So this is why Huckleberry is surging

[Philosophickle]

STUDENT: Recent polls show you surging... What do you attribute this surge to?

HUCKABEE: There's only one explanation for it, and it's not a human one. It's the same power that helped a little boy with two fish and five loaves feed a crowd of five thousand people. (Applause) That's the only way that our campaign can be doing what it's doing. And I'm not being facetious nor am I trying to be trite. There literally are thousands of people across this country who are praying that a little will become much, and it has. And it defies all explanation, it has confounded the pundits. And I'm enjoying every minute of them trying to figure it out, and until they look at it, from a, just experience beyond human, they'll never figure it out. And it's probably just as well. That's honestly why it's happening.

Source (http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/post/?q=Y2Y0NzM1ZGNhYzQyZjAxZjhiODllMTgyMzIyZjAzOGY=)

[Darth Executor]

It's because of Chuck Norris. Seriously.

[Timothy Leary]

It's because Romney & Gulliani are not worth voting for.

[Amazing Rando]

It'll be interesting to hear Huckabee's theological reflections on God's presence in his campaign should he lose the election.

[Philosophickle]

It'll be interesting to hear Huckabee's theological reflections on God's presence in his campaign should he lose the election.

Certainly God wouldn't want a crossdresser or a Mormon to win...

[historic salve]

It's because Romney & Gulliani are not worth voting for.
John McCain is. :thumb: Most principled and experienced candidate I know. In fact, he has the most foreign policy experience among all the Republicans because the rest of the front runner Republicans have been governors.

[Timothy Leary]

John McCain is. :thumb: Most principled and experienced candidate I know. In fact, he has the most foreign policy experience among all the Republicans because the rest of the front runner Republicans have been governors.
Not only that, he actually knows how to run a war, understands that torture is WRONG - himself being a victim of torture when he was a POW for seven years, and - unlike Gulliani and Romney - has vowed to stop arresting our sick and dying members of society who use marijuana as a last resort because of their medical conditions.

I might not like the McCain-Feingold law, but I can overlook this blemish....

[historic salve]

Not only that, he actually knows how to run a war, understands that torture is WRONG - himself being a victim of torture when he was a POW for seven years, and - unlike Gulliani and Romney - has vowed to stop arresting our sick and dying members of society who use marijuana as a last resort because of their medical conditions.

I might not like the McCain-Feingold law, but I can overlook this blemish....
Why not? It helped curb unlimited soft money donations to presidential candidates... I view it as a big accomplishment, especially since Congressmen rarely pass laws that hurt themselves.

[Timothy Leary]

Why not? It helped curb unlimited soft money donations to presidential candidates... I view it as a big accomplishment, especially since Congressmen rarely pass laws that hurt themselves.
and it also violated our first ammendment rights

besides, i think we should be able to give more of our money towards campaigns if we should so chose to do so... if we didn't have so stupid restrictions on how we can use our money already. Consider this: If our current laws had been in place when Ross Perot created the short-lived Reform Party, he'd have been convicted as a criminal!

[Yankee_Doodle]

John McCain is. :thumb: Most principled and experienced candidate I know. In fact, he has the most foreign policy experience among all the Republicans because the rest of the front runner Republicans have been governors.

It is a phenomena of old age. I saw a documentary on McCain about a year ago & he was involved in the Savings and Loan scandal of the 80's (he was part of a group called the Keating 5 or something like that). He's another patsy for the machine.

[Yankee_Doodle]

STUDENT: Recent polls show you surging... What do you attribute this surge to?

HUCKABEE: There's only one explanation for it, and it's not a human one. It's the same power that helped a little boy with two fish and five loaves feed a crowd of five thousand people. (Applause) That's the only way that our campaign can be doing what it's doing. And I'm not being facetious nor am I trying to be trite. There literally are thousands of people across this country who are praying that a little will become much, and it has. And it defies all explanation, it has confounded the pundits. And I'm enjoying every minute of them trying to figure it out, and until they look at it, from a, just experience beyond human, they'll never figure it out. And it's probably just as well. That's honestly why it's happening.

