Tribalism

[Ratnat]

I would love to have a discussion on studies surrounding tribalism. There are a couple of threads in other forums which touch on the subject...one on witches in Africa and another on natural societies but do not focus on tribalism per se.

Many anthropologists now believe humans are naturally tribal and even in large modern society we still tend to form "tribes" in a sense. This "tribal mentality" is also found among many primates as well as other species.

I will leave it here for now to see if there is any interest in discussing further.

[FreezBee]

I would love to have a discussion on studies surrounding tribalism. There are a couple of threads in other forums which touch on the subject...one on witches in Africa and another on natural societies but do not focus on tribalism per se.

Many anthropologists now believe humans are naturally tribal and even in large modern society we still tend to form "tribes" in a sense. This "tribal mentality" is also found among many primates as well as other species.

I will leave it here for now to see if there is any interest in discussing further.

Good topic :thumb:

It indeed does look as if we humans tend to form tribes: atheists, theists; creationists, evolutionists. In particular fans of football clubs appear to have every bit of tribal characteristic.


- FreezBee

[Ratnat]

Good topic :thumb:

It indeed does look as if we humans tend to form tribes: atheists, theists; creationists, evolutionists. In particular fans of football clubs appear to have every bit of tribal characteristic.


- FreezBee

I knew you would stop by.:wink:

I think that tribal mentality is also the main reason for sectarianism within religions as well.

The implications do not bode well for future global peace.lol

[FreezBee]

I knew you would stop by.:wink:

I think that tribal mentality is also the main reason for sectarianism within religions as well.

If that is tribalism :smile:


The implications do not bode well for future global peace.lol

No it doesn't, and that may be a really serious problem. I mean, Muslims are required by the Qur'an to spread Islam, and Christians are required by the Bible to spread Christianity, but we can't all be both (by definition), so a recipe for a WW III?


- FreezBee

[Ratnat]

If that is tribalism :smile:



No it doesn't, and that may be a really serious problem. I mean, Muslims are required by the Qur'an to spread Islam, and Christians are required by the Bible to spread Christianity, but we can't all be both (by definition), so a recipe for a WW III?


- FreezBee

Well that is why sectarianism may be a good thing...

[Paintbucket]

Well, people like to associate with one another from similar backgrounds. Tribal religions have many differences from the religions of today. In a sense, I admire the tribal religions and their simplicity much more than the institutions of religion today. I don't think that we're all going to die though soon. I think we'll make it. Surely we'll figure out a way to make it work.

[Ratnat]

Well, people like to associate with one another from similar backgrounds. Tribal religions have many differences from the religions of today. In a sense, I admire the tribal religions and their simplicity much more than the institutions of religion today. I don't think that we're all going to die though soon. I think we'll make it. Surely we'll figure out a way to make it work.

By definition, wouldn't all religions be tribal if humans are tribal?

What do you think is the difference between religions of today and tribal religions, specifically?

[Nicholas]

By definition, wouldn't all religions be tribal if humans are tribal?

What do you think is the difference between religions of today and tribal religions, specifically?

I think he's referring to indigineous religions. Just some input here, it's a common misconception that indigenous religions are somehow more simple than modern religions. I'd suggest looking about the island of Bali, for centuries they have used a system of temples and shrines to allocate water to the certain fields at a certain time. At one point westerners convinced them to abandon the system, everything collapsed because everyone was trying to grow their fields at the same time and grow as much as possible. They went back to the traditional way and everything returned to normal. It is really quite fascinating, I'll try to start a thread in here on it when I get a chance (it's finals week...)

[FreezBee]

Well that is why sectarianism may be a good thing...

You mean ... as in keeping to our own?

[FreezBee]

I think he's referring to indigineous religions. Just some input here, it's a common misconception that indigenous religions are somehow more simple than modern religions. I'd suggest looking about the island of Bali, for centuries they have used a system of temples and shrines to allocate water to the certain fields at a certain time. At one point westerners convinced them to abandon the system, everything collapsed because everyone was trying to grow their fields at the same time and grow as much as possible. They went back to the traditional way and everything returned to normal. It is really quite fascinating, I'll try to start a thread in here on it when I get a chance (it's finals week...)

Yes, indigenous religions should not be underestimated.

[Paintbucket]

To an extent Rat, that's probably true. I'm not underestimating tribal religions either, some are pretty complex.

The religions of today are very institutional. Basically, tribal religions are very simple, with simple views on God and the sort. This link is better than I can do at explaining it.

http://faculty.smcm.edu/ccraney/restricted/PDF/Religious_Evolution.pdf

[Ratnat]

I think he's referring to indigineous religions. Just some input here, it's a common misconception that indigenous religions are somehow more simple than modern religions. I'd suggest looking about the island of Bali, for centuries they have used a system of temples and shrines to allocate water to the certain fields at a certain time. At one point westerners convinced them to abandon the system, everything collapsed because everyone was trying to grow their fields at the same time and grow as much as possible. They went back to the traditional way and everything returned to normal. It is really quite fascinating, I'll try to start a thread in here on it when I get a chance (it's finals week...)

