The Four Euphratean Angels

[Zguy28]

Who do you think these are?

My interpretation:

And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

I am not sure that these actually represent angels. There are differing opinions among commentators. John Wesley takes the image literally saying “These were evil angels, or they would not have been bound.” Adam Clark contends that it could refer to the Turks, Mongols, Saracens, or Arabs. Both seem plausible explanations.

First we must look at where these “angels” will come from. The text says that they are bound at the Euphrates, meaning they previously have not been able to cross it. This means they must come from the East.
So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour, the day, the month, and the year, were released to kill a third of mankind.
The number of mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand; I heard their number.
And this is how I saw the horses in my vision and those who rode them: they wore breastplates the color of fire and of sapphire and of sulfur, and the heads of the horses were like lions' heads, and fire and smoke and sulfur came out of their mouths.
By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed, by the fire and smoke and sulfur coming out of their mouths.
For the power of the horses is in their mouths and in their tails, for their tails are like serpents with heads, and by means of them they wound.
The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands nor give up worshiping demons and idols of gold and silver and bronze and stone and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk,
nor did they repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.
The first angel is represented in history by the Seljuk Turks under Togrul Beg, who conquered parts of Persia and Baghdad. From there he was able to launch offensives against the Byzantine Empire in 1054 and acquire land in Syria and Asia Minor.

The second angel most likely refers to Genghis Khan and the great Mongol invasion of the West. Genghis Khan conquered much of Western Asia, but it was his grandson Hulagu Khan who sacked Baghdad and crossed over the Euphrates River in the 1250’s. He pushed as far as Palestine and Syria with his Mongol horsemen. Throughout their history the Mongol Tatars were responsible for the deaths of millions of people. Regardless of this, the inhabitants that survived these great scourges did not repent of their idolatry, immoralities, and indulgences.

The third angel is Timur (Tamerlane). In the year 1399 he sacked Damascus. In 1401 he put Baghdad to the sword and massacred twenty thousand inhabitants before proceeding on to Asia Minor.

The fourth angel is in reference to the Ottoman Turks under the Sultan Mehmed II. At the age of 21 in 1453, he laid siege to and captured Constantinople. This effectively ended the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire and resulted in the figurative slaying of a “third part of men.”

It should be noted that the four angels are said by John to destroy a third of mankind “by the fire and smoke and sulfur coming out of their mouths.” I believe these three elements can be looked at in the literal. When the Ottoman Turks captured Constantinople, they were of use of cannons, which do result in all three of these elements. This certainly seems plausible as well. Or it could represent war (fire) and false doctrine/Islam (smoke). The sulfur is the unknown, at least to me.

In addition to these plagues upon man, this period includes the time up until the current era. It is where we are presently in the unfolding of history and prophecy.

[eschaton]

I have been studying the four angels recently and have accumulated a lot of information that I haven't written down yet.

I think I view these things basically different than you, but that's okay.

"Four angels" occurs four times, Rev 7:1, 7:2, 9:14, 9:15. The four most notable angels in scripture are probably Ezekiel's cherubim (Eze 10). These are closely associated with God's throne and temple, and with the living beasts in Revelation 4, 5, 6. Other closely related angels are the seraphim , Isa. 6:2-6.

Some of the church fathers associated the cherubim with wisdom, and since Paul said God's wisdom is not about the princes or rulers of this world I will decline any sort of historical interpretation. Hebrews declines to elaborate on the cherubim (Heb 9:5).

Sometimes in eschatology we see a gathering from the four corners of the earth or heaven (Mat 24:31, Rev 20:8) and the four horns of the altar (Rev 9:13) are related to this. The four cherubim are associated with the four corners (directions) of all of creation. Note that the Euphrates (Rev 9:14, 16:12) is also one of the rivers running from the Garden of Eden.

IMO the four angels control the four winds, and these are perhaps the same cherubim represented by the four beasts. The seven angels found in Revelation, that are known to preceed or bring out firey judgments, are probably seaphim.

[Zguy28]

Do you see any significance in the same greek word being translated as "bound" as is used to describe the Dragon during the thousand years?

Does it imply anything about their nature?

[eschaton]

Satan "the dragon" is bound a thousand years. He has seven heads and ten horns, the same as the beast which emerges from the sea in 13. The beast appears to be a consolidation of Daniels four beasts in Dan. 7. Those four beasts are related to fallen angels and apostasy IMO. The four cherubim introduce the four horsemen. So yes, I think "bound" is related. Thanks for asking.

[Zguy28]

Satan "the dragon" is bound a thousand years. He has seven heads and ten horns, the same as the beast which emerges from the sea in 13. The beast appears to be a consolidation of Daniels four beasts in Dan. 7. Those four beasts are related to fallen angels and apostasy IMO. The four cherubim introduce the four horsemen. So yes, I think "bound" is related. Thanks for asking.Maybe I'm not following you, but are you saying the Four Horsemen are the Four Euphratean Angels?

Or that they are all just simply "held back" in a similar fashion?

What I was getting at is, since we know that the Dragon is to be bound, so that he can't do evil (by deception), does that imply that the 4 angels are evil by nature as well?

[eschaton]

It could be that the Eurphratean angels are the horsemen, or perhaps another form of that. What do all these things really represent? What does it mean for Satan to be bound? It means freedom from his deception (Rev 20:3). When Jude and Peter talk about fallen angels they talk about false teachers (Jude 4-6, 2 Pet 2).

The Law was ordained by angels (Acts 7:53). While Moses was on the mountain the people made a golden calf and called it their God. Why a calf? The seventy elders had previously seen the throne of God (Exo 24:10). Note the saphire stones as in Eze 1:26. They should have seen the cherubim and perhaps they mistook them for God (Eze 10:14, Eze 1:10, Rev 4:7). The face of an oxen is equated to the face of a cherub. The difference between an oxen and a calf, besides the age, is that the latter doesn't have horns.

It is a case of worshipping creation rather than the Creator. The angelic calf is worshipped rather than God.

The Israelites believed bringing the Ark of God into their camp would bring them victory (1 Sam 4). The idea backfired because the put their faith in the ark rather than God.

When creation is put above God it is like angels rebelling (Ezek 28:16). This is brought about by false teachers who are like fallen angels. Creation puts itself above Creator.

I think what we see in Revelation is a rebellion that is more theological than geo-political.

[TyRockwell]

Hi, eschaton and Zguy,

You both have some interesting ideas, but I think you, eschaton, are closer to the truth.

The 4 angels of chapter 7 were to hold back the 4 spirits. These 4 were bound because Jesus had ascended to his throne and had all power and authority, at the close of the time covered by the sixth seal, corresponding to the life, ministry and resurrection of Jesus in Rev. 6:12-17.

The Lord had transfered his authority (dominion and power) to the church, saying, "Go in my name," and "I confer on you a kingdom even as my Father has conferred one on me." Jesus is seated at God's right hand and we are seated there together with him, Eph. 1 and 2. The 4 spirits are enemies, that we struggle with, (1)principalities, (2)powers, (3)the rulers of the darkness of this age, and (4) spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenlies, according to Eph. 6:12. They were bound during Jesus' life and a short period of time after his departure, which time was the "silence in heaven (the heavens) for one hour." Rev. 8:1

During the 40 years of that silence, the early church was sealed, consisting mostly of Jews, represented figuratively by the 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes, chapter seven. The last half of chapter 7 was the opening of the gospel to the gentiles who are included with the Jews and mentioned in Rev.7:9-17. This is our position now, before the throne. We come boldly to the throne, Heb. 4:16. We who are in Him each have the potential to be delivered out of tribulation by standing "firm to the end," Matthew 24: 13 ('saved' meaning delivered').

