Please, please tell me....

[DesertBerean]

...why are the Easter and Passover observances celebrated on sometimes very, very different dates each year?

I've tried Googling but I'm getting a lot of very confusing answers some not at all relevant to the question...

:help:

[Amazing Rando]

...why are the Easter and Passover observances celebrated on sometimes very, very different dates each year?

I've tried Googling but I'm getting a lot of very confusing answers some not at all relevant to the question...

:help:

In the Western church, the celebration of Easter is generally tied directly to the celebration of Passover- because of the biblical reasons typologically and historically connecting the two. Passover is celebrated on the 14th day of the the month called Nissan in the Jewish calendar. Basically the reason the dates vary so widely is because the Jewish calendar is a lunar calendar, based on months of 28 days, which don't correspond to the 30 or 31 day months of the Gregorian calendar which we use.

The Eastern Orthodox use an entirely different system of calculating the date of Easter (which they call Pascha, the Greek word for "passover"), so their celebration of Easter only rarely corresponds with the Western Christian celebration.

[Michelle]

Here's what I understand:

Passover is based on a lunar calendar. It starts on a full moon, the 14th day of Nissan.

Easter is also based on a lunar event, however it also is based on a solar event; the vernal equinox, plus it always falls on a Sunday. It is on the first Sunday, after the first full moon, after the vernal equinox.

Sometimes the first full moon after the vernal equinox is on the 14th of Nissan so Passover and Easter happen during the same week. Sometimes not.

[mossrose]

All I know is that Easter is really early in 2008. Like, the 22nd of March, or thereabouts.

(Don't have a calendar in front of me, so don't know the exact day....)

[TCapp]

The 24th.

I think one year out of my 30 has it been on my birthday. At least, that I can remember.

[mossrose]

It's never been on my birthday.

:frown:

[TCapp]

Guess you need a new birth date then. March 25? Sounds like a good day to have a birthday to me. :smile:

[Timothy Leary]

...why are the Easter and Passover observances celebrated on sometimes very, very different dates each year?

I've tried Googling but I'm getting a lot of very confusing answers some not at all relevant to the question...

:help:

The normal dates for Passover are based on the Hillel II calender, not the Gregorian one.

[mossrose]

Guess you need a new birth date then. March 25? Sounds like a good day to have a birthday to me. :smile:
MelMak's birthday is the 20th. That was my uncle's birthday.

My grandfather's birthday was the 25th. He never forgave me for giving to birth to MelMak on his son's birthday instead of his.

My husband tells me that my birthday is the "Devil's birthday".

:nsm:

[DesertBerean]

I remember one year Easter came on the first Sunday of April. Easter Sunday is normally a very active day for my church - we have a sunrise service, late morning service, and baptism in the afternoon. It so happens we have our monthly communion on the first Sunday of the month. And, as you may recall, the first Sunday in April was usually the day we go on Daylight Savings. *Ugh*

That was a very busy Sunday - we still didn't know what time it was when the day was over.

Kinda like how I feel about Easter :hehe: Thanks for the replies - I didn't know the spring equinox was part of the equation.

[DesertBerean]

So...the dates vary so much each year because of the differences between the 28 days of the Jewish calender and the 30/31 days of the Gregorian, and the Gregorian has to adjust Easter for the spring equinox as well.

Have I got that right?

[Michelle]

yes

[Johnny MacManky]

It's also widely considered that the different days given for the crucifixion between the Synoptics and John were because one went by a solar calendar and the other by the lunar (can't remember offhand which was which).

[mossrose]

The spring equinox is, however, generally around the same time every year. It is always March 20-21 or so. Never in April.

[Tanakh Keeper]

...why are the Easter and Passover observances celebrated on sometimes very, very different dates each year?

I've tried Googling but I'm getting a lot of very confusing answers some not at all relevant to the question...


Why should they be the same? They are two completely different holidays from two completely different religions. You might as well ask why the US Thanksgiving and the Canadian Remembrance Day are on two different days.

