PDA

View Full Version : Are people sent to waste our time?



Meh Gerbil
05-16-2016, 06:14 AM
After reading through a particularly offensive thread in Apologetics 301 I've come to wonder if people are actually sent to waste our time. In the thread one of our apologists spends an inordinate amount of time refuting nonsense point by point only to be met with disingenuous responses. Could the most belligerent skeptics be there as bait, as intellectual harlequins all shiny and distracting, while honest skeptics, with faint voice and humble mien, fade into the background noise?

I think that the Holy Spirit has a great role to play in Apologetics, the very first role being that of letting us know in advance that person is merely bait and a total waste of time.
I think we need to be willing to allow the clowns to say silly things while we search for those actually interested in answers.

Chrawnus
05-16-2016, 06:18 AM
After reading through a particularly offensive thread in Apologetics 301 I've come to wonder if people are actually sent to waste our time. In the thread one of our apologists spends an inordinate amount of time refuting nonsense point by point only to be met with disingenuous responses. Could the most belligerent skeptics be there as bait, as intellectual harlequins all shiny and distracting, while honest skeptics, with faint voice and humble mien, fade into the background noise?

I think that the Holy Spirit has a great role to play in Apologetics, the very first role being that of letting us know in advance that person is merely bait and a total waste of time.
I think we need to be willing to allow the clowns to say silly things while we search for those actually interested in answers.

If you're proposing we put people like Gary, Secular Liberation and Firstfloor on ignore I'm all for that notion.

Meh Gerbil
05-16-2016, 06:31 AM
If you're proposing we put people like Gary, Secular Liberation and Firstfloor on ignore I'm all for that notion.
I'm not a huge fan of the ignore feature.

I'd like to see the twebbers answer an objection once or twice and if the skeptic refuses to deal with the answer honestly then the thread should be allowed to die. It would require the twebbers to act in concert with one another. Some skeptics are just trolling or having fun, which is something I like to do from time to time myself; however, I hate to see serious people who invest significant amounts of time in an area of study waste effort with someone who isn't taking the topic seriously.

In the thread I'm referencing it is clear that Adrift has put more time into reading NT scholarship than I've spent watching Netflix - and I've watched nearly everything on Netflix. He shouldn't be wasting his time with a troll who classifies a fisherman with a sword in a garden is an 'armed rebellion'.

Because of this I'm seriously starting to wonder if people are actually sent to waste our valuable time.
Maybe the Holy Spirit has some guidance to offer here.

One Bad Pig
05-16-2016, 06:34 AM
After reading through a particularly offensive thread in Apologetics 301 I've come to wonder if people are actually sent to waste our time. In the thread one of our apologists spends an inordinate amount of time refuting nonsense point by point only to be met with disingenuous responses. Could the most belligerent skeptics be there as bait, as intellectual harlequins all shiny and distracting, while honest skeptics, with faint voice and humble mien, fade into the background noise?

I think that the Holy Spirit has a great role to play in Apologetics, the very first role being that of letting us know in advance that person is merely bait and a total waste of time.
I think we need to be willing to allow the clowns to say silly things while we search for those actually interested in answers.
I think that honest skeptics would read the exchanges and maybe rethink their skepticism. :shrug: I don't interact with Gary in an attempt to persuade him; I interact with Gary because others are reading too. I also tend to learn things while looking up answers, which is a plus.

Meh Gerbil
05-16-2016, 06:35 AM
I think that honest skeptics would read the exchanges and maybe rethink their skepticism. :shrug: I don't interact with Gary in an attempt to persuade him; I interact with Gary because others are reading too. I also tend to learn things while looking up answers, which is a plus.If you're learning in the process then it is a win.

mossrose
05-16-2016, 06:35 AM
Yes.

Unfortunately, we aren't paying attention and continually get sucked in to the same discussion, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

We are slow learners, at least I am.

Meh Gerbil
05-16-2016, 06:44 AM
Yes.
Unfortunately, we aren't paying attention and continually get sucked in to the same discussion, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.
We are slow learners, at least I am.
I'm not falling for this bait. :wink:

Sparko
05-16-2016, 11:16 AM
I'm not a huge fan of the ignore feature.

I'd like to see the twebbers answer an objection once or twice and if the skeptic refuses to deal with the answer honestly then the thread should be allowed to die. It would require the twebbers to act in concert with one another. Some skeptics are just trolling or having fun, which is something I like to do from time to time myself; however, I hate to see serious people who invest significant amounts of time in an area of study waste effort with someone who isn't taking the topic seriously.