The Rev.8:1 seventh seal opened was the completion of the New Testament writings, as the seals were the giving of God's Word into the earth, from Genesis to Revelation. The seven angels who stand before God, Rev. 8:2 are the seven angels representing the seven angels of the seven churches from chpts 2 & 3. They were given the seven trumpets, which is the message of the king's dominion (kingdom) that Jesus gave, himself being the first trumpet, Rev.1:10-11 that Jesus gave to the church(es).

The 'thirds" were first mentioned in conjunction with the 7 trumpets of the church. In this context, the 'thirds' cover TIME, not people. "A third of the people of the earth then can be seen as the 2000 years known as the 'church age' or the age of the Holy Spirit, one third of 6000 years.

The 1st trumpet was Jesus, the 2nd was apostles, the third was prophets. During that time false doctrines began to be introduced into the church. The false doctrines are "Wormwood" meaning 'bitter waters.' The "star that fell" Rev. 9:1 points to the time of the emphasis of "pastors," the 5th trumpet. This fall was the use of a Judaic "priesthood " in the church, through the Holy Roman Empire, and Catholicism. It opened the 'can of worms' we are still dealing with, the struggle between church and state.

The 6th trumpet, and the 4 angels holding back the 4 spirits began to release them, because the church had ceeded much of its authority to the state. The 4 spirits make use of their power to influence governments. Again, these 4 spirits are (1) principalities, (2) powers, (3) the rulers of the darkness of this age, and (4) spirit being forces of evil in heavenly places, the invisible realm of spirits.

The first three spirits correspond to the Babylon, Persia and Greece natures of the beast in Rev. 13. The 4th spirit released by the 4th angel relates to the false religion of the Euphrates area, the Islamic Whore of Babylon.

The "third of mankind" killed represents the history of bloody warfare for nearly 2000 years, one third of 6000, culminating in this time of explosives, fire, sulfur and 200 million people killed in wars during this past century, the very hour, the minute, the day the month, the year, and the century.

Does this answer your question?

Ty

[eschaton]

Hi, eschaton and Zguy,

You both have some interesting ideas, but I think you, eschaton, are closer to the truth.

The 4 angels of chapter 7 were to hold back the 4 spirits. These 4 were bound because Jesus had ascended to his throne and had all power and authority, at the close of the time covered by the sixth seal, corresponding to the life, ministry and resurrection of Jesus in Rev. 6:12-17.

The Lord had transfered his authority (dominion and power) to the church, saying, "Go in my name," and "I confer on you a kingdom even as my Father has conferred one on me." Jesus is seated at God's right hand and we are seated there together with him, Eph. 1 and 2. The 4 spirits are enemies, that we struggle with, (1)principalities, (2)powers, (3)the rulers of the darkness of this age, and (4) spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenlies, according to Eph. 6:12. They were bound during Jesus' life and a short period of time after his departure, which time was the "silence in heaven (the heavens) for one hour." Rev. 8:1

During the 40 years of that silence, the early church was sealed, consisting mostly of Jews, represented figuratively by the 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes, chapter seven. The last half of chapter 7 was the opening of the gospel to the gentiles who are included with the Jews and mentioned in Rev.7:9-17. This is our position now, before the throne. We come boldly to the throne, Heb. 4:16. We who are in Him each have the potential to be delivered out of tribulation by standing "firm to the end," Matthew 24: 13 ('saved' meaning delivered').

The Rev.8:1 seventh seal opened was the completion of the New Testament writings, as the seals were the giving of God's Word into the earth, from Genesis to Revelation. The seven angels who stand before God, Rev. 8:2 are the seven angels representing the seven angels of the seven churches from chpts 2 & 3. They were given the seven trumpets, which is the message of the king's dominion (kingdom) that Jesus gave, himself being the first trumpet, Rev.1:10-11 that Jesus gave to the church(es).

The 'thirds" were first mentioned in conjunction with the 7 trumpets of the church. In this context, the 'thirds' cover TIME, not people. "A third of the people of the earth then can be seen as the 2000 years known as the 'church age' or the age of the Holy Spirit, one third of 6000 years.

The 1st trumpet was Jesus, the 2nd was apostles, the third was prophets. During that time false doctrines began to be introduced into the church. The false doctrines are "Wormwood" meaning 'bitter waters.' The "star that fell" Rev. 9:1 points to the time of the emphasis of "pastors," the 5th trumpet. This fall was the use of a Judaic "priesthood " in the church, through the Holy Roman Empire, and Catholicism. It opened the 'can of worms' we are still dealing with, the struggle between church and state.

The 6th trumpet, and the 4 angels holding back the 4 spirits began to release them, because the church had ceeded much of its authority to the state. The 4 spirits make use of their power to influence governments. Again, these 4 spirits are (1) principalities, (2) powers, (3) the rulers of the darkness of this age, and (4) spirit being forces of evil in heavenly places, the invisible realm of spirits.

The first three spirits correspond to the Babylon, Persia and Greece natures of the beast in Rev. 13. The 4th spirit released by the 4th angel relates to the false religion of the Euphrates area, the Islamic Whore of Babylon.

The "third of mankind" killed represents the history of bloody warfare for nearly 2000 years, one third of 6000, culminating in this time of explosives, fire, sulfur and 200 million people killed in wars during this past century, the very hour, the minute, the day the month, the year, and the century.

Does this answer your question?

Ty


Your post raises questions for me.

Do you believe the seals correspond to the life, ministry and resurrection of Jesus, or just the sixth seal. If just the sixth seal, what do the other seals correspond to?

On what do you base that the church consisted mainly of Jews during the 40 years of silence? The seven churches were in Asia. Should we think they consisted mostly of Jews? Why were the heavens silent during the 40 years of binding? Wouldn't the spiritual powers be silent instead?

I believe you're saying the trumpets represent a kind of historicism, while the seals represent events prior to the writing of Revelation. If that is the case, what about the last 12 chapters in the book, and why does Rev 1:1 say it is about things which must shortly come to pass if they had already past?

You tie in Babylon, Persia, Greece and Islam. In what way do the spiritual powers correspond, and how does this fit with what Paul said about God's wisdom not being about earthly rulers (1 Cor 2:6-8)?

[Lady Gooner]

The Scriptures do not state in plain and simple language who the Angels are. Nonetheless, we are given a number of facts about their identites, or rather what they are to do, their purpose.


This purpose is explicitly to slay the third part of mankind. Their loosing sends forth an army of two hundred million horsemen (Revelation 9:16-18). We cannot determine whether these horses and riders are supernatural, real armies or marvels of modern technology. But what is clear is that they are deadly and that they fulfill their purpose.

Second, these angels are prepared for a very special time. They are to be released at the very year, month, day, and hour for which they are prepared.

Third, they are bound until the time of the purpose for which they are ordained.

Fourth, they are bound in the great river Euphrates.

Their sole purpose is to kill. This "power of death" (Hebrews 2:14) is the lot of satan. They are bound until they are released for their special purpose. The only other creature bound in the book of Revelation is Satan who is bound in the bottomless pit for a thousand years (Revelation 20:2).

Beyond this, much is speculation, the essential matter is not knowing who the Angels are, it’s knowing who God is. We are told what part God wants us to know at this time. The rest will be revealed in the end! The bottom line is this. Jesus is God and what he said was true. Christ's sacrifice on the cross and His kingdom are the things we must keep in mind when reading any part of scripture as It is he who is the key for understanding them. Remember Christ is all and in all.