[Michelle]

The spring equinox is, however, generally around the same time every year. It is always March 20-21 or so. Never in April.True, but if a full moon occurs just before the vernal equinox, the next full moon will be in April.

[mossrose]

Why should they be the same? They are two completely different holidays from two completely different religions. You might as well ask why the US Thanksgiving and the Canadian Remembrance Day are on two different days.
The crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus occured during the Passover season.

Jesus was a Jew in His human form, you know. And observed the holy days.

[Tanakh Keeper]

The crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus occured during the Passover season.

Ah...I see the problem. Then the difference in our two calendars is the answer. The Jewish calendar is based on the moon and the Gregorian calendar is based on the sun. Pesach is on the 15th of Nissan.

http://www.jewfaq.org/holidayg.htm
The Jewish calendar has a different number of days than the calendar you use because the Jewish calendar is tied to the moon's cycles instead of the sun's. The Jewish calendar loses about 11 days relative to the solar calendar every year, but makes up for it by adding a month every two or three years. As a result, the holidays don't always fall on the same day, but they always fall within the same month or two.

[The Curtmudgeon]

But only if it's raining in Constantinople, or a camel in Damascus can distinguish between a white thread and a black thread before 5 am while carrying a heavy load through a narrow gate.

Seriously, it's dead easy to tell what the dates are for the Passover and Easter: Buy a calendar at the local Hallmark's, and look it up.

The (:shrug:) Curtmudgeon

[Tanakh Keeper]

Seriously, it's dead easy to tell what the dates are for the Passover and Easter: Buy a calendar at the local Hallmark's, and look it up.

And does Hallmark get the info from on high?

[Timothy Leary]

And does Hallmark get the info from on high?
The grossly incorrect Hillel II calender sure doesn't

[Tanakh Keeper]

The grossly incorrect Hillel II calender sure doesn't

:lmbo:

We have a minor holiday coming up and I need to plan. Tell me, oh wise one, which day does Hanukah fall on this year? We need to alert Hallmark about your correction.

[DesertBerean]

Seriously, it's dead easy to tell what the dates are for the Passover and Easter: Buy a calendar at the local Hallmark's, and look it up.

The (:shrug:) Curtmudgeon But this inquiring mind wanted to know...

why? :wink:

And all your answers have been so helpful.

[The Curtmudgeon]

Well, if you're going to be that way about it, DB....

One thing that I think causes the difference is that the Mosaic Law laid down a specific month and day for Passover ("In the first month, ... on the fourteenth day of the month..."), but the Gospel accounts of the Resurrection focus more on the day of the week ("On the first day of the week..."). Therefore, much of the early Church tended to keep the annual celebration on a Sunday, rather than commemorating a specific day of the month. Eventually, this became the norm for most branches of early Christianity (although not all). But then it became a problem to decide which Sunday, and so the invention of the rather contrived formula which is actually used to calculate Easter -- and the fact that more than one such contrived formulae were adopted, and thus led to arguments and controversy.

So the divergence can be traced (although I don't claim this is the sole reason for the difference) to the difference in the way the initial descriptions were written -- the Jewish Passover on a specific day of a specific month, and the Christian Easter on "the first day of the week."

The (is that better, DB? :teeth:) Curtmudgeon

[DesertBerean]

No doubt the historicity of Resurrection being on the first day of the week along with the timing of the Passover and the vernal equinox and all that were factors.

Much better answers than what I got from Google.

[One Bad Pig]

The 24th.

I think one year out of my 30 has it been on my birthday. At least, that I can remember.
My cousin was born late on Easter Sunday (around 11:30 pm, IIRC).

[One Bad Pig]

In the Western church, the celebration of Easter is generally tied directly to the celebration of Passover- because of the biblical reasons typologically and historically connecting the two. Passover is celebrated on the 14th day of the the month called Nissan in the Jewish calendar. Basically the reason the dates vary so widely is because the Jewish calendar is a lunar calendar, based on months of 28 days, which don't correspond to the 30 or 31 day months of the Gregorian calendar which we use.

