Preterism popularity.

[AaronG]

People say that Preterism is becoming popular.Well,unfortunately for FP's there are 2 billion Christians in the world.Most of whom believe in a Future second coming.They will never get all of us to believe that A.D 70 nonsense.And I can tell you that it will never get far in my church at all.

[dizzle]

Hi Aaron, good to see you.

[AaronG]

Hey Darth.

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

People say that Preterism is becoming popular.Well,unfortunately for FP's there are 2 billion Christians in the world.Most of whom believe in a Future second coming.They will never get all of us to believe that A.D 70 nonsense.And I can tell you that it will never get far in my church at all.That can all be true, and preterism could still be getting more and more popular. What do any of us care about the fact that FP is doomed? :wink:

[AaronG]

He!He!He!

[dizzle]

Hey Darth.

Oh Aaron, I just realized you might not know who I am with the different screen name, its Dee Dee.

[AaronG]

You got it.Thanx Dee Dee.I know exactly who you are.:)

[dizzle]

People say that Preterism is becoming popular.Well,unfortunately for FP's there are 2 billion Christians in the world.Most of whom believe in a Future second coming.They will never get all of us to believe that A.D 70 nonsense.And I can tell you that it will never get far in my church at all.

Aaron, there is a lot packed into there. I think at one time hyperpreterism was making some inroads with some conservative circles, this would be in the days of David Chilton and when the likes of Don Present and Ward Fenley had their day. But nowadays, it is has caved in like all heresies do and has succumbed to the loosey goosey siren call of emergent nonsense, and I thank God that it has. I can't think of better theological company for Brian McLaren to have. There are a few old-guard hyperpreterists trying to revive a dead enterprise, for example Roderick Edwards, but its a thankfully sinking ship.

[AaronG]

Now you can pick on this JW.Say what you will about us.Full Preterism will NEVER get far with JW'S!!!

[AaronG]

May it sink faster!!!!

[TyRockwell]

Xena, which of the 'isms' requires anything of us, other than evangelism, but to sit back and watch it happen?

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

Now you can pick on this JW.Say what you will about us.Full Preterism will NEVER get far with JW'S!!!Well there'as at least one feature in common, namely belief in an invisible return and invisible/spiritual resurrection. Wait... that's two things. Oh yeah, and the main early proponent of the view has the surname Russell. That's three things.

[AaronG]

Wrong,Wrong,Wrong My Friend.The resurrection will be physical.:).We have never taught a spiritual resurrection.:)

[AaronG]

Not for most of humanity anyways.Most of us will get a physical resurrection.

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

Not for most of humanity anyways.Most of us will get a physical resurrection.Exactly. I was right, right, right. You do teach a spiritual resurrection, even if not everyonme takes part in it. I knew what I was talking about. You were not telling the truth when you said that "we have never taught a spiritual resurrection."

I was not trying to score points against the JWs, I was merely being factual.

[AaronG]

And so do you.My apologies

[AaronG]

I do apologize for misreading you.

[AaronG]

The thing I don't like about Full Preterism is that it takes something that is a symbol of good and hope to most people,and pairs it down to virtually nothing.The Bible talks about empty speeches and smooth words of emptiness,and that is what Full Preterism is.Smooth words with whole lot of nothing.I wish I had never rubbed should with those people.

[AaronG]

I meant I wish I had never rubbed shoulders with those people.And I am glad for people like Dee Dee who stand them down and hold them accountable.

[Hitch]

Xena, which of the 'isms' requires anything of us, other than evangelism, but to sit back and watch it happen?
Actually any sort of nonliberal PostMillennialism requires that the church conquer the world. It is a fight to the death that includes reclaiming all areas of life in the name of Christ, as distant from the' witness to all so Jesus can come' bit as is possible.
A great fallacy of DF teaching is the ridiculous notion that the church and the kingdom are seperate entities and that historical victory is set aside for some future 'kingdom age' in which Christ is supposed to enter the world scene bodily and remain for a thousand years.I have no doubt trhe enemy is ecstatic when ever sucgh drivel is regurgetated from church pulpits.

[Zguy28]

Actually any sort of nonliberal PostMillennialism requires that the church conquer the world. It is a fight to the death that includes reclaiming all areas of life in the name of Christ, as distant from the' witness to all so Jesus can come' bit as is possible.
A great fallacy of DF teaching is the ridiculous notion that the church and the kingdom are seperate entities and that historical victory is set aside for some future 'kingdom age' in which Christ is supposed to enter the world scene bodily and remain for a thousand years.I have no doubt trhe enemy is ecstatic when ever sucgh drivel is regurgetated from church pulpits.Belligerent much? Sheesh dude, get over yourself.

Anywho, its not just a Dispensational thing, as I'm sure you already know :ahem: . A whole lot of the rest of us believe in Premillenialism too.

[Hitch]

Point,,,dud?

[TyRockwell]

Actually any sort of nonliberal PostMillennialism requires that the church conquer the world. It is a fight to the death that includes reclaiming all areas of life in the name of Christ, as distant from the' witness to all so Jesus can come' bit as is possible.
A great fallacy of DF teaching is the ridiculous notion that the church and the kingdom are seperate entities and that historical victory is set aside for some future 'kingdom age' in which Christ is supposed to enter the world scene bodily and remain for a thousand years.I have no doubt trhe enemy is ecstatic when ever sucgh drivel is regurgetated from church pulpits.
DF? What is that? Dominionist Faith?

It's funny you think some form of Postmillinialism requires that the church 'conquer the world.' Do you possibly see that it might be that a premillinial view might be the glorious church conquering principalities and powers in the realm of the spirit, before Jesus can return? Is there an anachronym, or an 'ism' for that perspective? BTW, include in that scenario the present reality of God's spiritual kingdom.

[dynomite]

Aaron, there is a lot packed into there. I think at one time hyperpreterism was making some inroads with some conservative circles, this would be in the days of David Chilton and when the likes of Don Present and Ward Fenley had their day. But nowadays, it is has caved in like all heresies do and has succumbed to the loosey goosey siren call of emergent nonsense, and I thank God that it has. I can't think of better theological company for Brian McLaren to have. There are a few old-guard hyperpreterists trying to revive a dead enterprise, for example Roderick Edwards, but its a thankfully sinking ship.

Dee Dee,

I have kind of noticed this myself, at least the aspect that it appears to be imploding . For example, I came across HP in the mid-90's and started corresponding with Ed Stevens and Ward Fenley around that time. I "appreciated" Ed, b/c I thought he was attempting to remain 'orthodox', although obviously denying certain key elements, but then he started to get a little wacky to get things to fit and seems like he thinks highly of himself.

Ward seemed bright and would give an array of Scriptures for his position, but I didn't there was much exegetical work to back his position.

I think Don Preston is the best debater they have, he is quick and good with the rhetoric, but, again, lacks exegesis at key points.

Anyway, maybe it is just because I don't really pay much attention to it any more, it seems like it is dying out and that there is a lot of infighting. It might be like when I stopped skateboarding and it seemed like no one skated anymore. It may still be growing, etc., but my interests are there, so I think no one else is interested.

[Hitch]

DF? What is that? Dominionist Faith?['quote] Dispensational Futurist [quote]

It's funny you think some form of Postmillinialism requires that the church 'conquer the world.' Do you also think its funny that we are more than conquerers in Christ? Actually I excluded only the liberal or modnernist varieties.


Do you possibly see that it might be that a premillinial view might be the glorious church conquering principalities and powers in the realm of the spirit, before Jesus can return? It wouldnt be wise for any one to expect Christ to ask permission.



Is there an anachronym, or an 'ism' for that perspective? BTW, include in that scenario the present reality of God's spiritual kingdom.

[dizzle]

I meant I wish I had never rubbed shoulders with those people.And I am glad for people like Dee Dee who stand them down and hold them accountable.

Thank you Aaron, I am glad I have been of edification to you.

[dizzle]

Dee Dee,

I have kind of noticed this myself, at least the aspect that it appears to be imploding . For example, I came across HP in the mid-90's and started corresponding with Ed Stevens and Ward Fenley around that time. I "appreciated" Ed, b/c I thought he was attempting to remain 'orthodox', although obviously denying certain key elements, but then he started to get a little wacky to get things to fit and seems like he thinks highly of himself.

Ward seemed bright and would give an array of Scriptures for his position, but I didn't there was much exegetical work to back his position.

I think Don Preston is the best debater they have, he is quick and good with the rhetoric, but, again, lacks exegesis at key points.

Anyway, maybe it is just because I don't really pay much attention to it any more, it seems like it is dying out and that there is a lot of infighting. It might be like when I stopped skateboarding and it seemed like no one skated anymore. It may still be growing, etc., but my interests are there, so I think no one else is interested.

It really is in disarray right now, with Todd Dennis abscounding to "preterist idealism" which is still hyperpreterism where it matters, i.e. the denial of the bodily return and bodily resurrection, he just doesn't place it in the first century, and promoting universalism apparently. Planet Preterist appears to be drifting more and more towards universalism and has drunk the emergent punch. The "conservatives" are a dying breed. I haven't been impressed with Don Preston - I have responded to him once, and he so didn't even have a clue as to what the point was. Plus he is all up into baptismal regeneration so he has more problems than you can shake a stick at.

