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Original Sin? What?

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  • Original Sin? What?

    Could a Christian here please explain this concept to me so that it makes sense? I can't make any sense of it. Seriously, Is it supposed by Christians that if Adam and Eve didn't disobey/sin, then humanity throughout the ages would have been perfect/sinless? If that is true, then how is it that Adam and Eve themselves were able to sin? I know the argument about free will, but that argument doesn't fly because they already had free will and therefore so would their descendents. In other words, what is it exactly that A+E passed on to their descendents that they wouldn't have otherwise inherited, had they not sinned?

  • #2
    I read this and my very first thought was: "Is this the sort of thing that keeps JimL up at night?"
    Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

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    • #3
      JimL,

      There are more than one interpretation. Essentially it was the first sin commited by man (Adam). In the account God gave only one prohibition. He told Man not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. After man's mate was deceived man went along with it and disobeyed. That is the original sin. But what in this causes man to be sinful? It is not the knowledge of good, but the knowledge of evil which accompanied the good. And on account of the knowledge of good man is self condemned. Note, that knowledge of good and evil was God's knowledge of good and evil (Gensis 3;5,22). The death they experienced that very day is what Christians call spiritual death (see Ephesians 2:1).

      I hope that helps.
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        JimL,

        There are more than one interpretation. Essentially it was the first sin commited by man (Adam). In the account God gave only one prohibition. He told Man not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. After man's mate was deceived man went along with it and disobeyed. That is the original sin. But what in this causes man to be sinful? It is not the knowledge of good, but the knowledge of evil which accompanied the good. And on account of the knowledge of good man is self condemned. Note, that knowledge of good and evil was God's knowledge of good and evil (Gensis 3;5,22). The death they experienced that very day is what Christians call spiritual death (see Ephesians 2:1).

        I hope that helps.
        So why does knowledge of evil in and of itself cause man to have what you call a sinful nature? If Adam ate of the fruit without yet having knowledge of good and evil, then why was it a sin for him. If you argue that he did have knowledge of evil prior to the act, then it makes no sense to say that he gained this knowledge of evil by committing the act. And if you argue that he didn't have knowledge prior to committing the act, then it makes no sense to say that he sinned. Also are you suggesting that Adam somehow passed on this knowledge of good and evil to humanity genetically?

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        • #5
          Here is the article at Theopedia.

          Here is the article at Wikipedia.

          I side with those who deny the "inherited guilt" version of Original Sin.
          Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

          Beige Federalist.

          Nationalist Christian.

          "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

          Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

          Proud member of the this space left blank community.

          Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

          Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

          Justice for Matthew Perna!

          Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

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          • #6
            That's a great question, JimL.
            The last Christian left at tweb

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            • #7
              Originally posted by JimL View Post
              Could a Christian here please explain this concept to me so that it makes sense? I can't make any sense of it. Seriously, Is it supposed by Christians that if Adam and Eve didn't disobey/sin, then humanity throughout the ages would have been perfect/sinless? If that is true, then how is it that Adam and Eve themselves were able to sin? I know the argument about free will, but that argument doesn't fly because they already had free will and therefore so would their descendents. In other words, what is it exactly that A+E passed on to their descendents that they wouldn't have otherwise inherited, had they not sinned?
              God created man with real freedom, knowing that they would sin. If not Adam and Eve then their descendants most likely would, no where in scripture does it suggest that their offspring would never sin. Now it is possible that the Holy Spirit would have had much more influence in our lives where some individuals could have remained sinless. I think A+E probably had that ability. I think the larger point is not how we got here, but the fact that we are here, and that we all in need of redemption.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by seer View Post
                God created man with real freedom, knowing that they would sin.
                I think you are right by jove, so according to this god actually created A+E with a sinful nature knowing that they would disobey him/sin.


                If not Adam and Eve then their descendants most likely would, no where in scripture does it suggest that their offspring would never sin.
                No, A+E are no different then their descendents, you know, having a sinful nature and all. Besides god is omniscient right? He would have had to have known that A+E would eat of the fruit he forbade of them. But that kind of makes a farce of the whole story, no? It means that god knew all along that A+E would disobey him, that he would then throw them out of the Eden, and that he would punish both them and their descendents for the sins he knew they would commit, that he destined them to commit. So who is at fault here, A+E, or god.