In the thread I'm referencing it is clear that Adrift has put more time into reading NT scholarship than I've spent watching Netflix - and I've watched nearly everything on Netflix. He shouldn't be wasting his time with a troll who classifies a fisherman with a sword in a garden is an 'armed rebellion'.

Because of this I'm seriously starting to wonder if people are actually sent to waste our valuable time.
Maybe the Holy Spirit has some guidance to offer here.

Not always atheists as time wasters either. Look how much time is wasted on John Martin and Jorge.

But heck I guess it's better than watching TV. And it is good practice for when you come in contact with a real question in the real world.

I tried to get people to not feed the obvious trolls before, but they get a perverse pleasure out of stringing them along or refuse to believe they are being trolled.

Take FirstFloor for instance. He will create a troll post or thread saying something downright outrageous, obviously something trying to get the dander of Christians up. Then he sits back and watches the frenzy. At least lately people have just been telling him to go away rather than responding to him as much.

rogue06
05-16-2016, 11:37 AM
If nothing else it gives you practice when you run into someone who is serious and brings up similar questions.

Juvenal
05-16-2016, 06:14 PM
After reading through a particularly offensive thread in Apologetics 301 I've come to wonder if people are actually sent to waste our time. In the thread one of our apologists spends an inordinate amount of time refuting nonsense point by point only to be met with disingenuous responses. Could the most belligerent skeptics be there as bait, as intellectual harlequins all shiny and distracting, while honest skeptics, with faint voice and humble mien, fade into the background noise?

Sent by whom? Bait?

I read CP's story, too, and even fed the cat. And I read The Screwtape Letters (http://www.amazon.com/Screwtape-Letters-C-S-Lewis/dp/0060652934).

Let's make sure we understand the difference. Satire, done well, is lovely. Suggesting an atheist is arguing at the behest of your personal god's demons is not.

Let's not do that.

Unless they're from the Vedas. Those demons are cool.

You have to admit a gerbil posting like a human is a lot more Hindu than Christian. And what better place for a prayer wheel than a gerbil cage. This could work.

Surely there are genuine trolls, folks with a primary interest in the emotional responses at a cost to the substantive.

But, Poe's Law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law) has a corollary.

Because it's possible for folks to have wildly imaginative beliefs, some folks do, and some of them will find their way onto bulletin boards.

To take Sparko's examples, I have reason to believe Jorge and John Martin are sincere. Keeping up an act for that many years seems absurdly difficult, especially in John Martin's case, as he clearly spends significant time looking for supporting arguments. I have less experience with the three mentioned by Chawrnus.

Jorge was the founding member of my quick-scroll list, and is currently the only member.


I think that the Holy Spirit has a great role to play in Apologetics, the very first role being that of letting us know in advance that person is merely bait and a total waste of time.
I think we need to be willing to allow the clowns to say silly things while we search for those actually interested in answers.

I want to be sensitive here. This reads as a Christian only statement. If not, again, the reality is that privileging information from your own personal, religiously-appropriate spirits disadvantages arguments against random ladies getting spiritual advice from their dead cats.

To your last, the best way to find folks interested in answers is to be one yourself.

Chrawnus
05-16-2016, 06:16 PM
Chawrnus.

You're doing this just to spite me, aren't you? :sad:

Meh Gerbil
05-16-2016, 06:57 PM
To your last, the best way to find folks interested in answers is to be one yourself.
That is sound advice.

Meh Gerbil
05-16-2016, 06:57 PM
You're doing this just to spite me, aren't you? :sad:
You'd do well to not waste your time with that one.
He was sent.

Juvenal
05-16-2016, 07:27 PM
In the thread I'm referencing it is clear that Adrift has put more time into reading NT scholarship than I've spent watching Netflix - and I've watched nearly everything on Netflix. He shouldn't be wasting his time with a troll who classifies a fisherman with a sword in a garden is an 'armed rebellion'.

Adrift can decide for himself what constitutes a waste of his time.

While I generally dislike the hubris of writing for the crowd on an obscure message board, for him I'd make an exception. I don't know which thread you're referencing, but when I can find Adrift writing about NT scholarship, I welcome it. In apologetics, he's one of my favorite posters, right after robrecht.

Adrift exemplifies the ideal opponent. I learn from Adrift. His biases are so obviously opposed to my own that I can trust his arguments when I find myself in agreement.