[Zguy28]

Point,,,dud?My point was, that despite what appears to be some sort of hatred for Dispensationals on your part, you can get your point across without using words like "drivel" which are dripping with venom and arrogance.

I think preterists are wrong, but at least I respect them as fellow Christians. And I do the same for Dispensationals, even though I think they are wrong as well.

[TyRockwell]

My point was, that despite what appears to be some sort of hatred for Dispensationals on your part, you can get your point across without using words like "drivel" which are dripping with venom and arrogance.

I think preterists are wrong, but at least I respect them as fellow Christians. And I do the same for Dispensationals, even though I think they are wrong as well.
I agree with your point, Zguy28. Many are so rooted into their positions that they cannot approach eschatology with an open mind and heart, asking the Holy Spirit to reveal what is true. What follows is a dry, analytical, hypothesis masquerading as exegesis.

Then, like you said, they get defensive about the failures of their assumptions to answer all the questions, and in that defensiveness they become rude and unapproachable.

[Hitch]

My point was, that despite what appears to be some sort of hatred for Dispensationals on your part, you can get your point across without using words like "drivel" which are dripping with venom and arrogance.

I think preterists are wrong, but at least I respect them as fellow Christians. And I do the same for Dispensationals, even though I think they are wrong as well. LOL I love it when I get unsolicited advice topped off with anice dolop of complaint of arrogance

[Theolog]

"Where ever two or more are gathered in my name I will be there."

"My kingdom is not of this world."

15 “If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will bea in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.” The Holy Bible : New International Version. 1996, c1984 . Zondervan: Grand Rapids

50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
The Holy Bible : New International Version. 1996, c1984 . Zondervan: Grand Rapids

Perhaps the very reason you are blind to Christ is because you are just blind.

let he who has eyes see.Theolog, please pay close attention to the guidelines for Eschatology 201:
Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction.

[Theolog]

Aaron, there is a lot packed into there. I think at one time hyperpreterism was making some inroads with some conservative circles, this would be in the days of David Chilton and when the likes of Don Present and Ward Fenley had their day. But nowadays, it is has caved in like all heresies do and has succumbed to the loosey goosey siren call of emergent nonsense, and I thank God that it has. I can't think of better theological company for Brian McLaren to have. There are a few old-guard hyperpreterists trying to revive a dead enterprise, for example Roderick Edwards, but its a thankfully sinking ship.

You're a real crack up. You run off all the preterists and then observe "Wow there aren't as many preterist around anymore it must be a dieing breed"

I can assure you that the movement is growing and growing fast. You futurists that call yourselves partial preterist are preping a whole new generation for us. Don't worry if we are not of God we will just go away.

It really don't take a rocket scientist to understand the bible teaches a spiritual kingdom. If you don't get it now you might not get it when you die. You only got one chance baby. :-) gonna be a real bummer craving a body of flesh forever. good luck.Theolog, please pay close attention to the guidelines for Eschatology 201:
Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction.

[gharfish]

LOL I love it when I get unsolicited advice topped off with anice dolop of complaint of arrogance:ahem:

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

:ahem:

47874

[gharfish]

Attack dogma !

[TyRockwell]

[quote=Hitch;2133576][quote=TyRockwell;2131800]DF? What is that? Dominionist Faith?['quote] Dispensational Futurist Do you also think its funny that we are more than conquerers in Christ? Actually I excluded only the liberal or modnernist varieties.

No, I do know that we are more than conquerers in Christ! Seriously, though, I was only guessing at what you meant by 'DF.' There are so many anachronyms used that I'm not up on.

I suppose there might be a sense of the dispensational in what I perceive the seven seals to be, but unlike the traditional view, that calls the first dispensation 'Innocence,' when it is clearly "Dominion," as Gen. 1:26 and 28 state.

Also the old 'dispensational' idea is that one ends and the next begins, which is not true of the seals. God 'dispenses' His word, but He doesn't then take it away.

It wouldnt be wise for any one to expect Christ to ask permission.

Right, But the most repeated verse in the Bible tells us that Jesus must remain seated at the right hand of the Father until "I (the Father) make all your enemies a footstool for your feet." He is doing that through his church.

[timspong]

Actually any sort of nonliberal PostMillennialism requires that the church conquer the world. It is a fight to the death that includes reclaiming all areas of life in the name of Christ, as distant from the' witness to all so Jesus can come' bit as is possible.
A great fallacy of DF teaching is the ridiculous notion that the church and the kingdom are seperate entities and that historical victory is set aside for some future 'kingdom age' in which Christ is supposed to enter the world scene bodily and remain for a thousand years.I have no doubt trhe enemy is ecstatic when ever sucgh drivel is regurgetated from church pulpits.

If we are waiting for the church to conquer the world then I think we could be here for some time.

[timspong]

You're a real crack up. You run off all the preterists and then observe "Wow there aren't as many preterist around anymore it must be a dieing breed"

I can assure you that the movement is growing and growing fast. You futurists that call yourselves partial preterist are preping a whole new generation for us. Don't worry if we are not of God we will just go away.

It really don't take a rocket scientist to understand the bible teaches a spiritual kingdom. If you don't get it now you might not get it when you die. You only got one chance baby. :-) gonna be a real bummer craving a body of flesh forever. good luck.

Well if this is the kingdom then it is the most overhyped thing in the history of the world.

[dizzle]

everyone say buh bye to theolog who just couldn't resist himself - many hyperpreterists tend to be like that - sneaky and crafty and antinomian, but hey since the whole movement is pretty much going into the toilet into universalism and emergent, good luck to them

:rofl:

[Theolog]

Christianity is not all that complicated. It's about life and death. Life is knowing God and death is not knowing Him.

God is spirit and He dwells in the spiritual world. When we die our spirits go and live there in his presence. It will be a crowded place. Those that love the darkness, (these deeds are known to all) will dwell in outer darkness forever and those that love the light will dwell in the light, in Gods very presence. Those that love the light practice virtue. It's a personal thing. :-)

14 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in Goda; trust also in me. 2 In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”
The Holy Bible : New International Version. 1996, c1984 . Zondervan: Grand Rapids

Jesus was'nt talking about setting up camp in Jerusalem. Where do you think Jesus was going?????Theolog, please pay close attention to the guidelines for Eschatology 201:
Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction.

With that in mind, you really ought not participate in this thread.

[Theolog]

everyone say buh bye to theolog who just couldn't resist himself - many hyperpreterists tend to be like that - sneaky and crafty and antinomian, but hey since the whole movement is pretty much going into the toilet into universalism and emergent, good luck to them

:rofl:
sorry I thought I was in the heritic section.

[Xmansmommy]

sorry I thought I was in the heritic section.

:rofl:

[TyRockwell]

sorry I thought I was in the heritic section.
I'm still looking for the Atrocious Exegesis forum.

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

If we are waiting for the church to conquer the world then I think we could be here for some time.Exactly. We shouldn't be huddled in churches waiting to be snatched away, asking people to join the losing side in the meantime. There's looong term work to begin, so let's get started.

Welcome to Dominion theology. :smile:

[Hitch]

If we are waiting for the church to conquer the world then I think we could be here for some time.


God has all the time there is and He controls it for His own glory and our benefit.

[gharfish]

Exactly. We shouldn't be huddled in churches waiting to be snatched away, asking people to join the losing side in the meantime. There's looong term work to begin, so let's get started.

Welcome to Dominion theology. :smile:Let's get started by taking the gospel to our neighbor and to the whole world, as if it were the last days ! Yes, with great heart, efficiently and quickly !



And now (duh duh daa) "Return of dat futurecat !" :glare:

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

I bet I know what futurecat is saying there:

Dog: When are you gonna take your paws off my eyes?
Cat: Soon. The time is near at hand.
Dog: Oh good.

(1 day passes)

Dog: So... ah... you gonna take those paws off yet?
Cat: Oh yes, very soon. The time is at hand.
Dog: Oh good - Oh wait a sec, you're futurecat. A Futurist, right?
Cat: Yep.
Dog: Oh crap. We could be here for a while...

[gharfish]

The paws don't stay on long. Like Preterdog, Futurecat has things he needs to get on with.

[TyRockwell]

Exactly. We shouldn't be huddled in churches waiting to be snatched away, asking people to join the losing side in the meantime. There's looong term work to begin, so let's get started.

Welcome to Dominion theology. :smile:
I agree, mostly. God is not limited to save by many or save by few. He can do it with a "Gideon's 300," too. "This good news of the King's dominion must first be preached as a demonstration to be witnessed, in all the world and then the end will come." Matthew 24:14

With world-wide 24 hour a day cable news and the internet, a lot of demonstration of the kingdom can be witnessed in a short time! To God be the glory!

[timspong]

God has all the time there is and He controls it for His own glory and our benefit.

Man I am so far away from postmillennialism; I wouldn't even know where to begin.