The Eastern Orthodox use an entirely different system of calculating the date of Easter (which they call Pascha, the Greek word for "passover"), so their celebration of Easter only rarely corresponds with the Western Christian celebration.
The Western church uses the Gregorian calendar. The Eastern church uses the Julian calendar, since the Gregorian calendar was drawn up by a Western monk. Those are about 15 days apart by now, IIRC.

[Tanakh Keeper]

Another interesting point is that both the Jewish and the Christian calendars make periodic adjustments, so that our holidays always occur during the same seasons. I've heard that the Muslim calendar makes no corrections. So their holidays like Ramadan can occur during different seasons from year to year.

[barryrob]

...why are the Easter and Passover observances celebrated on sometimes very, very different dates each year?

I've tried Googling but I'm getting a lot of very confusing answers some not at all relevant to the question...

:help:


The Passover walls falls on the 1st full moon after the Spring equnoix, Nisan 14th according to the Jewish calander.

Easter is pagan and not for Christians to be involved in:-

"Easter /´i:st•/ spring feast of the Christian church, commemorating the Resurrection of Jesus. It is a moveable feast, falling on the first Sunday following the full moon after the vernal equinox (21 March), that is, between 22 March and 25 April.
The English name derives from Eoster, Anglo-Saxon goddess of spring, who was honored in April.
Dyed easter eggs, and pieces of candy shaped like eggs, young chickens, ducklings, lambs or rabbits - all symbolizing new life - are given to young children."-Webster's Concise Interactive Encyclopaedia

[One Bad Pig]

...why are the Easter and Passover observances celebrated on sometimes very, very different dates each year?

I've tried Googling but I'm getting a lot of very confusing answers some not at all relevant to the question...
:help:

The Passover walls falls on the 1st full moon after the Spring equnoix, Nisan 14th according to the Jewish calander.

Easter is pagan and not for Christians to be involved in:-

"Easter /´i:st•/ spring feast of the Christian church, commemorating the Resurrection of Jesus. It is a moveable feast, falling on the first Sunday following the full moon after the vernal equinox (21 March), that is, between 22 March and 25 April.
The English name derives from Eoster, Anglo-Saxon goddess of spring, who was honored in April.
Dyed easter eggs, and pieces of candy shaped like eggs, young chickens, ducklings, lambs or rabbits - all symbolizing new life - are given to young children."-Webster's Concise Interactive Encyclopaedia
barryrob, do you even read at the stuff you copy and paste in? Why should a Christian not be involved in the "spring feast of the Christian church, commemorating the Resurrection of Jesus."? For once, would you please think about the line of crap the Watchtower feeds you? :argh:

[DesertBerean]

I'm aware of the pagan origin of the word Easter, barryrob. Did you know the seven days of the week were named after Nordic gods? (Think they were Nordic). Shall we change them as well?

Anyway this is really more about the reasons we have such divergent dates for Easter and Passover since Jesus was crucified and resurrected at the same time as the great Passover observance.

[One Bad Pig]

I'm aware of the pagan origin of the word Easter, barryrob. Did you know the seven days of the week were named after Nordic gods? (Think they were Nordic). Shall we change them as well?

Anyway this is really more about the reasons we have such divergent dates for Easter and Passover since Jesus was crucified and resurrected at the same time as the great Passover observance.
Some were, exceptions being Sunday (after the sun), Monday (after the moon) and Saturday (after Saturn).

[DesertBerean]

Oh, okay. Some of the seven days of the week then...and Saturday, since it was named after a god too. :hehe:

[Tanakh Keeper]

Anyway this is really more about the reasons we have such divergent dates for Easter and Passover since Jesus was crucified and resurrected at the same time as the great Passover observance.

Then the horse has been beaten well. If you use the Christian calendar, you'd assign a mid-April date to that event. If you use the Jewish calendar, then you'd go for mid-Nisan.

All the "divergent-ness" depends on each person's perspective.
A Christian has the same date for Easter while Passover moves all over their calendar.
A Jew has the same date for Passover while Easter moves all over their calendar.

