Christ the Son ? well why so hard to accept ?

[Damo]

Its generally accepted in Islam, Judaism and ofcourse Christianity that Jesus was sinless from birth to assention into Heaven. Since The Book Of Life was pre-written since the dawn of time, God knew the outcome of each individual before they were ever born. Jesus himself, whether you believe that he was only a mere mortal who only came into existence in flesh only in conception from Mary and not through Devine intercesion from the Holy Spirit and became incarnate. God would have known beforehand how faultless he would have been throughout his life carrying out God's commands perfectly. Although you could argue that other prophets before him did also do as commanded, they were- before God inspired them- ordinary men, conceived in sin though, and in no-way am i trying to discredit any individual prophet of God by stating this. Merely i am saying that in someway they flawed in there entire life before God, either before God inspired them of afterwards. Its thenfor credible to say that there is nothing more pleasing to God than an unblemished soul in his eyes, someone who led a perfectly sinless life whilst in the midst of the greatest of torments and temptation. Jesus himself was that such individual- a perfect being. Now God being all knowing it would be plausable at least to see that God recognising Jesus complete loyalty and ever endurance for God that God accepted Him as His true Son. Although that now leaves everybody in a paradox of - Chosen from the beginning how could God have known of Him being perfect without the earthly trial. Well that ofcourse you could say about everyone from birth .. we are all prejudged before birth because the Book Of LIfe was prewritten before the dawn of mankind. And before the the author (God) of that Book put pen to paper if you like, He already knew what was about to be written anyway. Look at it this way. Who else is worthy of having authority over mankind under God Almighty The Father than Jesus Christ the only one in God's eyes as being truly perfect whilst amongst us. Thats why He was With God in the begginning because he was always going to have been worthy of being the first and last. Nothing imperfect is in God. Jesus was and is perfect, thats why He reigns at the right hand of the Father and is one within the Father

[Reasonable]

Book of life was written before the beginning of time? What scripture supports that?

[AVmetro]

Posted by Reasonable on Yesterday 07:18 AM:

Book of life was written before the beginning of time? What scripture supports that?

Eph1:4,5; Rev13:8; 17:8 and others. People have differences of opinion as to what those entail exactly, but I think the basic idea is the same.

-IM

[Reasonable]

Today @ 02:58 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=220162#post220162)
IronMetro:



Eph1:4,5; Rev13:8; 17:8 and others. People have differences of opinion as to what those entail exactly, but I think the basic idea is the same.

-IM

Thanka IM! I was not too familiar with that subject. Shame on me for not researching it before asking the question. I don't believe in predestination though I admit the verses you supplied seem to suggest that (though I am not saying you believe that either, you were merely answering my question). I did a little more research after you pointed me in the right direction and from what I can see, Rev 3:5; Ps 69:28 and Ex 32:32,33 would shoot down the idea that we are in fact predestined or that God wrote us in the book of life because he already knows we will be faithful to the end. Not that he can't know, maybe he just chooses not to look into the future in some instances. I don't know. It's a little philosophical and obviously not an essential belief. Is interesting though. Take care.

[David O]

You get written in when you get saved. He's been doing it since the beginning. You get blotted out if you don't produce good fruit.

[Reasonable]

Yesterday @ 10:43 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=221285#post221285)
David O:

You get written in when you get saved. He's been doing it since the beginning. You get blotted out if you don't produce good fruit.

That's how I see it too. Thanks

[AVmetro]

Reasonable:

Thanka IM! I was not too familiar with that subject. Shame on me for not researching it before asking the question. I don't believe in predestination though I admit the verses you supplied seem to suggest that (though I am not saying you believe that either, you were merely answering my question). I did a little more research after you pointed me in the right direction and from what I can see, Rev 3:5; Ps 69:28 and Ex 32:32,33 would shoot down the idea that we are in fact predestined or that God wrote us in the book of life because he already knows we will be faithful to the end. Not that he can't know, maybe he just chooses not to look into the future in some instances. I don't know. It's a little philosophical and obviously not an essential belief. Is interesting though. Take care.

