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eklypised
October 25th 2007, 02:31 PM
The story is they most of them were matyers. Is their any historical evidence for this?
and what would you say to these claims


1. Peter (aka Simon, Cephas).

"Beheaded by Nero?" No, not really. This legend was dreamed up by the mid-2nd century pope Anicetus (156-166) when he became locked in a conflict with the venerable Polycarp of Smyrna. Polycarp had tried to win the argument (over the dating of Easter) by insisting that he spoke with the authority of the apostle John. In response, Anicetus staked a claim to Peter, and Peter, "Prince of the Apostles", trumps John.
2nd century texts known as the "Clementines" had made Peter the "first Bishop of Rome" and 3rd century invention gave him a 25-year pontificate – which made it a tad tricky for him to have died at the hands of Nero but, hey, this is "tradition."
3rd century Church Father Origen dreamed up a colourful flourish: Peter, feeling himself unworthy to be crucified the same way as his Lord, chose option 'B' – crucifixion upside down!
2. James, son of Zebedee.

Acts 12.1,2 says simply:
"Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth his hands to vex certain of the church. And he killed James the brother of John with the sword."
Later legend adds the truly extraordinary nonsense that the Roman officer guarding James converted on the spot and elected to be beheaded beside him! Even later fabrication has James traipsing around northern Spain before he dashes back to Judaea for martyrdom.
3. John, son of Zebedee.

This guy has to be kept alive long enough to take care of Mary, lead the church in Ephesus, write the Book of Revelation and write his own gospel. He even survives being boiled in oil and is given a natural death!
4. Andrew, brother of Peter.

Pious invention gives Andrew a wonderful career covering everywhere from Scythia to Greece, from Asia Minor to Thrace. This guy, it seems, took option 'C' on the crucifixion menu: on an x-shaped cross. Apparently this allowed him to continue preaching for 2 days.
5. Philip.

Fable places this guy in Phrygia, Carthage and Asia Minor. The fairy tale has a proconsul crucifying him for converting his wife. Perhaps the love feast got a bit out of hand.
6. Bartholomew (Nathanael)

What a traveller – India, Persia, Armenia, Ethiopia and southern Arabia! Miraculously he managed to get himself crucified (flayed alive and beheaded!) in both India and Armenia. Pretty impressive stuff. Even when dead his bits got about: a church in Rome claimed most of his corpse but 11th century Canterbury did a roaring trade with his arm! His emblem is the flaying knife. Cool.
7. Matthew (Levi)

This guy has to be kept alive long enough to write his gospel – at least 20 years after the supposed death of Christ. Credited with 15 years in Jerusalem, then missions to Persia and Ethiopia and, of course, martyrdom in both places. According to Medieval iconography he worn spectacles, the better to count his tax money.
8. Thomas Didymus (the Twin)

Another grand traveller, seen everywhere from Parthia to Kerala in south India. 4th century invention, appropriately enough, gives this 'twin' 2 martyrdoms, one in Persia and one in India. He even gets a burial in Syria to boot! Yet another resting place, Mylapore, was claimed by the Portuguese in 16th century. Most famous for his "doubt", Thomas inspired a whole raft of pious flimflam: the Acts of Thomas (he built a palace for an Indian king, would you believe), the Apocalypse of Thomas, the Gospel of Thomas, and the Infant Gospel of Thomas.
Now, have you still got any doubts ...?
9. James son of Aphaeus.

The myth-makers really go to town for this guy. Thrown down over 100 feet from the pinnacle of the Temple by "scribes and Pharisees", he actually survived only to be stoned, have his brains dashed out with a fuller’s club and have his body "sawn asunder" – all this at the age of 90!
10. Jude/Thaddeus /Lebbaeus /Daddaeus

Either a serious clubbing or crucifixion for this mixed up guy in the city of Edessa or Persia. Apparently his fan-club suffered because his name sounded too much like Judas.
11. Simon the Canaanite/ the Zealot.

Invention came late for this guy. When it did, it was a beauty – crucifixion in Persia and also crucifixion thousands of miles away in Britain. He also managed to preach in Africa. Quite an act to follow.
12. Matthias.

Fantasy sends this guy to Syria, Cappadocia, the shores of the Caspian and the "City of Cannibals" (Acts of Andrew and Matthias). Death by burning. Also death in Jerusalem by stoning – and beheading. Really just makes up the numbers, sometimes merging with Matthew and sometimes swapped out to let Paul into "the twelve."
13. Judas, son of James.

Nothing yet. Feeling inspired?
14. Levi, son of Alphæus.

Not yet.
Mark (John Mark).

Though neither Clement of Alexandria (?153-215), nor Origen of Alexandria (182-251) seem to have noticed, Eusebius of Caesarea (c.263-339) relays the news that the apostle Mark had been "first bishop" of Alexandria and had suffered martyrdom in the "eighth year of Nero." This would have been 61 AD – rendering the apostle dead before the death of Peter whose memoirs Mark supposedly wrote up as the Gospel of Mark. "Dragged to death", or maybe not. His bones – well, someone's bones – turned up in 9th century Venice.
Luke.