More generally, when I engage seriously, I learn by extensive reading, or waste my time if you will. When Glenn and sylas were still actively engaging on climate science, the price of participation was a book list, as was showmeproof's writing on the Ancient Near East.

There's no substitute for doing the reading if you're going to learn, and no better way to organize your thoughts than writing them down, accepting critique.


Because of this I'm seriously starting to wonder if people are actually sent to waste our valuable time.
Maybe the Holy Spirit has some guidance to offer here.

Please don't do the crazy talk about demons sending out their atheist armies. "Demonization," as a concept, works better when it's more figurative.

Your time is yours to evaluate, and waste if you wish. If you're not getting anything out of a discussion, don't engage. There's no duty here you don't impose on yourself.

Trust my cat on this.

It's not just dead; it's nonexistent.

Juvenal
05-16-2016, 07:29 PM
You're doing this just to spite me, aren't you? :sad:

I'm getting tired of all these arguments for using my reading glasses.

Stop it.

rogue06
05-16-2016, 07:31 PM
I'm getting tired of all these arguments for using my reading glasses.

Stop it.
They muss your perfect hair?

Juvenal
05-16-2016, 07:39 PM
They muss your perfect hair?

There is no mussing that can obscure its perfection.

rogue06
05-16-2016, 07:47 PM
There is no mussing that can obscure its perfection.
Still wondering if you've been hanging around Trader Vic's drinking Pina Coladas :noid:

Juvenal
05-16-2016, 07:51 PM
Still wondering if you've been hanging around Trader Vic's drinking Pina Coladas :noid:

Visiting Trader Vic's, and not ordering the Mai Tai, is a waste of time.

Meh Gerbil
05-17-2016, 03:36 AM
Please don't do the crazy talk about demons sending out their atheist armies.
I accept the spiritual component of our existence.
That said, I don't encourage the demonization of an opponent.

Sparko
05-17-2016, 05:33 AM
Sent by whom? Bait?

I read CP's story, too, and even fed the cat. And I read The Screwtape Letters (http://www.amazon.com/Screwtape-Letters-C-S-Lewis/dp/0060652934).

Let's make sure we understand the difference. Satire, done well, is lovely. Suggesting an atheist is arguing at the behest of your personal god's demons is not.

Let's not do that.

Unless they're from the Vedas. Those demons are cool.

You have to admit a gerbil posting like a human is a lot more Hindu than Christian. And what better place for a prayer wheel than a gerbil cage. This could work.

Surely there are genuine trolls, folks with a primary interest in the emotional responses at a cost to the substantive.

But, Poe's Law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law) has a corollary.

Because it's possible for folks to have wildly imaginative beliefs, some folks do, and some of them will find their way onto bulletin boards.

To take Sparko's examples, I have reason to believe Jorge and John Martin are sincere. Keeping up an act for that many years seems absurdly difficult, especially in John Martin's case, as he clearly spends significant time looking for supporting arguments. I have less experience with the three mentioned by Chawrnus.

Jorge was the founding member of my quick-scroll list, and is currently the only member.



I want to be sensitive here. This reads as a Christian only statement. If not, again, the reality is that privileging information from your own personal, religiously-appropriate spirits disadvantages arguments against random ladies getting spiritual advice from their dead cats.

To your last, the best way to find folks interested in answers is to be one yourself.

You are wasting my time, aren't you? :glare:

I flip-flop on JohnMartin, he seems sincere and puts a lot of work into his posts but then he says something in Insane Troll Logic that he just has to be a troll.

Jorge is sincere, but he loves to troll everyone also. That is obvious from his mocking posts, done purely to get the dander up on "the enemy"

I think the internet is actually a magnet for those with odd beliefs and personalities. They have no other outlet so they seem to congregate on forums and especially facebook. And some (in this case usually theists) think they are so special that they need to spread their insights and gather followers, like a cult. Franktalk was like that, and Biblewheel before he realized he was wrong and reformed.

Meh Gerbil
05-17-2016, 06:12 AM
You are wasting my time, aren't you? :glare:

I flip-flop on JohnMartin, he seems sincere and puts a lot of work into his posts but then he says something in Insane Troll Logic that he just has to be a troll.

Jorge is sincere, but he loves to troll everyone also. That is obvious from his mocking posts, done purely to get the dander up on "the enemy"

I think the internet is actually a magnet for those with odd beliefs and personalities. They have no other outlet so they seem to congregate on forums and especially facebook. And some (in this case usually theists) think they are so special that they need to spread their insights and gather followers, like a cult. Franktalk was like that, and Biblewheel before he realized he was wrong and reformed.
Did Bible Wheel reform?
What happened?