Yes, I'm a little divided on the Calvinism/Arminianism issue. I'm still researching it myself. I doubt God would choose not to know the future, though.

God bless

[jesusreligion]

You stated: "Nothing imperfect is in God."

I say that God is life and the life-giving force within all that lives. For who gives life, but God? To help you, I cite this verse:
Acts 17:28 "for in Him we live and move and have our being"


Regarding your topic: "Christ the Son ? well why so hard to accept?"

I ask, Why do you make him the ONLY son? (I agree he's the firstborn of many brethren)

"Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God." Who are the sons of God? Did you notice "sons" is plural? Jesus came to show you who you really are. Can you say you are a son of God? :teeth:

[Thomas2003]

Consider Ecclesiastes 3:15


"That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been: and God requireth that which is past."

[Mitbulls]

"Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God." Who are the sons of God? Did you notice "sons" is plural? Jesus came to show you who you really are. Can you say you are a son of God?

The verse answered your question for you. Anybody who is led by the Spirit of God is a son of God. However, that does not mean that the term "sons of God" indicates that we are equal with Christ. Christ makes several claims and demonstrates power and authority that we (though we are sons of God) do not have. Jesus forgave sins, he cast out demons, he healed the sick, but most important of all, he claimed for himself attributes of divinity. Such passages as John 8:12-58 and Luke 18:37-40 set Jesus in a league of his own. He is either a legitimate son of God with divine attributes (i.e. as Christians would say, God-in-the-flesh), or he is an apostate and enemy of the Lord.

[David O]

John 3:16 "only begotten" son.

[AVmetro]

Today @ 12:55 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=226966#post226966)
David O:

John 3:16 "only begotten" son.

'Only-begotten' as found in the KJV etc,. is the Greek word monogenhV:

monogenhV monogenes; gen. monogenous, masc. -fem., neut. monogenon, from monos (3441), only, and genos (1085), stock.
Unique, one of a kind, one and only. The only one of the family (Luke 7:12 referring to the only son of his mother; 8:42, the daughter of Jairus; Luke 9:38, the demoniac boy). John alone uses monogenes to describe the relation of Jesus to God the Father, presenting Him as the unique one, the only one (monos) of a class or kind (genos), in the discussion of the realationship of the Son to the Father (John 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9). Genos, from which genes in monogenes is derived, means race, stock, family, class or kind, and geno comes from ginomai (1096), become, as in John 1:14, "And the Word became [egeneto] flesh." This in in distinction from gennao (1080), to beget, engender or create. The noun from gennao is gennema (1080), the result of birth. So then, the word means one of a kind or unique. There are two schools of thought regarding the meaning of this term. The first view, which began with Origen, teaches that Christ's unique Sonship and His generation by the Father are eternal being predicated of Him in respect to His participation in the Godhead. Although monogenes was traditionally cited in proof of this explanation, modern proponents, recognizing the mistaken identification of genes as a derivative of gennao instead of genos, understand the word to be descriptive of the kind of Sonship Christ possesses and not of the process establishing such a relationship. This would serve to distinguish the Sonship of Christ to God from that spoken of other being, e.g. Adam (Luke 3:28), angels (Job1:6), or believers (John 1:12). The last view teaches that Chris's uniwque Sonship and generation by the Father are predicated of Him in respect to the incarnation. The proponents of this interpretation unequivocally affirm the triune nature of the Godhead and Christ's diety teaching that it is the word logos (3056), Word, which designates His personage within the Godhead. Christ's Sonship expresses an economical relationship between the Word and the Father assumed via the incarnation. This stands in fulfillment of OT prophecies which identify Christ as both human, descending from David, and divine, originating from God. Like David and the other kings descending from him, Christ is the Son of God by position (2Sam. 7:14), but unlike them and because of His divine nature, He is par excellence the Son of God by nature (Psalm 2:7; Heb. 1:5). Thus the appellation referes to the incarnate Word, God made flesh, not simply the preincarnate Word. Therefore, monogenes can be held as syn. with the God-Man. Jesus was the only such one ever, in distinction with the Holy Spirit, the third Person of the Triune God.
He is never called teknon Theou (teknon [5043], child; Theou [2316], of God) as the believers are (John 1:12; 11:52; 1 John 3:1,2,10; 5:2). In John 5:18, Jesus called His very own (idion [2398]) Father. To Jesus, God was not a Father as He is to us. See John 20:17. He never spoke of God as the common Father of Him and believers. The term monogenes also occurs in Heb. 11:17.

