Will Satan really be tortured for eternity in the end? Or will the battle continue?

[Mydel7]

I'm interested to hear everybody's opinion on this statement. I myself have my own conclusions and will back them up with scripture but first I'd like to hear some other points of view and see how close or far off I really am.
Any kind of response would be appreciated but I'd prefer some kind of evidence or Scripture to back up your own feelings. Thankyou.
-Mydel7

[Gavin]

Revelation21:10

"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

[dizzle]

Yep Gavin, that is what I was going to say.

[Mydel7]

I am so glad that you brought this piece of Scripture up. This phrase "forever and ever" does not actually mean eternity. In the Greek version of this scripture, the phrase forever and ever reads "eis tous aionas ton aionon", which literally means "into the ages of the ages." The Greek nouns aionas and aionon are plural forms of the Greek aion, which simply means an "eon" or "age." Which ofcourse as you probably know refers to and indefinite period of time and does not convey the idea of eternity.

I'd also like to point out that this Greek phrase is used a bunch of times in Scripture including Gal. 1:5; Phi. 4:20; I Tim. 1:17; II Tim. 4:18; Heb. 13:21 and a few others as well. Most peopl associate this phrase (forever and ever) to mean eternity, but some scholars have realized that this connotation wasn't present in the original Koine ("common") Greek of the New Testament.

The most likely correct understanding of "into the ages of the ages" shows that Satan, as well as his followers (Rev.14:11) will be refined in the lake of fire for an indeterminate, probably lengthy, but finite, amount of time.

Also one last thing... the term day and night in Revelation 10 confirms this theory, because time as we understand it does not exist in eternity, meaning that this punishment is not eternal.

[Gavin]

That is certainly a very unique interpretation of the greek words, "into the ages of the ages". I do not wish to really get into a debate over the phrase here (maybe Jaltus will comment, I do not know enough greek to speek knowledgeably one way or the other), but either way I do not see that the reference to "day and night" proves that Satan will be punished for a finite amount of time. I think the primary idea behind "day and night" is that the torment is incessant, unceasing. Obviously hell will not have literal days and nights.

The incessant nature of the torment would seem to support the view that it is eternal, as I see it.

Either way, you have some pretty clear other references to a hell that is eternal in Scripture.


Mark 9
42"And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.[3] 45And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.[4] 47And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where
" 'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'[5] 49Everyone will be salted with fire.

II Thessalonians 1
6God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power 10on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

It is an interesting topic, thanks for bringing it up.:smile:

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

Mydel7:
"forever and ever" does not actually mean eternity

I'm not suggesting that I accept the doctrine of eternal torment. However, I want to ask: How WOULD the Greek language express the concept of "forever," if not by using aionios or some derivative of aion? I get the impression that you're actually not allowing the Bible to be capable of saying "forever", so I'd be interested in your answer.

Glenn

[Mydel7]

Well Theonomy, that is actually an extremely good question. It would seem to me that the word aion can be translated either way, though the word literally means "age". The problem here seems to be that this same phrase is translated differently throughout the New Testament. For example: Matt. 13:40 " as the weeds are pulled up and burned, so it will be at the end of the AGE" or 13:49 "This is how it will be at the end of the AGE."
Those were two examples of the aion being translated age, but in Rev. 11:15 "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdome of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign FOR EVER AND EVER."

Those are instances of the same word, aion, being translated differently throughout the New Testament. Also, if the word aion means in any way a kind of eternity, then why does it have a plural? I'm not trying to convince you that this torture of Satan is or isn't eternal, but I'm using this subject as an example of some of the giant mistranslations in our english bible. It's also something to think about.

To answer you Gavin, when I was reading the passages of Scripture you listed, I got the impression it was stating the fact that Hell itself is eternal. Just because Hell lasts forever, it doesn't mean that the souls who go there will be there forever or that Satan will be tortured there forever. (Though I personally believe that all souls who do go to Hell will stay there.)

Once again, I'd like to state that these are all just things I've stumbled upon and I just want to get some varying opinions on the subject. Any other kinds of responses would be greatly appreciated.

-Mydel7

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

Mydel7:
For example: Matt. 13:40 " as the weeds are pulled up and burned, so it will be at the end of the AGE" or 13:49 "This is how it will be at the end of the AGE."
Those were two examples of the aion being translated age, but in Rev. 11:15 "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdome of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign FOR EVER AND EVER."