I would have to have another one of those catastrophic epiphanies that God blessed me with when my hyper-charismatic house build on the sand was washed away and I had to start from scratch.

Lord I hope not, that one was a trial and a half.

[Zguy28]

Exactly. We shouldn't be huddled in churches waiting to be snatched away, asking people to join the losing side in the meantime. There's looong term work to begin, so let's get started.

Welcome to Dominion theology. :smile:Its funny, I'm not a futurist, but some of the most evangelistic Christians I know are.

[dizzle]

Its funny, I'm not a futurist, but some of the most evangelistic Christians I know are.

That isn't what he was speaking of. He was speaking of a worldview capable of truly transforming cultures for the long-term. A typical futuristic one cannot do so consistently within their worldview.

However I do believe all the comments miss the point and are a strange appeal to a twisted emotion IMHO, starting with "well we're going to be here for a while." Yeah, so? How is that even a relevant comment to whether a view is true or not. Fact is we HAVE been here for two thousand years, and it wouldn't surprise me in the least if we are here for ten thousand more.

[Hitch]

I agree, mostly. God is not limited to save by many or save by few. He can do it with a "Gideon's 300," too. "This good news of the King's dominion must first be preached as a demonstration to be witnessed, in all the world and then the end will come." Matthew 24:14

With world-wide 24 hour a day cable news and the internet, a lot of demonstration of the kingdom can be witnessed in a short time! To God be the glory!Hmmm Paul thought this had been accomplished in his lifetime.

[dizzle]

shhh Hitch

[John Reece]

Hmmm Paul thought this had been accomplished in his lifetime.

shhh Hitch

:smile:

[TyRockwell]

Hitch: Hmmm Paul thought this had been accomplished in his lifetime.

DX:shhh Hitch

Can't have Hitch accidentally making my point!

[dizzle]

I seriously doubt that, but then again, you might exegete conversation in the same atrocious way you do the Bible :shrug:

[TyRockwell]

[quote=Darth Xena;2137466]I seriously doubt that, but then again, you might exegete conversation in the same atrocious way you do the Bible :shrug:

Someone once said, "Atrociosity is in the eye of the Exegetress."

[Zguy28]

That isn't what he was speaking of. He was speaking of a worldview capable of truly transforming cultures for the long-term. Oh.

How?

By forcing non-Christians to become Christians through legislation and social reform?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you?

A typical futuristic one cannot do so consistently within their worldview.Why not?

It seems that futurism in general is missions oriented. Is that bad?


Unfortunately for futurists, the view has been overshadowed by one sect, the pre-tribbers, which I find personally leads to escapism in most cases.

[TyRockwell]

Hitch: Hmmm Paul thought this had been accomplished in his lifetime.

Yes, Paul and others expected Jesus to come in their lifetimes, which eliminates the idea of the1000 years happening before his personal, present-in-body reign on earth. If the 1000 years were allegorical, they would be one day, or as a watch in the night.

Paul assumed that the gospel had been preached and demonstrated in all the world. He didn't know how big the world is or how long it would take to make the kingdom known everywhere. Even today, most Christians think the kingdom is in heaven, or will only come when Jesus comes.

[dizzle]

In my Bible, Paul isn't wrong. Sucks to be you.

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

Oh.

How?

By forcing non-Christians to become Christians through legislation and social reform?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you?
Oh, you mean you're misunderstanding the references to force, legislation and social reform that people in this thread made?

Oh no wait - you introduced those terms yourself. What could you be misunderstanding then? Oh, wait, maybe you think the only way people can change is through force, legislation and such. That's the only explanation i can come up with for why you would have introduced those things.

[Zguy28]

Oh, you mean you're misunderstanding the references to force, legislation and social reform that people in this thread made?

Oh no wait - you introduced those terms yourself. What could you be misunderstanding then? Oh, wait, maybe you think the only way people can change is through force, legislation and such. That's the only explanation i can come up with for why you would have introduced those things.Well then, explain what you mean by Dominion Theology? You just throw that out and expect people to know what you mean...

I thought it meant evangelism. Xena said no. Social reform and legislation is the next logical leap I would think, especially when you look at the history of Christianity and its present state with guys like Dobson (bless his soul) who would try to legislate Christianity on people.

Call me crazy, or Anabaptist, or even libertarian, but I like separation of church and state. Else you end up with people getting burned at the stake for being wiccan.

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

Well then, explain what you mean by Dominion Theology? You just throw that out and expect people to know what you mean...If you're saying you don't know what it means, then why not ask before making strange suggestions.
I thought it meant evangelism. Xena said no. Social reform and legislation is the next logical leap I would think, especially when you look at the history of Christianity and its present state with guys like Dobson (bless his soul) who would try to legislate Christianity on people.

Call me crazy, or Anabaptist, or even libertarian, but I like separation of church and state. Else you end up with people getting burned at the stake for being wiccan.Wait, who argued for church-state union? Another one out of left field! Do you do the hat/rabbit thing too?

And Dobson is not a proponent of Dominion theology.

Darth Xena noted that being an evangelistic Christian is not the same as holding to Dominion Theology, and she was quite correct. Postmillennial Dominion Theology is the view that all human civilization will be brought under the dominion of Christ. The first and most important part of this is evangelism. The kingdom of God expands on earth as the Holy spirit brings more people into it via regeneration, and then sanctification. The result of this is justice and peace, along with laws that reflect God's law because the people advocate God's laws.

This talk of forcing people to become / act like Christians via legislation confuses the horse with the cart. Social reform happens because people become reformed, and because faith without works is dead. Genuinely Reformed people make a difference in this world, unlike certain irrelevant forms of evangelical escapism. Salt of the earth, light of the world and all that.

[Hitch]

Hitch: Hmmm Paul thought this had been accomplished in his lifetime.

Yes, Paul and others expected Jesus to come in their lifetimes, which eliminates the idea of the1000 years happening before his personal, present-in-body reign on earth. If the 1000 years were allegorical, they would be one day, or as a watch in the night.
[quote] LOL Why change the subject? Paul stated aseveral times in holy writ that the gospel \had spead all over the world[quote]
Paul assumed that the gospel had been preached and demonstrated in all the world. He didn't know how big the world is or how long it would take to make the kingdom known everywhere. Even today, most Christians think the kingdom is in heaven, or will only come when Jesus comes. actualy under the care and unction of the Holy Spirit Paul stated this as an accomplished fact. A Fact you dont seem to care much for.

[TyRockwell]

[quote=Hitch;2139233][quote=TyRockwell;2138601]Hitch: Hmmm Paul thought this had been accomplished in his lifetime.

Yes, Paul and others expected Jesus to come in their lifetimes, which eliminates the idea of the1000 years happening before his personal, present-in-body reign on earth. If the 1000 years were allegorical, they would be one day, or as a watch in the night.

LOL Why change the subject? Paul stated aseveral times in holy writ that the gospel \had spead all over the world actualy under the care and unction of the Holy Spirit Paul stated this as an accomplished fact. A Fact you dont seem to care much for.

How did I change the subject, brother? I very much do hold the word of God in utmost respect, and I do not read into it something it does not say.

Paul wrote that the gospel had been preached, and made known in all the world. He didn't say it had been demonstrated as in something that is seen, or witnessed. Matthew 24:14

peace,
Ty

[dizzle]

If you're saying you don't know what it means, then why not ask before making strange suggestions.
Wait, who argued for church-state union? Another one out of left field! Do you do the hat/rabbit thing too?

And Dobson is not a proponent of Dominion theology.

Darth Xena noted that being an evangelistic Christian is not the same as holding to Dominion Theology, and she was quite correct. Postmillennial Dominion Theology is the view that all human civilization will be brought under the dominion of Christ. The first and most important part of this is evangelism. The kingdom of God expands on earth as the Holy spirit brings more people into it via regeneration, and then sanctification. The result of this is justice and peace, along with laws that reflect God's law because the people advocate God's laws.

This talk of forcing people to become / act like Christians via legislation confuses the horse with the cart. Social reform happens because people become reformed, and because faith without works is dead. Genuinely Reformed people make a difference in this world, unlike certain irrelevant forms of evangelical escapism. Salt of the earth, light of the world and all that.

Amen. It is amazing to me that some people just think this is too hard for even the Holy Spirit or perhaps compartmentalize their own faith so much that they cannot believe that a majority of Christian people would choose voluntarily and gladly to live governed by God's laws.

[Zguy28]

If you're saying you don't know what it means, then why not ask before making strange suggestions.
Wait, who argued for church-state union? Another one out of left field! Do you do the hat/rabbit thing too?

And Dobson is not a proponent of Dominion theology.

Darth Xena noted that being an evangelistic Christian is not the same as holding to Dominion Theology, and she was quite correct. Postmillennial Dominion Theology is the view that all human civilization will be brought under the dominion of Christ. The first and most important part of this is evangelism. The kingdom of God expands on earth as the Holy spirit brings more people into it via regeneration, and then sanctification. The result of this is justice and peace, along with laws that reflect God's law because the people advocate God's laws.