One Bad Pig
05-17-2016, 06:14 AM
Did Bible Wheel reform?
What happened?
He deconverted, still pushed his bible wheel for a bit, then eventually realized it was all nonsense.

Juvenal
05-17-2016, 07:10 AM
Did Bible Wheel reform?
What happened?

The Bible has come unwheeled (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?9146-The-Bible-UnWheeled).

ETA: Richard aka BibleWheel joined the discussion at post 98 (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?9146-The-Bible-UnWheeled&p=279911&viewfull=1#post279911).

Meh Gerbil
05-17-2016, 07:42 AM
The Bible has come unwheeled (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?9146-The-Bible-UnWheeled).
You have to give the guy an incredible amount of credit for debunking his own long held beliefs.
His journey could be the starting point for an excellent book.

Juvenal
05-17-2016, 07:50 AM
You have to give the guy an incredible amount of credit for debunking his own long held beliefs.
His journey could be the starting point for an excellent book.

Took me too long to find it, or took you too little time to respond, but I edited the above to include a reference to his entry into that thread (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?9146-The-Bible-UnWheeled&p=279911&viewfull=1#post279911).

Sparko
05-17-2016, 08:03 AM
You have to give the guy an incredible amount of credit for debunking his own long held beliefs.
His journey could be the starting point for an excellent book.
It is sad that he went too far and left theism altogether. That is the danger of cults and outlandish beliefs based on conjecture. Once the bubble is burst, they sometimes tend to decide that God himself is not real, rather than just falling back to a normal Christian faith.

I am so thankful that did not happen with Ke7. She left mormonism and became a true Christian. Mostly due to Cow Poke, Jonathan Brown and others taking the time to befriend her and show her the truth.

Juvenal
05-17-2016, 08:28 AM
I accept the spiritual component of our existence.
That said, I don't encourage the demonization of an opponent.

The use of words like "sent" and "bait" suggest your discouragement of demonization is truer in aspiration than practice.

Nor does a spiritual component of our existence imply demonic actors, and even less so the demons of your personal belief system. I can't imagine why you prefer them. Even the Christian devil comes up lame in comparison to Kali (https://books.google.com/books?id=gkCsrfghkZ4C&pg=PA71&lpg=PA71&dq=kali+sucking+the+blood+of+demons+during+battle&source=bl&ots=mrDpE8wTwO&sig=f2TuMPcQmBjsE9WuhTzrHo6icP0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwit-_XCsOHMAhWLGR4KHYpWAwkQ6AEIKjAD#v=onepage&q=kali%20sucking%20the%20blood%20of%20demons%20dur ing%20battle&f=false).


15685

Now here's a plan. Seeing as they're your demons, and the demons of your fellow adherents, why don't you keep them for yourselves, and have them do their whispering and influencing on you. Or don't, and let's just have two relatively sane and healthy humans talking together, instead of one human talking to another who's become spiritually insane after being possessed by demons.

Calling for the exorcist to treat mental illness is so forty years ago, and messy.

If you won't care about the priests, at least think of the sidewalks.

mossrose
05-17-2016, 08:34 AM
Not all people that are irritating are "sent" by Satan. Sometimes God puts them in our way to see how we respond.

Meh Gerbil
05-17-2016, 08:40 AM
The use of words like "sent" and "bait" suggest your discouragement of demonization is truer in aspiration than practice.
The demonization of a person is the process whereby a person is ascribed demonic attributes.
That is entirely different than recognizing when someone is being used as a tool by those forces.

I think the demonization of another human being is wrong.
It is my place to have compassion on people who are currently slaves whether they realize their condition or not.

Meh Gerbil
05-17-2016, 08:41 AM
Not all people that are irritating are "sent" by Satan. Sometimes God puts them in our way to see how we respond.
TWEB color codes the names of the demon possessed in a red hue to warn those of us try to live virtuous lives.

mossrose
05-17-2016, 08:46 AM
TWEB color codes the names of the demon possessed in a red hue to warn those of us try to live virtuous lives.


:mossrose:

Sparko
05-17-2016, 08:55 AM
Not all people that are irritating are "sent" by Satan. Sometimes God puts them in our way to see how we respond.That must be why he sent me to you!

Juvenal
05-17-2016, 09:01 AM
You are wasting my time, aren't you? :glare:

It's my mission. Well, that, and cookies.