Those are instances of the same word, aion, being translated differently throughout the New Testament

Precisely. I'm assuming that you acknowledge the genuine difference in meaning in those two verses. In the one case, the Greek presents us with a "the age," and i think we would agree it refersto the end of a finite time period. However, in the second verse you refer to the Greek has "unto the ages of the ages." Now, this is the same as Revelation 20:10, which you say refers to a temporary time period. Yet clearly the example you quoted suggests otherwise.

With respect, I think you've demonstrated the point. When you denied that "unto the ages of the ages" means "forever," I challenged you by asking you to show us how the Bible COULD say forever. Now you've apparently said that "unto the ages of the ages" CAN mean forever. This is a step away from your first post. So my next question is this: Can you show any example of "unto the ages of the ages" where the meaning is NOT forever?

Glenn

[Mydel7]

You bring up an excellent point there, and I'm glad you've asked that question because I've gotten to be challenged a little bit, and I enjoy it. I did some searching through the scriptures and I was able to find only two small instances where the "unto the ages of the ages" may be a finite amount of time.
Jer. 7:7, "then I will let you dwell in this place, the land that I gave to your fathers for ever and ever ("unto the ages of the ages").

There is another instance in Jer. 25:5 but it's basically a repeat of Jer. 7:7

In this case it would seem to me that unto the ages of the ages is a limited amount of time because 1. the land will not last for eternity and 2. it will not be ours for eternity either. Eventually Christ will return and rule the entire Earth and the heavens.

Now it would seem to me (and I only know a little bit of Greek) that there is no Greek word for eternity and that "unto the ages of the ages" may be the phrase used by them to represent eternity. But the fact still remains that we can't be a hundred percent sure of what is meant here exactly. But you know what, we'll all find out in the end won't we!

-Mydel7

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

Mydel7:
Now it would seem to me (and I only know a little bit of Greek) that there is no Greek word for eternity and that "unto the ages of the ages" may be the phrase used by them to represent eternity. But the fact still remains that we can't be a hundred percent sure of what is meant here exactly. But you know what, we'll all find out in the end won't we!

I certainly appreciate the tone of humility and graciousness you're showing. I want to push the question a little more precisely: In this book (Revelation), does the author use the phrase more than once? If so, what does it mean when he uses it elsewhere (e.g. 11:15)?

Glenn

[HeDied4all]

WOW! What an interesting topic, but to even toy with the idea that satan will get to have another go at mocking God or decieving God's children is unBiblical to say the least. I for one trust that when God said the enemy is defeated through Jesus Christ, believe that God meant we won't be hearing from satan ever again. True spirit knows true spirit, what is the Holy Spirit telling you about it?

[dizzle]

I have another issue to raise, Mydel had said there is no time in the eternal state. If we are resurected in physical bodies, and we are, time is a function of physicality, and psychics suggests that it is, then there will be time. There is no passage that says there will not be. I think that is something we assume.

[johnnybanano]

02-19-2003 @ 07:54 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=19111#post19111)
Mydel7:



To answer you Gavin, when I was reading the passages of Scripture you listed, I got the impression it was stating the fact that Hell itself is eternal. Just because Hell lasts forever, it doesn't mean that the souls who go there will be there forever or that Satan will be tortured there forever. (Though I personally believe that all souls who do go to Hell will stay there.)


-Mydel7

or

Just because Hell may last forever, it doesn't mean that Satan nor the souls who go there will be tortured forever.

Very good discussion here people, I admire the academic ambience of Glenn's posts, it is of a respect and consideration not common 'round these parts.

I am interested in what Mickiel would have to add to this thread.

[mickiel]

Yesterday @ 09:22 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=111260#post111260)
johnnybanano:



or

Just because Hell may last forever, it doesn't mean that Satan nor the souls who go there will be tortured forever.

Very good discussion here people, I admire the academic ambience of Glenn's posts, it is of a respect and consideration not common 'round these parts.

I am interested in what Mickiel would have to add to this thread.

The bible certainly seems to paint a terrible picture for satans future, but my quesses, and they are pure speculation because i just do not know, are as follows; if satan is not a perminent being, or if he was created to do his thing temporairly, then God can simply will him out of existance when his time is up. If satan was Lucifer before his change, then i believe there is a possibility he will be restored back to Lucifer during the restoration of all things. I believe that because after careful study of Ezk. 28, God must have done something to him because Lucifer was annointed, perfect, sinless and SEALED by God himself, nothing can break a seal of God, but God. I think it was nessccerary for the plan of salvation to have evil involved, or something the total oppisite of God, therefore evil had to have a represenitive, another god so to speak, and that being had to be very powerful, under this senerio, if it is true, Lucifer was perhaps drafted by God to become satan, i doubt very seriously if he voulenteered. God has the power to change Lucifers mind and nature, and certainly to change him back.