This talk of forcing people to become / act like Christians via legislation confuses the horse with the cart. Social reform happens because people become reformed, and because faith without works is dead. Genuinely Reformed people make a difference in this world, unlike certain irrelevant forms of evangelical escapism. Salt of the earth, light of the world and all that.Thank you for the clarification. I honestly appreciate it.

I was going by the Wiki article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_Theology):

Dominion Theology is a grouping of theological systems with the common belief that society should be governed exclusively by the law of God as codified in the Bible, to the exclusion of secular law. The two main streams of Dominion Theology are Christian Reconstructionism and Kingdom Now theology. Though these two differ greatly in their general theological orientation (the first is strongly Reformed, the second is Charismatic), they share a postmillenial vision in which the kingdom of God will be established on Earth through political and (in some cases) even military means, eventually enabling the return of Christ.

All strains of Dominion Theology are small minorities, and are rejected by most mainstream Christians as quite radical. However, Dominion Theology is seen by some as a subset of Dominionism, a term used by some social scientists and journalists to describe a theological form of political ideology, which they claim has broadly influenced the Christian Right in the United States, Canada, and Europe, within Protestant Christian evangelicalism and fundamentalism.

Amen. It is amazing to me that some people just think this is too hard for even the Holy Spirit or perhaps compartmentalize their own faith so much that they cannot believe that a majority of Christian people would choose voluntarily and gladly to live governed by God's laws.Wrong. You are arguing from a premise that your view is correct. I don't agree with that premise, since I'm an Historic-Premill. Hence its not a sound argument.

Anywho, sure Christians would like to live under God's Law, I know I would. I don't know any who wouldn't. And I don't know any who thinks the Holy Spirit couldn't do it if that is God's plan. But you see, not everybody believes that's His plan.

But, it is the reason why folks like me are heavily focused on evangelism and missions, instead of legislation (not claiming anything here Jack) like Dobson. You can't fight spiritual battles with carnal weapons. That is why the War on Terror is doomed to continue. Only the Spirit of God can change a heart, not guns.

By the way, how much of a majority is required before we enact God's Law as government?

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

Thank you for the clarification. I honestly appreciate it.

I was going by the Wiki article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_Theology):

Dominion Theology is a grouping of theological systems with the common belief that society should be governed exclusively by the law of God as codified in the Bible, to the exclusion of secular law. The two main streams of Dominion Theology are Christian Reconstructionism and Kingdom Now theology. Though these two differ greatly in their general theological orientation (the first is strongly Reformed, the second is Charismatic), they share a postmillenial vision in which the kingdom of God will be established on Earth through political and (in some cases) even military means, eventually enabling the return of Christ.

All strains of Dominion Theology are small minorities, and are rejected by most mainstream Christians as quite radical. However, Dominion Theology is seen by some as a subset of Dominionism, a term used by some social scientists and journalists to describe a theological form of political ideology, which they claim has broadly influenced the Christian Right in the United States, Canada, and Europe, within Protestant Christian evangelicalism and fundamentalism.You're very welcome - and you may be absolutely assured that the wiki - like most articles written to tell the general reader what dominion theology is - was written by someone who not only doesn't believe it, but writes it off as crazy. No proponent of the view would have written the description that way.

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

By the way, how much of a majority is required before we enact God's Law as government?I know this was for DX, but if I may answer a question with a question: How much of a majority is required before anything at all can be enacted? Just think in terms of current poplarity requirements. If a government is going to be elected that will enact biblical principles, the population needs to be such that a government like that will win an election. That's true now, and it would be true at any foreseeable point in the future. Same as a liberal govt, a republican govt, a democrat govt, etc.

[Zguy28]

You're very welcome - and you may be absolutely assured that the wiki - like most articles written to tell the general reader what dominion theology is - was written by someone who not only doesn't believe it, but writes it off as crazy. No proponent of the view would have written the description that way.I hope didn't think I was trying to be rude or anything.

Perhaps you guys should edit the Wiki article?

[dizzle]

I hope didn't think I was trying to be rude or anything.

Perhaps you guys should edit the Wiki article?

Have you ever been involved in a controversial wiki article? No thanks - and many reliable and accurate editors feel the same way, thus, Wiki is to be treated with a large dose of skepticism and baloney detection. I have enough problems trying to make sure the preterism article remains neutral point of view. Perhaps Jack wants to take this one on, but not I.

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

Have you ever been involved in a controversial wiki article? No thanks - and many reliable and accurate editors feel the same way, thus, Wiki is to be treated with a large dose of skepticism and baloney detection. I have enough problems trying to make sure the preterism article remains neutral point of view. Perhaps Jack wants to take this one on, but not I.
No, wikipedia is not a good place to try to get a neutral POV on controversial theology. I will, however, write up an entry at Theopedia.com, which currently lacks an entry for dominion theology.

Theopedia is a better source, in my view.

[Zguy28]

I know this was for DX, but if I may answer a question with a question: How much of a majority is required before anything at all can be enacted? Just think in terms of current poplarity requirements. If a government is going to be elected that will enact biblical principles, the population needs to be such that a government like that will win an election. That's true now, and it would be true at any foreseeable point in the future. Same as a liberal govt, a republican govt, a democrat govt, etc.Ok. In the United States, where it is unconstitutional to have a state religion, do you ever see it happening? (That is what it will amount to if you govern the country with Biblical Law.)

In addition to what appears to be the proliferation of atheism, agnosticism, and secular humanism in the USA?

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

Ok. In the United States, where it is unconstitutional to have a state religion, do you ever see it happening?Because of what I believe Scripture teaches about history, yes, I do see it happening. I also do not see it as the establishment of religion, so that particular part of the constitution is not a problem.
Especially with what appears to be the proliferation of atheism, agnosticism, and secular humanism in the USA?
Well, even granting this, I don't think it's right to assume that what we see now is the way things will always be.

[TyRockwell]

Zguy, DX, and Jack:
By the way, how much of a majority is required before we enact God's Law as government?

If you were a Democrat, it would be 50% plus one voter!!! (sarcasm)

Wikipedia claims that Dominion Theology is postmillineal. I don't see why they said that.

Ty

[Zguy28]

Zguy, DX, and Jack:
By the way, how much of a majority is required before we enact God's Law as government?

If you were a Democrat, it would be 50% plus one voter!!! (sarcasm)

Wikipedia claims that Dominion Theology is postmillineal. I don't see why they said that.

TyI don't know if you noticed but they (Dee Dee and Jack) are postmill.

[Zguy28]

Because of what I believe Scripture teaches about history, yes, I do see it happening. I also do not see it as the establishment of religion, so that particular part of the constitution is not a problem.Which part of the Law do you see going into effect? Just the Ten Commandments? The whole OT Law?


Well, even granting this, I don't think it's right to assume that what we see now is the way things will always be.Obviously. Personally, I don't think the USA has a chance of surviving past the 21st century on its current path.

[TyRockwell]

I don't know if you noticed but they (Dee Dee and Jack) are postmill.
Do you mean wickedpedia gets their understanding of Dominion Theology from Dee Dee and Jack?

Postmil Dominion is like saying, 'We will have authority over satan when we get to heaven!' or, the same as, 'When the devil is defeated, then we'll have authority over him!'

Ain't that right?
Ty

[Zguy28]

Do you mean wickedpedia gets their understanding of Dominion Theology from Dee Dee and Jack?

Postmil Dominion is like saying, 'We will have authority over satan when we get to heaven!' or, the same as, 'When the devil is defeated, then we'll have authority over him!'

Ain't that right?
TyTheir version of Postmill is kind of like Amill. I think they call it Optimistic Postmill or something. Essentially, the Devil is already bound and the world is getting better because Christianity is advancing and will eventually take over the world. When that happens, Christ will return.

I probably didn't do a very good job explaining it since I'm a Premill.

[timspong]

Their version of Postmill is kind of like Amill. I think they call it Optimistic Postmill or something. Essentially, the Devil is already bound and the world is getting better because Christianity is advancing and will eventually take over the world. When that happens, Christ will return.

I probably didn't do a very good job explaining it since I'm a Premill.

Well whadaya know, satans bound. who knew? So does anyone actually believe that the world is getting better?

[TyRockwell]

[quote=timspong;2140717]Well whadaya know, satans bound. who knew? So does anyone actually believe that the world is getting better?

The world is waxing worse and worse, but the Kingdom from heaven is forcefully advancing.