I flip-flop on JohnMartin, he seems sincere and puts a lot of work into his posts but then he says something in Insane Troll Logic that he just has to be a troll.

Jorge is sincere, but he loves to troll everyone also. That is obvious from his mocking posts, done purely to get the dander up on "the enemy"

I wouldn't call JM a true believer. He's stranger than that, or better, addicted to strange. His recent embrace of a flat earth makes me think he ate the whole bar of chocolate (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/04/opinion/dowd-dont-harsh-our-mellow-dude.html).


But then I felt a scary shudder go through my body and brain. I barely made it from the desk to the bed, where I lay curled up in a hallucinatory state for the next eight hours. I was thirsty but couldnít move to get water. Or even turn off the lights. I was panting and paranoid, sure that when the room-service waiter knocked and I didnít answer, heíd call the police and have me arrested for being unable to handle my candy.

I don't care whether Jorge is sincere. He's lazy and dishonest. Who buys a PhD if they have any self-respect. He plagiarized his response to Dee Dee on preterism!


I think the internet is actually a magnet for those with odd beliefs and personalities. They have no other outlet so they seem to congregate on forums and especially facebook. And some (in this case usually theists) think they are so special that they need to spread their insights and gather followers, like a cult. Franktalk was like that, and Biblewheel before he realized he was wrong and reformed.

Yup, and keep in mind that many of the oddest adherents strike off on their own, by choice or otherwise. Too many times I've seen muslims here whose beliefs would see then pilloried and banned from a muslim board. Could be that's why they're posting here.

And then there are the closet pastafarians who give it away by dressing up as pirates.

Juvenal
05-17-2016, 09:06 AM
That must be why he sent me to you!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pX6QlnlMqjE

One Bad Pig
05-17-2016, 09:11 AM
Not all people that are irritating are "sent" by Satan. Sometimes God puts them in our way to see how we respond.
Much of the time, people are just jerks. :shrug: It's up to us how to handle them.

Juvenal
05-17-2016, 09:13 AM
The demonization of a person is the process whereby a person is ascribed demonic attributes.
That is entirely different than recognizing when someone is being used as a tool by those forces.

Been there, done that.


I read CP's story, too, and even fed the cat. And I read The Screwtape Letters (http://www.amazon.com/Screwtape-Letters-C-S-Lewis/dp/0060652934).

Let's make sure we understand the difference. Satire, done well, is lovely. Suggesting an atheist is arguing at the behest of your personal god's demons is not.

Try to keep up.


I think the demonization of another human being is wrong.
It is my place to have compassion on people who are currently slaves whether they realize their condition or not.

On a scale of bad to worse, figurative demonization is not worse, and it's seriously creeping me out, rodent.

Juvenal
05-17-2016, 09:14 AM
Much of the time, people are just jerks.

Not all who are called are sent.

Sparko
05-17-2016, 09:19 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pX6QlnlMqjE

I was expecting a

:pinsparky:

Meh Gerbil
05-17-2016, 09:37 AM
On a scale of bad to worse, figurative demonization is not worse, and it's seriously creeping me out, rodent.
Imagine a sergeant in the U.S Military giving a speech about sacrifice and patriotism.
Imagine that same sergeant ordering his audience to take a hill infested with enemy machine gun nests.

Typical 18yr. old: "Yes sir!"
Typical 49yr. old: "After you, sergeant"

It doesn't make much to illustrate that the older and wiser among us find manipulating the younger and naÔve to be nearly effortless.

I accept that there are 'principalities and powers' far above mankind.
If those beings exist I'd imagine they'd find manipulating humanity to be rather trivial.

I'd say figurative demonization would be worse because it isn't true.
I'd say literal influence is simply the nature of reality.

Meh Gerbil
05-17-2016, 09:38 AM
Been there, done that.
What does this mean?
Were you once a fundy?

Jedidiah
05-17-2016, 12:03 PM
Calling for the exorcist to treat mental illness is so forty years ago, and messy.
Well you did have one sensible thing to say.

Sparko
05-17-2016, 12:20 PM
yeesh, I just spent two days going in circles with Darfius until I realized I was wasting my time.


Much better spent here in this thread, for sure.

One Bad Pig
05-17-2016, 12:22 PM
What does this mean?
Were you once a fundy?
See, e.g., here (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?10037-Child-Protective-Service-lt-evil&p=300876&viewfull=1#post300876). Toasti's childhood was ...less than ideal.

