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Meh Gerbil
05-24-2016, 05:51 AM
We've atheists here where at some point they had a crisis of faith.
Tough times hit, untenable answers, and *boom* they bailed out.

I know I've had a crisis of faith.
Tough times hit, untenable answers, and *boom* I didn't bail out.

You can throw around accusations depending on where you land on the issue.
Atheists: quitters, didn't really believe, trusted the wrong things, wanted illicit drug fueled sex with strangers, Taoist, etc.
Believers: cowardly, unwilling to face the truth, weak-minded, superstitious, self-righteous, Darfius, ect.

All that aside, I don't have the faintest idea as to the difference.
I don't understand why person X de-converts and person Y remains.

It's pretty easy to come up with self-serving answers but I imagine the truth of it isn't flattering.
Thoughts?

mossrose
05-24-2016, 06:56 AM
I don't believe someone who quits was ever a believer in the first place.

It's like the parables of the soils. The truth is tossed there but the ground is rocky or hard and no germination takes place.

They think they have it, but at the first sign of trouble, nope. It's not there.

Meh Gerbil
05-24-2016, 07:50 AM
I don't believe someone who quits was ever a believer in the first place.
It's like the parables of the soils. The truth is tossed there but the ground is rocky or hard and no germination takes place.
They think they have it, but at the first sign of trouble, nope. It's not there.
I dunno how charitable that view is, mossrose.
If we were to take a snapshot of Peter dying Christ, given the criteria you've offered, what would our conclusion be?
If we were to take a snapshot of David plotting the death of Uriah, given the criteria you've offered, what would our conclusion be?

Many of the skeptics didn't just hear the word and walk away but spent years in the faith and years struggling with the problems they faced.
I doubt they pitched their faith overboard at the first sign of trouble.

mossrose
05-24-2016, 08:35 AM
The truth isn't "charitable" at all, Gerbz. And only God knows a person's heart.

I can only say what I can deduce from a person's walk or lack thereof.

Without the whole of scripture, we might very well think that Peter and David and just about everybody else in the book were unbelievers. But the rest of the story shows up and we get the whole picture.

Meh Gerbil
05-24-2016, 08:56 AM
Without the whole of scripture, we might very well think that Peter and David and just about everybody else in the book were unbelievers. But the rest of the story shows up and we get the whole picture.That's an important observation.
The thing is we don't have the whole story on our current crop of baby-eating-degenerates.

I don't ever want to be in a place of kicking someone who is down.
I've plenty of blood on my sneakers from doing that.

Carrikature
05-24-2016, 09:03 AM
The truth isn't "charitable" at all, Gerbz. And only God knows a person's heart.

I can only say what I can deduce from a person's walk or lack thereof.

Without the whole of scripture, we might very well think that Peter and David and just about everybody else in the book were unbelievers. But the rest of the story shows up and we get the whole picture.

It's amazing to me how people can admit they don't have the full picture in the same breath as insisting their judgments are 'truth'.

This isn't just uncharitable. It's downright judgmental, and arrogantly so.

Carrikature
05-24-2016, 09:06 AM
We've atheists here where at some point they had a crisis of faith.
Tough times hit, untenable answers, and *boom* they bailed out.

I know I've had a crisis of faith.
Tough times hit, untenable answers, and *boom* I didn't bail out.

You can throw around accusations depending on where you land on the issue.
Atheists: quitters, didn't really believe, trusted the wrong things, wanted illicit drug fueled sex with strangers, Taoist, etc.
Believers: cowardly, unwilling to face the truth, weak-minded, superstitious, self-righteous, Darfius, ect.

All that aside, I don't have the faintest idea as to the difference.
I don't understand why person X de-converts and person Y remains.

It's pretty easy to come up with self-serving answers but I imagine the truth of it isn't flattering.
Thoughts?

I think there are a few pieces:

1) available information/answers
2) format of information (if I can't understand it, it doesn't help)
3) people willing to help
4) actions matching stated beliefs

mossrose
05-24-2016, 10:44 AM
It's amazing to me how people can admit they don't have the full picture in the same breath as insisting their judgments are 'truth'.

This isn't just uncharitable. It's downright judgmental, and arrogantly so.


The truth is the truth. I have found it. You are still looking. How do I know that? Because you are a self-proclaimed non-theist. My judgment of your condition comes from what I can see from what you say and if I could see you, then I guess by what you do.

I am not saying that you, or anyone who once claimed a relationship with Christ and "backslid", or "fell away", or whatever the catch-phrase is nowadays, will never come to that saving knowledge of Christ. That is for God and God alone to know.