[One Bad Pig]

Then the horse has been beaten well. If you use the Christian calendar, you'd assign a mid-April date to that event. If you use the Jewish calendar, then you'd go for mid-Nisan.

All the "divergent-ness" depends on each person's perspective.
A Christian has the same date for Easter while Passover moves all over their calendar.
A Jew has the same date for Passover while Easter moves all over their calendar.
Actually, Easter moves all over our calendar (anywhere from March 22 to late April sometime), depending on where the full moon falls in relation to the vernal equinox.

[Tanakh Keeper]

Actually, Easter moves all over our calendar (anywhere from March 22 to late April sometime), depending on where the full moon falls in relation to the vernal equinox.

You know, I actually find this very funny. This thread was started by someone wondering why Passover moves all around the Christian calendar, but you say that Easter moves too. :lol:
It seems that the only holiday with a fixed date is Pesach on the Jewish calendar.

[DesertBerean]

Uh, no....I was asking about both, I thought. why are the Easter and Passover observances celebrated on sometimes very, very different dates each year?

[Sparko]

You know, I actually find this very funny. This thread was started by someone wondering why Passover moves all around the Christian calendar, but you say that Easter moves too. :lol:
It seems that the only holiday with a fixed date is Pesach on the Jewish calendar.

um. the reason easter moves IS because passover moves. Jesus was killed on passover and rose three days later.


and Pesach IS Passover. its just that the jewish calendar is lunar based so it moves around in regards with the Gregorian calendar which is solar based.

[DesertBerean]

:doh: Of course...I see what Tanakh Keeper meant...when I began this thread I didn't really know it was just the Gregorian calander and all the other stuff that changed the date of Easter around; I was assuming it was a matter of BOTH calendars changing around.

[Tanakh Keeper]

:thumb::doh: Of course...I see what Tanakh Keeper meant...when I began this thread I didn't really know it was just the Gregorian calander and all the other stuff that changed the date of Easter around; I was assuming it was a matter of BOTH calendars changing around.

:thumb:

[Jezz]

Ah...I see the problem. Then the difference in our two calendars is the answer. The Jewish calendar is based on the moon and the Gregorian calendar is based on the sun.
No, this is not the cause of the difference. The Gregorian Calendar has two cycles - one of them based on the sun, and the other based on the moon. The lunar cycle is essentially the Jewish calendar. The reason Easter "moves" is because it is based on the lunar cycle, not the solar one.

The reason the Gregorian calendar's lunar cycle is different to the Jewish calendar is, I think, because the Jews changed the way they calculate their years long after the schism between Christianity and Judaism (though I'm not familiar with how).

Pesach is on the 15th of Nissan.
Pesach is on the 14th of Nisan (and because the day begins at sundown in Jewish reckoning, it means at sundown on the night before). It is not on the 15th (nor is it on a brand of car...).

15th of Nisan is the start of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

5 The LORD's Passover begins at twilight on the fourteenth day of the first month. 6 On the fifteenth day of that month the LORD's Feast of Unleavened Bread begins; for seven days you must eat bread made without yeast.

[Timothy Leary]

:lmbo:

We have a minor holiday coming up and I need to plan. Tell me, oh wise one, which day does Hanukah fall on this year? We need to alert Hallmark about your correction.

Chanukah wasn't originally its own, seperate, holiday. It was originally celebrated during Sukkot.

[Jezz]

Hmm.... some of this is close, but not quite there.

In the Western church, the celebration of Easter is generally tied directly to the celebration of Passover- because of the biblical reasons typologically and historically connecting the two. Passover is celebrated on the 14th day of the the month called Nissan in the Jewish calendar.
True in theory, but the Jews changed their calendar so what modern Jews now reckon as the 14th of Nisan is not the same as what Christians reckon as the 14th of Nisan.

Basically the reason the dates vary so widely is because the Jewish calendar is a lunar calendar, based on months of 28 days, which don't correspond to the 30 or 31 day months of the Gregorian calendar which we use.
Pretty much correct - except the number of days in a lunar month can vary between 29 and 30 - it's not 28 exactly.