[eschaton]

Hi Lady Gooner,

So are you saying we shouldn't try to understand what these things mean?

What about the Bereans who searched the scriptures to find out the truth of the matters (Acts 17:11)? Or what about the admonishion to understand the scriptures (Joh 5:39, 2 Ti 3:15-17), or the call to be skillful in the word (Heb 5:12-13)?

[TyRockwell]

[quote=eschaton;2132836]
Your post raises questions for me.

Do you believe the seals correspond to the life, ministry and resurrection of Jesus, or just the sixth seal. If just the sixth seal, what do the other seals correspond to?

Just the sixth seal corresponds to Jesus, and the Gospel accounts.

All the seals relate to the unsealing, progressively, of the written word of God. The first seal covers the first things God said about and to man in Genesis. This includes the fall into sin, when Adam gave his crown to Satan, the first white horse.

The second seal corresponds to bloodshed, the red horse. God made animal skin clothes for Adam and Eve, and then Cain slew Abel, then violence began to fill the earth.

The third, black horse represents the Flood of Noah, when one-quarter of all mankind that were ever to live on earth died.

The fourth seal, the sickly pale horse, represents the shortened lifespan of mankind after the Flood due to diseases and the change in the environment, and the introduction of meat into man's diet, along with the fear of man, and the predatory nature of men and some animals. Many diseases come from the animal kingdom.

The fifth seal, the souls under the alter, refer to the Old Covenant saints, Their souls were covered, atoned, by the blood of bulls and goats until the perfect sacrifice of Jesus would release them from captivity. This is why they cried out, "How long,...until you avenge our blood" and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the rest of their fellow servants and their brethren who would be killed as they were was completed." Rev, 6:10-11

As I already said, the sixth seal was the written gospels and the seventh were the rest of the New Testament writings.

On what do you base that the church consisted mainly of Jews during the 40 years of silence? The seven churches were in Asia. Should we think they consisted mostly of Jews? Why were the heavens silent during the 40 years of binding? Wouldn't the spiritual powers be silent instead?

It is not that Jews were the main point, but that there was a transition from the old covenant into the new, and most of the first to transition were Jews, completing the fullness of those saved who were ethnicly Jews first, then all who were are saved after the gospel was opened to the gentiles became spiritually Jews.

The seven churches in Asia were not necessarily Jewish, but probably a mix of Jew and gentile, but there is no distinction in the new covenant. The messages to the seven churches in Rev. 2 and 3 are applicable to all churches, even today. Each one has the ability to overcome.

The 'heavens' that were silent for those 40 years were the spirits. They were bound by Jesus' resurrection with ALL power, authority and dominion, in heaven and in earth. After the forty years, you are up to the fifth trumpet, corresponding to 'pastors' and the 'star that fell' refers to the church submitting to a Judaistic priesthood, instead of pastors, during that time, culminating in there being a heirarchy that opened the shaft of the Abyss, allowing high ranking spirits to exercise authority through priests and eventually the government through church/state rule.

I believe you're saying the trumpets represent a kind of historicism, while the seals represent events prior to the writing of Revelation. If that is the case, what about the last 12 chapters in the book, and why does Rev 1:1 say it is about things which must shortly come to pass if they had already past?

The trumpets reflect the roles of Jesus, apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. Each trumpet exists continually in time, but with successive times of emphasis. Jesus is still the first trumpet, apostles were the first to continue Jesus' message, and so on. There are always more teachers than pastors, more pastors than evangelists, more evangelists than prophets, more prophets than apostles, and more apostles, but only one head, Jesus. Together you have an ever-growing mountain that is filling the earth, as in Dan. 2:35b and Heb. 12:22-23.

Revelation is included with the seventh seal. It is the word of God also. There is an overlapping, back and forth layout of Revelation, like in Daniel, with added details to repeated scenes. There are things from Rev. 10 forward that cover John's time, through now, and the future. Therefore, no matter what point in time you are reading Revelation, there is something, 'at hand.' Some things were soon to happen, some were happening, and some were to come. The same is true now. That is why 'soon' can also mean 'suddenly.'


You tie in Babylon, Persia, Greece and Islam. In what way do the spiritual powers correspond, and how does this fit with what Paul said about God's wisdom not being about earthly rulers (1 Cor 2:6-8)?

Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Islam are spirits. The first three were the first three principalities of Daniel 7. In Dan, 7: 12, they had been allowed to live, but their dominion was taken away by Jesus' resurrection with ALL dominion. On this side of Rev. 9:14-15, they are loosed again. With the loosing out of the Euphrates, the religion of the whore of Babylon came out, too. That spirit is really the spirit of all false religion. These spirits are not earthly rulers, but by their nature as principalities they seek to influence and control human governments. Our struggle with them is in the realm of spiritual warfare.

I hope this helps. I'll try to explain more if you have questions.

Ty

[eschaton]

Okay,

Where does it say anything about a Adam giving Satan a crown? A lot of things happened in the garden. I don't know if I would associate blood and violence with clothing of animal skins. It seems like blaming God for man's violence. Did God make war on the animals? A flood is mentioned in Revelation, but it doesn't seem to be related to the third horseman. False prophets, wars, pestilences and catastrophes are often associated with the Olivet discourse (Mat 24:5-7). These seem similar to the horsemen. You haven't mentioned the cherubim, or given connecting scriptures that associate the horsemen with past events in Genesis. Heb 10:4 says it is not possible for the blood of animals to take away sins. Besides, the golden altar was for burning incense, not sacrifices. I think it is too easy to read whatever meaning we want into these things. Maybe you're right, but I would like to see a little more concrete scriptural evidence, and some support from the church fathers would be nice too.

It would also be nice to see some corrobarating scriptures about the 40 years of silence. I don't think those you gave mention silence or 40 years do they?

How do you associate the roles of Jesus, apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers with trumpets?

The church fathers and many people today see Rome represented in Revelation, but you have skipped them. Was Rome not important in your view? Is there no spirit associated with Rome? Did it have nothing to do with control of human government? Like I said, many of the church fathers believed Rome had a lot to do with prophecy.

I'm not trying to be a pain. I just want to test your views objectively. Maybe you're right. Are there any other interpreters that agree with you?

[Lady Gooner]

Hi Lady Gooner,

So are you saying we shouldn't try to understand what these things mean?

What about the Bereans who searched the scriptures to find out the truth of the matters (Acts 17:11)? Or what about the admonishion to understand the scriptures (Joh 5:39, 2 Ti 3:15-17), or the call to be skillful in the word (Heb 5:12-13)?


Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:


I think we need to remember what or at least who the book of Revelation is about. The person of Christ. All too often our eschatological stance determines our interpretation rather than the interpretation dictating the terms of our eschatology and we forget that the bible is not a puzzle waiting to be solved, but infact a disclosure of Jesus.

God says, “Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.” Isaiah 46:9-11

Christians must live with the eschatological tension of already and not yet. The Book of Revelation, is a glimpse of our glorified Saviour. It's the same Jesus we see in the gospels, hear about in the epistles... He still quotes from the OT, and still applies them to Himself.

He says: ''Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am He that liveth , and was dead; and behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death'' Rev 1:17,18.

And ''He that hath the key of David, He that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth'' Rev 3:7.