"The Kingdom of God is Emerging--God's Word will be Displayed in Power and Action"
"The Kingdom of God is more than a good method or a great message. It consists not of eloquent words--but is a demonstration of the power of God."
Jesus Christ is the most single-minded person who has ever lived. His entire earthly life, including the whole of His public ministry, was focused on one thing: announcing and establishing the Kingdom of God on earth. He announced it with His preaching, teaching and healing; He established it through His death and resurrection. The first recorded words of Jesus deals with the Kingdom: "From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, 'Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand'" (Matthew 4:17).
When Jesus taught His disciples how to pray, the first thing He told them to ask of the Father was for His Kingdom to come to earth: "In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in Heaven, Hallowed be Your name. Your Kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in Heaven" (Matthew 6:9-10).
Because the Kingdom of God was so central to the purposes and plans of Christ, He wanted His followers to constantly seek after its unveiling. If the Kingdom of Heaven was Jesus' central priority, it must be ours as well. We must keep the main thing the main thing.
The phrases "Kingdom of God" and "Kingdom of Heaven" are a common and fundamental part of Biblical theology, with the word "Kingdom" appearing 150 times in the New Testament alone. Its root meaning is God's royal kingship and power, His divine authority to lead and rule. God is the supreme ruler over all creation. The royal rule of Christ is invincible, imperishable and will last forever (see Colossians 1:13-20, Revelation 1:8).
Jesus declared that this Gospel of the Kingdom was to be preached in all the world. Our mission on earth is to obey Him, and we need His anointing to empower us to carry out His command. As the Body of Christ, we are to live a life so yielded to Jesus that the Kingdom (the power and authority) of God is recognized here on earth, even by those who do not believe. We are to be so obedient to our King that His Kingdom will be expressed on this earth to an ever-increasing extent--no matter how much the influence of the powers of darkness grows--just as it will be shown in its fullness at the end of the age.
The Kingdom of God is more than a good method or a great message. It consists not of eloquent words--but is a demonstration of the power of God. A well-delivered sermon or an expertly reasoned teaching is not enough; people need to see God's power on display. The people of this generation are ready to see God's Word displayed in power and action. Only then will they begin to see and believe in the Kingdom of God and to trust Christ as their Savior and Lord.
The Works of Jesus--We Are Ambassadors
As Jesus Himself stated boldly: "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it" (John 14:12-14).
Every true believer is to be doing the works of Jesus; this is the evidence of the Kingdom of God. We are here on earth to do the very works of Jesus. This is the ministry of the Kingdom. If we are to be doing the works of Jesus, we would do well to understand what works He did.
Matthew 4:23–24 gives us a clear picture: "And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, and healing all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease among the people. Then His fame went throughout all Syria; and they brought to Him all sick people who were afflicted with various diseases and torments, and those who were demon-possessed, epileptics, and paralytics; and He healed them."
We are to preach the good news of salvation, teach the Scriptures, heal the sick, and set the captives free--just as Jesus did.
To distract us from declaring and displaying these works, the enemy of our soul attempts to get us to look and live in the past. Many believers today seem to prefer to reminisce about the mighty moves of God in former times rather than get involved with what He is doing now. While we should be thankful to God for every move of the Spirit, we can't live life always looking back. We aren't going to move forward very fast if we're always staring in the rearview mirror. We must see God at work in our day today. God is the God of the NOW! He is the great "I AM" who encompasses eternity.
Paul describes our mission and commission in terms of government and diplomacy when he says that we are "ambassadors for Christ" (2 Corinthians 5:20). The word "ambassador" is the English translation of the Greek word "presbeuo," which has the root meaning of being a senior representative possessing power and authority. An ambassador represents the government that appointed him. His power and authority are delegated. When he speaks in his official capacity as ambassador, his voice is the voice of the government he represents.
In the same way we, as God's ambassadors, represent His government--His Kingdom--here on earth. He has delegated His power and authority to us for that purpose. If we are His ambassadors, we have His authority to act in His name and on His behalf. This power and authority are actively at work in us right now!
The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand! We are to declare the same message as our Master. He has entrusted His Body, the Church, with the administration and expansion of His Kingdom on earth, which He established. We must extend to the world the same invitation as Jesus did when He said, "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (Matthew 11:28). This is an open-ended invitation for all who will to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
The time is now! The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!

I copied this from an e-mail I received from elijahlist.com

peace,
Ty

[Hitch]

So exactly when waas life better thani t is today?

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

Their version of Postmill is kind of like Amill. I think they call it Optimistic Postmill or something. Essentially, the Devil is already bound and the world is getting better because Christianity is advancing and will eventually take over the world. When that happens, Christ will return.

I probably didn't do a very good job explaining it since I'm a Premill.Basically, historic versions of postmillennialism saw the millennium as a future period of time during which there would be worldwide peace and propsperity, with virtually the whole world converted. Amillennialism, on the other hand, either saw the millennium as the whole period of history between the first and second advent of Christ, or else they saw it as a spiritual metaphor for salvation.

The people you're talking about, the new schoo of postmillennialists, have essentially combined these two views. They have the dominionist outlook of the historic postmillennialists, but the have the millennial theology of the amillennialists.

Gary Demar, a proponent of the new postmil view, once said that it could be called "optimistic amillennialism," which i think makes sense. It takes the optimism of the postmill view, and essentially combines it with amillennialism.

[Zguy28]

So exactly when waas life better thani t is today?Depends what you mean by better.

Certainly things like dentistry have improved, and thank the Lord for anesthesia.

But in other ways it was better. For instance, I loved shows like I Love Lucy and I imagine living before the threat of nuclear annihilation was a good thing.

Basically, the more we figure out how to better help mankind, the more we also figure how to degrade and destroy it as well.

[Hitch]

Depends what you mean by better.

Certainly things like dentistry have improved, and thank the Lord for anesthesia.

But in other ways it was better. For instance, I loved shows like I Love Lucy and I imagine living before the threat of nuclear annihilation was a good thing.

Basically, the more we figure out how to better help mankind, the more we also figure how to degrade and destroy it as well.
You really cant think of an all around better time can you?


Well the Isrealites could ,they comp[ained how much worse everything was, but at least they knew the golden days were there time in Egypt.....

[timspong]

Depends what you mean by better.

Certainly things like dentistry have improved, and thank the Lord for anesthesia.

But in other ways it was better. For instance, I loved shows like I Love Lucy and I imagine living before the threat of nuclear annihilation was a good thing.

Basically, the more we figure out how to better help mankind, the more we also figure how to degrade and destroy it as well.

Actually the post mill view was very popular around the turn of the last century, as everything seemed to be getting better. Then came world war one which quickly disintegrated that popular view. It is one of the reasons why Scofield's dispensationalism became very popular although IMO he went far too far, but he clearly debunked the popular notion of the "church replacement of Israel" theory.

This was the catalyst to popularize the chiliastic millennial view of the early church i.e. pre millennialism.

Once you have done an in-depth study on pre-millennialism, it is so difficult to debunk as it fits so well with all the eschatological information in the bible. I have an open mind on these issues but so far the pre-mill view seems to fit like a glove.

[Zguy28]

Actually the post mill view was very popular around the turn of the last century, as everything seemed to be getting better. Then came world war one which quickly disintegrated that popular view. It is one of the reasons why Scofield's dispensationalism became very popular although IMO he went far too far, but he clearly debunked the popular notion of the "church replacement of Israel" theory.

This was the catalyst to popularize the chiliastic millennial view of the early church i.e. pre millennialism.

Once you have done an in-depth study on pre-millennialism, it is so difficult to debunk as it fits so well with all the eschatological information in the bible. I have an open mind on these issues but so far the pre-mill view seems to fit like a glove.You can still believe the church is the real Israel and be Premillennial I think. Premill's don't have to be Dispensational.

[Hitch]

Actually the post mill view was very popular around the turn of the last century, as everything seemed to be getting better. Then came world war one which quickly disintegrated that popular view. It is one of the reasons why Scofield's dispensationalism became very popular although IMO he went far too far, but he clearly debunked the popular notion of the "church replacement of Israel" theory.

This was the catalyst to popularize the chiliastic millennial view of the early church i.e. pre millennialism.

Once you have done an in-depth study on pre-millennialism, it is so difficult to debunk as it fits so well with all the eschatological information in the bible. I have an open mind on these issues but so far the pre-mill view seems to fit like a glove.
John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.


Its easy if you quote Jesus Christ.

On the other hand I would be interested in seeing your quotes from Jesus speaking to a future temporal kingdom, I ve never been able to find one,perhaps you can.

[dizzle]

Interesting it is noted that premill is losing popularity becaues it looked like the world was going to end any day and when it didn't other views regained ground. Silly appeals like that are mind-numbingly fallacious.

[Zguy28]

Interesting it is noted that premill is losing popularity becaues it looked like the world was going to end any day and when it didn't other views regained ground. Silly appeals like that are mind-numbingly fallacious.Yeah, kind of like the time leading up to the Great War and the Flu epidemic was a mind-numbingly fallacious appeal for Postmill. :ahem: Sometimes you guys crack me up. :lol:


If you had to judge the world right now based on the Ten Commandments, do you think it is better or worse? Why or Why not?

[dizzle]

that was my whole point - I can't believe it flew right over your head. Timspong earlier tried to appeal to history in that way, and I turned it right against him.

As far as the Ten Commandments - well let's see, prior to Christ all of the gentile world were pagans. I think we are doing a tad bit better. Upon until a few hundred years ago, people were slaves based upon their race or gender. Gee whiz, I am an odd duck, so I think that is a little better.

You have to really out of touch with reality to think that the world hasn't gotten better since the Ten Commandments. How many goats have you sacrificied this week?

It is pathetic to see how little Christians think of the work of the Cross in history. Pathetic.

[gooner]

.........Scofield's dispensationalism became very popular although IMO he went far too far, but he clearly debunked the popular notion of the "church replacement of Israel" theory.