Source (http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/post/?q=Y2Y0NzM1ZGNhYzQyZjAxZjhiODllMTgyMzIyZjAzOGY=)

I'm not sure God can be credited with his success (though of course I have no magical insight here). IMO Hucklebee will lose -- he's too much of a simpleton to win any big states.

[historic salve]

and it also violated our first ammendment rights

besides, i think we should be able to give more of our money towards campaigns if we should so chose to do so... if we didn't have so stupid restrictions on how we can use our money already. Consider this: If our current laws had been in place when Ross Perot created the short-lived Reform Party, he'd have been convicted as a criminal!
The question is: who would choose to do so? Obviously the wealthy or interest groups that want to support/buy a pet candidate. That leads to corruption, and the SCOTUS has already ruled on the Constitutionality of the McCain-Feingold bill...

[historic salve]

It is a phenomena of old age. I saw a documentary on McCain about a year ago & he was involved in the Savings and Loan scandal of the 80's (he was part of a group called the Keating 5 or something like that). He's another patsy for the machine.
I've heard of the scandal, but I'm not familiar with it. Of course I don't approve of money laundering or anything else - but I think that if you dig deeply enough, you'll find that every candidate was at least inadvertantly involved in some kind of scandal.

[Yankee_Doodle]

and it also violated our first ammendment rights

besides, i think we should be able to give more of our money towards campaigns if we should so chose to do so... if we didn't have so stupid restrictions on how we can use our money already. Consider this: If our current laws had been in place when Ross Perot created the short-lived Reform Party, he'd have been convicted as a criminal!

isn't Romney infusing tons of his own money into his campaign? So why would Perot's reform party (which still exists) violate law?

[Timothy Leary]

The question is: who would choose to do so? Obviously the wealthy or interest groups that want to support/buy a pet candidate. That leads to corruption, and the SCOTUS has already ruled on the Constitutionality of the McCain-Feingold bill...

The only thing these sort of laws do is protect the incumbents

[historic salve]

The only thing these sort of laws do is protect the incumbents
:huh: I don't see the connection.

[Philosophickle]

Here is the video of what Huckleberry said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSQNSlUUoOc&eurl=http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/

And since when did the little boy feed the five thousand?
And Huckster pretty much lost any chance he had with me. I absolutely hate a candidate invoking their faith the woo the masses; as if Christ would be happy about the political paths candidates take. What an idiot.

[Jackie Fox]

Here is a bit of a little song on the subject by Calvin Trillin from The Nation, sung to the tune of "O Tannenbaum":

Mike Huckabee, Mike Huckabee,
Your numbers just keep soaring.
Mike Huckabee, Mike Huckabee,
It's Romney you are goring,
Though Mitt is rich and Mitt is slick,
He's wondering, "Who is this hick?"
Mike Huckabee, Mitt fails to see
That rich and slick is boring.

[Weboh2]

I can't help but notice how many people believe McCain-Feingold wasn't an incumbant protection act. They should have decapped individual contributions; but instead they limited free political speech.

[Jackie Fox]

I can't help but notice how many people believe McCain-Feingold wasn't an incumbant protection act.

Naivete is hardly unique to that particular scenaio. Some are surprised politicians have affairs.

[Whipartist]

Here is the video of what Huckleberry said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSQNSlUUoOc&eurl=http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/

And since when did the little boy feed the five thousand?
And Huckster pretty much lost any chance he had with me. I absolutely hate a candidate invoking their faith the woo the masses; as if Christ would be happy about the political paths candidates take. What an idiot.

You're right, it's plain sickening!! Already he's foolishing calling down the power of God upon his campaign. Can I vomit now?