I am saying that is my belief that those who claimed that relationship and then turned away were not saved to begin with. Nothing in that says, at all, that there is no hope for them.

We might never know in this lifetime whether those come to a saving faith or not. Hence, we don't have the entire picture.

And your comment is equally as judgmental and arrogant as you accuse me of being.

Carrikature
05-24-2016, 11:07 AM
The truth is the truth. I have found it. You are still looking. How do I know that? Because you are a self-proclaimed non-theist. My judgment of your condition comes from what I can see from what you say and if I could see you, then I guess by what you do.

I am not saying that you, or anyone who once claimed a relationship with Christ and "backslid", or "fell away", or whatever the catch-phrase is nowadays, will never come to that saving knowledge of Christ. That is for God and God alone to know.

I am saying that is my belief that those who claimed that relationship and then turned away were not saved to begin with. Nothing in that says, at all, that there is no hope for them.

We might never know in this lifetime whether those come to a saving faith or not. Hence, we don't have the entire picture.

I'm well aware of what you're saying, thanks. What comes next is an open question. What happened before you have no information on, for any given human. Sans information, refrain from judgment. It's not hard.



And your comment is equally as judgmental and arrogant as you accuse me of being.

Do tell. :ahem:

Meh Gerbil
05-24-2016, 11:16 AM
I think there are a few pieces:

1) available information/answers
2) format of information (if I can't understand it, it doesn't help)
3) people willing to help
4) actions matching stated beliefs
Good thoughts.
#4 seems like it should be bold.

Sparko
05-24-2016, 11:48 AM
I am just waiting for carrot to come back to the fold.

Jedidiah
05-24-2016, 11:53 AM
I dunno how charitable that view is, mossrose.
If we were to take a snapshot of Peter dying Christ, given the criteria you've offered, what would our conclusion be?
If we were to take a snapshot of David plotting the death of Uriah, given the criteria you've offered, what would our conclusion be?

Many of the skeptics didn't just hear the word and walk away but spent years in the faith and years struggling with the problems they faced.
I doubt they pitched their faith overboard at the first sign of trouble.

A friend of mine first heard the gospel from a man who had retired from the ministry, thinking for his whole life that he was a Christian. This ex pastor then was saved, recognized that he had not been before. That is the man was a serious self described Christian. He never fell away, but learned that the faith he thought he had was lacking in reality. It is easy to imagine someone who similarly thought he was a Christian falling away rather than coming into a true faith in Christ.

Jedidiah
05-24-2016, 11:55 AM
It's amazing to me how people can admit they don't have the full picture in the same breath as insisting their judgments are 'truth'.

This isn't just uncharitable. It's downright judgmental, and arrogantly so.

You do not have to understand the theory of gravity to recognize that things always fall down and never up.

Darfius
05-24-2016, 03:51 PM
We've atheists here where at some point they had a crisis of faith.
Tough times hit, untenable answers, and *boom* they bailed out.

I know I've had a crisis of faith.
Tough times hit, untenable answers, and *boom* I didn't bail out.

You can throw around accusations depending on where you land on the issue.
Atheists: quitters, didn't really believe, trusted the wrong things, wanted illicit drug fueled sex with strangers, Taoist, etc.
Believers: cowardly, unwilling to face the truth, weak-minded, superstitious, self-righteous, Darfius, ect.

All that aside, I don't have the faintest idea as to the difference.
I don't understand why person X de-converts and person Y remains.

It's pretty easy to come up with self-serving answers but I imagine the truth of it isn't flattering.
Thoughts?

Ultimately, there are two sorts of people. People who understand and enact the golden rule and those who don't. Some may call themselves Christians and some may not. Sheep and goats. One cannot truly and completely understand it until one knows Christ and many people call Him, "Lord, Lord" without knowing Him.

Jedidiah
05-24-2016, 06:54 PM
Ultimately, there are two sorts of people. People who understand and enact the golden rule and those who don't. Some may call themselves Christians and some may not. Sheep and goats. One cannot truly and completely understand it until one knows Christ and many people call Him, "Lord, Lord" without knowing Him.

Darfius, this sounds very much as though you are suggesting that understanding and following the golden rule is the criterion for whether one is a Christian or not. That is not the case. If that is not what you are suggesting could you make a clearer statement for me?

Darfius
05-24-2016, 07:59 PM
Darfius, this sounds very much as though you are suggesting that understanding and following the golden rule is the criterion for whether one is a Christian or not. That is not the case. If that is not what you are suggesting could you make a clearer statement for me?