This was the catalyst to popularize the chiliastic millennial view of the early church i.e. pre millennialism.




just out of interest Tim.....were the 12 Apostles and the other 108 in the upper room in Acts 2 Israel or the Church?

[Hitch]

Yeah, kind of like the time leading up to the Great War and the Flu epidemic was a mind-numbingly fallacious appeal for Postmill. :ahem: Sometimes you guys crack me up. :lol:


If you had to judge the world right now based on the Ten Commandments, do you think it is better or worse? Why or Why not? Come on Z tell me when it was better. when was the golden age? !00 years ago? 200 ? 500 ?

[gharfish]

A true "golden age" there's never been. Therefore, it would have to be a future one.

[Hitch]

The "golden age" has never been. Therefore, it must still be future.Yup. The standard DF version of ever increasing apostacy speaks directly to their view of the Holy Spirit's historical ministry.

Calling God a failure while extolling the gains of satan is not a christian practice.

[dizzle]

Ghar I think you missed Hitch's point. He was asking when the world was so much better than today rather than vice versa. If any of you guys would like to go back in time when a case of simple diarhhea could kill any of your children, never mind the fact that your wife likely died in childbirth already, and as a man of thirty you are at a good age to die, and if you are lucky you might still have some teeth left.

[dizzle]

Yup. The standard DF version of ever increasing apostacy speaks directly to their view of the Holy Spirit's historical ministry.

Calling God a failure while extolling the gains of satan is not a christian practice.

Amen. Christ came to seek and save that which was lost and flush His good creation down the sewer. That isn't christianity, it is borderline gnosticism.

[Zguy28]

Come on Z tell me when it was better. when was the golden age? !00 years ago? 200 ? 500 ?Personally, anytime the church has undergone persecution. I don't look at it in a material way. But, I do know this, the true church flourishes in persecution and withers in comfort.

Yup. The standard DF version of ever increasing apostacy speaks directly to their view of the Holy Spirit's historical ministry.

Calling God a failure while extolling the gains of satan is not a christian practice.Who the heck calls God a failure (besides Kenneth Copeland)? And why do you keep acting like all Premill's are DF?

[Zguy28]

Amen. Christ came to seek and save that which was lost and flush His good creation down the sewer. You got the first part right.

That isn't christianity, it is borderline gnosticism.Nice.

[dizzle]

The belief that this material creation is inherently bad and God wants nothing to do with redeeming it is a gnostic belief. Now obviously the gnostics believed in a whole host of other things which made that pagan heretics; however, Christians have borrowed from them to our shame. If pessimisistic eschatological people were consistent they wouldn't have children - that is the height of irresponsibility. Though no one in this thread is hyperpreterist, that is part of the foundation of their denial of the bodily resurrection. God has no interest in redeeming the material.

[dizzle]

I see there is not an answer of when the world was so much better than today. IMHO it is the Biblical position that when the Gospel is being preached the world is immeasurably better. Retreatism is not God-honouring. Waiting to get zapped into the sky isn't God-honouring. Investing for the long-term future of our children and our children's children and creating things of long-term value is.

I remember hearing some host say that the medieval cathredrals could never have been built by modern Christians. We see things in years and could never be a part of anything that we knew wouldn't be finished for a century. We can't see past our noses. In that respect, the world has gotten worse, and sadly, it isn't the world that has, it is the church. The world sees in a much longer term than us in the Church. And we wonder why we are culturally impotent. Why can't the people of God get rid of abortion in this country? Because we can't formulate a long-term plan and stick with it but go lusting after the latest Court decision, and if it doesn't go our way play chicken little.

[dizzle]

Who the heck calls God a failure (besides Kenneth Copeland)? And why do you keep acting like all Premill's are DF?

If you say the culture is doomed and the worst is destined to go to pot, you are claiming God is a failure in time and history. Dispensational or not. Dispensationalists have the added problem of race-idolatry.

[Hitch]

Personally, anytime the church has undergone persecution. I don't look at it in a material way. But, I do know this, the true church flourishes in persecution and withers in comfort.

Will you soon be moving to some country where persecution is taking place then? Tell me do you pray that your children will be persecuted? Do you pray that the members of your home church will come under persecution/? I know you can site apostolic teaching that we should accept persecution with joy, can you show me any citations teaching that persecution is bettter than peace and that we should pray for it? If it really is better shouldnt we pray for it?


Who the heck calls God a failure (besides Kenneth Copeland)? The system that teaches that while the church is on earth satan reigns. And why do you keep acting like all Premill's are DF? I dont

[TyRockwell]

Where do you get the idea that Kenneth Copeland calls God a failure?

[timspong]

John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.


Its easy if you quote Jesus Christ.

On the other hand I would be interested in seeing your quotes from Jesus speaking to a future temporal kingdom, I ve never been able to find one,perhaps you can.

Is not all scripture relevant?

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

Actually the post mill view was very popular around the turn of the last century, as everything seemed to be getting better. Then came world war one which quickly disintegrated that popular view. That's an unfortunate reflection of the way evangelicals thought - and ther tragic way some of them still think. It's so incredibly shortsighted. The thought that since several decades can undermine a promise that is to unfold over centuries is just to confuse our immediate here and now circumstances for the limits of what God can or will do, which makes our own culture, day and age the measure of all things.

I'd say the Apostles might have felt that way too - right before Pentecost, that is!
It is one of the reasons why Scofield's dispensationalism became very popular although IMO he went far too far, but he clearly debunked the popular notion of the "church replacement of Israel" theory.Clearly denying something is not the same as clearly debunking it. And it's not so much a replacement as a continuation anyway, so if Scofield met what you say, he was up against a strawman anyway.
This was the catalyst to popularize the chiliastic millennial view of the early church i.e. pre millennialism.It's very important not to make the error of mixing up chiliasm (i.e. belief in a future millennium) with premillennialism (i.e. belief that the bodily return of Christ is prior to that millennium). The two are not the same, and while many Fathers held to an odd form of chiliasm (i.e. they taught that history was divided up into seven millenniums, based on the seven days of creation plus the sabbath/millennium), this is not the same as them teaching premillennialism.
Once you have done an in-depth study on pre-millennialism, it is so difficult to debunk as it fits so well with all the eschatological information in the bible. I have an open mind on these issues but so far the pre-mill view seems to fit like a glove.Suggested here is that those at this forum who are not premillennialists have not done an in depth study of it. Wanna re-think that?

[gharfish]

Ghar I think you missed Hitch's point. He was asking when the world was so much better than today rather than vice versa. If any of you guys would like to go back in time when a case of simple diarhhea could kill any of your children, never mind the fact that your wife likely died in childbirth already, and as a man of thirty you are at a good age to die, and if you are lucky you might still have some teeth left.I got his point. It had just registered with me then (recalled) that, in general, postmillennialism expects a "golden age" that's begun, but especially coming on. I believe it IS coming, but not before Jesus returns. I see it beginning once (after) He returns. For all I know, Hitch may be amillennial; but if he is a dominionist he likely is (post...). I ought to read his posts, in total...and more carefully too. (I *imagine he is strong on theonomy (?)

I am NOT trying to start a fight. So, I shouldn't have posted. Other than the doctrine of hell, eschatology doesn't interest me very much--not unless I think dispensationalism is taking unfair (IMO) "fire" from 'enemies' of it.

[timspong]

that was my whole point - I can't believe it flew right over your head. Timspong earlier tried to appeal to history in that way, and I turned it right against him.

As far as the Ten Commandments - well let's see, prior to Christ all of the gentile world were pagans. I think we are doing a tad bit better. Upon until a few hundred years ago, people were slaves based upon their race or gender. Gee whiz, I am an odd duck, so I think that is a little better.

You have to really out of touch with reality to think that the world hasn't gotten better since the Ten Commandments. How many goats have you sacrificied this week?

It is pathetic to see how little Christians think of the work of the Cross in history. Pathetic.

There are still millions of slaves in the world. Even here in Nigeria there are probably hundreds of thousands of slaves, people stolen or sold from their villages and neighboring countries. Also, the practise Selling and kidnaping children for human sacrifice is also still very common.

Just because the "west" took the high moral ground and made slave trading illegal it still continues in the majority of the world as it always did and probably always will. BTW the bible is written with this reality in mind.

I would suggest traveling around the world a bit to see it first hand rather than relying on a spoon feeding media that distorts and packages views as commodities and will gladly supply you a view of the world that sells well.

Even within Christianity the commercialization of churches, creeping legalism and creeping liberalization are at an all time high.

Today’s liberal society has never been further away form conforming to Christ IMO. The devil won't get anywhere by blatant wars etc. he is eroding the church and society far more subtly from within, altering our sense of fleshly morality to be completely opposed to the message of the cross.

IMO The cross has and will achieve everything that God intended for it.

[timspong]

That's an unfortunate reflection of the way evangelicals thought - and ther tragic way some of them still think. It's so incredibly shortsighted. The thought that since several decades can undermine a promise that is to unfold over centuries is just to confuse our immediate here and now circumstances for the limits of what God can or will do, which makes our own culture, day and age the measure of all things.