These quotes from Isaiah, chapter 44:6, ''Thus saith the Lord, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last; and beside Me there is no God.... Fear ye not,''

and from chapter 22:22: ''And the key of the house of David will I lay upon His shoulder; so He shall open, and none shall shut; and He shall shut, and none shall open.''

give us the key, ...the key-- not only of life and death, but also of Scripture-- it is laid upon His shoulder, Christ is the key.

The Bereans you mention were indeed noble Christians who studied to show themselves approved, but this study was not to solve a conundrum, an enigma. No! They were eager to receive the message Paul preached; salvation in Christ, and so they candidly and patiently examined the claims of the gospel. The doctrine of Christ does not fear inquiry.

He "went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and demonstrating that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, 'This Jesus whom I preach to you is the Christ.'" Acts 17:3-4

The study of the Scriptures ultimately shows us that God came to save His people from their sins. If we remember this in our interpretations then we will be prepared for the world to come. Our life will be blessed as we study.

Psa. 1:1-6; Blessed [is] the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2 But his delight [is] in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
4 The ungodly [are] not so: but [are] like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Basically suppositions are superfluous

[TyRockwell]

[quote=eschaton;2133247]
Okay,

Where does it say anything about a Adam giving Satan a crown?

In Rev. 6:2 "I looked, and there before me was a white horse. Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest."
The first seal has to do with God's first words. Jesus, through John is not re-writing the Bible, but showing what happened after God's word was given. The seals are first mentioned in Rev. 5:1. They are on a scroll, sealing God's word. So the word given is the first things God said about and to man. He said, "Let them have dominion..." In Psalm 8:5-6, it is said to God, about man, "You crowned him with glory and honor. You have made him to have dominion over the works of your hands" Notice, God didn't give Adam a crown, He crowned him. Dominion was a part of his nature, the reason he was created. In Rev. 6:2 the rider on the white horse was given a crown, he wasn't crowned. Satan was the rider to whom Adam gave his crown, because the Bible says, "you are a servant to whomever you obey."

A lot of things happened in the garden. I don't know if I would associate blood and violence with clothing of animal skins. It seems like blaming God for man's violence. Did God make war on the animals?

God already knew that He would need to redeem man. That is why it was said of Jesus that, 'He was slain from the foundation of the world.' This is depicted in Rev. 5:6. There, Jesus is shown, 'looking as if he had been slain." So, the principle that, "without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins"had already been established. So, the principle of the blood sacrifice began in the garden of Eden, for even Abel gave such a sacrifice.That God made a sacrifice of animals to clothe them pre-figures the final sacrifice, when, as God said to Satan, Gen. 3:15, "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall crush your head, and you will bruise His heel."The blood of animals does not take away sins, it only 'covered' them. 'Atoned' is what 'covered' means. That is why the souls under the altars used to sacrifice animals in the old testament were only 'covered' by animals blood, and they had to go to sheol when they died, not heaven, for their sins had not yet been taken away. But Jesus' blood took away our sins. God is not blamed for man's violence, it was Satan, whom Jesus said, "He was a murderer from the beginning"God's sacrifice of animals is not war on them. They are His. Their sacrifice was His sacrifice. All creation (animals, too) growns for the manifestation of the sons of God.


A flood is mentioned in Revelation, but it doesn't seem to be related to the third horseman. False prophets, wars, pestilences and catastrophes are often associated with the Olivet discourse (Mat 24:5-7). These seem similar to the horsemen. You haven't mentioned the cherubim, or given connecting scriptures that associate the horsemen with past events in Genesis. Heb 10:4 says it is not possible for the blood of animals to take away sins. Besides, the golden altar was for burning incense, not sacrifices. I think it is too easy to read whatever meaning we want into these things. Maybe you're right, but I would like to see a little more concrete scriptural evidence, and some support from the church fathers would be nice too.

The flood in Rev.12 is a metaphorical flood. The Flood of Noah relates to the third horseman. It is the next huge event after bloodshed and violence began to fill the earth. God used Noah to warn the people to repent. He was a preacher of righteousness. And (a)he preached for 120 years, at least, while building the ark. (b) The 1/4 of all the earth's people who died in the flood associates it to that time. Also (c) You must get the idea that the Revelation of Jesus Christ is the same as saying, 'the revealing of all of the word of God.' Therefore it covers all of God's word, including the references to "before the foundation of the world." John opened his gospel and his first epistle with nearly the same words, that the word was with God from the beginning, and was God.

The Olivet discourse just covers from the apostles' time forward (after the sixth seal) to Jesus' return.

The cherubim in Rev.4 are around the throne of God, where John was taken to see the events starting there, before the foundation of the world. Is that the cherubs you mean?

It would also be nice to see some corrobarating scriptures about the 40 years of silence. I don't think those you gave mention silence or 40 years do they?

Okay. Most scholars agree that the Gregorian calender is about 4 to 6 years off. From that I assume a 6 BC birth of Jesus, his ministry starting at age 30, in 24 AD, and his crucifixion and resurrection in 27 AD. Then the time up to the 66 to 70 AD seige and destruction of Jerusalem would be about 40 to 42 years, generally believed to be one biblical generation, and the time by which all the New Testament was written, completing the seventh seal, except for possibly Revelation.

How do you associate the roles of Jesus, apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers with trumpets?

You know that those 'ascension gifts' were mentioned together in Eph. 4:11, right? Rev. 1:10-12, tells us that Jesus' voice sounded like a trumpet. It was the 1st trumpet mentioned in Revelation. Also, the 1st trumpet mentioned in the Bible is God speaking from Mt. Sinai, in Exodus 19. There are no coincidences in God's word. Jesus is God's word. God speaks, Jesus comes out of his mouth, a trumpet sound comes out of his mouth, therefore Jesus is the 1st trumpet, by two associations, Rev. 1:10-12 and Exodus 19.

Since Jesus "gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers"and they carry his same message of the kingdom, Matthew 24:14, and they all, as we all are disciples, who are to continually make disciples, "teaching them to keep on practicing everything I taught you to do." Matt. 28:19-20, then by association, they are trumpets, too. Same message, same actions as Jesus.

The church fathers and many people today see Rome represented in Revelation, but you have skipped them. Was Rome not important in your view? Is there no spirit associated with Rome? Did it have nothing to do with control of human government? Like I said, many of the church fathers believed Rome had a lot to do with prophecy.

Daniel was still sealed to the early church fathers. They could only speculate, and much could not be figured out until, "the time of the end, many will run to and fro to increase knowledge." Dan.12:4.

Rome is not in Revelation in the way that it has been taught. The other beasts in Revelation 13, Babylon, Persia, and Greece had been allowed to live in Dan. 7:11-12, but Rome's beast, its principality, meaning its spirit, i.e. the 'Prince of Rome' did not survive Jesus' resurrection. The other three principalities were stripped of their authority, but allowed to live. We see them together as one in Rev. 13:2.

The controlling spirits of all human government were stripped of their authority with Jesus' resurrection with all authority. All means ALL.

The only entity that I see as something LIKE Rome would be the eighth king, a human government, in Rev. 17:11.

I'm not trying to be a pain. I just want to test your views objectively. Maybe you're right. Are there any other interpreters that agree with you?\

I don't derive my interpretation from any other interpreters, per se, but some might have a piece that is right, but far more have gotten much of it wrong. Some preachers I've heard are arriving at the right ideas in regard to a believer's authority, and who we are in Christ.

[eschaton]

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:


I think we need to remember what or at least who the book of Revelation is about. The person of Christ. All too often our eschatological stance determines our interpretation rather than the interpretation dictating the terms of our eschatology and we forget that the bible is not a puzzle waiting to be solved, but infact a disclosure of Jesus.