Meh Gerbil
05-17-2016, 01:30 PM
See, e.g., here (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?10037-Child-Protective-Service-lt-evil&p=300876&viewfull=1#post300876). Toasti's childhood was ...less than ideal.GAH!

This is one of the reasons why I don't care to do much with internet apologetics any more.
You never really know where a person is coming from and it can be a pretty big deal.

Carrikature
05-17-2016, 01:39 PM
GAH!

This is one of the reasons why I don't care to do much with internet apologetics any more.
You never really know where a person is coming from and it can be a pretty big deal.

It's not so bad if you can learn to not assume, but that's not a lesson everyone can successfully internalize. :shrug:

Meh Gerbil
05-17-2016, 04:06 PM
It's not so bad if you can learn to not assume, but that's not a lesson everyone can successfully internalize. :shrug:
To be honest I still think Taoist is a waste of time.

Juvenal
05-17-2016, 05:49 PM
Imagine a sergeant in the U.S Military giving a speech about sacrifice and patriotism.
Imagine that same sergeant ordering his audience to take a hill infested with enemy machine gun nests.

Typical 18yr. old: "Yes sir!"
Typical 49yr. old: "After you, sergeant"

It doesn't make much to illustrate that the older and wiser among us find manipulating the younger and naÔve to be nearly effortless.

:whistle:


I accept that there are 'principalities and powers' far above mankind.
If those beings exist I'd imagine they'd find manipulating humanity to be rather trivial.

I'd say figurative demonization would be worse because it isn't true.
I'd say literal influence is simply the nature of reality.

Paranoia is only useful if it's attached to the actual folks who are out to get you. As OBP has been kind enough to share my heart-felt, if ambivalent, appeal to avoid unnecessary demonization of our child care agencies, in the figurative sense, I have a handy example of why believing in demons, in the actual sense, can be a dangerously bad idea.

It can cost you the opportunity to save your life.

And that's God's own truth, the actual nature of reality.

Cerebrum123
05-18-2016, 05:52 AM
:whistle:



Paranoia is only useful if it's attached to the actual folks who are out to get you. As OBP has been kind enough to share my heart-felt, if ambivalent, appeal to avoid unnecessary demonization of our child care agencies, in the figurative sense, I have a handy example of why believing in demons, in the actual sense, can be a dangerously bad idea.

It can cost you the opportunity to save your life.

And that's God's own truth, the actual nature of reality.

The real ones can actually try to take your life. I've encountered one face to face, and I'm fairly certain that's what it wanted. I've never come even close to encountering anything so terrifying.

Meh Gerbil
05-18-2016, 05:58 AM
:whistle:
Old = Out Dated


Paranoia is only useful if it's attached to the actual folks who are out to get you. As OBP has been kind enough to share my heart-felt, if ambivalent, appeal to avoid unnecessary demonization of our child care agencies, in the figurative sense, I have a handy example of why believing in demons, in the actual sense, can be a dangerously bad idea.There are two approaches to the world of fallen angels:

1: The wild-eyed preacher, white suit, sunglasses - raising his hands in a tent in Kansas and bringing them down on a slobbering farm girl who wants the demon of 'sleeping with the entire football team' cast out.

2: The Biblical approach that recognizes that a sentient evil exists and this evil conspires against our well-being. When Paul speaks of these 'principalities and powers' he does so in a way that removes other human beings as the target. My take away from the passage is that pot smoking agnostic math teachers from Florida aren't the enemy but rather a victim of this evil (as we all are) and that my role is this world is to reduce the carnage as much as possible. This has set me free and increased my identification with other human beings because we've a common enemy.

That is all I'll say on the matter out of respect for your pain.

shunyadragon
05-25-2016, 06:43 PM
After reading through a particularly offensive thread in Apologetics 301 I've come to wonder if people are actually sent to waste our time. In the thread one of our apologists spends an inordinate amount of time refuting nonsense point by point only to be met with disingenuous responses. Could the most belligerent skeptics be there as bait, as intellectual harlequins all shiny and distracting, while honest skeptics, with faint voice and humble mien, fade into the background noise?

I think that the Holy Spirit has a great role to play in Apologetics, the very first role being that of letting us know in advance that person is merely bait and a total waste of time.
I think we need to be willing to allow the clowns to say silly things while we search for those actually interested in answers.

We are sent to waste our own time with trivial persuites of egocentric beliefs.

KingsGambit
05-25-2016, 06:55 PM
I think I mostly agree with Frank here, actually. We do not need supernatural help in this regard. We are more than good enough at finding ways to waste our time.