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Is The Trinity Logical?

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  • Is The Trinity Logical?

    I had someone claim that God cannot do the logically impossible.

    As a rebuttal I proposed that the concept of the Trinity would be a case where a doctrine defies pure logic.
    As a rebuttal I proposed that Creation ex nihilo (something from nothing) also defies pure logic.

    So a couple of things for you to bat around:

    1: Is there any way the Trinity could be said to be logical?
    2: Is there any way Creation ex nihilo (not the theory, the something from nothing component) could be said to be logical?

    Please don't turn this into a Creation vs. Evolution thread - no part of this thread is about that.
    Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

  • #2
    Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
    I had someone claim that God cannot do the logically impossible.

    As a rebuttal I proposed that the concept of the Trinity would be a case where a doctrine defies pure logic.
    As a rebuttal I proposed that Creation ex nihilo (something from nothing) also defies pure logic.

    So a couple of things for you to bat around:

    1: Is there any way the Trinity could be said to be logical?
    2: Is there any way Creation ex nihilo (not the theory, the something from nothing component) could be said to be logical?

    Please don't turn this into a Creation vs. Evolution thread - no part of this thread is about that.
    I do not consider the belief in the trinity logical nor illogical. Trying to use logic to defend the Trinity only ends up to be begging the question.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
      I had someone claim that God cannot do the logically impossible.

      As a rebuttal I proposed that the concept of the Trinity would be a case where a doctrine defies pure logic.
      As a rebuttal I proposed that Creation ex nihilo (something from nothing) also defies pure logic.

      So a couple of things for you to bat around:

      1: Is there any way the Trinity could be said to be logical?
      2: Is there any way Creation ex nihilo (not the theory, the something from nothing component) could be said to be logical?

      Please don't turn this into a Creation vs. Evolution thread - no part of this thread is about that.
      The Trinity may defy our understanding, but I've yet to see someone demonstrate that it defies logic.

      Same goes with creatio ex nihilo.

      I don't know of a way that the concept of the Trinity or 'creatio ex nihilo' can be shown to be logical, but I haven't seen anyone demonstrate that they are illogical yet.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
        The Trinity may defy our understanding, but I've yet to see someone demonstrate that it defies logic.

        Same goes with creatio ex nihilo.

        I don't know of a way that the concept of the Trinity or 'creatio ex nihilo' can be shown to be logical, but I haven't seen anyone demonstrate that they are illogical yet.
        I think philosophers like WLC offer a way of seeing that creatio ex nihilo is logical. Coming from an anti-trinity cult, the trinity is a bit harder to explain, but having come into orthodoxy, I don't see how the doctrine of the trinity is illogical either. Ernie, if you're authentically curious about the the doctrine of the trinity, I highly suggest Dr. Craig's Defenders series on the nature of God and the nature of the trinity: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/defenders-2-podcast/s5

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        • #5
          I hold to the doctrine of the Trinity and to creation ex nihilo.
          However, I think both of these things defy logic and by that I mean the subset of logic to which God has given us access.

          So in a sense both are illogical which would be another way of saying "beyond our ability to reconcile".

          The reason the issue came up is that another poster was claiming God cannot be illogical/defy logic/act in a way inconsistent with logic.
          That isn't a mathematical statement though, it is a statement of faith because it is beyond our ability to evaluate.
          As such it would be entirely unimpressive to a skeptic.

          Skeptic: "How can God be three and one? That is illogical."
          Christian: "God cannot defy logic."
          Skeptic: "Oh, thanks man."
          Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
            I had someone claim that God cannot do the logically impossible.

            As a rebuttal I proposed that the concept of the Trinity would be a case where a doctrine defies pure logic.
            As a rebuttal I proposed that Creation ex nihilo (something from nothing) also defies pure logic.

            So a couple of things for you to bat around:

            1: Is there any way the Trinity could be said to be logical?
            2: Is there any way Creation ex nihilo (not the theory, the something from nothing component) could be said to be logical?

            Please don't turn this into a Creation vs. Evolution thread - no part of this thread is about that.
            defying logic and being logically impossible are two different things. something defies logic if you don't understand it that doesn't mean illogical,. But Trinity odes not defy logic if you understand it,
            Metacrock's Blog


            The Religious a priori: apologetics for 21st ccentury

            The Trace of God by Joseph Hinman

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
              I hold to the doctrine of the Trinity and to creation ex nihilo.
              However, I think both of these things defy logic and by that I mean the subset of logic to which God has given us access.

              So in a sense both are illogical which would be another way of saying "beyond our ability to reconcile".

              The reason the issue came up is that another poster was claiming God cannot be illogical/defy logic/act in a way inconsistent with logic.
              That isn't a mathematical statement though, it is a statement of faith because it is beyond our ability to evaluate.
              As such it would be entirely unimpressive to a skeptic.

              Skeptic: "How can God be three and one? That is illogical."
              Christian: "God cannot defy logic."
              Skeptic: "Oh, thanks man."
              most people don't understand the doctrine of Trinity, It does not say being beings in one being, three persona in one Hamousis, or essence, not a contradiction at all.
              Metacrock's Blog


              The Religious a priori: apologetics for 21st ccentury

              The Trace of God by Joseph Hinman

              Comment


              • #8
                The Trinity is the explanation of there being three different persons who each are the one and the same one God. You do not explain an explanation.

