KOSOVO: Now Ethnically Cleansed of Non-Muslims [Archive]

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Rdr. Arsenios

February 22nd 2008, 10:35 PM

Objectitron

February 23rd 2008, 12:56 AM

After the false charges of ethnic cleansing and genocide by the Serbs. and the attack on the Serbs by the US, it looks like the long range plans of our State Department in that venture are finally coming to light, and that is to establish an independent Islamic state in Europe.

The persecution of Christians, and the rempant destruction of their Churches in Kosovo since the UN troops have acted as "peacemakers" has finally driven out of the territory virtually all of the Christians, Jews, Croats, and any other non-Muslim presence, so that President Bush now proudly proclaims a new Islamic State with a "majority" of Muslims as its population...

These are the State Department plans that are made in dark recesses of the State Department... They are not up for public debate or view... They are daqrk and evil and ugly... Flushing them out into the light is a good thing... Defending the move, all President Bush would say was "This is a necessary and good thing for the Balkans..." He could not say why... There was no cause for the US involvement on trumped up and false charges to begin with, and the reason for them is now being made apparent... And it looks like our President is acting as a pawn in a pre-scripted plan of which the American people are unaware...

Evil is being called good, and good evil...

Arsenios

I don't think you know what you're talking about, neither do you understand the history of this conflict. It has nothing to do with religion, but everything to do with power and politics. After the Bosnian wars in the mid 90's Milosevic chose to ethnically cleanse the Albanians from Kosovo in an effort to keep Kosovo as a "greater" Serbia. Kosovo is 90% Albanian and have lived in the region as a majority for decades. When these ethnic cleansings were interrupted by NATO bombings in 1999, Kosovo became a UN protectorate city.

What would the alternative be? Should the UN give control to 10% of the population because the Albanians happen to be secular Muslims? Maybe this decision by the Kosovars was rushed, but it was inevitable. If the Serbs were keen on keeping Kosovo, they shouldn't have attempted to exterminate an entire culture.

I don't think you understand the oppression the Albanians lived under for a long period of time; Apartheid comes to mind. The KLA is not an islamic terrorist unit, but more of a political movement to oust the Serbian leadership in Kosovo. Religion is not a high priority on either sides, nor is it a true motivator. It is used more as a front or a platform. Serbs were communists for over 50 years, do you think they just all of sudden became religious? And the ethnic Albanians as a whole are secular Muslims. They do not wish to create an Islamic state, nor would any Western country support such an endeavor.

Kosovo becoming independent has been talked about well before the war in 1999. Slobodan Milosevic and his regime should be blamed for the loss of Serbian land. Kosovo could not be an "international" city forever, nor could it be given to Serbia because 90% of the population is ethnic Albanian. This decision was inevitable.

However, I agree that within any country comprised with a majority of Muslims does have the propensity to harbor and encourage terrorist activities. This is concerning because the KLA is a unified political body who could become radicalized under Islam. This does not however represent the population of Kosovo and they should have the right of self-determination. The US and other Western countries will have a strong influence in the future gov't of Kosovo as well as its infrastructure. The gov't has already pledged protection of minority Serbian rights. Kosovo is in no political position to become an Islamic state that sponsors terrorism. Democracy and modernization is their only hope of survival and they realize this. They have pressure from the West to act accordingly for stabilization and they have pressure from Russia and Serbia to act accordingly or face possible military action. So, they should act accordingly.

Ryokan

February 23rd 2008, 01:41 AM

After the false charges of ethnic cleansing and genocide by the Serbs. and the attack on the Serbs by the US, it looks like the long range plans of our State Department in that venture are finally coming to light, and that is to establish an independent Islamic state in Europe. That is ridiculous and rank conspiracism. What we have done is establish a semi-autonomous EU vassal state in the Yugoslavia. The state department's plan, as you have it, was to atone for the sins of Rwanda.

The persecution of Christians, and the rempant destruction of their Churches in Kosovo since the UN troops have acted as "peacemakers" has finally driven out of the territory virtually all of the Christians, Jews, Croats, and any other non-Muslim presence, so that President Bush now proudly proclaims a new Islamic State with a "majority" of Muslims as its population... These areas have been always majority albanian. Until SLobadon Milosevic attempted to import Serbs into the area, it was about as it is now. Yes, the attacks on the churches were reprehenisble, but the Serbian brutality towards the Albanians was just as appalling, far more widespread, and committed with the backing of the Serbian state.