[The Complete Word Study Dictionary by Spiros Zodhiates p.996]

God bless--IM

[jesusreligion]

Today @ 01:39 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=226948#post226948)
Mitbulls:



The verse answered your question for you. Anybody who is led by the Spirit of God is a son of God. However, that does not mean that the term "sons of God" indicates that we are equal with Christ. Christ makes several claims and demonstrates power and authority that we (though we are sons of God) do not have. Jesus forgave sins, he cast out demons, he healed the sick, but most important of all, he claimed for himself attributes of divinity. Such passages as John 8:12-58 and Luke 18:37-40 set Jesus in a league of his own. He is either a legitimate son of God with divine attributes (i.e. as Christians would say, God-in-the-flesh), or he is an apostate and enemy of the Lord.

You say we cannot do these things, as well? I seem to recall Jesus stating over and over, "If you only believe..." Either we can or cannot. If we cannot then you make Jesus a liar.

Examples: (I could cite many more)
Luke 9:41 Then Jesus answered and said, "O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you and bear with you? Bring your son here." (emphasis on "faithless")

Luke 9:49 Now John answered and said, "Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow with us."
Luke 9:50 But Jesus said to him, "Do not forbid him, for he who is not against us is on our side."

Luke 10:19 "I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you." (emphasis on all)

[jesusreligion]

Today @ 01:30 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=226940#post226940)
Thomas2003:

Consider Ecclesiastes 3:15


"That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been: and God requireth that which is past."

Consider this in light of what? I can go several ways with this one for I have considered it.
:doh:

[jesusreligion]

Today @ 06:07 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=227330#post227330)
IronMetro:



'Only-begotten' as found in the KJV etc,. is the Greek word monogenhV:



3439. monogenes, mon-og-en-ace'; from G3441 and G1096; only-born, i.e. sole:--only (begotten, child). (That's Strongs for ya'. I can do that also. Keep in mind, Spiro Z. had his own take on things as well...his own interpretation)

You see Jesus as someone 2000 years ago. I see Jesus as us: the corporate body. THE only begotten of the Father. He represents us...who we are as One in God. Who we really are collectively, "the son of God." As long as you tell people they are less than what God created them, they will believe the lie until someone shows them differently. Jesus showed us differently. Remember Peter walking on water? What was that about? Did Peter ever do that before? Why was he able to do it? Didn't Jesus ask him why he doubted? There is a divine purpose in that story...listen with your heart for it.

I know this post will send you on the attack, but I choose to make you think rather than stay put in dead religion.

[AVmetro]

The definiton of monogenhV I provided is not under too much dispute. Even among (I think) JW apologists.

As for you view, I don't think I fully understand it. Could you expound upon it some more? Thanks.

God bless you--IM

[Dee Dee Warren]

Excuse Metro, he doesn't read the Mod Guidelines.

[jesusreligion]

Today @ 08:16 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=227595#post227595)
AVMetro:


The definiton of monogenhV I provided is not under too much dispute. Even among (I think) JW apologists.

As for you view, I don't think I fully understand it. Could you expound upon it some more? Thanks.

God bless you--IM

Quite simply put, when you look at Jesus, see who you really are. He represents you, me, all of us...look at his life and do not keep him 2000 years away from you...bring him into Now.