I'd say the Apostles might have felt that way too - right before Pentecost, that is!
Clearly denying something is not the same as clearly debunking it. And it's not so much a replacement as a continuation anyway, so if Scofield met what you say, he was up against a strawman anyway.
It's very important not to make the error of mixing up chiliasm (i.e. belief in a future millennium) with premillennialism (i.e. belief that the bodily return of Christ is prior to that millennium). The two are not the same, and while many Fathers held to an odd form of chiliasm (i.e. they taught that history was divided up into seven millenniums, based on the seven days of creation plus the sabbath/millennium), this is not the same as them teaching premillennialism.
Suggested here is that those at this forum who are not premillennialists have not done an in depth study of it. Wanna re-think that?

Did the postmill view become less popular during the first world war period or not?

Does chiliasm put a physical Christ on the throne or not?

I would guess that the majority of non-premillennialists have studied it with a lack of conviction and in a negative context.

[timspong]

just out of interest Tim.....were the 12 Apostles and the other 108 in the upper room in Acts 2 Israel or the Church?

Members of both, ie Israelite Christians.

[timspong]

Come on Z tell me when it was better. when was the golden age? !00 years ago? 200 ? 500 ?

The christian church was maturing the fastest during the persecution of the early church IMO.

[timspong]

Yup. The standard DF version of ever increasing apostacy speaks directly to their view of the Holy Spirit's historical ministry.

Calling God a failure while extolling the gains of satan is not a christian practice.

Satan can't do what God does not allow (see Job).

[timspong]

Will you soon be moving to some country where persecution is taking place then? Tell me do you pray that your children will be persecuted? Do you pray that the members of your home church will come under persecution/? I know you can site apostolic teaching that we should accept persecution with joy, can you show me any citations teaching that persecution is bettter than peace and that we should pray for it? If it really is better shouldnt we pray for it? The system that teaches that while the church is on earth satan reigns. I dont

I am speaking from personal experience when I say that growth in Christ is much faster during times of adversity. No one in their right mind prays to get tested and undergo trials. However, God knows what is good for us.

Each of us has our own personal syllabus with the perfect teacher towards a unique function. I would be very wary about any curriculum that does not have trials.

BTW the bible teaches that satan rules the material world until he is put into chains. If satan is already in chains, who is causing all the evil in the world?

[TyRockwell]

BTW the bible teaches that satan rules the material world until he is put into chains. If satan is already in chains, who is causing all the evil in the world?

Evil and deceived people cause all the trouble in this world. Many are influenced by satan or evil spirits, so satan is not yet in chains, though his former authority was taken away, when Jesus rose from the dead and was given "all authority in heaven and on earth." Matthew 28:18.
Therefore satan only rules were he is not resisted. James said, "resist the devil and he will flee from you." James 4:7

[dizzle]

For once I agree with Ty and found one place where his exegesis is not atrocious.

[dizzle]

Did the postmill view become less popular during the first world war period or not?

Irrelevant. Are most cults premillennial?

Does chiliasm put a physical Christ on the throne or not?

Does chiliasm deprive Christ of His current throne in favour of a carnal Jewish fable?

I would guess that the majority of non-premillennialists have studied it with a lack of conviction and in a negative context.

I would guess that you must be pretty insecure to think that. If I wasn't forbidden by my husband to give personal information you would be quite surprised of the context in which I learned and believed premill. Like the Apostle Paul when speaking to the Jews, I bet you dollars to donuts that my pedigree completely beats up your pedigree, but that is all dung.

[dizzle]

I got his point. It had just registered with me then (recalled) that, in general, postmillennialism expects a "golden age" that's begun, but especially coming on. I believe it IS coming, but not before Jesus returns. I see it beginning once (after) He returns. For all I know, Hitch may be amillennial; but if he is a dominionist he likely is (post...). I ought to read his posts, in total...and more carefully too. (I *imagine he is strong on theonomy (?)

Funny after all these years [you guys may not know but Hitch and I go back - man is it nearly ten years now? he knew me before I was a committed preterist] but I never bothered to ask him specifically his stance. I believe he is a postmill and theonomist, but perhaps not. He might be amill as Jack Bauer is amill. And though I sound theonomist, I would not call myself that yet - perhaps some day, but I think what I espouse is just consistent Christian respect for the decrees of God and think it is sad [I am not referring to you at all Gar now, I am on my soapbox] that such things are thought to be automatic theonomy, though without a doubt, I am completely sympathetic to theonomy, but in my mind, I think I am coming to a bit of a different understanding of it than most, in the same way that my preterism is a little different than the mainstream - ask me about that sometime if you are interested.

I am NOT trying to start a fight. So, I shouldn't have posted. Other than the doctrine of hell, eschatology doesn't interest me very much--not unless I think dispensationalism is taking unfair (IMO) "fire" from 'enemies' of it.

Gar I love you too much to fight with you now. I promised you that I would never purposefully push your buttons again as I did in the past and repented of. I am not trying to fight with you but I do think that the other posters are being cartoonish in their understanding and not really attempting at all to try to think out of the evangelical box.

Hey did you see that John Hagee video I have posted on my site? I definitely now call him a blithering heretic, and I think you would agree.

[dizzle]

There are still millions of slaves in the world. Even here in Nigeria there are probably hundreds of thousands of slaves, people stolen or sold from their villages and neighboring countries. Also, the practise Selling and kidnaping children for human sacrifice is also still very common.

And that too will stop. I didn't say it was ALL gone, I said it was not as all pervasive as it once was.

Just because the "west" took the high moral ground and made slave trading illegal it still continues in the majority of the world as it always did and probably always will.

Methinks you need to take off the blackened glasses. Slavery does not continue in the majority of the world, and it will end.

BTW the bible is written with this reality in mind.

Don't blaspheme the Bible in that way.

I would suggest traveling around the world a bit to see it first hand rather than relying on a spoon feeding media that distorts and packages views as commodities and will gladly supply you a view of the world that sells well.

Here you are with your arrogance again. You don't know a thing about me or where I have been or what I know.

Even within Christianity the commercialization of churches, creeping legalism and creeping liberalization are at an all time high.

True, but one does not judge millennia by decades. Again that eschatological myopia is creeping in.



IMO The cross has and will achieve everything that God intended for it.

The redemption of creation - I agree, my God has much bigger plans that just a shivering and scared church with the big bad devil walking about to devour it. You could never conquer the world with the Gospel with your attitude.

[dizzle]

Suggested here is that those at this forum who are not premillennialists have not done an in depth study of it. Wanna re-think that?

I found that uproarously hilarious. And sadly patronizing by Tim. But of course, we must all be ignorant or surely we would agree with him. :rofl:

[Hitch]

Is not all scripture relevant?
John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.


Its easy if you quote Jesus Christ.

On the other hand I would be interested in seeing your quotes from Jesus speaking to a future temporal kingdom, I ve never been able to find one,perhaps you can.
Is not all scripture relevant?

John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


All?


John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.



Do you want me to pretend that ias a real question?

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Because I cant even pretend it has any bearing on the matter at hand

[Hitch]

I am speaking from personal experience when I say that growth in Christ is much faster during times of adversity. No one in their right mind prays to get tested and undergo trials. However, God knows what is good for us.

Each of us has our own personal syllabus with the perfect teacher towards a unique function. I would be very wary about any curriculum that does not have trials.

BTW the bible teaches that satan rules the material world until he is put into chains. If satan is already in chains, who is causing all the evil in the world?Well those questions were specificly for Z but I have no doubt niether of you would really put your money where your mouth is. Your camo is easy to see.


WRT eveil,,,, Lets stop inat the local Primary Grade Sujnday School class. they're talking about Jesus and the stories he opened his ministry with. . Jesus said that during his kingdom the good boys and the bad boys would live side by side, that is. until the end.

[Hitch]

The christian church was maturing the fastest during the persecution of the early church IMO.Yawn,,

Its clear you have no answer to the question and no intention of addressing when life was better.

[timspong]

I would guess that you must be pretty insecure to think that. If I wasn't forbidden by my husband to give personal information you would be quite surprised of the context in which I learned and believed premill. Like the Apostle Paul when speaking to the Jews, I bet you dollars to donuts that my pedigree completely beats up your pedigree, but that is all dung.

I am genuinely relieved to hear this. I have made no firm commitment to the pre-mill view, but having studied it in a fair amount of detail, there is an awful lot of evidence in scripture that will need to be refuted before I look elsewhere.

[gharfish]

Funny after all these years [you guys may not know but Hitch and I go back - man is it nearly ten years now? he knew me before I was a committed preterist] but I never bothered to ask him specifically his stance. I believe he is a postmill and theonomist, but perhaps not. He might be amill as Jack Bauer is amill. And though I sound theonomist, I would not call myself that yet - perhaps some day, but I think what I espouse is just consistent Christian respect for the decrees of God and think it is sad [I am not referring to you at all Gar now, I am on my soapbox] that such things are thought to be automatic theonomy, though without a doubt, I am completely sympathetic to theonomy, but in my mind, I think I am coming to a bit of a different understanding of it than most, in the same way that my preterism is a little different than the mainstream - ask me about that sometime if you are interested.I can appreciate that, that respect for the decrees of God is right ! Thank you for explaining your thoughts about theonomy: how you are seeing yourself in sympathy with it, but differing from the mainstream on what it is (....should be (?) And, yes, I would be interested to hear about some of the ways your understanding of, and convictions about, partial preterism depart a bit from the mainstream.