These are the State Department plans that are made in dark recesses of the State Department... They are not up for public debate or view... They are daqrk and evil and ugly... Flushing them out into the light is a good thing... Defending the move, all President Bush would say was "This is a necessary and good thing for the Balkans..." He could not say why... There was no cause for the US involvement on trumped up and false charges to begin with, and the reason for them is now being made apparent... And it looks like our President is acting as a pawn in a pre-scripted plan of which the American people are unaware... The charges were not false. Milosevic had a very specific plan of ethnic cleansing, and the West responded as it should have, as it was obligated too.

The following is from: http://209.62.84.132/index.php?fa=PAGE.printable&pageId=56836

[box]The bishop's flock has good reason to fear. Far from the usual claims that NATO stopped a humanitarian catastrophe in Kosovo in 1999, the past nine years have seen a slow-motion genocide in progress against the province's Christian Serbian population under the nose of the U.N. and NATO, and at times with their facilitation. Two-thirds of the Serbian population already has been expelled and have not been able to return safely to their homes, along with similar proportions of other groups (Roma, Gorani, Croats and all the Jews). Over 150 churches and monasteries have been destroyed, with crosses and icons of Christ attracting particular vandalistic rage, a testament to Kosovo Albanians' supposed secularism and pro-Western orientation.

Hundreds of new Saudi-funded mosques fomenting the extreme Wahhabi doctrine have sprung up. Kosovo is visibly morphing from part of Europe into part of the Middle East. In contrast to Under Secretary Burns' cheerleading, former U.S. Ambassador to the U.N. John Bolton has warned: "Kosovo will be a weak state susceptible to radical Islamist influence from outside the region, with the support from some Albanians, in other words, a potential gate for radicalism to enter Europe." If allowed to consolidate, an independent Kosovo would become a way station toward an anti-American, anti-Israel, anti-Christian "Eurabia."
Rank Paranoia and conspiracism. ANd it does not change the basic fact Serbia no longer has a legitmate claim over Kosovo. If we have to root out Islamic fundamentalist there, fine, we will. That is what our military as for. But that does not justify keeping the Kosovars under Serbian jackboots.

Evil is being called good, and good evil...

Arsenios
More like the Orthodox faith is being conflated with Slavic nationalism. The correct Orthodox response here, in my opinion, would be to get down to work trying to get laws passed allowing Christianity to be preached in Kosovo, start showing the Kosovar's the light of Christ, and eventually establish a Church of Kosovo. Just because a nation is slavic or Orthodox does not mean it is following Christ's path. Its worth pointing out the earliest missionaries here in American spent most of their time defending natives from the predations of Orthodox Russians. And many came to the faith that way. Worth remembering.

Rdr. Arsenios

February 23rd 2008, 02:27 AM

I don't think you know what you're talking about, neither do you understand the history of this conflict. It has nothing to do with religion, but everything to do with power and politics. After the Bosnian wars in the mid 90's Milosevic chose to ethnically cleanse the Albanians from Kosovo in an effort to keep Kosovo as a "greater" Serbia. Kosovo is 90% Albanian and have lived in the region as a majority for decades. When these ethnic cleansings were interrupted by NATO bombings in 1999, Kosovo became a UN protectorate city.

Milosovic was doing some wrong things, yes... But by world standards of dictatorship, they were pretty minor... The ethnic cleansing he was doing was against Islamic terrorists who themselves were trying to drive out the Servs from their own country. He was accused of genocide, and there were NO MASS GRAVES, and no genocide... The problem he was addressing was militant Islamic disruptions... Islam and Christianity had gotten along side by side for centuries there, until the extremists came in and started their campaigns to drive out the Serbian Christians and take over the country that had become mostly Islamic in its population, as you observed... THAT was the cause of action...

And it was our intent to take away the peaceful government of the serbs here and turn it over to the disruptive Islamics so as to have their own countryu in Europe that motivated us to invade Serbia... It had nothing to do with Milosovic and the pursuit of justice... That was the plausible lie that justified our hidden purpose there...

