why christianity and islam are probably false and damaging religions,

[shadowman]

1. Why do some choose god and why do some reject it?

Or

Why does Sarah like robbing people and why does Sara like feeding them?

Or

Why is person a different from person b?


This is a difficult point to explain. I have yet to explain it sufficiently I think, but I will attempt it now.

What makes me different from my twin brother?

Why did I grin after coming out of the womb and being burped for the first time while my twin brother giggled?

Are we a blank state upon being born as Locke thought? I say that we are to an extent

We have not yet been enculturated, we don't know values, words, we can't think in words, I wonder if we can even "think" at all. We don't differentiate. We don't see patterns. We don't know that blue and green are different.

At the same time, we are obviously not all equal. We have (genetic? Divine?) predispositions and proclivities and nuances of temperament that become aware as we progress through life.

Or maybe everything is JUST a result of our unique experience as we progress through life..

Who knows?

The key with these questions is to get you to think about this kind of stuff, and for the purpose of this little argument, to think about how these ideas relate to the concept of a god!

Lets look at the question of free will, and also lets look at the differences between those that pick god (jesus, allah, other god) and those that either don't pick any god, or pick the wrong god..

What is the difference?

Why does one person choose to submit to allah and have a relationship with him, and why does the next person not choose allah?

Lets remove the extremely complicated dynamics of being raised in a muslim vs non muslim culture.. And lets also ignore the weird questions that arise from examining what people are most likely to pick as their idea of god given the type of culture environment they were raised in!


Lets focus on two test subjects, both raised in 20th/21st century america.. Maybe even in the same town! MAybe even twins!

Why does one twin follow jesus and the bible and the other does not?

Free will doesn't answer the question. Free will simply states that it is us and not god that control our destinies. (Unless I am mistaken)

So given that we have a free will, and ignoring the question of "how much are we really "in control of our destiny?" when none of us asked to be here and had to be created by an outside being!" then why does one person make one decision and another person make a different decision?

Is one person called by god and the other not called by god? If this is so, when did god decide he would call the person, and why did he decide he would call the person? If he doesn't call someone, does god still exact punishment on the uncalled person after death?

Does god control absolutely everything? To the point that he is controlling me typing this sentence, and the thoughts of you as you read them? This is possible, but it would negate the notion of a true free will. It would also be pretty screwed up, implying that god created people solely to lead astray and send to hell!

So why does one person reject god and another accept it? What, exactly, is the difference?

Is it random?

Maybe we are dropped into a world of experiences, and those expereinces shape our perceptions and our future experiences, which in turn shape future and later experiences, resulting in one big huge expereince/interaction.. Followed by death. You can't back out of this and say it's too complicated. Life IS in TOTALITY the sum of ALL our experiences, combined with the sum of ALL of our perceptions of those experiences combined with ALL the "choices" we made during those experiences, combined with ALL the thoughts we had during those experiences and while making choices! IT's complicated as the dickens, but it is what it is, and it can be looked at and thought about!

So what is the answer?

Why are you accepting jesus and me rejecting him. Why exactly.. Because we have free will does not answer this question!



2. Are we all being gambled with?

Does god know who is going to choose him and who is going to accept him "since before time began?" IF HE DID, than this is almost inexcusable behavior! How is it "with our best interests at stake" to create people knowing they will go to hell? That seems wrong.

IF HE DIDNT, then he is GAMBLING with our eternal destinies! IT could very well be that every sinbgle human rejects god!

Either way.. IT appears to be a divine game that we are forced into playing.. And as the Christians like saying, we are playing roulette with a fully loaded gun..


3. Are gods machines out of control?

We have free will.. Doesn't this imply a lack of control on gods part? We have the freedom to go against his will! He can't control us. Or can he? Please discuss!

Also, if he is not controlling us.. Is he controllingn things like being mauled by animals, tsunamis, earthqukes, being run over, catching aids, etc? Is he copntrolling the perceptions that people make about reality after being exposed to forces not under gods control (like other humans, or natural events?)

4. How much power does the devil have? Does the devil deceive people to the point of them going to hell?

Why does god let the devil have so much power that he leads countless humans astray?

5. Cognitive dissonance. Most mainstream religions preach that it is okay, acceptable and good that god punishes unbelievers forever in hell. At the same time most mainstream religions preach that we should love each other!

This leads to cognitive dissonance, holding two or more radically opposed ideas in the mind and using both of those ideas to shape our view of a given situation! In this case the given situation is "how to view humanity and how to treat humans all the time, at the most fundamental level, at every point in time!"

How is it truly possible to love someone when in your mind you also think it is perfectly fine for them to be tortured FOREVER?

6.


Are we to assume that this world and everything in it is evidecne of "the best god can do?"

Are we to assume that an all perfect being is responsible for all of this?

Or are we the unfortunate participants in Gods big cosmic screw up!