"Hanged on an olive tree." Or, "lived to the age of 84 and died unmarried." Body parts claimed by both Padua and Constantinople.
Paul.

"Beheaded by Nero." No, not really, but legend tells us he shared the same fate as Peter, even dying on the same day. Pious romances scribbled between the 2nd and 4th centuries – Acts of Paul, the Apocalypse of Paul, the Martyrdom of Paul and the Acts of Paul and Thecla – provide all the fabulous nonsense you could ever wish for.

It appears that this post has been plagarised from another website. We treat plagarism very seriously at tWeb. Do not plagarise, or you will be afflicted by all of the deaths attributed to the disciples.

RedPill
October 26th 2007, 01:07 AM
And this is in Apologetics 301 because....?

wolper
October 26th 2007, 01:38 AM
I think the more important observation is that the disciples dying martyrs' deaths for their beliefs -if that is what they did- does in no way imply that they had seen the risen Jesus, or that they maintained they did in the face of death.

lilpixieofterror
October 26th 2007, 01:59 AM
I think the more important observation is that the disciples dying martyrs' deaths for their beliefs -if that is what they did- does in no way imply that they had seen the risen Jesus, or that they maintained they did in the face of death.

It seems you have never heard about the physical evidence that does work for the possibility of Peter. Let me introduce you to it. Did you know that it is believed the grave of Peter has been found and that the bones fit the discriptions we'd expect to find if he died in the way he traditionally died?

wolper
October 26th 2007, 12:57 PM
It seems you have never heard about the physical evidence that does work for the possibility of Peter. Let me introduce you to it. Did you know that it is believed the grave of Peter has been found and that the bones fit the discriptions we'd expect to find if he died in the way he traditionally died?No I didn't know this, but then I fail to see what this evidence has to do with my point. How would Peter's remains indicate that he was martyred for knowing that Jesus had risen, rather than that he believed this?

lilpixieofterror
October 26th 2007, 01:18 PM
No I didn't know this, but then I fail to see what this evidence has to do with my point. How would Peter's remains indicate that he was martyred for knowing that Jesus had risen, rather than that he believed this?

So why are you bringing up their deaths if it doesn't really matter? Do you have any evidence to show that Jesus did not rise from the dead?

eklypised
October 26th 2007, 03:48 PM
This aint about whether they saw the risen Jesus, but if they were really matyers. How do we know for sure? The Bible only tells about James.
well and the first maryter Stephen.

wolper
October 26th 2007, 03:56 PM
So why are you bringing up their deaths if it doesn't really matter? I didn't; eklypised did. And also quite a few Christians I've conversed with. Some of them even stated that the main reason for their belief is that the disciples did not recant their beliefs in the face of death; I'm trying to show how I find that utterly unconvincing.

Do you have any evidence to show that Jesus did not rise from the dead?The general observation that dead things usually stay dead.

Btw you didn't answer my question.

Bill the Cat
October 26th 2007, 03:58 PM
I'm moving this to Church History, as that is much more appropriate a venue for this sort of discussion

rogue06
October 26th 2007, 04:16 PM
...9. James son of Aphaeus.

The myth-makers really go to town for this guy. Thrown down over 100 feet from the pinnacle of the Temple by "scribes and Pharisees", he actually survived only to be stoned, have his brains dashed out with a fuller's club and have his body "sawn asunder" – all this at the age of 90!

If I'm not mistaken I think You're a bit confused here. You seem to have mixed this James up with James the brother of Jesus who headed the Jerusalem Church, and who's death is recounted by the Jewish historian Josephus. I'm going from memory here so I could be wrong.

eklypised
October 26th 2007, 04:28 PM
^^These arent my ideas. A skeptic posted this in refute of the disciples being mayters.

Paintbucket
November 7th 2007, 10:08 PM
I haven't seen any historical evidence for any of this. But why does it matter how the disciples died?

One Bad Pig
November 8th 2007, 07:40 PM
The story is they most of them were matyers. Is their any historical evidence for this?
and what would you say to these claims

I'd say that copying and pasting from a somewhere else (http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/apostles.html) without citation is plagiarism.

Read the early church historians (Eusebius would be a good start) to get a better perspective than some skeptic who doesn't even think Jesus existed. What do you mean by "historical evidence"?

Amazing Rando
November 9th 2007, 11:41 PM
The demise of James, brother of John, is recored in Acts, while the death of Peter (by crucifixion) is strongly implied in the last chapter of John's gospel. Beyond that, we have the very early statement in 1 Clement chapter 5 that says that Peter and Paul "gave their witness" (an early euphamism for died a martyr's death. Beyond that, the history is a little less certain.

timspong
November 10th 2007, 07:45 AM
Foxes book of martyrs gives a good account of the best that christian tradition & evidence can offer in reference to the apostles deaths.



BTW "disciples" are any followers of Jesus including us today, the term "Christs apostles" is more accurate.

Here is the link to the relevant page of foxes book of martyrs.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/foxe/martyrs/files/fox101.htm


BTW I bought a new copy of it and I was very heartened to see that they update it each year and include recently martyred Christians.