If an organized, manmade religion was what Jesus had intended to create, then he would have himself established church buildings and the worship of himself as creator. No, men who were with him and who came after him both are guilty of creating a false religious system that is quite powerless and leads to no where. This system appears good and true like the whore in Revelation, but is dead and quite frankly disgusting to those who can see the depth of its deception.. It is based on fear. What is ironic is that the same religious system of control that attacked Jesus and nailed him to a cross because of the threat he posed to that system, is now what has spawned from those who profess to follow and speak for Jesus. Most christian leaders say they teach "God's word," but create fear, guilt and condemnation to gain followers and call it Jesus' message. Jesus' message could not be further from their false message. Jesus had followers flock to him to hear his words, and all without beating them up in God's name (Now, that is what I call a threat to organized religion!). First of all, he never attacked people; he only attacked religion, its leaders and teachers who sold its false doctrines. Secondly, Jesus always pointed to the kingdom being at hand now, and within mankind; not coming someday and outside of mankind. He never taught a condemning message of fear through the idea of an eternal hell; but instead proclaimed "all of us will be salted with fire" and "the gates of hell shall not prevail!" If the gates of hell come down for the righteous, they also must come down for the unrighteous; for the same gates imprison all mankind...the gates of fear, condemnation, guilt and wrong beliefs.

Have you ever looked at the message Jesus proclaimed versus what is proclaimed from the pulpits? Jesus preached the gospel of the kingdom of God. Big, big difference. Go study his message...piece it together from the gospels and tell me if it is the same as preached today.
:solly:

Blessings to you too, Metro...

Dee Dee:
What does the "excuse Metro" mean? I didn't see your post until after this one...(I'm new!):metro:

[OldShepherd]

Today @ 12:57 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=227723#post227723)
jesusreligion:

Quite simply put, when you look at Jesus, see who you really are. He represents you, me, all of us...look at his life and do not keep him 2000 years away from you...bring him into Now.

If an organized, manmade religion was what Jesus had intended to create, then he would have himself established church buildings and the worship of himself as creator. No, men who were with him and who came after him both are guilty of creating a false religious system that is quite powerless and leads to no where. This system appears good and true like the whore in Revelation, but is dead and quite frankly disgusting to those who can see the depth of its deception.. It is based on fear. What is ironic is that the same religious system of control that attacked Jesus and nailed him to a cross because of the threat he posed to that system, is now what has spawned from those who profess to follow and speak for Jesus. Most christian leaders say they teach "God's word," but create fear, guilt and condemnation to gain followers and call it Jesus' message. Jesus' message could not be further from their false message. Jesus had followers flock to him to hear his words, and all without beating them up in God's name (Now, that is what I call a threat to organized religion!). First of all, he never attacked people; he only attacked religion, its leaders and teachers who sold its false doctrines. Secondly, Jesus always pointed to the kingdom being at hand now, and within mankind; not coming someday and outside of mankind. He never taught a condemning message of fear through the idea of an eternal hell; but instead proclaimed "all of us will be salted with fire" and "the gates of hell shall not prevail!" If the gates of hell come down for the righteous, they also must come down for the unrighteous; for the same gates imprison all mankind...the gates of fear, condemnation, guilt and wrong beliefs.

Have you ever looked at the message Jesus proclaimed versus what is proclaimed from the pulpits? Jesus preached the gospel of the kingdom of God. Big, big difference. Go study his message...piece it together from the gospels and tell me if it is the same as preached today.
:solly:

Oh isn’t this just so thrilling yet another person who is in direct communication with heaven and the entire church is wrong and has been wrong for about 2000 years and he is going to straighten us all out. Now where is that line where all the self appointed prophets line up, along with Charlie Russell, Joe Smith, John Thomas, Jim Jones, David Koresh?

I’ll ignore the insults, name calling, and Pharisaical phinger pointing. Lets examine one of the passages which you ignored while you quoted one verse totally out-of-context.
Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.
In this passage Jesus repeated eleven (11) warnings. Hell, three times; unquenchable fire, five times; and worm that dies not, three times. Jesus must be saying something very serious to give eleven warnings.

Jesus’ ministry on earth was to seek and save that which was lost, Lk 19:10, NOT give lectures on worms and fire. Jesus was not concerned about worms that did not die, or fire that was never quenched, Jesus was concerned about people. He warned His audience that if any part of their body caused them to sin to cut it off, for it was better to enter the Kingdom of God maimed than to be cast into hell fire.