I do not accept that satan is a victum of evolution, or the belief that evil just evolved within him. Many people accept the evil created itself, snook past God and jumped into satan, all on its own. Sin and evil do not have evolution, or reality independant of God. It is not possible for great power to come into being on its own. John 3:3, destroys that belief, anything that has come into being, did so by the hand of Christ. So if Jesus created satan to be a destroyer from his beginning, then satan may not even be a ligitimate being that is actually real., i see no reason to keep something like this around forever, God is not a waster of time.

satan may be the equivilent of a spiritual robot, just some evil thing that will eventually be no more, there are scriptures that indicate that when we actually see satan, many will not believe that what we see could have caused all that damage, a clear indication that satan is LESS than what we think. I used to think he was an actual dragon with seven heads, i guess i kind of out grew that notion.

Finally i think , as always, the nature of God must be considered. I do not see God co-existing with evil for all eternity, in my understanding of his nature, he wouldnot do such a thing. Evil and misery cannot exist forever, they will come to an end, i do not accept eternal sin, evil or misery as the will of God, naturally i certainly do not believe he would torture humans forever, that would be insanity, God is not insane, mankinds views of him are. God will simply not allow anything misrable to be eternal, that is just utter nonsense. The very nature of God is proof that only good things will have an eternity.

[RevSteve45]

The bible certainly seems to paint a terrible picture for satans future, but my quesses, and they are pure speculation because i just do not know, are as follows;

Mickiel,

That is exactly what you are doing, that is, speculating. There is, as far as I can tell, no basis for these speculations, other than your imagination. If the Lake of Fire anthe punishment of souls, including Satan, is not eternal, then why should we believe that Heaven, and the rewards of the saints, are eternal. God is an eternal being. It only makes sense that the rewards & punishments he metes out, are eternal as well. Unless you believe in purgatory, that is??

Finally i think , as always, the nature of God must be considered. I do not see God co-existing with evil for all eternity, in my understanding of his nature, he wouldnot do such a thing.

Do you even know the meaning of "death" in the Bible? It is separation from God. If it is the Second Death being spoken of, than the separation from God is eternal in the Lake of Fire. God is not "co-existing with evil." It is separated from Him, by an impassable gulf. God has looked upon evil for thousands of years now. He does not "fellowship" with evil. He does not "co-exist" with it. He tolerates it, and eventually punishes it

In His Service,
Steve

[mickiel]

Yesterday @ 09:03 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=113797#post113797)
RevSteve45:



Mickiel,

That is exactly what you are doing, that is, speculating. There is, as far as I can tell, no basis for these speculations, other than your imagination. If the Lake of Fire anthe punishment of souls, including Satan, is not eternal, then why should we believe that Heaven, and the rewards of the saints, are eternal. God is an eternal being. It only makes sense that the rewards & punishments he metes out, are eternal as well. Unless you believe in purgatory, that is??

Fair enough, i understand you. The nature of God is essential in understanding his plans, what he will do. I encourage you to eximine God, at his core, his being. Examine his revealed nature as recorded in Galations 5:22, these fruit of the Spirit, ARE Gods actual nature. Love, joy, peace, look at all the others. GOODNESS, gentleness, i do not envison these allowing misery to be eternal. A true vison of God is essential in understanding his holiness, it is just not possible for God to give perminance to evil or its offshoots.






Do you even know the meaning of "death" in the Bible? It is separation from God. If it is the Second Death being spoken of, than the separation from God is eternal in the Lake of Fire. God is not "co-existing with evil." It is separated from Him, by an impassable gulf. God has looked upon evil for thousands of years now. He does not "fellowship" with evil. He does not "co-exist" with it. He tolerates it, and eventually punishes it

In His Service,
Steve

The second death, is the death of the first death, meaning God will not tolerate misery or pain forever. His goal is , or excuse me, will be life and eternal happiness, nothing can stop him. God is perfection personified, his will is unaltered, it cannot be bargained with, cannot leave him and return void, or useless. Useless is a description of death or pain. In Isaiah 45: 22-25, this is revealed, everything will submit to his will, all he desires will be done, his own holy vow to himself, i will believe nothingelse to be of importance than his vow. ALL the offspring of Isreal, or all of mankind, will be saved. Christ death will not be counted as void, 1 Corinth. 1:17, Rom. 5:18, justifies life for ever man born. This is the true mystery of the gospel, salvation is life for all.