You know better than to post in theist only areas. You had a thread which was moderated in theology 201 for the same reason, was started by you again in unorthodox theology, which is also theist only.

It has been moved to Apologetics, where it should have been in the first place.

[Paintbucket]

There are some things that are genetically programmed into people's brains, and they help to mold things. The mind is not a completely blank slate, as we have basic reflexes and things of that sort. The vast majority of what we learn comes afterwards through experience but I figured I'd make the point that not everything is learned, that there are some basic instincts that we have.

[damienl]

Why does one twin follow jesus and the bible and the other does not?


Whatever your soteriology, it has nothing to do with whether Christianity or Islam is true. It could be that they did not see the same evidence (e.g. one fell upon a Christian/Muslim website, the other did not), that their evaluation of the evidence is different, etc.

If you are a Calvinist, you can also say that God sovereignly chose one and not the other.


If this is so, when did god decide he would call the person,


`before' all worlds (= it is an eternal act of God)


does god still exact punishment on the uncalled person after death?


Yup. You're not condemned because of your unbelief but because of your evil acts, which make you worthy of punishment. There is no `right' to be saved any more than there is a `right' to be pardoned when you've been convicted of a crime.


Does god control absolutely everything? To the point that he is controlling me typing this sentence, and the thoughts of you as you read them?


God remains in control, but it is not necessary that he specifically ordains everything. If he allows something to happen, he is still in control. Similarly, a small change at one particular time can make all the difference. `For want of a nail, the shoe was lost...'


IF HE DID, than this is almost inexcusable behavior! How is it "with our best interests at stake" to create people knowing they will go to hell?


Who said he had to act according to *our* best interests (or what we perceive them to be)? Really, how do you know that spending eternity in hell is not better than never having been born (especially if, as some have argued, hell is actually locked from the inside).

EDIT: Norman Geisler makes the same point when he says:


It is important to note that nonexistence cannot be said to be a better condition than any
kind of existence, since nonexistence is nothing. And to affirm that nothing can be better
than something is a gigantic category mistake. In order to compare two things, they must
have something in common. But there is nothing in common between being and nonbeing.
They are diametrically opposed.

http://www.ankerberg.org/Articles/_PDFArchives/theological-dictionary/TD3W1101.pdf


Furthermore, those who will go to Hell will because of their own actions, not because of God. This objection is more an argument from outrage than anything else.


holding two or more radically opposed ideas in the mind

I don't see why they are radically opposed.


tortured


They're not tortured, it's a gross (medieval) misunderstanding of the nature of hell.

[shadowman]

Whatever your soteriology, it has nothing to do with whether Christianity or Islam is true. It could be that they did not see the same evidence (e.g. one fell upon a Christian/Muslim website, the other did not), that their evaluation of the evidence is different, etc.

If you are a Calvinist, you can also say that God sovereignly chose one and not the other.

so either its totally random whether or not someone goes to heaven or hell, or god creates some people knowing they are going to hell.

neither alternative is indicative of a god that has our interests at stake.

and no, i guess god doesnt have to have our interests at stake....

In my understanding of christianity and islam he definitely does not like humans very much, and he is actually kind of mean in relation to us!

why are humans worthy of punishment?

[Chaotic Void]

I'm just responding to the questions.

1. Why do some choose god and why do some reject it?
There's many a reason why some Accept God and why some reject God.

2. Are we all being gambled with?
Not really. We Choose our own paths.

3. Are gods machines out of control?
Nope.

4. How much power does the devil have?
As much Power as God Lets him have.

Does the devil deceive people to the point of them going to hell?
It's their fault for choosing to be deceived and submitting to their selfish desires.

5. How is it truly possible to love someone when in your mind you also think it is perfectly fine for them to be tortured FOREVER?
When you offer a way out, there's No Contradiction.

6. Are we to assume that this world and everything in it is evidence of "the best god can do?"
It's more like "What he did".

No Offense, but you're doing a really crappy job of trying to paint a God [that you don't believe exists] as a Bad guy...

And What do these questions have to do with Christianity and Islam?

[interrapax]

5. Cognitive dissonance. Most mainstream religions preach that it is okay, acceptable and good that god punishes unbelievers forever in hell. At the same time most mainstream religions preach that we should love each other!

This leads to cognitive dissonance, holding two or more radically opposed ideas in the mind and using both of those ideas to shape our view of a given situation! In this case the given situation is "how to view humanity and how to treat humans all the time, at the most fundamental level, at every point in time!"

How is it truly possible to love someone when in your mind you also think it is perfectly fine for them to be tortured FOREVER?

1. You say that most mainstream religions do this and that. 1. How do you define a mainstream religion? i would say that most Mainstream religions follow todays MAIN STREAM, and that todays main stream is "new age" and individual syncretisme... and well, most MAINSTREAM religions do NOT preach damnation.