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Darfius
05-24-2016, 08:02 PM
And:

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Jedidiah
05-24-2016, 08:16 PM
I understand your last two posts, Darfius, but I would really like to hear (read) your specific take on salvation - which is what makes one a Christian.

Darfius
05-24-2016, 08:20 PM
I understand your last two posts, Darfius, but I would really like to hear (read) your specific take on salvation - which is what makes one a Christian.

Reciting or believing a formula could never make one a Christian. Those whom the Lord condemned as evildoers at least had SOME works (casting out demons, prophesying) they could point to as evidence of their Christianity. Imagine what He will say to those who just stop at "Lord, Lord" and don't have ANY works.

Jedidiah
05-24-2016, 08:22 PM
Reciting or believing a formula could never make one a Christian. Those whom the Lord condemned as evildoers at least had SOME works (casting out demons, prophesying) they could point to as evidence of their Christianity. Imagine what He will say to those who just stop at "Lord, Lord" and don't have ANY works.
You are quite right in saying "Reciting or believing a formula could never make one a Christian." What I would like to see is what you do believe makes one a Christian, instead of what does not.

Darfius
05-24-2016, 08:37 PM
You are quite right in saying "Reciting or believing a formula could never make one a Christian." What I would like to see is what you do believe makes one a Christian, instead of what does not.

Here is my definition of a Christian:

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

16 Jesus answered, “My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me. 17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

The portions in bold being my definition of a Christian and the underlined portions being the Lord's clarification of that.

Sparko
05-25-2016, 08:03 AM
Here is my definition of a Christian:

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

16 Jesus answered, “My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me. 17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

The portions in bold being my definition of a Christian and the underlined portions being the Lord's clarification of that.

And what is the will of the Father?

Jedidiah
05-25-2016, 09:18 AM
You have completely omitted the Gospel.


Here is my definition of a Christian:

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

16 Jesus answered, “My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me. 17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

The portions in bold being my definition of a Christian and the underlined portions being the Lord's clarification of that.

Darfius
05-25-2016, 10:56 AM
And what is the will of the Father?

Great question. As you can probably imagine, He doesn't just have one thing He wants, but we must constantly be seeking out His will in order to see it done:

9So then, this is how you should pray: ‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be Your name, 10Your kingdom come, Your will be done , on earth as it is in heaven.

Though there is one thing He wants above all because by doing it, we will be empowered to know His will in all things:

35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

Darfius
05-25-2016, 11:28 AM
You have completely omitted the Gospel.

You little people and your buzz words. You have a big name, Jedidiah. Don't be a little person.

42 At daybreak, Jesus went out to a solitary place. The people were looking for him and when they came to where he was, they tried to keep him from leaving them. 43 But he said, “I must proclaim the good news of the kingdom of God to the other towns also, because that is why I was sent.” 44 And he kept on preaching in the synagogues of Judea.

5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7 As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’ 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

So the Gospel is the kingdom. What is the kingdom? The Lord answers that quite succinctly with a little Hebrew parallelism:

33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

So the kingdom is God's righteousness. But how do we attain God's righteousness, that is, the kingdom?

3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

So the gospel, or good news, is that we may attain God's righteousness by knowledge of Jesus Christ. But a true knowledge of Christ will result in obedience to Him, else He will say, "Depart from Me, evildoer! I never knew you!"

Sparko
05-25-2016, 11:47 AM
Great question. As you can probably imagine, He doesn't just have one thing He wants, but we must constantly be seeking out His will in order to see it done:

9So then, this is how you should pray: ‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be Your name, 10Your kingdom come, Your will be done , on earth as it is in heaven.

Though there is one thing He wants above all because by doing it, we will be empowered to know His will in all things:

35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

I mean what is the will of the Father in the context of salvation. What must we do to be saved?

I agree with your second bit. That is what we need to do to be saved, believe in Jesus. We do other things in the will of the Father BECAUSE we are saved, not to be saved. I think that is what Jed was getting at regarding your earlier posts. Those that are not doing the will of the Father are probably not saved. But just doing works, like casting out demons, or even helping the down and out, doesn't mean you are saved. Even atheists can be good to their neighbors. That doesn't mean they are saved. Works don't save anyone. They can be indications that you already ARE saved though. Or indications that maybe you need to check your faith if you are NOT doing the will of God.

shunyadragon
05-25-2016, 04:25 PM
I dunno how charitable that view is, mossrose.
If we were to take a snapshot of Peter dying Christ, given the criteria you've offered, what would our conclusion be?
If we were to take a snapshot of David plotting the death of Uriah, given the criteria you've offered, what would our conclusion be?