[nonbeliever]

I'm interested to hear everybody's opinion on this statement. I myself have my own conclusions and will back them up with scripture but first I'd like to hear some other points of view and see how close or far off I really am.
Any kind of response would be appreciated but I'd prefer some kind of evidence or Scripture to back up your own feelings. Thankyou.
-Mydel7

If damnation is not eternal then christians are not saved.

[nonbeliever]

If damnation is not eternal then christians are not saved.
Personally, I don't believe that God would damn anybody to eternal torment. this would be torture, not punishment. Eternal punishment for a persons "sins" committed during a lifespan of perhaps 75 years is unjust. To say that God would be so unjust is absurd. It is for this reason, as well as others, that I do not believe in christianity. In order to believe in christianity one must believe that one is "saved" for having "accepted Jesus," whatever that means. Being "saved" means that one is guaranteed a place in "heaven" for all eternity. Some branches of christianity teach that one goes to "heaven" when one dies if they've "accepted Jesus," others teach that one will be rewarded for having "accepted Jesus" at the "last day," when everyone who ever lived will be "judged." Because the christian reward is eternal and final, the punishment of "non-believers" must also be final and eternal. for this reason I do not believe in the basic christian doctrine of "salvation by grace."
I can't help but notice the fact that christians are unable to agree with each other on the correct interpretation of scripture...

[nonbeliever]

If damnation is not eternal then christians are not saved.
Personally, I don't believe that God would damn anybody to eternal torment. this would be torture, not punishment. Eternal punishment for a persons "sins" committed during a lifespan of perhaps 75 years is unjust. To say that God would be so unjust is absurd. It is for this reason, as well as others, that I do not believe in christianity. In order to believe in christianity one must believe that one is "saved" for having "accepted Jesus," whatever that means. Being "saved" means that one is guaranteed a place in "heaven" for all eternity. Some branches of christianity teach that one goes to "heaven" when one dies if they've "accepted Jesus," others teach that one will be rewarded for having "accepted Jesus" at the "last day," when everyone who ever lived will be "judged." Because the christian reward is eternal and final, the punishment of "non-believers" must also be final and eternal. for this reason I do not believe in the basic christian doctrine of "salvation by grace."
I can't help but notice the fact that christians are unable to agree with each other on the correct interpretation of scripture...

[FlimFlamboyant]

I am so glad that you brought this piece of Scripture up. This phrase "forever and ever" does not actually mean eternity. In the Greek version of this scripture, the phrase forever and ever reads "eis tous aionas ton aionon", which literally means "into the ages of the ages." The Greek nouns aionas and aionon are plural forms of the Greek aion, which simply means an "eon" or "age." Which ofcourse as you probably know refers to and indefinite period of time and does not convey the idea of eternity.
I've been told by some who support the idea of annihilation that the Greeks didn't even have a word for "forever". Given that little bit of info, if you spoke Koine Greek and found yourself in need of expressing such an idea, what would you do, not having a word for it? You'd use what you have. Perhaps "aion aion" was used back-to-back in such cases, as we see in Revelation 20:10? I don't know myself; just something to think about.

Speaking of Revelation 20:10:

(Rev 20:10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever [aion aion].

(Rev 22:5) And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever [aion aion].

I think we would agree that no one can make a blanket statement and proclaim that "aion aion" never refers to a never-ending period of time, yes? So the question is, when does it indicate a never-ending period of time, when does it not, and how do we go about determining that?

(Mat 25:46) And these shall go away into everlasting [aionos] punishment: but the righteous into life eternal [aionos].

What do we do with this? It sure looks to me like Jesus is making a parallel statement concerning the duration of both the punishment of the wicked, and the lifespan of the righteous. Jesus uses the same word in both cases. Are we to be consistent and discard the doctrine of eternal life, or do we instead discard the doctrine of annihilation (or what have you)? Or do we go for a third option and claim that these two occurances of "aionos" are actually used in different senses (and how could we possibly support that)?

Also one last thing... the term day and night in Revelation 10 confirms this theory, because time as we understand it does not exist in eternity, meaning that this punishment is not eternal.
I realize that this is a common assumption, regardless of one's position on this issue, but who exactly is "we", and where can we see this supported in the scriptures?