What has me really stumped and disillusioned is why the "religious right" the "moral majority" and the "values voters" aren't backing Ron Paul with everything they've got??!!? Why are they so ignorantly pushing Hucky? Huck said himself that he'd support any other Republican candidate except for Ron Paul.... Think about it, if Hucky is so "pro-life" and so "anti-homosexual" agenda, then why on earth would he choose to back the likes of the cross dressing Guliani ahead of Doctor Paul? There's even talk that he might be willing to run as Guliani's running mate. It's clear from the abuse Paul gets from all sides on a continual basis, that he's the only candidate that's not sold his soul to global elites. He's ridiculed and yet seems to avoid returning insults and instead sticks with the facts. Hucky and every other Republican seems to think that it's America's job to use war to police the rest of the world! Meanwhile our national debt has doubled as a result of Bush's war on terror and we've got the rest of the world more pissed off at us than ever before. It's a disaster and I can't believe after all this time that people haven't awakened and seen what's happening. Jesus said you shall know them by their fruits. Bush has abandoned Christianity and sold our liberties to the highest bidder. Frankly I'm scared.

I vote for life and I vote for peace.

This is my Psalm for the campaign.

In my distress I cried unto the LORD, and he heard me. Deliver my soul, O LORD, from lying lips, [and] from a deceitful tongue. What shall be given unto thee? or what shall be done unto thee, thou false tongue? Sharp arrows of the mighty, with coals of juniper. Woe is me, that I sojourn in Mesech, that I dwell in the tents of Kedar! My soul hath long dwelt with him that hateth peace. I am for peace: but when I speak, they are for war.

[historic salve]

It's clear from the abuse Paul gets from all sides on a continual basis, that he's the only candidate that's not sold his soul to global elites.
This thread is about Huckabee, not Ron Paul. And frankly, I think most of us don't give a crap about rumors that Huckabee will run as Giuliani's running mate.

Hucky and every other Republican seems to think that it's America's job to use war to police the rest of the world!
Yeah right. That's why Huckabee called Bush's foreign policy an example of "arrogant bunker mentality" and he's gotten some flak over it from fellow Republicans.

[Whipartist]

This thread is about Huckabee, not Ron Paul. And frankly, I think most of us don't give a crap about rumors that Huckabee will run as Giuliani's running mate.

Sorry to offend you. I'll start another thread if I have the time.

Yeah right. That's why Huckabee called Bush's foreign policy an example of "arrogant bunker mentality" and he's gotten some flak over it from fellow Republicans.

I agree with him but what he said was an understatement. From what I've heard from him he does hold to the view represented in the statement I made that you were replying to. He wants to increase the military budget significantly if that's not a telltale sign. And his domestic policy is very "Nanny like."

He has said we're involved in a world war. And he's said that he doesn't want to pull the troops home until we can "leave with honor." That's Politician talk for, "we're going to be there a long time and I have no intention of leaving until the very end."

When lives are being lost, "honor" seems like a pretty sorry reason to stick around. The whole basis for the war is absent. Ron Paul is getting more financial support from the military than any other GOP candidate in either party. I wonder what the reason is? Maybe because they're being treated like pawns in a discussion about whether their hearts might still be beating next year. I think these issues are very critical.

You don't seem to be interested but here's an exchange between Paul and Huckabee about this very issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9sA5FQfE1E&feature=related

[historic salve]

And he's said that he doesn't want to pull the troops home until we can "leave with honor." That's Politician talk for, "we're going to be there a long time and I have no intention of leaving until the very end."
If that's indeed Huckabee's view, then he's wrong. Gen. Petraeus himself has said that we can't continue the war indefinitely. At the same time, he must believe that the surge is capable of creating a climate for political change; as a military man himself, he wouldn't risk American lives for an impossible goal.

