The resaon tehy included the translation wsa that the audiences that the Gospels were intended for did not speak Aramaic, especially Mark. As to the confusion between the two. Rememebr that Elijah is the Anglicanization of Eliyah (Elias comes from the Greek form of the name).

So put Eli next to Eliyah in the mouth of a man barely able to breath let alone speak properly.

GP

[jpholding]

Homie:

Has anyone ever understood the trinity?

(Raising hand.) Ooh! Ooh! Mr. Kotter! I do! :smile: Want a link to my explanation?

As for the topic at hand, I have on this the same answer as b488: Jesus' cry was an eschatological sign, not merely a prayer, and is an allusion to the whole of Ps. 22, including its triumphant ending.

[jimbo]

He-Who-Cannot-Be-Named,

Do you have a rationaliz.., oops, explanation for why different gospels put different last words into Jesus' mouth when he was crucified?

Thanks

Dave the J Man

[GrayPilgrim]

jimbo:
He-Who-Cannot-Be-Named,

Do you have a rationaliz.., oops, explanation for why different gospels put different last words into Jesus' mouth when he was crucified?

Thanks

Dave the J Man

Jingel-heimer,

Your shenanigans and hubristic tone is not only unnecessary, but unhelpful for honest dialogue. Because none of them give an exhaustive list of his words. None of them say “These are the exact last word of Jesus before he died.” If they all agreed you would then rationalize, “See these four accounts are obviously concocted stories.” Each of the four had a different emphasis and thus included those words from teh cross which supported their purpose, like John's desire to write "so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Sonof God, and that by believing you may havelife in his name," (20:31). Therefore, John did not include say the account of the virgin birth for it had already been covered in Matthew and Mark and he had a different purpose in the writing of this Gospel. To expect them to be the same woudl be require complete redundancy which would mean we only needed on Gospel and not four. Thus your question is intellectually dishonest and demonstrates a nack for pedantic questions without much positive addition to the discussion at hand.

GP

[Homie]

But it is true,

Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

These are both Jesus's very last words and they do not match
:eek: :eek:

What is up with that?

[Jaltus]

Actually, this is pretty easy. Both Luke and Mark talk about Jesus "calling out in a loud voice." However, this is a separate act from what He says (namely "Father...spirit."). In the Greek, you will notice that there is an aorist participle for calling out, and then a verb of speaking.

What Jesus called out was "it is finished," which in Greek is TETELSTAI.

Carson in his commentary in the PNTC series says that John was likely the only one close enough to hear the loud cry.

Also, recall that John was written to fill in the gaps of Mark (per Bauckham), so it tends to fit in quite well.

[jpholding]

http://www.tektonics.org/crosswords.html

If by "rationalization" you mean, "an explanation rooted in the literary and social context, which pedantic literalists will not accept," the answer is yes. :smile: And it is more or less what others have already said.

[phantaz sunlyk]

**8** say hey; i just wanted to add that while i agree with J.P. that Christ's citing of the opening verse of the Psalm would have entailed the calling to mind of the end, this fact must not detract from the real and actual pain and forsakeness that Christ felt at that time. the two views (despair and vindication) are not mutually exclusive. too often Christians, with the best intentions in the world, seem to try and play down the humanity of Christ in order to 'make sense' of his being divine at the same time. in this case, it often seems to amount to imagining two different persons--a human one that felt pain, and a divine one 'on cruise control' (and no, i don't attribute this unreflected position to Holding).
i think we must attribute a fully human psychology to Jesus, wherein he phenomenologically experienced (via his human emotional construct) actual separation from his Father.
this leads to Phil. 2:6f; though in the form of God, he 'emptied himself ... even to death on a cross, therefore God highly exalted him ...'. also worth calling to mind is the scene(s) of the throne of glory in Revelation, with Christ standing in the center of the throne 'as a Lamb slain' (= 'God rules the world by suffering through and for it, and in this way reveals his glory), alongside John's equating Christ's being 'lifted up' (= 'crucified') with his glorification, and the person of the Incarnate Son as the revelation of the Father ('we have seen his glory').
hence Christ as utterly helpless is the ultimate revelation of Almighty God: the translation of Love into human being loving 'to the end'.
just my two cents; peace.

[Homie]

JaltusActually, this is pretty easy. Both Luke and Mark talk about Jesus "calling out in a loud voice." However, this is a separate act from what He says (namely "Father...spirit.").
Mark and Matthew both mention Jesus calling out "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?", afterwards both gospels mention he cries out loud and then dies, but does not mention what Jesus says in this final cry. Now the other gospels (Luke and John) don't mention "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?". But it seems that they are filling in what was omitted in Mark and Matthew, the final cry. Here lies the problem, the final cry differs from Luke and John.

Summary: Mark and Matthew does not omit "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" but does omit Jesus's final cry, however they both mention that he did in fact cry out one last time before he died. John and Luke have omitted "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?", but both mention the words of Jesus's last cry, so the gospels fulfill each other, right? Yes, if only the last cry in Luke and John did not differ, but they do:

Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

[Homie]

I read your link jpholding, if I understand it correctly Jesus's last words were:
"It is finished. Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.

The misunderstanding lies in the fact that John was close enough to hear Jesus's very last words "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit" and he said that right after he said "It is finished" which was recorded by Luke as his very last words. Am I correct?

[jpholding]

02-22-2003 @ 01:45 PM
Homie:

I read your link jpholding, if I understand it correctly Jesus's last words were:
"It is finished. Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.

The misunderstanding lies in the fact that John was close enough to hear Jesus's very last words "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit" and he said that right after he said "It is finished" which was recorded by Luke as his very last words. Am I correct?

This would be correct. A lot of this has to do with who was where and had access to what. To say nothing of that a) John is probably writing (in part) to supplement Mark's record; b) these folks just didn't have the physical resources to write down every last detail. Paper was the equal to $200 for 10 sheets and you very much had to plan carefully and select what you wanted to write. :smile:

[The Curtmudgeon]

02-21-2003 @ 11:46 PM
phantaz sunlyk:

say hey; i just wanted to add that while i agree with J.P. that Christ's citing of the opening verse of the Psalm would have entailed the calling to mind of the end, this fact must not detract from the real and actual pain and forsakeness that Christ felt at that time. the two views (despair and vindication) are not mutually exclusive.

This is certainly the way that I was taught it: Jesus the man was in real agony and felt the full turning away of God as He (Jesus) took on all the sins of the world for us, while at the same time Jesus the Christ, the Son of God was teaching the observers, and us through the reading of the Word, a vital lesson.

But not just the opening and end of Psalm 22; the whole Psalm is David's prophetic description of the Crucifixion (not denying that David may have had some other calamity on his mind when he wrote it, but that the Spirit used his condition and feelings to give us this prophetic photograph):



1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
2 O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
23 Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28 For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations.
29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.


While the Roman soldiers and Greeks in the crowd would have been clueless to all this, I do believe that Jesus was deliberately giving the Jews a pointer to go look up in the Scriptures that would show that this very occasion was specified in God's Holy Word, and that therefore they needed to pay close attention to why it was and what purpose it served.

The (praises be, that it was "declared unto a people that shall be born!") Curtmudgeon