What would the alternative be? Should the UN give control to 10% of the population because the Albanians happen to be secular Muslims? Maybe this decision by the Kosovars was rushed, but it was inevitable. If the Serbs were keen on keeping Kosovo, they shouldn't have attempted to exterminate an entire culture.

You are perpetuating the lie... They did NOT try to exterminate a culture... There were no mass graves... They were there to take out the militants who were disrupting the country, and who now, with the help of the US and NATO, have been destroying Churches, terrorizing and killing and hurting Christians, and driving them all from their homes...

The pattern of takeover is apparent here, as everywhere Islam expands... Emigrate into a country with Islamics, establish a large presence there, and then bring in the outlaws and militants and disrupt the country where you have a large population, and when you win, drive out the non-Islams and establish Islamic Law as the law of the land, and then you have dictatorships like we find wherever Islam is found...

I don't think you understand the oppression the Albanians lived under for a long period of time; Apartheid comes to mind. The KLA is not an islamic terrorist unit, but more of a political movement to oust the Serbian leadership in Kosovo. Religion is not a high priority on either sides, nor is it a true motivator. It is used more as a front or a platform. Serbs were communists for over 50 years, do you think they just all of sudden became religious? And the ethnic Albanians as a whole are secular Muslims. They do not wish to create an Islamic state, nor would any Western country support such an endeavor.

Ther Serbian Church was persecuted for 50 years, practically wiped out, by the Communists... The Albanians emigrated to Kosovo to get away from the intolerable conditions of the Islamic states they came from [Turks, I believe - The ones who committed genicide on the Armenians and other Christians]... The country is rife with crime, slavery, drug dealing, all coming from the Islamics who specialize in it... They are masters at controlling people by fear... If there is no religion involved, the how do you explain the mass destruction of Christian Churches in Albania by Islamics?

Kosovo becoming independent has been talked about well before the war in 1999. Slobodan Milosevic and his regime should be blamed for the loss of Serbian land. Kosovo could not be an "international" city forever, nor could it be given to Serbia because 90% of the population is ethnic Albanian. This decision was inevitable.

Then you believe that populations should determine national boundaries??? And that if the majority are Islamic, and want to persecute and murder and terrorize the non-Islamics and drive them out of the country, then they have the right to do so???

Serbia IS the country containing Kosovo, and it was degenerating into lawlessness and terror, and now, with UN and NATO help, it is doing so even more...

However, I agree that within any country comprised with a majority of Muslims does have the propensity to harbor and encourage terrorist activities. This is concerning because the KLA is a unified political body who could become radicalized under Islam. This does not however represent the population of Kosovo and they should have the right of self-determination. The US and other Western countries will have a strong influence in the future gov't of Kosovo as well as its infrastructure. The gov't has already pledged protection of minority Serbian rights. Kosovo is in no political position to become an Islamic state that sponsors terrorism. Democracy and modernization is their only hope of survival and they realize this. They have pressure from the West to act accordingly for stabilization and they have pressure from Russia and Serbia to act accordingly or face possible military action. So, they should act accordingly.

There are a lot of countries around that have minority populations that constitute a local majority... Do you think they should all be allowed to assert their "self-determination"??? And withdraw from the country and become a law unto themselves??

And the simple fact is that the lawlessness and terror and lack of safety of any Serbs in Albania right now, even with peace keeping forces in place, bodes ill for your vain hope that the Islamics will moderate their radical elements... They have never done so... Militant Islamics go through the rest like a hot knife through soft butter... We have but given them a closer platform...

Did you read the linked article??

Arsenios

Ryokan

February 23rd 2008, 02:40 AM

I'll wait.

Rdr. Arsenios

February 23rd 2008, 02:43 AM

That is ridiculous and rank conspiracism. What we have done is establish a semi-autonomous EU vassal state in the Yugoslavia. The state department's plan, as you have it, was to atone for the sins of Rwanda.
These areas have been always majority albanian. Until SLobadon Milosevic attempted to import Serbs into the area, it was about as it is now. Yes, the attacks on the churches were reprehenisble, but the Serbian brutality towards the Albanians was just as appalling, far more widespread, and committed with the backing of the Serbian state.
The charges were not false. Milosevic had a very specific plan of ethnic cleansing, and the West responded as it should have, as it was obligated too.