What Paul doesn't seem to understand and will probably never understand is that supporters of the war aren't ignoring the costs. We realize that American lives are being lost in the war and that a lot of money is being poured into the war. But we think (at least at this point in time) that the consequences of withdrawal would be worse: namely, that Americans and Iraqis who have died in the war would have died in vain, that a destabilized Iraq would cause trouble in the Middle East, and that there would be ethnic genocide among Iraq's sectarian groups. I find that this is a standard argument in favor of the war, but it's a good one when you put it into context. The whole situation, at least from Iraq's point of view, is ten times worse than it was in Vietnam. Vietnam ended with less bloodshed than it might have because the North Vietnamese were always intent on uniting the country. That was Ho Chi Minh's stated goal from the beginning, to create one Vietnam. But there's no such pretense among insurgents in Iraq. They do not want political peace. They want to drive out the infidel and to silence their enemies, including fellow Iraqis. The way of the suicide bomber is chaos. They profit off of chaos because then there is no legal authority to hunt them down. They feed off of chaos in the same way that ticks suck the lifeblood out of an animal.

The bottom line is that right now, we are in limbo. We don't know whether the surge will create the temporary peace necessary for Iraqi politicians to introduce reforms. But violence in Iraq has sharply decreased in recent months, this is our last chance to find out if the surge will work. If no reforms have been made within the next couple of years, then we will have the moral obligation to pull out to keep Americans from spilling their blood in vain. By that time, we'll know that the situation will end badly, surge or not. But until then, we can't let this last chance for peace slip by us. Not when we know that more people will die without an American presence in Iraq.

[Lightknight]

I bet his surge is due to his appearances on Steven Colbert.

[maudman]

Huck is surging because his religion is Baptist.

And most if not all baptist are Christian Zionist. At least from most Echatological teaching in their Churches especially in his Home State.

Who Controls the media?

IN other words they Believe the Jews are Gods Chosen People.

Why become Christian? if all we need to be is a Jew to be Gods Chosen.

John Paul made comments against Israel (Not favorable) and the Problems that we are now in because we are being sucked into middle east turmoil not only for Oil but Israel. The Blow Back speach.

Thats why Huck leens toward the others rather than John Paul.

If its huck then we better to get ready to Duck. Surely people won't be that stupid.

[Lightknight]

Ewww, you forced a rhyme. I feel icky now...

[Whipartist]

If that's indeed Huckabee's view, then he's wrong. Gen. Petraeus himself has said that we can't continue the war indefinitely. At the same time, he must believe that the surge is capable of creating a climate for political change; as a military man himself, he wouldn't risk American lives for an impossible goal.

What Paul doesn't seem to understand and will probably never understand is that supporters of the war aren't ignoring the costs. We realize that American lives are being lost in the war and that a lot of money is being poured into the war. But we think (at least at this point in time) that the consequences of withdrawal would be worse: namely, that Americans and Iraqis who have died in the war would have died in vain, that a destabilized Iraq would cause trouble in the Middle East, and that there would be ethnic genocide among Iraq's sectarian groups. I find that this is a standard argument in favor of the war, but it's a good one when you put it into context. The whole situation, at least from Iraq's point of view, is ten times worse than it was in Vietnam. Vietnam ended with less bloodshed than it might have because the North Vietnamese were always intent on uniting the country. That was Ho Chi Minh's stated goal from the beginning, to create one Vietnam. But there's no such pretense among insurgents in Iraq. They do not want political peace. They want to drive out the infidel and to silence their enemies, including fellow Iraqis. The way of the suicide bomber is chaos. They profit off of chaos because then there is no legal authority to hunt them down. They feed off of chaos in the same way that ticks suck the lifeblood out of an animal.

The bottom line is that right now, we are in limbo. We don't know whether the surge will create the temporary peace necessary for Iraqi politicians to introduce reforms. But violence in Iraq has sharply decreased in recent months, this is our last chance to find out if the surge will work. If no reforms have been made within the next couple of years, then we will have the moral obligation to pull out to keep Americans from spilling their blood in vain. By that time, we'll know that the situation will end badly, surge or not. But until then, we can't let this last chance for peace slip by us. Not when we know that more people will die without an American presence in Iraq.

I understand what you're saying. Indeed the situation is complex. But I think this is a hopeful but false dilemma. In several years the war will be beyond Iraq into Iran and who knows where else. There is no chance for peace!! It's a pipe dream.