                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                Comment


                • #9
                  maybe you mean "defy known physical laws" instead of "defy logic" gerbz?

                  logical doesn't just mean "makes sense" it means corresponding to reality. it is a type of argument that is used to determine the reality and validity of a conclusion.

                  it is how we reason.

                  there are certain "laws" or axioms of logic that cannot be broken because to do so would just be nonsense. such as the law of noncontradiction. something cant be A and not-A at the same time and in the same manner. God can't exist and not exist at the same time, for example. So in that sense, God has to follow logic just like any other thing does. he can't defy logic. because that would just be nonsense.

                  creating ex nihilo is not illogical for an omnipotent being. Just incomprehensible to us. Same with the Trinity. we can't comprehend it but it is not illogical.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    maybe you mean "defy known physical laws" instead of "defy logic" gerbz?

                    logical doesn't just mean "makes sense" it means corresponding to reality. it is a type of argument that is used to determine the reality and validity of a conclusion.

                    it is how we reason.

                    there are certain "laws" or axioms of logic that cannot be broken because to do so would just be nonsense. such as the law of noncontradiction. something cant be A and not-A at the same time and in the same manner. God can't exist and not exist at the same time, for example. So in that sense, God has to follow logic just like any other thing does. he can't defy logic. because that would just be nonsense.

                    creating ex nihilo is not illogical for an omnipotent being. Just incomprehensible to us. Same with the Trinity. we can't comprehend it but it is not illogical.
                    Them's a bunch of $10 words, Sparko.
                    The last Christian left at tweb

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Trout View Post
                      Them's a bunch of $10 words, Sparko.
                      Do you want two $5's or 10 $1's or 1000 pennies. 5 $2 bills are an option too. Or just bunch of meaningless rocks.
                      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Trout View Post
                        Them's a bunch of $10 words, Sparko.
                        I had a coupon!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I think I just had an unpleasant realization.
                          It occurs to me that if 'ex nihilo' and 'trinity' are so easily understood by others that I'm way out of my depth here.

                          I apologize for wasting your time.
                          I'm not even being sarcastic.

                          Keep up the good work.
                          Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
                            I think I just had an unpleasant realization.
                            It occurs to me that if 'ex nihilo' and 'trinity' are so easily understood by others that I'm way out of my depth here.

                            I apologize for wasting your time.
                            I'm not even being sarcastic.

                            Keep up the good work.
                            It's only a waste of time if you've gotten absolutely nothing out of what people have said here, and I don't see why that should be the case. As Sparko and Chrawnus rightly puts it, the issue seems more one of semantics than anything. creatio ex nihilo, and the trinity may be difficult for limited mortals to fully comprehend, but that's quite a bit different than questioning whether they're logical.I don't fully understand how my monitor works, but I don't question whether it's logical that it does.

                            In your scenario of the skeptic and the Christian, the Christian might have been able to help the skeptic better by offering an analogy. I mean, it's not exactly hard to conceive of a being that is three but also one. So for instance, WLC hesitantly offers up the example of the mythical three headed dog of Hades, Cerberus, or if you read Marvel comics, there's the Living Tribunal. Now, of course, analogies can only go so far, and ultimately since the trinity is unique, no example will ever serve to explain it in full, but the point is, there's not anything necessarily illogical about claiming that three can also be one. Same with creatio ex nihilo, just because we may not know the exact mechanics behind God's creating from nothing doesn't mean that it defies logic. At the very least, we know that in order to accomplish creation from nothing it requires immense power and will.

                            When we refer to the logically impossible, we refer not only to those things that are difficult to comprehend, but to those things that would be patently absurd if true. Things like square circles, and married bachelors, rocks so heavy that even the Creator can't lift them, these are concepts that are logically impossible, and that would be absurd to posit that God can somehow make come to pass. To say that God cannot do the logically impossible does not mean that God is somehow less than omnipotent. It's not a weakness. God's omnipotence has always been understand within Christianity as the ability to do all that which is consistent with his own nature. God cannot sin, he cannot be deceived, he cannot die. Since the logical, orderly, and good are bound in God's very nature, then he can do anything which is logically possible, and nothing that is logically impossible.
                            Last edited by Adrift; 05-21-2016, 05:48 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
                              I think I just had an unpleasant realization.
                              It occurs to me that if 'ex nihilo' and 'trinity' are so easily understood by others that I'm way out of my depth here.

                              I apologize for wasting your time.
                              I'm not even being sarcastic.

                              Keep up the good work.
                              The Trinity is certainly not easily understood. If it were, it wouldn't have taken the church nearly 4 centuries to nail down (and it took even longer to nail down Jesus' attributes as God and man, causing various splits along the way).

                              Creatio ex nihilo is perhaps not quite so hard to nail down, but IMO it is not more logically absurd than the current naturalistic idea of a quantum fluctuation of nothing.
                              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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                              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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