God says, “Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.” Isaiah 46:9-11

Christians must live with the eschatological tension of already and not yet. The Book of Revelation, is a glimpse of our glorified Saviour. It's the same Jesus we see in the gospels, hear about in the epistles... He still quotes from the OT, and still applies them to Himself.

He says: ''Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am He that liveth , and was dead; and behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death'' Rev 1:17,18.

And ''He that hath the key of David, He that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth'' Rev 3:7.

These quotes from Isaiah, chapter 44:6, ''Thus saith the Lord, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last; and beside Me there is no God.... Fear ye not,''

and from chapter 22:22: ''And the key of the house of David will I lay upon His shoulder; so He shall open, and none shall shut; and He shall shut, and none shall open.''

give us the key, ...the key-- not only of life and death, but also of Scripture-- it is laid upon His shoulder, Christ is the key.

The Bereans you mention were indeed noble Christians who studied to show themselves approved, but this study was not to solve a conundrum, an enigma. No! They were eager to receive the message Paul preached; salvation in Christ, and so they candidly and patiently examined the claims of the gospel. The doctrine of Christ does not fear inquiry.

He "went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and demonstrating that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, 'This Jesus whom I preach to you is the Christ.'" Acts 17:3-4

The study of the Scriptures ultimately shows us that God came to save His people from their sins. If we remember this in our interpretations then we will be prepared for the world to come. Our life will be blessed as we study.

Psa. 1:1-6; Blessed [is] the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2 But his delight [is] in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
4 The ungodly [are] not so: but [are] like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Basically suppositions are superfluous


Suppositions are superfluous.
I do believe we should study the scriptures and seek the meat, not just the milk of scripture. His second coming is meat, not milk.

[eschaton]

Just the sixth seal corresponds to Jesus, and the Gospel accounts.

All the seals relate to the unsealing, progressively, of the written word of God. The first seal covers the first things God said about and to man in Genesis. This includes the fall into sin, when Adam gave his crown to Satan, the first white horse.




I'm not satisfied with this overall approach to the seals, and the rest of Revelation hasn't been accounted for. The book is supposed to be the Revelation of Jesus Christ (Rev 1:1). Jesus is the Word of God (John 1:1). Jesus said the scriptures were about Him (John 5:39, Luke 24:44). Jesus and the apostles spoke the hidden wisdom that was ordained from the beginning of the world (Mat 13:35, 1Cor 2:7). To say that just the sixth seal is about the Gospel seems to contradict this. Jesus shouldn't be part of God's Word, but the entirety of it.

You do make some interesting connections though.

As far as the authority of governments goes, I'm still paying my taxes :)

[Lady Gooner]

Suppositions are superfluous.
I do believe we should study the scriptures and seek the meat, not just the milk of scripture. His second coming is meat, not milk.

Hebrews 5:13-14 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Suppositions are not meat, they ensnare us into an intellectual knowledge of theological concepts, believing they're meat.

Check out what Paul teaches about milk in 1 Cor 3.
Likewise Peter in 1 Pet 2
and The writer of Hebrews (most likely Paul) in Heb ch 5 & 6.

Milk is primarily laying Jesus as our foundation, the cornerstone,
If we place Christ at the centre of our faith, at the centre of history etc etc we lay the correct foundation~ our life is Christ centred ~ And having laid the right foundation, Christ, our reading of the Bible automatically centres around him not around our Eschatology or Hamartiology, Soteriology, Ecclesiology, Israelogy.........

That's when we can digest and enjoy the meat :yummy:

Enjoy your supp..... I mean study :smile:

[Zguy28]

Hebrews 5:13-14 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Suppositions are not meat, they ensnare us into an intellectual knowledge of theological concepts, believing they're meat.

Check out what Paul teaches about milk in 1 Cor 3.
Likewise Peter in 1 Pet 2
and The writer of Hebrews (most likely Paul) in Heb ch 5 & 6.

Milk is primarily laying Jesus as our foundation, the cornerstone,
If we place Christ at the centre of our faith, at the centre of history etc etc we lay the correct foundation~ our life is Christ centred ~ And having laid the right foundation, Christ, our reading of the Bible automatically centres around him not around our Eschatology or Hamartiology, Soteriology, Ecclesiology, Israelogy.........

That's when we can digest and enjoy the meat :yummy:

Enjoy your supp..... I mean study :smile:You would have a point, if we were not keeping Christ centered in our lives. But were not, at least I am not (I don't presume to speak for the others). Discussing eschatology and interpreting Revelation does not mean sacrificing our Christology.

In fact, the Word of God is the Word of God. The Revelation of Jesus Christ and its signs is included. In addition, the Second Coming is part of eschatology, should we not study it?

Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And God permitting, we will do so.

Anyway, if you cannot contribute to the topic of discussion, please be on your way. :smile:

[TyRockwell]

[quote=eschaton;2134496]
I'm not satisfied with this overall approach to the seals, and the rest of Revelation hasn't been accounted for.

The topic wasn't the whole book of Revelation. I was setting up the Rev. 9:13-14 sixth trumpet, and the four Euphratean angels, and I had to go through the seals to do so. To go through the whole book of Rev. would take a whole book, which is why I'm writing one. Also, it takes going through Daniel and other references. There are more references in Rev. to other books in the Bible than any other book in the Bible to any another. See my response to your next point. Starting in the sixth seal the trumpets begin and carry through to the 7th, the Last Trumpet, of 1st Cor. 15:52 and Rev. 11:15-18, the return of Jesus, which is also in Rev. 19, so there is an overlapping of the trumpets with the seven bowls of wrath.

The book is supposed to be the Revelation of Jesus Christ (Rev 1:1). Jesus is the Word of God (John 1:1). Jesus said the scriptures were about Him (John 5:39, Luke 24:44). Jesus and the apostles spoke the hidden wisdom that was ordained from the beginning of the world (Mat 13:35, 1Cor 2:7). To say that just the sixth seal is about the Gospel seems to contradict this. Jesus shouldn't be part of God's Word, but the entirety of it.

I've already said that same thing. Jesus is the Word of God. That is why the Revelation covers the whole word of God from before the foundation of the world. All the seals, put together, cover the whole word of God, too. The first five seals cover "from before the foundation of the world," through the old covenant. Then, from the days of John the baptist the kingdom of God was "at hand" and "forcefully advancing" and "forceful men lay hold of it." Jesus said, in Matt. 11:7-15. Therefore the sixth seal overlaps with the closing days of the fifth seal, as John the Baptist was the "greatest prophet of the old covenant, Matt. 11:11, but "he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." Jesus began His ministry with the same message that John preached: "Repent, for the kingdom of God is right here to be laid hold of." After that, the seventh seal covers the rest of the word of God, the new testament. Again, all the word of God is all the seals, and Jesus is all the word of God, which is the meaning of "The Revelation of Jesus Christ." It's the same thing you said, but I did say it, if you'll re-read the post.

Parts of Rev. overlap too. It is not laid out chronologically, but is "many folded" as in "the manifold wisdom of God." Daniel is not chronologically laid out either. It really takes an unsealing of Daniel to properly understand Revelation because, though Revelation was not sealed, Daniel was, and some of the keys to understanding Revelation are in Daniel. In this way, God is emphasizing the point of believing his word, because many mistaken doctrines have arisen due to people trying to figure out Daniel before it was unsealed, (Dan. 12:4) which makes for more misinterpretations, wrong exegesis, of Revelation. Most doctrines of Daniel and Revelation that were developed before Daniel was unsealed need to be drasticly reformed, and much of it thrown out, because Daniel's recent unsealing is essential to seeing the revealing that is in Revelation.