Jesus here was NOT talking about death and the grave because cutting off one’s hand will not prevent them from dying and being buried. Either Jesus was lying or there is a place that has unquenchable fire. There is a place where the worms of the condemned never die. Note the verses say “their worm” NOT “the worm.” If the condemned were eventually rescued from hell or were annihilated, then the worms would no longer be “their worm” So Jesus is very clearly talking about a place in which the fire will never be quenched, the condemned remain there forever with worms eating on their flesh and some people are cast into this place.

What does “salted with fire” mean. Does it mean everyone will be cast into hell? In the OT every offerings was accompanied with salt. The Messiah when He comes will be like a refiner’s fire. Faith is tried by fire. The work of every man is tried by fire. But there is NOT one scripture that says the righteous will be burned with fire.
Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Leviticus 2:13 And every oblation of thy meat offering shalt thou season with salt; neither shalt thou suffer the salt of the covenant of thy God to be lacking from thy meat offering: with all thine offerings thou shalt offer salt.

Malachi 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap:

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

1 Cor 3:13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

[jesusreligion]

Oh, now I am David Koresh? LOL :rofl:

I do not dispute with you the torment stated by Jesus; I just see it as having an end. I know trial by fire first hand. Better look up that word translated "hell" my friend, instead of putting a spin on it.

Here are four links to help your study of the word translated "hell" and the word translated "everlasting"

http://www.geocities.com/wendy9369/hell.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/Hell_is_Leaving_the_Bible_Forever.html
http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/
http://www.saviour-of-all.org/aion.html

My interpretation fits a bit better in light of the verse you quoted:

"If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."
(Notice the word "ANY man;" and "shall be saved, yet so by fire." God is the fire in this verse, not the devil!)

:flaming:

[Mitbulls]

You say we cannot do these things, as well? I seem to recall Jesus stating over and over, "If you only believe..." Either we can or cannot. If we cannot then you make Jesus a liar.

Examples: (I could cite many more)
Luke 9:41 Then Jesus answered and said, "O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you and bear with you? Bring your son here." (emphasis on "faithless")

Luke 9:49 Now John answered and said, "Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow with us."
Luke 9:50 But Jesus said to him, "Do not forbid him, for he who is not against us is on our side."

Luke 10:19 "I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you." (emphasis on all)

I did not say we could not do amazing things. We can work miracles. However, we can only do those things through the power of God. This means that we have God's support. The point was Jesus did all of those things, and had God's support, even though he claimed absolute divinity. Do you think you could do the same? Not unless you were divine, and since only God is divine that's doubtful.

[jesusreligion]

Today @ 10:42 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=228200#post228200)
Mitbulls:



I did not say we could not do amazing things. We can work miracles. However, we can only do those things through the power of God. This means that we have God's support. The point was Jesus did all of those things, and had God's support, even though he claimed absolute divinity. Do you think you could do the same? Not unless you were divine, and since only God is divine that's doubtful.

Agreed. Only through the power of God from within. (e.g. Christ in you...)

First you say we can..."we can work miracles." Then you seem to say we cannot?? I am confused on your point.

By the way, what scripture do you cite where Jesus claims divinity. I am curious.

[Jaltus]

For scripture on Christ claiming divinity, just read GoJ where Jesus makes "I am" statements about 7 times (without modifiers, mind you).

[shunyadragon]

Yes, I'm a little divided on the Calvinism/Arminianism issue. I'm still researching it myself. I doubt God would choose not to know the future, though.

God bless
What about free will???

[shunyadragon]

For scripture on Christ claiming divinity, just read GoJ where Jesus makes "I am" statements about 7 times (without modifiers, mind you).Claiming Divinity has more than one interpretation. I believe Christ rejected absoute Divinity and equality with God the Father in each of the gospels. Example: John 5:19 to 32.

[Findo]

What about free will???
Predestination / Election doesn't deny freewill... but by His grace, God allows us to accept the gospel rather than reject it as we do in our state of spiritual blindness..