Many of the skeptics didn't just hear the word and walk away but spent years in the faith and years struggling with the problems they faced.
I doubt they pitched their faith overboard at the first sign of trouble.

It is not charitable at all. It is a very cynical view they never truely believed questioning believers sincerity of belief, because they chose to change from a Christian to an atheist. Some it is back again. Some atheist become Christian, Muslims or Baha'is. People change their belief because they have personal reason to change. Making rude assumptions of others concerning the sincerity of their belief is egocentric foolishness.

Some Christians believe that in reality atheist inside believe in God. It is also likely that many Christians believe that God does not exist, at least the Christian God does not exist.

Jedidiah
05-25-2016, 04:32 PM
I agree with your second bit. That is what we need to do to be saved, believe in Jesus. We do other things in the will of the Father BECAUSE we are saved, not to be saved. I think that is what Jed was getting at regarding your earlier posts.

Exactly.

Jedidiah
05-25-2016, 04:34 PM
It is not charitable at all. It is a very cynical view they never truely believed questioning believers sincerity of belief, because they chose to change from a Christian to an atheist. Some it is back again. Some atheist become Christian, Muslims or Baha'is. People change their belief because they have personal reason to change. Making rude assumptions of others concerning the sincerity of their belief is egocentric foolishness.

I believe you are totally wrong.

shunyadragon
05-25-2016, 04:36 PM
I believe you are totally wrong.

Of course you do.

Carrikature
05-26-2016, 10:41 AM
You do not have to understand the theory of gravity to recognize that things always fall down and never up.

It's not a one way street. It's not a simple if-then relationship. If you throw a ball up in the air, it will come back down. It might hit the ground and stop, or it might bounce. It might bounce a few times. You have no way of knowing where in the sequence the ball is, let alone what the full sequence will look like. On top of that, you believe that some balls never come back down. What you're really claiming is that the ball never left the ground in the first place.

That's not 'theory of gravity' at work. Far from it.

KingsGambit
05-26-2016, 12:35 PM
I want to back up to 1 John 2:19 because that is in essence what this debated around. The first thing I'd like to point out is that it seems rather polemical in nature so we have to question whether it's intended to be a hard and fast rule for all time or just what John was saying about the specific gnostic teachers he was writing against there. Even writing from a Calvinist perspective, Joseph Dillow went with the second, writing:

Nor is there the statement that, if a man departs from the faith, this proves he was never a Christian in the first place. What is taught is that, if these so-called apostles were really apostles, they would have listened to the apostles John and would have continued in the fellowship with the Twelve ((Reign of the Servant Kings, p. 167).

Strictly speaking, it isn't really relevant what somebody's past status was. What matters is whether they are abiding in the faith now. We would do well to be more concerned with that with people. However, the Parable of the Prodigal Son does point to somebody being dead and alive again, implying they were previously alive.

Jedidiah
05-26-2016, 03:07 PM
It's not a one way street. It's not a simple if-then relationship. If you throw a ball up in the air, it will come back down. It might hit the ground and stop, or it might bounce. It might bounce a few times. You have no way of knowing where in the sequence the ball is, let alone what the full sequence will look like. On top of that, you believe that some balls never come back down. What you're really claiming is that the ball never left the ground in the first place.

That's not 'theory of gravity' at work. Far from it.Yeah, what I said. Just a different perspective.

Jedidiah
05-26-2016, 03:14 PM
I want to back up to 1 John 2:19 because that is in essence what this debated around. The first thing I'd like to point out is that it seems rather polemical in nature so we have to question whether it's intended to be a hard and fast rule for all time or just what John was saying about the specific gnostic teachers he was writing against there. Even writing from a Calvinist perspective, Joseph Dillow went with the second, writing: ((Reign of the Servant Kings, p. 167).I do not see it as a rule at all. It is simply a description of fact.


Strictly speaking, it isn't really relevant what somebody's past status was. What matters is whether they are abiding in the faith now. We would do well to be more concerned with that with people. However, the Parable of the Prodigal Son does point to somebody being dead and alive again, implying they were previously alive.You are quite right in pointing out it is not really our business as to what their past status was. God knows what it was. God knows what the heart knows and that is what matters. I do not see the prodigal son as pointing to salvation at all. It points to the process of realizing what we do not have.

Trout
06-01-2016, 06:11 AM
Does Darfius we set toe of getting kicked around this forum?