                Now it is possible that the Holy Spirit would have had much more influence in our lives where some individuals could have remained sinless. I think A+E probably had that ability. I think the larger point is not how we got here, but the fact that we are here, and that we all in need of redemption.
                Well, I assume that by Holy Spirit, you mean to say god. So, god could have had much more influence on A+E? So why didn't he then? Was the whole thing, as it seems to be, a set up? I know the usual answer to this is that they had free will, but that really doesn't square with the fact that god both created them, and knew beforehand that they would disobey him. Ya know, god, as he is defined, was omniscient before he created A+E, right? So how is it possible that A+E were free to do anything other than what god knew they would do before he created them? Seems to me that from a logical reading of the story, and an understanding of the nature of the characters in it, that the cause of original sin, and the responsibility for it lies with god, not A+E. How do you interpret it differently?

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  I think you are right by jove, so according to this god actually created A+E with a sinful nature knowing that they would disobey him/sin.
                  That is not what I said Jim and you know it, I'm done.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    That is not what I said Jim and you know it, I'm done.
                    I understand, its difficult for a believer to deal with logic contrary to their beliefs and being that you have no logical answer to this, its either face it or run away in frustration. If there is no such thing as time for god, which is why he is said to be omniscient, then he must see all of it, know all events in time, before they even happen for us, or in this case in particular for A+E, and since you say that god created time then logically only he could be resposible for those events. The story doesn't square with logic and you know it.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by JimL View Post
                      Could a Christian here please explain this concept to me so that it makes sense? I can't make any sense of it. Seriously, Is it supposed by Christians that if Adam and Eve didn't disobey/sin, then humanity throughout the ages would have been perfect/sinless? If that is true, then how is it that Adam and Eve themselves were able to sin? I know the argument about free will, but that argument doesn't fly because they already had free will and therefore so would their descendents. In other words, what is it exactly that A+E passed on to their descendents that they wouldn't have otherwise inherited, had they not sinned?
                      What if a frog had wings?
                      "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                      GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by JimL View Post
                        I understand, its difficult for a believer to deal with logic contrary to their beliefs and being that you have no logical answer to this, its either face it or run away in frustration. If there is no such thing as time for god, which is why he is said to be omniscient, then he must see all of it, know all events in time, before they even happen for us, or in this case in particular for A+E, and since you say that god created time then logically only he could be resposible for those events. The story doesn't square with logic and you know it.
                        No I thought you were being sincere - you were not. And again, we went over the whole omniscient in the past - yes God created them knowing that they would CHOOSE to sin. Not that He created them to sin or even desired them to sin.
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by JimL View Post
                          So why does knowledge of evil in and of itself cause man to have what you call a sinful nature?
                          Can you choose to do what you know nothing about? When evil is one of two choices the odds one will choose it is 50%. There are more choices than only two. So the odds of choosing an evil is smaller than choosing a good. The question then should be why do we sometimes choose what we know and understand is wrong? We do not yet understand this, the mere knowledge of evil somehow is a cause to choose an evil.



                          If Adam ate of the fruit without yet having knowledge of good and evil, then why was it a sin for him. [?]
                          Adam understood the command God gave him not to eat. To eat was to die that day (Genesis 2:17).
                          If you argue that he did have knowledge of evil prior to the act, then it makes no sense to say that he gained this knowledge of evil by committing the act.
                          Adam did not have the knowledge of good and evil to decide for himself what is good over what is evil in general. He was instructed not to do it or die that very day. One choice. Do not or die.

                          And if you argue that he didn't have knowledge prior to committing the act, then it makes no sense to say that he sinned.
                          How does it make no sense that when he disobeyed, he missed[sinned] following the one instruction?

                          Also are you suggesting that Adam somehow passed on this knowledge of good and evil to humanity genetically?
                          So it would seem so. How else? General food is genetic materal of energy and materials for mantaining health of our physical bodies.
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            No I thought you were being sincere - you were not. And again, we went over the whole omniscient in the past - yes God created them knowing that they would CHOOSE to sin. Not that He created them to sin or even desired them to sin.
                            Again, logic seer, logic. The above is absent of logic. How is it possible that god created Adam, knowing that Adam would disobey his command to not eat the fruit, and the responsibility for that disobedience still be put upon Adam? Thats inane! If god created Adam, knowing exactly what Adam would do in every circumstance thereafter, then the cause for Adams actions can't originate in Adam. Your trying to have it both ways brother. In other words your claim is a contradiction, i.e. that God created knowing the outcome of his creation and still maintaining that god could be wrong and that choices to the contrary of gods foreknowledge could be made. Again, there is no logic to that argument.

                            Then you have also the probem of god being timeless. If god is timeless, then he can't create a world in which he experiences the events therein as if passing in time, and if the events in his creation are timeless for him, then they are timeless period. There is no way to experience time, the passage of time, if you are timeless.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Jiml,

                              God knowing man would sin, made sure the knowledge of good and evil was His own knowledge of good and evil, did He not? Now why do you suppose that?
                              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                              Comment

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