I think the term tribal is going to cause confusion...

The anthropological term has no connection to any particular tribe or set of customs but is meant as far as organization and mindset. As I noted, tribalism occurs among primates and other species as a social construct.

All religions were once indigineous. I agree with your comments on common misconceptions.

I look forward to your thread on the particulars in Bali.

[Nicholas]

I think the term tribal is going to cause confusion...

The anthropological term has no connection to any particular tribe or set of customs but is meant as far as organization and mindset. As I noted, tribalism occurs among primates and other species as a social construct.

All religions were once indigineous. I agree with your comments on common misconceptions.

I look forward to your thread on the particulars in Bali.

I was also trying to prevent any confusion, I'm trying to make good use of my anthropology minor right here.

I'll get to the thread when I have a chance, maybe later today.

[Ratnat]

You mean ... as in keeping to our own?

No.

I mean the way groups tend to divide into smaller groups when then become large.

[FreezBee]

No.

I mean the way groups tend to divide into smaller groups when then become large.

Because there's a limit to tribe size?

(And thanks for your clarification :thumb:)

[Ratnat]

Because there's a limit to tribe size?

(And thanks for your clarification :thumb:)


Some anthros put the number at around 150 or at least used to. Dunbar's number.lol

Here is an overview with a link to books with further info if you are interested.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number

[FreezBee]

Some anthros put the number at around 150 or at least used to. Dunbar's number.lol

Here is an overview with a link to books with further info if you are interested.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number

Thanks for the link. It's really interesting :thumb:

[shunyadragon]

If that is tribalism :smile:

Very likely, there is a concept of what may be called a social sense of community at different levels, such as the family, community, tribe and nation. There is natural tendency for things to divide along various lines of differences as cultural units grow in size.




No it doesn't, and that may be a really serious problem. I mean, Muslims are required by the Qur'an to spread Islam, and Christians are required by the Bible to spread Christianity, but we can't all be both (by definition), so a recipe for a WW III?


- FreezBee

There is the Baha'i alternative.

[FreezBee]

There is the Baha'i alternative.

Except that the Baha'i ar persecuted by Muslims :smile:

[shunyadragon]

Except that the Baha'i ar persecuted by Muslims :smile:

the problem is the world views that are at war, and not whether one is persecuted or not. the Baha'is have basically resolved the conflict that the Jews, Christians and Muslims have been fighting over for millennia.

Whether true or not, the Baha'i world view offers a reasonable resolution to tribal conflict that has escalated to religious conflicts to national conflict to international conflict. We will not be chucking spears in WWIII.

One interesting note is many of the divisions in Christianity follow many ancient tribal lines.

[shunyadragon]

Some anthros put the number at around 150 or at least used to. Dunbar's number.lol

Here is an overview with a link to books with further info if you are interested.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number


Dunbar's number more closely relates to size of the basic community with in a tribe. 150 represents a mean community size that functions well above about 200 results in divisions into separate communities. Below a certain number communities do not function well.

[Zeluvia]

Someone should take Dunbar's number and look at on line gaming guilds, because I think the 150 number would correlate well there too.

Guilds tend to break when they get too large, and recombine. But it requires a core number to splt off to form the newer guild, the newer guild may or may not make it, depending on the quality of the leadership and membership.

I think on line games are a rich source of anthropological and sociological study, especially the long running MMOs.

What is a gaming guild but a virtual tribe?

[FreezBee]

Someone should take Dunbar's number and look at on line gaming guilds, because I think the 150 number would correlate well there too.

Guilds tend to break when they get too large, and recombine. But it requires a core number to splt off to form the newer guild, the newer guild may or may not make it, depending on the quality of the leadership and membership.

I think on line games are a rich source of anthropological and sociological study, especially the long running MMOs.

What is a gaming guild but a virtual tribe?

Good points, Zeluvia :thumb:

MMORPGs may well be some of the best places for studying tribal behavior, since they are relatively new, and therefore the rules are less cut in stone than in the 'real' world.


- FreezBee

[FreezBee]

the problem is the world views that are at war, and not whether one is persecuted or not. the Baha'is have basically resolved the conflict that the Jews, Christians and Muslims have been fighting over for millennia.

Whether true or not, the Baha'i world view offers a reasonable resolution to tribal conflict that has escalated to religious conflicts to national conflict to international conflict. We will not be chucking spears in WWIII.