You do make some interesting connections though.

The whole word of God is interconnected, it became 'the word made flesh.'

As far as the authority of governments goes, I'm still paying my taxes :)

That's because we are living in two worlds. The kingdom of (from) heaven, and the physical world, still under the rule of human governments. When Jesus arose with ALL authority in heaven and on earth, it was primarily over evil spirit principalities, powers, ruling spirit powers of the darkness of this age, and spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenlies. (Eph 6:12) Human governments will be subjugated to the spiritual kingdom of heaven in time, once the church becomes mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ and in the unity of the faith, and the knowledge of the Son of God, the knowledge of the word of God. Eph.4:11-16

[eschaton]

I may have missed it, but how has Daniel been recently unsealed in your opinion? Since Christ revealed things hidden since the beginning of the world, what has remained hidden until now?

[eschaton]

Hebrews 5:13-14 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Suppositions are not meat, they ensnare us into an intellectual knowledge of theological concepts, believing they're meat.

Check out what Paul teaches about milk in 1 Cor 3.
Likewise Peter in 1 Pet 2
and The writer of Hebrews (most likely Paul) in Heb ch 5 & 6.

Milk is primarily laying Jesus as our foundation, the cornerstone,
If we place Christ at the centre of our faith, at the centre of history etc etc we lay the correct foundation~ our life is Christ centred ~ And having laid the right foundation, Christ, our reading of the Bible automatically centres around him not around our Eschatology or Hamartiology, Soteriology, Ecclesiology, Israelogy.........

That's when we can digest and enjoy the meat :yummy:

Enjoy your supp..... I mean study :smile:


Did I say suppositions are the meat? Are you saying His second coming is just a supposition?

[TyRockwell]

I may have missed it, but how has Daniel been recently unsealed in your opinion? Since Christ revealed things hidden since the beginning of the world, what has remained hidden until now?
Yes, Daniel was recently unsealed. Look at its sealing in Dan. 12:4.

It was sealed until the time of the end, defined as:
"Many will run to and fro to increase knowledge"

Picture cars passing each other going in opposite directions. Its a busy highway. Add to that the idea of "to increase knowledge," and you come up with: "The Information Superhighway."

I began to see this a few years ago, and have been learning how to explain it, and writing a book to help explain it. Ultimately it will be understood by those who are asking the Holy Spirit to know the truth.

[eschaton]

Yes, Daniel was recently unsealed. Look at its sealing in Dan. 12:4.

It was sealed until the time of the end, defined as:
"Many will run to and fro to increase knowledge"

Picture cars passing each other going in opposite directions. Its a busy highway. Add to that the idea of "to increase knowledge," and you come up with: "The Information Superhighway."

I began to see this a few years ago, and have been learning how to explain it, and writing a book to help explain it. Ultimately it will be understood by those who are asking the Holy Spirit to know the truth.

That's right. I remember you saying that now. Dispys have been saying something like that since I was a kid and before, but not about the internet of course. They point to the increase in scientific and academic knowledge. It's something I pretty much believed myself until recently.

Does running to and fro mean something akin to planes, trains, and automobiles on the internet? Is knowledge about web pages and Utube? I dunno.

I think the knowledge is more about God's wisdom.


Zec 1:9 Then said I, O my lord, what are these? And the angel that talked with me said unto me, I will show thee what these be.
10 And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These are they whom the LORD hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth.
11 And they answered the angel of the LORD that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest.

Eph4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;


It is angels revealing doctrine, but Satanic deception becomes involved. I think that is what Daniel saw. It is the horsemen going throughout the earth.

You mentioned that Revealation was folded. Can you briefly give the overall outline of the book?

[Lady Gooner]

Did I say suppositions are the meat?

I thought you did, If I misunderstood your point I apologise.

Are you saying His second coming is just a supposition?



The problem as I see it is that the Jews did not make a distinction between the first and second coming of Christ. And neither did the Old Testament. So trying to attribute who is who, whether these horses and riders or Angels are supernatural, real armies or marvels of modern technology the answer lies outside what scripture states, and therefore is inadmissable. Which is why I pointed out what scripture actually tells us.

Isaiah 9:6 says, "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

Is this talking of the first coming or the second coming?

We know that the child was born at the time of the first coming. But the government will not be placed on His shoulders until He comes "again". The Bible sees them as part of one event. The two are one. They are the coming of the Messiah in order to set up His kingdom on earth.

From God's vantage point, it is all the last days and the end of the world. The entire Old Testament prophetic message pointed to the coming of the Jewish Messiah. When Jesus came, His coming marked the fulfillment of this long held expectation.

[eschaton]

Lady Gooner,

Are you saying everything was fulfilled in the first century? Maybe so. So has the second coming already occured? When the apostles taught about future things it all occurred in the first century? Even the resurrection? That's not a new idea, but I think it's considered heretical on this forum. It's certainly not what the church fathers taught. Were the apostles such poor teachers that they couldn't explain the nature of prophecy to the early church, or were the early chlristians just incapable of understanding that Bible prophecy was completed in the first century. Is that what you mean?

[TyRockwell]

[quote=eschaton;2135441]That's right. I remember you saying that now. Dispys have been saying something like that since I was a kid and before, but not about the internet of course. They point to the increase in scientific and academic knowledge. It's something I pretty much believed myself until recently.

People always focus on the increase of knowledge in Dan. 12:4, but miss the point, which is the time of the unsealing. The Information Superhighway points to the time that would be within "the time of the end," when Daniel was to be unsealed. It is not so much about the increased knowledge, but about the time of the unsealing. Daniel was being told this by the messenger who began his message in Dan. 10:11. How was Daniel to understand the Internet SuperHiway? He had to be given it in word pictures. It was really given for our time, that we are the ones to whom it is now unsealed.

Does running to and fro mean something akin to planes, trains, and automobiles on the internet? Is knowledge about web pages and Utube? I dunno.

I think the knowledge is more about God's wisdom.

There is also that aspect of the internet that has relevence to God's word. We are using it now. No doubt it is usefull for the church in a number of ways, in knowledge, teaching, communicating with each other, and sharing the good news of the kingdom.


Zec 1:9 Then said I, O my lord, what are these? And the angel that talked with me said unto me, I will show thee what these be.
10 And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These are they whom the LORD hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth.
11 And they answered the angel of the LORD that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest.

Eph4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;


It is angels revealing doctrine, but Satanic deception becomes involved. I think that is what Daniel saw. It is the horsemen going throughout the earth.

There are a few uses of the phrase 'to and fro' in the Bible, not all are to be connected to Daniel 12:4, but in this case, you are right, partly. As I said, the unsealing of Daniel is key to beginning to understand Revelation.

In Zechariah 1:8 there are red horses, speckled and white horses. Notice that there is no black horse. Do you remember what I posted about the first four seals, the four horses and riders? and that they represented what happened as a result, or as a satanic response to the successive unsealings of God's word? The black horse resulted from the conditions brought about by Noah's preaching, which were the Flood and death of one quarter of all to ever live on earth. The preaching of Noah, against violence and bloodshed set up God's instituting human government after the Flood in Gen. 9:6. The black horse situation was past tense to Zechariah though the principle of human government continued. After the initial opposition of Sanballat, it was Zechariah's time to rebuild the temple, a time of "the whole LAND at rest and in peace." In other words, the red horse, white horse and speckled horse conditions, in the world, would not be a hinderance to Zechariah' efforts to get the Jews to keep rebuilding the temple.