It is admitted by many that the war was a ridiculous mistake. The consequences of this mistake are that we are stuck. We are stuck in a mess that can't be cleaned up, not by the surge and not by anything short of World War III. And World War would be a much much bigger mess!! It could not clean up anything because war is not a constructive force. This whole thing is escalating every day, all over the globe. it's not going down, and it won't go down, ever. Ideas like radical fundamentalist Islam can't be defeated with bullets and bombs! They can only be fought with counter ideas. The bombs of the Jihadists can only be defused with love and with the gospel. And we have to remeber that there are no perfect solutions to problems this side of Christ's return. We should be idealists in our morality but not in our hope of world peace. Terrorists are a reality we must live with, just like other criminals.

Yes we are a big nation with a big military and we do seem to be winning locally in the short term. But infact all we've done is left a mess that we can't clean up and nobody else will either. It's a mess that is burned into the minds of hoards of Jihadist's all over the world. We've confirmed every suspiciion they have ever had about us one million fold. We've legitimized and fueld their hate. It's bad, it's ugly, it's partly our fault, and our continued involvement will make it worse nomatter what our motives are. Don't play with black widows and you won't get bit. There will never be a good opportunity to back out of this thing. How can you not realize that? It's permanent until someone stops it outright, even at great cost and makes an apology. When you do something wrong, you apologize, back off and don't do it again. That's the sad but real truth of the matter, nomatter what wrong thing you have done. By boldly going ahead with wrong inorder to find an opportunity to back out in honor, you're hoping for the impossible. Sin doesn't work that way for anybody or any nation.

Have our troops ultimately died in vain? I think the answer to that depends on what the war is about, not about how it concludes. Nobody in the Alamo died in vain though they lost the battle. But those who died in Hitler's military did die in vain because they died defending something that was wrong. The success or failure of a ridiculous mission is unrelated to the question. We were the invaders in Iraq, they didn't invade us, we invaded them.

If we back out of Iraq, ever, until the end of the world, or until WWII has completely destroyed the face of the earth, then Iraq will become an unstablized place of bloodshed. Not that it isn't that already.... We must stay there forever or face that the region will be unstable. This part of the world has been bloody for a long time and it intends to stay that way, with or without us. We have to ask ourselves whether it is really the USA's job to be the police for the rest of the smaller countries in the world? If so, then there are other places in the world that urgently need our attention as much and more than Iraq does!

That's why it's obvious to me that it's our reputation that's on the line here, not our concern for innocent Iraqi victims. US military officials have not released a count of Iraqi civillian casualties during Iraqi Freedom, however most estimates are between 15,000 and 20,000 civilian casualities! That makes 9-11 look small. When did these folks sign up for the war and ask for their freedom to be fought for by our troops? We've invaded another country that can't begin to find order through all the mess. We should have known better, I suspect we did, but we went ahead anyway. Now the only thing that can be done to display some virtue and honor to the rest of the world would be if we pulled out of Iraq in as quick and responsible a manner as can be done. When you do something wrong, there are no happy endings, just the admission of guilt and hope for forgiveness and a brighter future. This war has been a joke for a long time. It's an impossible battle and unless we want to destroy our nation and plunge the world into WWIII, we must back out. Otherwise we've signed up for WWIII because we don't want to loose face and leave one country destabilized which we should have never invaded to begin with. People are going to die over there, either way.

[maudman]

Ewww, you forced a rhyme. I feel icky now...

Need some lye soap.

[Timothy Leary]

Naivete is hardly unique to that particular scenaio. Some are surprised politicians have affairs.

Jackie, were you by chance libertarian before you turned liberal?

[Jackie Fox]

Jackie, were you by chance libertarian before you turned liberal?

No. Your point?

[Thomas More]

Honestly I think it is because no one has really broadcast he is a creationist. As much as I like the fact he shots at reporters with a shotgun and supports the fair tax, I don't like the fact he thinks the Flintstones is a documentary.