Back in my high school days, I considered becoming a Baha'i for those reasons, but that's a long time ago :smile:


One interesting note is many of the divisions in Christianity follow many ancient tribal lines.

They do?


- FreezBee

[Zeluvia]

I was thinking that one of the most of interesting things about on line "tribalism" is that it forms and breaks without regard to physical cues.

In the real world, people tend to identify with people that Look like them...

The gaming world removes the physical communication from the process, and it becomes a pure personality interaction.

[Ratnat]

Good points, Zeluvia :thumb:

MMORPGs may well be some of the best places for studying tribal behavior, since they are relatively new, and therefore the rules are less cut in stone than in the 'real' world.


- FreezBee


For all we know, TWEB may be just an experiment in tribal dynamics and we are all mere guinea pigs.

:teeth:

[FreezBee]

For all we know, TWEB may be just an experiment in tribal dynamics and we are all mere guinea pigs.

:teeth:

Or gerbils?

[shunyadragon]

Back in my high school days, I considered becoming a Baha'i for those reasons, but that's a long time ago :smile:

To be enlightened is to become a child agian.




They do?

Yes, the core of the Tribal allegiances that made up Rome remained the core of the Roman Church from Spain, Southern France to Italy to Romania, the Germanic tribes and the Celts formed the various Protestant churches. The Eastern Church separated and later divided along old tribal regions into the various orthodox churches. The Jews remained faithful to their tribal allegiances. The African branches of early Christianity remained faithful to their tribal allegiances.




- FreezBee[/quote]

[FreezBee]

To be enlightened is to become a child agian.

Yes, but to become a child again is not necessarily to become enlightened.


Yes, the core of the Tribal allegiances that made up Rome remained the core of the Roman Church from Spain, Southern France to Italy to Romania, the Germanic tribes and the Celts formed the various Protestant churches. The Eastern Church separated and later divided along old tribal regions into the various orthodox churches. The Jews remained faithful to their tribal allegiances. The African branches of early Christianity remained faithful to their tribal allegiances.

I agree to some extent. Though, please notice that it isn't true that "the Germanic tribes and the Celts formed the various Protestant churches". I've heard that there be Catholics on Ireland, but maybe I have been misled? And Germany has many Roman Catholics, and Austria is large Roman Catholic. Croats are Roman Catholic, while the neighboring Serbs are Orthodoc, and many Bosnians are Muslim.

- FreezBee

[shunyadragon]

Yes, but to become a child again is not necessarily to become enlightened.

True, but appearing to be a child again is not necessarily becoming a child again.




I agree to some extent. Though, please notice that it isn't true that "the Germanic tribes and the Celts formed the various Protestant churches". I've heard that there be Catholics on Ireland, but maybe I have been misled? And Germany has many Roman Catholics, and Austria is large Roman Catholic. Croats are Roman Catholic, while the neighboring Serbs are Orthodox, and many Bosnians are Muslim.

- FreezBee

The old Yugoslavia is what I call a triple point ( a term I use that comes from geology where three plates come together to form an unstable junction) of regional conflict, where ancient traditional differences come together with violent consequences.

Of course, not all become protestants or whatever, but nonetheless, the various different churches follow old tribal regional lines of origin and membership. The Orthodox faiths broke along regional lines and than more local differences in Eastern Europe.

I believe there still needs to be a time when humanity must embrace our natural oneness and give up the ghost of the past whether a 'Source' we call God exists or not. The alternatives are not pleasant with the mix of tribal wars and modern weapons.

[Aupmanyav]

India is a sea of tribes (like Africa). Jats, Ahirs, Gujars, Meena, Bhils and so on (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Scheduled_Tribes_in_India). They make about 10% of the Indian population, 120 million people.

[shunyadragon]

India is a sea of tribes (like Africa). Jats, Ahirs, Gujars, Meena, Bhils and so on (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Scheduled_Tribes_in_India). They make about 10% of the Indian population, 120 million people.

True, India does have many tribes, and many religious differences and divisions follow these differences. In Africa, the religious differences, even modern conversion to churches and Islam often follow tribal lines allong with the conflicts and wars.

[popaface]

I'd like to hear some perspectives on mass-communication and tribalism from here.

The postmodern condition is a fragmented condition in which we are no longer separated into "family, neighbourhood, tribe, nation" or whatever categories one chooses to use here.

These days we are able to communicate via internet over the other side of the world and our identities are becoming all the more mixed with other cultural identities. This is also a by-part of multi-culturalism, in the Western world, and because of mass tourism, the rise of middle-class, the ease of travel, et al., we are able to be on the other side of the world in days.

A hundred years ago people could go through their entire lives without being confronted with the amount of culture that we are today. Further, since identity and culture go hand in hand (the "Self" has been described as a cultural artifact), how has this drastic change in communication affected our intrinsic tribal mentality?

Allan