2. You argue that accepting the possibility of damnation aswell as that we should love each other leads to cognitive dissonance. But your point has no value of proof, when you do nothing to proove that the two beliefs are contradicting. If a person can reason for himself that these are not contradictory beliefs, then they will not lead to cognitive dissonance..

and cognitive dissonance is a discomfort, but not necesarily harmfull to an individual..

3. You do nothing in your thread to proove Christianity and Islam as either harmfull nor false.

4. you ask questions that your own line of thought may actually answer to some extent.
for example: Lets focus on two test subjects, both raised in 20th/21st century america.. Maybe even in the same town! MAybe even twins!

Why does one twin follow jesus and the bible and the other does not?

and you state: At the same time, we are obviously not all equal. We have (genetic? Divine?) predispositions and proclivities and nuances of temperament that become aware as we progress through life.

Or maybe everything is JUST a result of our unique experience as we progress through life..

From that we can reason that even if Two twins with the same genetic pool, because of minor or major differences in experience, will respond differently even to the exact same line of argument, ofc they may respond in a similar way, but it follows that there should be some differences in the way they respond/react...

Not saying that this is a definite answer, i'm just wondering if you yourself have thought this well enough through? i cannot see a wholeness or a connection between your thoughts/questions?
They seem random, and you show to some extent a lack of understanding of the words your using..

it seems your line of thought is more determined by feelings, than by reason.

is it?


Are we to assume that this world and everything in it is evidecne of "the best god can do?"

Is you ask Leibniz, he will say yes. And do you have any proof to show otherwise?
Is it logical to imagine that reality could be pink elephants walking around on a puffy cloud?
Do we have any evidence to suggest that this is not the best of all possible ways the world could be ?(i'm talking about what we have to work with, not the actuall work we do)

not saying it is, i'm just saying think this through.

Love Pax

[abu njoroge]

From the point of view of it being all about human life, the God idea leaves a lot of unaswered questions. Imagine thier is a place beyond duality. we are in the worlds of dualit.y. For everything positive here, there is also something negative . I believe For the most part God is indifferent to the plights of the human body because we chose to come here before we were born. WE are soul. AS soul we are beyond pain and suffering. while here we feel pain and suffering. This world is the forge that slowly burns away all that is impure. No impure thing can stand before the almighty. I personally do not believe that christianity and Islam are false. They are paths whose ultimate goal is to bring one closer to God. I am ever the sceptic I do not believe just anything just because it is in print. When any man anywhere claims to have the ultimate path to God,I may investigate and decide for myself. Any religion that does not show the Great Mercy, Love,and Joy that can be found in God ,to me are misleading and false. Many older teachuing are more about survival here on planet earth, to me true religion is about finding God and realizing the Kingdom as Truth and a inherited Reality for soul.The old testament is filled with laws to govern the life of the tribes of Isreal living in a chaotic time. Perhaps some of the original Rabbis interpretation of these laws was influenced by personal beliefs? I may be a sceptic,I will say that the spirit of the bible isTruth. I do not worship the written word I only worship God, The one being that was here before all books,tools,ideas, and man made concepts. For those that dont believe there definitly was something here before planet earth,I believe it was alive and is life itself, religion says it is eternal.

[FlimFlamboyant]

1. Why do some choose god and why do some reject it?
Wait; what does this have to do with establishing whether or not Christianity and Islam are false, or even dangerous? I don't see how my ability to answer such a question has any bearing on the truthfulness on the issue as a whole.

[billywheaton]

Is orhtodox sociology/psychology/science tantamount to 'unorthodox theology'? the moving of the post to there seems to suggest this association from the moderators. I am encouraged- as this shows insight into some of the problems of their 'orthodoxy'.

Billy

[abu njoroge]

Because we have free will.It is natural to be sceptical. It is ignorance to blindly follow just because someone says something is true,we have to investigate and decide for oneself. Any religion can be dangerous when taken out of context, or when flawed from the beginning like jim jones cult. True christianity is about love,yet during the inquisition it was the most dangerous movement on the planet. Islam today falls in this catagory,This happens when followers depend more on a supposidly authority figure instead of inner revelation from God, when something spiritual comes to me I have to ask three questions, Is it true,is it kind , is it necessary, If I cant answer yes to all three than it probably is not from God. Also I have to add the God of hate that teaches us and not them ,we and not you, Is no God at all, but a man made concept. When ones views are backed with hatred, intolerance,selfishness,vanity,and violence, Then they are actually following the false god of this world He said to Jesus up on the mountain , you can have all of this all you have to do is bow down to me. Some in Islam believe God is going to make an Islamic kingdom here on earth. This is similar to the idea of a new jerusalem. The true new jerusalem is not a kingdom here on earth ,but a city that is found in the heavenly kingdom. This planet (earth) is governed by one who has supposidly fallen he is the negative one,opposite of good and light.