[JonLanceBarker]

Honestly I think it is because no one has really broadcast he is a creationist. As much as I like the fact he shots at reporters with a shotgun and supports the fair tax, I don't like the fact he thinks the Flintstones is a documentary.

you sure about that one? :eh:

[Thomas More]

you sure about that one? :eh:

Yes I am. (http://news.google.com/news?client=opera&rls=en&q=huckabee+creationist&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&um=1&sa=N&tab=wn) I really don't want to watch Inherit the Wind play out in Washington.

[JonLanceBarker]

Yes I am. (http://news.google.com/news?client=opera&rls=en&q=huckabee+creationist&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&um=1&sa=N&tab=wn) I really don't want to watch Inherit the Wind play out in Washington.

sorry, when i see "creationist" i think YEC, and so far the Huck has shown little or no signs of being YECist.
i don't really think you have to worry much...better an ID than a YEC, IMO.

[Jackie Fox]

sorry, when i see "creationist" i think YEC, and so far the Huck has shown little or no signs of being YECist.
i don't really think you have to worry much...better an ID than a YEC, IMO.

Anybody who supports any form of "creationism" despite the schisms among that sect's adherents would be a poor choice for office beyond Alderman and even then if I knew someone was one I'd not vote for them and so would many others.

[Thomas More]

sorry, when i see "creationist" i think YEC, and so far the Huck has shown little or no signs of being YECist.
i don't really think you have to worry much...better an ID than a YEC, IMO.

Changing the name on a can of beer does not change the fact it is still beer. ID is the in the same vein of thinking as YEC, or OEC.

[JonLanceBarker]

Changing the name on a can of beer does not change the fact it is still beer. ID is the in the same vein of thinking as YEC, or OEC.

but ID and OEC are BETTER beers than YEC!!!!! :ale:

(TE's still the best, though.)

[Meta Knight]

Yes I am. (http://news.google.com/news?client=opera&rls=en&q=huckabee+creationist&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&um=1&sa=N&tab=wn) I really don't want to watch Inherit the Wind play out in Washington.
Inherit the Wind didn't even play out in real life. Why are you worried it'll play out in Washington?

[3kixintehead]

STUDENT: Recent polls show you surging... What do you attribute this surge to?

HUCKABEE: There's only one explanation for it, and it's not a human one. It's the same power that helped a little boy with two fish and five loaves feed a crowd of five thousand people. (Applause) That's the only way that our campaign can be doing what it's doing. And I'm not being facetious nor am I trying to be trite. There literally are thousands of people across this country who are praying that a little will become much, and it has. And it defies all explanation, it has confounded the pundits. And I'm enjoying every minute of them trying to figure it out, and until they look at it, from a, just experience beyond human, they'll never figure it out. And it's probably just as well. That's honestly why it's happening.

Source (http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/post/?q=Y2Y0NzM1ZGNhYzQyZjAxZjhiODllMTgyMzIyZjAzOGY=)

HAH! He basically just said that God has chosen him to run fro President. I didn't know he was so full of it. That really disgusts me. It certainly reinforces my decision not to vote for him.

[Ryokan]

Not only that, he actually knows how to run a war, understands that torture is WRONG - himself being a victim of torture when he was a POW for seven years, and - unlike Gulliani and Romney - has vowed to stop arresting our sick and dying members of society who use marijuana as a last resort because of their medical conditions.

I might not like the McCain-Feingold law, but I can overlook this blemish....

A -reakin-men. John McCain all the way.

[Jaltus]

I have no respect for John McCain. We had a family friend who was in the same POW camp, and McCain flat out deserted them. Once my friend escaped, he actually went back and helped free the rest of the prisoners. Where was McCain? Raking in corporate millions already and ignoring his alleged fellow soldiers.

If he has integrity, then the word itself has no meaning.

[Ryokan]

I have no respect for John McCain. We had a family friend who was in the same POW camp, and McCain flat out deserted them. Once my friend escaped, he actually went back and helped free the rest of the prisoners. Where was McCain? Raking in corporate millions already and ignoring his alleged fellow soldiers.

If he has integrity, then the word itself has no meaning.