The Eastern Orthodox use an entirely different system of calculating the date of Easter (which they call Pascha, the Greek word for "passover"), so their celebration of Easter only rarely corresponds with the Western Christian celebration.
This isn't true. The basic method for both of them is: "The first Sunday after the first full moon after the Spring equinox - reckoned as the 21st of March". The reason our dates end up a little different are:

1. The biggest difference is that we still use the original Julian calendar for reckoning the date of the Spring equinox. The 21st of March in the Julian calendar is 3rd of April in the Gregorian calendar - so what we reckon as the Spring equinox is actually the 3rd of April in the civil calendar. That is why when Easter is early in the West (and by "early" I mean "before April 3" - as it is this year), it is typically late for the Orthodox (27th of April this year) - because we have to wait for the next full moon. But when it is late for the West (after 3rd of April) it is about the same for us (because we're going by the same full moon).

2. A less significant (but still important) difference is that we still follow the decree at the Council of Nicea, which states that the Christian Pascha must always be observed on the first Sunday after the Jewish Pascha. Where this makes a difference is when the 14th of Nisan (ie, Jewish Pascha) happens to fall on a Sunday - in that case, the Western reckoning would have Easter on that Sunday, whereas we would celebrate Pascha on the following Sunday.

The fact that the Gregorian calendar does not preserve this second point is one of the reasons that the Orthodox didn't adopt it.

There are some other minor differences to do with the usage of pre-calculated "Paschal cycles", which are also different between East and West - but the principle behind these pre-calculated cycles is still the same.

[Jezz]

The Western church uses the Gregorian calendar. The Eastern church uses the Julian calendar, since the Gregorian calendar was drawn up by a Western monk. Those are about 15 days apart by now, IIRC.
Not quite correct.

The Orthodox did not adopt the Gregorian calendar partly for the reasons that you stated (ie, that it was done by the papacy), but there were other good reasons as well. One of these reasons was that they changed the way that Easter was calculated so that it was no longer in accordance with the decree of Nicea. Another was that the Gregorian calendar was also known to be inaccurate and would need correcting at some point in the future anyway. For these reasons, rather than adopt the Gregorian, they decided to come up with a new calendar which was even more accurate. This calendar is known as the "revised Julian calendar". At the moment, it is the same as the Gregorian calendar, but the two will begin to diverge at some point in the future (IIRC, in about 300 years' time - although the practice of using "leap seconds" for UTC might eliminate this).

Most Orthodox Churches now use the revised Julian calendar for the fixed feasts (ie, Christmas) - the ones that are on the same date every year. There are some who (primarily for pastoral reasons) haven't changed to the new calendar yet - for example, at the time it was adopted, the Russian and Serbian churches were having problems with Uniatism (the RCC proselytising to their faithful) and they thought that adopting what seemed to be an RCC calendar would confuse the issue to much. The Church in Jerusalem didn't adopt it either, because then they would have to fight with the RCC for access to the holy sites on the feast days. But pretty much all the rest of the adopted it.

But to complicate things, all Orthodox Churches still use the original (uncorrected) Julian calendar for the movable feasts (ie, Pascha and those dated relative to Pascha, like Pentecost) - which as I pointed out in my response to Rando results in different days for Pascha. This calendar is now 13 days (not 15) behind the Gregorian and the revised Julian calendars - so the Russians celebrate Christmas on the 7th of January in our calendar (which is the 25th of December in the Julian calendar).

[One Bad Pig]

Thanks for the corrections, Jezz. I've never even heard of the revised Julian calendar. How does it differ from the Gregorian?

[Jezz]

Thanks for the corrections, Jezz.
You're welcome.

I've never even heard of the revised Julian calendar.
Most people haven't. Most people think we are simply on the same calendar as the Westerners. For practical purposes, this is true at the moment - but the difference will become apparent in the year 2800. Provided something else doesn't change between now and then... :smile:

How does it differ from the Gregorian?
The only real difference between the Julian, Gregorian (itself a revision of the Julian) and the revised Julian calendars is the way that leap years are calculated.

The original Julian calendar was very simple: every fourth year was a leap year.