Gar I love you too much to fight with you now. I promised you that I would never purposefully push your buttons again as I did in the past and repented of. I am not trying to fight with you but I do think that the other posters are being cartoonish in their understanding and not really attempting at all to try to think out of the evangelical box.I feel the same way, Dee Dee.

I could see that you felt the treatment/s of your beliefs were unfair. And I realize now that it probably sounded like I was kind of taking a jab at you, personally, in having remarked of my objections regarding the mistreament of dispensationalism; this, in my previous post.

Hey did you see that John Hagee video I have posted on my site? I definitely now call him a blithering heretic, and I think you would agree.I will go and see. I don't trust him. No. He is famously building his ministry on this unnatural "affection" (IMO) for the nation of Israel. I don't get what he is doing in this sudden great outpouring of "support of" Israel. It's too simplistic and is suspiciously weird, for me. What is it, really ? We are Israel's political and military allies. What else should we be to and for them ? rats.

If Hagee it intent on simply attempting to let them know that evangelicals are sincerely reaching out to them now to mend relations on behalf of us all [for antisemitism they have dealt with for centuries from Christians] then that is well and good. They are our spiritual brothers.

But I see Hagee has an 'unnatural' (a strong word, I know) affection for them. It doesn't make sense...doesn't ring true. Look at his books. *The main problem is that he has had it all mapped out prophetically from the Iraq war up to [next] a future war with Iran. He can't do that, because the Bible says nothing of the Afghanistan or Iraq war. He's playing up Iran, wildly. America is not in the prophetic texts either. And does he think the Jews are so stupid--clueless, about how he's got WWI I I all firmly mapped out, in detail, in a couple of best-selling books right about now ?

I don't know what heretical beliefs he may have ( I will check out the video you have, for I am concerned), but I am getting more and more disgusted in the calculated direction he has taken lately. What is the meat of his blessing of Israel ? What does he think is Christendom's moral duty today about the nation ? I have not read but a chapter or two of the first book; that was enough to make [me] want to rather "disown" him from the DF camp, if I could. He is a loose cannon.

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

Did the postmill view become less popular during the first world war period or not? Yes it did. I also gave some reasons why this is the case, and the fact that some Christians make their culture the measure of all things is very sad.
Does chiliasm put a physical Christ on the throne or not?Chiliasm leaves that as an open question. You can be a chiliast and believe that Christ will reign on a physical throne on earth, or you can be a chiliast and deny that. As I explained, the earlier form of postmillennialism was a form of chliasm.
I would guess that the majority of non-premillennialists have studied it with a lack of conviction and in a negative context.That's because you're arrogant, and you've assumed that those who disagree with you do so because they are either ignorant or more sinful than you.

[timspong]

I would guess that the majority of non-premillennialists have studied it with a lack of conviction and in a negative context.


That's because you're arrogant, and you've assumed that those who disagree with you do so because they are either ignorant or more sinful than you.

Not only is my statement true IMO, it can probably be applied to just about any theological stance. The only people it wouldn't apply to in this case, are those that were premill but have since changed their opinion, which I am sure is a lot less than half.

Also, I wasn't talking of ignorance, I was talking lack of belief in the subject matter at hand which would have obvious implications on perception.

BTW calling anyone arrogant on this thread is a little like shooting fish in a barrel IMO.

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

Not only is my statement true IMO, it can probably be applied to just about any theological stance. The only people it wouldn't apply to in this case, are those that were premill but have since changed their opinion, which I am sure is a lot less than half.I was premil, but am no longer.
Also, I wasn't talking of ignorance, I was talking lack of belief in the subject matter at hand which would have obvious implications on perception.You mean lack of belief in the Bible? You can't be serious.
BTW calling anyone arrogant on this thread is a little like shooting fish in a barrel IMO.Your comment was directed to me, and my accusation was directed at you. What have I said to suggest arrogance on my part in my approach to premils?

Seriously, you need to completely re-evaluate the way you see your fellow Christians who are not premillennial and how they reached those conclusions.

[timspong]

I was premil, but am no longer.
You mean lack of belief in the Bible? You can't be serious.
Your comment was directed to me, and my accusation was directed at you. What have I said to suggest arrogance on my part in my approach to premils?

Seriously, you need to completely re-evaluate the way you see your fellow Christians who are not premillennial and how they reached those conclusions.

At this point it is clear that you are either unintentionally injecting a lot of assumption into my posts or you are deliberately trying to wind me up.

[TyRockwell]

For once I agree with Ty and found one place where his exegesis is not atrocious.

I am honored by your generous affirmation, finally. :woohoo:

[dizzle]

Tim I will make a bet with you - are you a betting man? Heck I would lay out some serious cash on this, cause I would whup your hiney so thoroughly on your ignorant statement that you wouldn't be able to sit for a year.

The only people it wouldn't apply to in this case, are those that were premill but have since changed their opinion, which I am sure is a lot less than half.

I would bet its a whole heck of a lot more than half here at this site - who is the people you are talking to. Let me be REAL bold - ALL of the preterists that I know on this site WERE ALL former premills. If there is an exception, I am unaware of it.

So you are so dead wrong, I don't think it is possible to be even more wrong.

Now if you are restricting your comment to just amill people, I wouldn't know that - but I would still feel very comfortable in wagering a bet that it was more than half easily. But when you get to preterists, heck go survey outside of this side, and easily 80-90% of them were all premills.

[dizzle]

Seriously, you need to completely re-evaluate the way you see your fellow Christians who are not premillennial and how they reached those conclusions.

I agree.

[dizzle]

I can appreciate that, that respect for the decrees of God is right ! Thank you for explaining your thoughts about theonomy: how you are seeing yourself in sympathy with it, but differing from the mainstream on what it is (....should be (?) And, yes, I would be interested to hear about some of the ways your understanding of, and convictions about, partial preterism depart a bit from the mainstream.

We may have discussed this a bit before, but generally I am not hostile to the idea of multiple typological fulfillments as many preterists are - and I think their hostility is crippling and unbiblical. But more importantly the watershed moment for me was not thinking of the First and Second Coming of Christ as two completely separate events sprinkled in with demonstrations of His reign in judgment at certain events. I believe the entire period of the Messianic reign (continuing from the first century through now and beyond to the consummation ) IS the Advent of Christ, bookended by two physical advents. To me this makes much more sense of preterism, emasculates hyperpreterism (though that isn't hard to do, and emasculate might be giving them too much credit for potency - perhaps "spaying" it would be a more appropriate metaphor ) - thus unlike most preterists, I believe "Behold He comes with the clouds" is a present reality and don't put Revelation 1:7 only in the first century. I have found out recently and independantly that prominent preterist Keith Mathison arrived at this conclusion - he was pleasantly surprised when I wrote him to run my "theory" by him and said he believed the same thing and in fact was in the process of writing a book on it!

I have found some older commentaries that took this position. I think [though they won't admit it yet] that I am convincing some preterists here of my point and some "still in the closet" preterists.
I don't trust him. No. He is famously building his ministry on this unnatural "affection" (IMO) for the nation of Israel. I don't get what he is doing in this sudden great outpouring of "support of" Israel. It's too simplistic and is suspiciously weird, for me. What is it, really ? We are Israel's political and military allies. What else should we be to and for them ? rats.

Check out the video linked here:

http://threshingfloor.onevoicemm.net/weblog/?p=868

[timspong]

Tim I will make a bet with you - are you a betting man? Heck I would lay out some serious cash on this, cause I would whup your hiney so thoroughly on your ignorant statement that you wouldn't be able to sit for a year.



I would bet its a whole heck of a lot more than half here at this site - who is the people you are talking to. Let me be REAL bold - ALL of the preterists that I know on this site WERE ALL former premills. If there is an exception, I am unaware of it.

So you are so dead wrong, I don't think it is possible to be even more wrong.

Now if you are restricting your comment to just amill people, I wouldn't know that - but I would still feel very comfortable in wagering a bet that it was more than half easily. But when you get to preterists, heck go survey outside of this side, and easily 80-90% of them were all premills.

ok,ok I believe you and officially take back what I said and now admit that I may have been very surprisingly over presumptuous. Now how do did you get from here to there?

[dizzle]

Okay, its all cool. Thanks for seeing that might have been a bit hasty.

[AaronG]

I just thought of something:Since in the Gospel according to Hymie preterists,there is no complete removal of sin and wickedness,They will have to endure the likes of Hitler,Stalin,Mussolini,Mao,Pol pot,Genghis Khan,Kim Il Sung,Idi Amin,Jim Jones ,Napoleon Bonaparte and other tyrants FOREVER!!!!Great Worldview huh????