So if you are not John Rambo you are a traitor? That seems very unfair to me. Most of the POW in the camp with McCain, even his political opponents, seem to have stood up for his honor in that situation.
Aside from which my understanding is McCain came home and was broke. His "corporate millions" are his second wife's. For good or ill, McCain has been stunningly unsuccessful at personally making money.

[Jaltus]

So if you are not John Rambo you are a traitor? That seems very unfair to me. Most of the POW in the camp with McCain, even his political opponents, seem to have stood up for his honor in that situation.
Aside from which my understanding is McCain came home and was broke. His "corporate millions" are his second wife's. For good or ill, McCain has been stunningly unsuccessful at personally making money.

The difference is that McCain claims to have done "all he can" yet he never exerted any political pressure to help those left behind (not Left Behind, hehe). Sorry, but I just do not buy it. The officer gets out and leaves all the grunts behind and then does NOTHING for them? Not getting my vote.

[Ryokan]

The difference is that McCain claims to have done "all he can" yet he never exerted any political pressure to help those left behind (not Left Behind, hehe). When? Right after he got out he and continued to serve with the Navy for several years, and then become the Navy's Senate liason. He stayed in Vietnam for 5 years, even though as the son of an Admiral he could have left much earlier. To suggest he took the easy officer way out is either just dumb Jaltus, and everyone here knows you aren't dumb. McCainwas not elected to public office until 1982. At that point, unless you buy into the cruel con so many people played on MIA families in the eighties to seperate them from their money, there were no living POWs in Vietnam. There was nothing he could do.Sorry, but I just do not buy it. The officer gets out and leaves all the grunts behind and then does NOTHING for them? Not getting my vote.
I'm sorry, but I don't by it. A man voluntarily stayed in Vietnam for years longer than he had to to support his men, who has one of longest records of supporting "grunts" in Congress. Your friend may disagree with McCain on the MIA issue, but this is a matter of factual belief on the issue, not John McCain abandoning the grunts.

[Jackie Fox]

When? Right after he got out he and continued to serve with the Navy for several years, and then become the Navy's Senate liason. He stayed in Vietnam for 5 years, even though as the son of an Admiral he could have left much earlier. To suggest he took the easy officer way out is either just dumb Jaltus, and everyone here knows you aren't dumb. McCainwas not elected to public office until 1982. At that point, unless you buy into the cruel con so many people played on MIA families in the eighties to seperate them from their money, there were no living POWs in Vietnam. There was nothing he could do.
I'm sorry, but I don't by it. A man voluntarily stayed in Vietnam for years longer than he had to to support his men, who has one of longest records of supporting "grunts" in Congress. Your friend may disagree with McCain on the MIA issue, but this is a matter of factual belief on the issue, not John McCain abandoning the grunts.

McCain's father was CINCPAC (the navy Admiral in Charge of Pacific forces) at the time he became a POW. The Viet Minh attempted to trade him for people they wanted but it was a no go. They found out that for us, the son of a high official was no more valuable than any others (not completely but...).

As Senator Mac and Kerry and their staffs researched the POW issue exhaustively. Their report stated the unaccounted for were never listed as POWs and did not appear to have ever been so and could not be found. I believe the report is as accurate as could be. Those unaccounted for include those whose deaths were unknown, deserters, and those who otherwise if still alive do not want to be found.

POW families are holding onto hope their loved ones can be found but it's not going to happen. Any charges of malfeasance on the issue by either Americans or Vietnamese are purely speculative and without any merit.

[JonLanceBarker]

McCain's father was CINCPAC (the navy Admiral in Charge of Pacific forces) at the time he became a POW. The Viet Minh attempted to trade him for people they wanted but it was a no go. They found out that for us, the son of a high official was no more valuable than any others (not completely but...).

As Senator Mac and Kerry and their staffs researched the POW issue exhaustively. Their report stated the unaccounted for were never listed as POWs and did not appear to have ever been so and could not be found. I believe the report is as accurate as could be. Those unaccounted for include those whose deaths were unknown, deserters, and those who otherwise if still alive do not want to be found.