The connection is thus: Daniel's unsealing gives us insight into the four horses of Rev. 6. The role of the three colored horses, is only slightly alluded to in Zechariah, but the main point was that God had given the Jews rest on every side for a time, so they could continue work on the temple. It is the message of "rest and peace" that is important to Zechariah, but it would take Daniel's unsealing for us to see the relationship of the horses to Zechariah, and Revelation.

You mentioned that Revealation was folded. Can you briefly give the overall outline of the book?

I'll try to be brief. Jesus told John to "write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now, and what will take place later." What John was to see covers past, present and future.

What was past was what he saw in chapter one. Chapters two and three were the present messages to the seven churches. They are contemporary to John's time.

Rev. 4:1, "After this I looked," and John began to see into the ancient past, "before the foundation of the world," in heaven. These scenes covered the seven seals, all the unsealing, all the writing of God's word, up to Revelation.

This past tense scene continues through Rev.9:12,"The first woe is past; two other woes are yet to come."

But, back up to the seventh seal, opened in Rev. 8:1. The opening of the seventh seal starts the seven trumpets, which were given to the seven angels of the seven churches, representing all churches everywhere through time. All the messages are relevant to all churches through time. All can overcome. We are all more than conquerors. At the same time, we have all of God's word written and continuing now, so there is an overlapping, with the trumpets coming forth, as at the same time we continue to use God's word. The church's messages are the trumpets

So the past tense trumpets continue through the fifth trumpet, relating to "pastors." Jesus and John and others had warned of false teachers, doctrines and false prophets. These things started as early as the Jerusalem church which wanted the gentiles to be circumcised and become jews. So, Judaism was already creeping in to church practice leading to the idea of 'priests' carried over into a church 'hierarchy' with priests as rulers, rather than pastors as shepherds.

The sixth trumpet, relating to "teachers" had already begun to sound in the new testament. They had teachers, but the aspect of teaching in the church was limited until the time when Bibles could be mass-produced in all languages around the world. This condition points to our times, when almost all of the world has had Bible teachers.

Just as there will always be the word of God, all six trumpets have always been around, and will still be part of what the church has and does, up until the seventh, the Last Trumpet, (1st Cor. 15:52) when Jesus returns, we see him and "know even as we are known." 1st Cor. 13:12

But the releasing of the 4 spirits, by the 4 angels at the Euphrates river was future to John. But it has happened now, in our time.
Maybe it is because Bible teaching, and Judeo-Christian culture is causing a bloody response to God's word on the part of the Harlot religion of Babylon, just as we saw with the red horse.

The scene in Rev. 10 was also future to John, but beginning to come to pass now. It is a word picture of the mature church. The terminology of the mighty angel, robed in a cloud, with a rainbow over his head; face like the sun, legs firey pillars...." are descriptive of other Bible accounts of Jesus' appearance. The church is beginning to look like Jesus, do what he did, "and greater things than these." The glorious church has an open bible in its hand and is beginning to exercise dominion in the earth, described as one foot one the sea and the other on the land. We roar like the Lion of the tribe of Judah, like Jesus. What the seven thunders spoke was the only part of Revelation sealed. I suspect we will know what to shout when it is time. In verse seven, "the mystery of God," what Paul called the church is completed. It is almost time for the seventh trumpet!

Chapter 11 is future. The two witnesses are Christians, and also of the Judaic culture!

The Rev. 11:15 Last Trumpet is the return of Jesus, bodily to earth. Look at verse 17 in the NIV. Jesus is "the one who is and who was." There is no 'is to come.'

Chapter 12 is an overview of covenant history. Its is the past, the story of the old covenant woman, Israel, giving birth to Jesus, who will rule all nations with an iron scepter. It is much like Isaiah 9:6-7. The dragon was the Devil. He persecuted Israel first, trying to stop Messiah's coming and his mission. Jesus was snatched up to God's throne. New covenant began. Michael and his angels threw Satan out of heaven because he had lost his ability to accuse us before God. Israel fled to the desert during the 1260 day seige of Jerusalem in 70 AD, barely surviving. The earth, the dispersion, helped the woman. Then Satan went after Christians.

Chapter 13 is back to our time, up through 14:13. The church knows the beast has no authority, and can't get any from him, the dragon. This chapter tells us what Satan wants to do, if we let him.

The 144,000 also represents the mature church

Rev. 14:14 through 16:15 is in our near future.

Rev.16:16 through the end of the book are in our future. The destruction of the kings at the place called Armageddon is not Ezekiel 38-39. Its no big fight, all over with quickly. This part of chapter 16 is happening at the same time as chapter 18.

The bowls of wrath are poured out on the enemies of God's people for how they treat us. We probably even do some of the pouring. Some of this includes what we see in chapters 17 and 18, too. All at the same time.

Chapter 19, Jesus returns. Same time as Rev. 11:15-19. Also same time as Zechariah 14:2-5.

We are just beginning to see the fall of Babylon, the religion of Islam, chapter 18. We should be saying, "Fallen, Fallen is Babylon!" Calling those things that be not as though they were.

Chapter 20 is the literal 1000 year reign of Jesus and believers with him. The revolt at the end of the 1000 years gives the people who lived into that time, or were born in that time the choice to decide whose side they want to be on. Satan loses. He is toast, no, worse. This was a different Gog and Magog event than Ezekiel 38-39, too.

Chapter 21 and 22 are future to the 1000 years, although it is possible that the New Jerusalem came down during the millineum.

I tried to keep it short. Would you like to buy my book?

[eschaton]

Ty,

Revelation is the closing book in the Bible, and the thing to focus on is Jesus Christ. That is the message from the days of creation until the end. The same pattern in the first week and the Garden of Eden is the same that Moses saw on the mountain (Heb 8:5, Exo 25:40). That is the Word of God and tabernacle of the testimony in heaven (Rev 15:5). The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the pattern. The number seven and the tabernacle symbolism are fairly obvious in Revelation and should be taken into account IMO. It is talked about in this thread.


http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=101490


If you presented your ideas to a non-believer, how would you convince him that there is a God and the Bible is His word? Is there anything in your interpretation that would persuade him you are right? Is there an objective test you could give to convince him?

[Lady Gooner]

Lady Gooner,

Are you saying everything was fulfilled in the first century? Maybe so. So has the second coming already occured? When the apostles taught about future things it all occurred in the first century? Even the resurrection? That's not a new idea, but I think it's considered heretical on this forum. It's certainly not what the church fathers taught. Were the apostles such poor teachers that they couldn't explain the nature of prophecy to the early church, or were the early chlristians just incapable of understanding that Bible prophecy was completed in the first century. Is that what you mean?

what I'm saying is CHRIST CRUCIFIED carries much more weight than CHRIST COMING
I Cor 2:2 .

The teaching of the apostles always pointed to the cross. Prophecy always called people back to the Lord, and from what I can see they were pretty successful in that.

The coming to which you are refering to serves to bring finality to his already finished work! Now but not yet.

Jude 1 14-15“Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones, 15 to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

From the above passage we can see that He Judges the Living and the Dead. For that to happen I believe there has to be a bodily resurrection.
The judgment of Christ will bring to light who has believed and lived the gospel and who has not. The Gospels make it clear that the believer has already been judged favourably and so has nothing whatsoever to fear from the general judgment. That is, nothing to fear when he seperates the sheep from the goats. He is our surety and we know that it is all settled.