[Doubting John]

Interesting topic. But there is no hell and there is no Satan.

Hell, for instance:

“The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much in the same way as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect, over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked; his wrath towards you burns like fire…. You hang by a slender thread, with flames of divine wrath flashing about it and ready every moment to singe it, and burn it asunder…. Consider this, you that yet remain in an unregenerate state. That God will execute the fierceness of his anger, implies, that he will inflict wrath without any pity…you shall be tormented in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb…. There will be no end to this exquisite horrible misery…. So that your punishment will indeed be infinite.” Jonathan Edwards, “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God.”

So here’s a question: “What would we think of a human being who satisfied his thirst for revenge so implacably and insatiably?” Hans Kung, Eternal Life, 1984 (p. 136).

“If this were true” (i.e., the traditional view) it would make Hitler “a third degree saint, and the concentration camps…a picnic ground.” Nels Ferre, Christian Understanding of God (p. 540).

“As the Church’s threat against all sinners and all its enemies, hell serves the holy purpose of cradle to grave intimidation.” Uta Ranke-Heinemann, Putting Away Childish Things, “Hell.”

“The idea that a fully conscious creature would undergo physical and mental torture through endless time is plainly sadistic and therefore incompatible with a God who loves humanity.” “In terms of justice, the traditional view of hell is simply unacceptable. It is a punishment in excess of anything that sinners deserve….Besides, no purpose is served by the unending torture of the wicked except vengeance.” Clark H. Pinnoch & Robert Brown, Unbounded Love, “Hell.”

“Is it not plain that sins committed in time and space cannot deserve limitless divine retribution? Hell is the ultimate big stick to threaten people with…this monstrous belief will cause many people to turn away from Christianity.” (p. 39) “What human crimes could possibly deserve everlasting conscious torture?” (p. 140) “Surely the idea of everlasting conscious torment raises the problem of evil to impossible heights.” (p. 150) Any doctrine of hell needs to pass the moral test….The traditional belief….is unbiblical, is fostered by a hellenistic view of human nature, is detrimental to the character of God, is defended on essentially pragmatic grounds, and is being rejected by a growing number of biblically faithful, contemporary scholars.” (p. 165) Clark Pinnock in Four Views of Hell, ed, Wm Crockett, Zondervan, 1992.

Satan, for instance:

The Concept of Satan Evolved from that of a heavenly public prosecutor to the leader of an angelic host at war with God and man. The original model for the figure of Satan may have been an oriental spy, who in the absence of a state police served as the eyes and ears of the king. The whole notion of a “devil’s advocate” is that of a lawyer “who has the job of being an adversary in the interests of discovering the truth.” Uta Ranke-Heinemann, Putting Away Childish Things, (p. 59). Logic supports this view too. “If God is really all-powerful, no devil would have a chance against him. So if a devil really exists, it must be because he’s secretly in cahoots with God.” -- Sidney Harris.

Satan was transformed into the “Evil One” by two trains of thought. 1) Since in Job we see Satan provoking God to bring on sickness, catastrophes, pillage and death, it would not take long for the popular imagination to turn Satan into the N.T. “god of this world” (II Cor. 4:4). 2) Then there was the need to explain the origin of evil. The sheer massiveness of evil in the world pointed to a more malevolent source than puny human beings. The allusion to a fall of angels through supposed intercourse with women (Gen. 6:1-4) provided the seedbed of a whole new set of ideas that led to that of Satan and his fallen angelic host.

“Not until the post-O.T., late Jewish Scriptures (see Enoch 6:14), that is, in the last 200 years before Christ, are God and Satan directly pitted against each other. The accuser is turned into the adversary of God and the head of a God-hating kingdom, hence an evil principle pure and simple.” Putting Away Childish Things, (p. 58).

“The Dead Sea Scrolls (c. 150 B.C. to 68 A.D.) presents Satan as the leader of the evil forces and attacker of the righteous. This development was probably influenced by the evil god of Zoroastrian religion…” Baker’s Encyclopedia of the Bible, “Satan.”

“In the N.T., Satan bears all the negative, God hating features…Satan is now a superhuman power of evil. In other words, human fantasy is putting more and more distance between God and Satan, in order to free God from the burden of evil.” In the process “man has invented the Devil to get himself off the hook,” too. “Man doesn’t want to be responsible for his actions, but he remains the only responsible party. He and nobody else is the Prince of Hell on earth.” Putting Away Childish Things, (p. 58-59).

Sorry John, but this forum is for Christian-only participation.