POW families are holding onto hope their loved ones can be found but it's not going to happen. Any charges of malfeasance on the issue by either Americans or Vietnamese are purely speculative and without any merit.

Miss Fox...you have received pearls for this well-thought-out post. :thumb:

[Ryokan]

Well, I think what Jaltus has to recognize is there is honest disagreement on this issue, and that McCain does not agree with his friends assessment, assuming that is his friends beef with McCain, does not mean he abandoned these guys. I am sure that, assuming they were there and McCain knew he'd do everything in his power to get them back.

I understand this is an emotional issue for alot of people. And McCain's involvement in the '91-'92 commission is usually what makes POW/MIA activists convinced there are still guys in SE Asia angry at him, but if McCain is a traitor over this so is John Kerry, Medal of Honor Winner Bob Kerrey, Bob Dole, and a host of others. The trouble is there jsut isn't a whole lot of evidence for it.
What is your feeling on this issue Jaltus?

[Zeluvia]

I've heard of the scandal, but I'm not familiar with it. Of course I don't approve of money laundering or anything else - but I think that if you dig deeply enough, you'll find that every candidate was at least inadvertantly involved in some kind of scandal.


http://www.wmsa.net/People/john_mccain/ariz-republic_chap_V_1999.htm

Here is an article that lays out the scandal, and McCain's involvement.

You should become familar with it. It is an example of deregulation, profiteering, and corporate welfare, and government bail outs that is oddly being echoed again with the sub prime mortgage "crisis".

And there is a Bush involved.

[Jaltus]

My feeling is that McCain KNEW about a specific camp and did nothing about it. The friend of my family escaped YEARS after McCain, and he took everyone else with him.

He went to find out what happened to McCain's promises about coming back after them, and he found nothing.

[Ryokan]

My feeling is that McCain KNEW about a specific camp and did nothing about it. The friend of my family escaped YEARS after McCain, and he took everyone else with him.

He went to find out what happened to McCain's promises about coming back after them, and he found nothing.

What's his name? What was the camp? Where is the record of this? I am not trying to pry, but I think these are fair questions.

[Jimmy Higgins]

I have no respect for John McCain. We had a family friend who was in the same POW camp, and McCain flat out deserted them. Once my friend escaped, he actually went back and helped free the rest of the prisoners. Where was McCain? Raking in corporate millions already and ignoring his alleged fellow soldiers.

If he has integrity, then the word itself has no meaning.You know, I'd need a timeline and lots of specifics to even take this claim seriously.

[Sparko]

You know, I'd need a timeline and lots of specifics to even take this claim seriously.

I don't think Jaltus was trying to convince you or anyone else. He was stating why he would not vote for McCain. All that matters is that he believes his friend.

I am not voting for McCain for a lot of reasons. I think he is a democrat in republican's clothing for one. He also seems like he would be a weak president.

[Ryokan]

You both are free to do what you want. :shrug: I think you are jsut wrong and I don't understand at all how Jaltus came to his conclusions.

[Sparko]

You both are free to do what you want. :shrug: I think you are jsut wrong and I don't understand at all how Jaltus came to his conclusions.

well I dont want to speak for Jaltus but apparently he believes his friend and that is how he came to his conclusion.

I am purely judging McCain by his actions and statements over the last few years in the news. That's pretty much all I know about him. Just like the other candidates.

I don't really like ANY of them this time around. I might end up voting for whom I dislike the least.

[Jimmy Higgins]

I don't think Jaltus was trying to convince you or anyone else. He was stating why he would not vote for McCain. All that matters is that he believes his friend.If you make a charge like Jaltus did, you should be willing to give a bunch of details or keep the mouth shut.

I am not voting for McCain for a lot of reasons. I think he is a democrat in republican's clothing for one. He also seems like he would be a weak president.A Democrat in Republican's clothing? If you say so.

[Jackie Fox]

Miss Fox...you have received pearls for this well-thought-out post. :thumb:

Thanks, it's based on things I learned from my mentor at JAG.