[TyRockwell]

If you presented your ideas to a non-believer, how would you convince him that there is a God and the Bible is His word? Is there anything in your interpretation that would persuade him you are right? Is there an objective test you could give to convince him?

"The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." Rev. 19:10

Historical fulfillment is an awesome witness to the truth of God and His word! By seeing what he foretold, what he brought to pass, and what is happening now, an unbeliever can easily see that God's word is truth, John 17. That God spoke the end from the beginning, Isaiah 46:8-10.

That things are happening right now, Rev. 13 and Rev. 17, for example, as predicted by Jesus' own testimony in Revelation is enough proof. If they will not believe in these infallible proofs, they won't believe even if someone came back from the dead! These testimonies give additional support to the message of Christ crucified.

What are you not understanding about my posts?

[TyRockwell]

Ty,

Revelation is the closing book in the Bible, and the thing to focus on is Jesus Christ. That is the message from the days of creation until the end. The same pattern in the first week and the Garden of Eden is the same that Moses saw on the mountain (Heb 8:5,Exo 25:40).

Eschaton,
Revelation is more than the closing book in the Bible. Its subject is the entire word of God in persuit of God's eternal purpose, Eph. 3:10-11.

God gave Jesus his role as the Word of God before the foundation of the world, and it is both in Rev.1:1 and Rev. 5:7.

That is the Word of God and tabernacle of the testimony in heaven (Rev 15:5). The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the pattern. The number seven and the tabernacle symbolism are fairly obvious in Revelation and should be taken into account IMO. It is talked about in this thread.


http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...d.php?t=101490

I read your outline, and I don't see a problem between it and the 'folded' past, present and future presentation that I posted. Yours gives a straight line structure to the scenes, while mine moves foreward and backward, following the different times as they are presented.

One aspect of the Bible that gets missed too often is God's eternal purpose, retold in Eph. 3:10-11, but originally put forth in Gen. 1:26-28.

Jesus taught about the kingdom from heaven more than any other subject. Most people only focus on the gospel of Jesus Christ as it relates to salvation, as if the whole goal of God's purpose is eternal life in heaven. The redemption gets us back into kingdom sonship. That's the beginning. When Jesus talked about the kingdom, it was to show how to live in that higher life while on this planet. Earth is our home, not heaven. If we die, we go to heaven. Paul said one time that he had a home there. In the same passage he spoke of being "at home in the body" twice. 2nd Cor. 5:6-9 Then, in the Olivet discourse, Jesus said that the good news of his dominion on earth will be seen in all the earth, then the end would come. Matt.24:14 Heaven is coming down here. Rev. 21:3 God is going to make all things new, not all new things. Rev. 21:5

[eschaton]

If you presented your ideas to a non-believer, how would you convince him that there is a God and the Bible is His word? Is there anything in your interpretation that would persuade him you are right? Is there an objective test you could give to convince him?

"The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." Rev. 19:10

Historical fulfillment is an awesome witness to the truth of God and His word! By seeing what he foretold, what he brought to pass, and what is happening now, an unbeliever can easily see that God's word is truth, John 17. That God spoke the end from the beginning, Isaiah 46:8-10.

That things are happening right now, Rev. 13 and Rev. 17, for example, as predicted by Jesus' own testimony in Revelation is enough proof. If they will not believe in these infallible proofs, they won't believe even if someone came back from the dead! These testimonies give additional support to the message of Christ crucified.

What are you not understanding about my posts?

I don't know of anybody that was converted to Christianity by historical fulfillment, but maybe there are some people. I would be very suprised if you converted an atheist to Christianity by claiming the Bibles prophecies have been fulfilled in history. There is quite a bit of anti-bible literature that ridicules the Bibles prophecies because of lack of historical fulfillment. The thing about this sort of criticism is that it can't be rejected on the grounds of historical data.

Where you'll find historical fulfillment of prophecy is mainly in fundamenatlst literature. History has to be interpreted to match the Bible's prophecies. You have to pick out certain events to match a portion of scripture. Maybe that's the right way to do it, but you won't convince many skeptics that way.

I believe a more convincing argument could be made by showing an allegorical pattern that permeates scripture. A pattern that his been ignored for the most part, but was present from the beginning of scripture, and is present to the end. That's an argument that I suppose is hard to make, but it should be testable to a degree, and it should be presentable as a solution to some hard to answer questions, such as this statement by Jesus.

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

Can you find in the law, the prophets, and Psalms where it says that Christ must suffer, and rise from the dead the third day. I think it should make both things clear in each section of the Bible to verify Christ's words. Christ did say the scriptures were about Him (John 5:39).

Other wisdom literature of the ancient world was interpreted allegorically, such as that of the Greeks and Egyptians. I think it is possible the Bible could be interpreted in a similar way. I don't see a need for it to describe historical or current events in the way it is looked at most of the time.

[TyRockwell]

Can you find in the law, the prophets, and Psalms where it says that Christ must suffer, and rise from the dead the third day. I think it should make both things clear in each section of the Bible to verify Christ's words. Christ did say the scriptures were about Him (John 5:39).

Other wisdom literature of the ancient world was interpreted allegorically, such as that of the Greeks and Egyptians. I think it is possible the Bible could be interpreted in a similar way. I don't see a need for it to describe historical or current events in the way it is looked at most of the time.

Eschaton,
Psalm 22 portrays everything that happened to Christ, on the cross, 1000 years before it happened. That is why Jesus quoted it on the cross.

Isaiah 53 relates what Jesus accomplished by suffering and being 'cut off' for his people.

Daniel 9:26 ""Messiah (Christ) shall be cut off, but not for himself."

Daniel 9:27 says Christ would put an end to sacrifice and offering after 3 and a half years, and that the end of the temple would fulfill the other half of the 70th week.

Zechariah said, "Behold your king is coming to you; he is just and having salvation, lowly and riding on a donkey" (Palm Sunday)

[eschaton]

Another thing I've been wondering is whether the internet could be a fulfillment of scripture. It's not exactly the kind of deeper wisdom the ancients looked for. The telephone, television, radio, automobiles, trains, etc..., have all made a big impact on society. As far as religion is concerened, probably the printing press has made the biggest impact. About 99% of the internet is chatter and fluff. I'm not sure the internet should be seen as a fulfillment of scripture.

[eschaton]

It should in some way indicate the third day when it mentions these things, and it should be found throughout the scriptures as Jesus indicated.


Can you find in the law, the prophets, and Psalms where it says that Christ must suffer, and rise from the dead the third day. I think it should make both things clear in each section of the Bible to verify Christ's words. Christ did say the scriptures were about Him (John 5:39).

Other wisdom literature of the ancient world was interpreted allegorically, such as that of the Greeks and Egyptians. I think it is possible the Bible could be interpreted in a similar way. I don't see a need for it to describe historical or current events in the way it is looked at most of the time.

Eschaton,
Psalm 22 portrays everything that happened to Christ, on the cross, 1000 years before it happened. That is why Jesus quoted it on the cross.

Isaiah 53 relates what Jesus accomplished by suffering and being 'cut off' for his people.

Daniel 9:26 ""Messiah (Christ) shall be cut off, but not for himself."

Daniel 9:27 says Christ would put an end to sacrifice and offering after 3 and a half years, and that the end of the temple would fulfill the other half of the 70th week.

Zechariah said, "Behold your king is coming to you; he is just and having salvation, lowly and riding on a donkey" (Palm Sunday)