In the Gregorian calendar:

It is a leap year if the year is divisible by 4...
...unless the year is divisible by 100, when it's not a leap year...
...unless the year is divisible by 400, when it is a leap year.

Thus:

2008 is a leap year because it is divisible by 4.
1900, although divisible by 4, is also divisible by 100 and hence was not a leap year. Likewise for 2100.
2000, however, although divisible by 100, is also divisible by 400, and hence it was a leap year. Likewise for 2400.

In contrast, the Revised Julian calendar has the following rule for calculating leap years:

It is a leap year if the year is divisible by 4...
...unless the year is divisible by 100, when it's not a leap year...
...unless the year leaves a remainder of 200 or 600 when divided by 900, in which case it is a leap year.

Thus: 2008 is a leap year because it is divisible by 4.
2100, although divisible by 4, is also divisible by 100 and hence will not be a leap year.
2000, although divisible by 100, leaves a remainder of 200 when divided by 900, and hence it was a leap year. Similarly, 2400 leaves a remainder of 600 when divided by 900, and hence it will be a leap year.

So you see that all of these leap-years are also leap years in the Gregorian calendar. The first divergence between the Gregorian and the revised Julian calendars arises in 2800 - which in the Gregorian calendar will be a leap year (because it is divisible by 400), but in the revised Julian calendar will not be (because the remainder when divided by 900 is not 200 or 600). The next century-year leap year in the revised Julian calendar after 2400 will be in 2900, not 2800.

In terms of accuracy:

The mean length of the tropical year is 365.24219 days.

The original Julian calendar had an average year length of 365.25 days - which is 11 minutes, 14.784 seconds longer than the mean tropical year. This means that after about 128 years, you get a day behind wrt the solar year.

The Gregorian calendar has an average year length of 365.2425 days - which is about 26.784 seconds longer than the mean tropical year. Which means after about 3,226 years, you get a day behind wrt the solar year.

The revised Julian calendar has an average year length difference between 365.242222 days - which is about 2.6 seconds longer than the mean tropical year. Which means that in theory after about 31,035 years, you get a day behind wrt the solar year.

So as you can see, the revised Julian is the most accurate. Indeed, for all practical purposes this calendar is perfect, because it matches the measured length of the tropical year to the limit of precision of that measurement. It is practically impossible to have a more accurate calendar.

Something interesting that I forgot to point out in an earlier post, too: the Gregorian calendar was not uniformly adopted at the time it was proclaimed. Many Protestant countries were reluctant to adopt it for some of the same reasons that the Orthodox countries were.

For more information, check out the Wikipedia:

Gregorian calendar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_calendar)
Revised Julian Calendar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revised_Julian_calendar)

[DesertBerean]

Wow ask a complicated question.... :hehe:

Interesting info, Jezz.

[The Curtmudgeon]

Something interesting that I forgot to point out in an earlier post, too: the Gregorian calendar was not uniformly adopted at the time it was proclaimed. Many Protestant countries were reluctant to adopt it for some of the same reasons that the Orthodox countries were.

You run into this if you study English and/or American History -- f'rinstance, we (used to) celebrate Washington's Birthday on 22 February, but he was actually born on 11 February OS or Old Style, where "Old Style" refers to the Julain calendar still in use in Britain (and its colonies) until 1753, when the Gregorian Calendar (aka NS or New Style calendar) was finally adopted (one might say "accepted"). When the Catholic countries had accepted Gregory's reformed calendar, they had to drop 10 days to get in sync with it; when Britain accepted it a century or so later, they had to drop 11 days, thus shifting Washington's birthday accordingly.

(And yes, there were people at the time who complained that the government was stealing 11 days from them. :ahem:)

Other countries accepted the calendar at other times; both Turkey and the USSR, e.g., didn't adopt it until the 20th century (the Bolshevik "October" Revolution happened on 7 November as far as the already-Gregorian parts of the world were concerned, 13 days off from the traditional Russian date of 25 October).

It makes reading historical archives interesting at times.

The (may you live in interesting times) Curtmudgeon