In the world of injustices, these were minor... They only served as a pretext to establish the US vassal Islamic state in Albania...

Serbia no longer has a legitmate claim over Kosovo. If we have to root out Islamic fundamentalist there, fine, we will. That is what our military as for. But that does not justify keeping the Kosovars under Serbian jackboots.

They had been living peacefully as neighbors, until Islamic lawlessness and disruptive predations began, and now, it is not safe for Christians to travel the roads of Albania... THAT is what we have created, and when the UN and NATO peacekeepers withdraw, it will get WAY uglier... And by then, the Churches and monasteries will all be destroyed, along with the lives of those killed in the process...

More like the Orthodox faith is being conflated with Slavic nationalism. The correct Orthodox response here, in my opinion, would be to get down to work trying to get laws passed allowing Christianity to be preached in Kosovo, start showing the Kosovar's the light of Christ, and eventually establish a Church of Kosovo. Just because a nation is slavic or Orthodox does not mean it is following Christ's path. Its worth pointing out the earliest missionaries here in American spent most of their time defending natives from the predations of Orthodox Russians. And many came to the faith that way. Worth remembering.

Your dream here is idiotic, because already Christians and all other non-Islamics are being driven out of the region... People get killed on the roads, and are blamed for going on the roads... Everythinhg that we accused the Serbs of doing the Islamic militqants are NOW doing, as they position themselves to run the country by terror... It is not safe to drive on Albanian roads if you are not a Muslim... You cannot live in peace there if you are not a Muslim... This is not rocket science, but a state of war against civilian populations... What do you not understand about that?

Nobody gets it... We have created a criminal vassal state there... And it will get worse, and it is already very, very bad... All you have to do is go there and take a nice drive in the countryside... You could do it before... People lived there in peace... That's over now...

Arsenios

Rdr. Arsenios

February 23rd 2008, 12:50 PM

There is another side to this that wshould be brought into the light...

IF Hispanics become, say, 85 or 90% of the population of California, and desire to live under their own flag, should Spain have the right to invade and bomb the California national guard into submission to their separatist demands [without declaring war]??

OR

In the civil war between the states of the USA, should that outcome have been determined by, say, China, or some other superpower?

I mean, Serbia is a sovereign nation into which the Islamics immigrated, and who received them... Does this mean that Serbia's national borders are to be ignored, because she has been invaded by immigration? And does that apply to the US as well???

Arsenios

SteveF

February 23rd 2008, 01:07 PM

Dear cretin,

Read the following and cure your ignorance. Death toll:

http://shr.aaas.org/kosovo/icty_report.pdf

http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0140673600024041

Mass graves:

http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSL04698505

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A0DE1D7153BF93AA2575AC0A9679C8B63&n=Top/News/World/Countries%20and%20Territories/Serbia/Kosovo

http://citycellar.com/BalkanWitness/graves.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/473017.stm

I don't debate with denialists, so consider this single post as a genorous donation of my time in order to further your education.

Ryokan

February 23rd 2008, 01:51 PM

Objectitron

February 23rd 2008, 02:13 PM

Milosovic was doing some wrong things, yes... But by world standards of dictatorship, they were pretty minor... The ethnic cleansing he was doing was against Islamic terrorists who themselves were trying to drive out the Servs from their own country. He was accused of genocide, and there were NO MASS GRAVES, and no genocide... The problem he was addressing was militant Islamic disruptions... Islam and Christianity had gotten along side by side for centuries there, until the extremists came in and started their campaigns to drive out the Serbian Christians and take over the country that had become mostly Islamic in its population, as you observed... THAT was the cause of action...

I think I know where your hostility is coming from, it is because you are Eastern Orthodox, and you think your faith is the same as the Serbs?

You know nothing about the truth of this conflict and why kosovo was so dear to Serbia. You are stating lies about there not being MASS GRAVES. The Chief Prosecutor for the ICTY presented the court evidence of 529 mass graves of which bodies were exhumed from 195 of them. You are falsifying the truth and you are a propogandist. You are only adding salt to the wounds of the victims of this conflict. Islam and Christianity have nothing to do with this conflict. The Abanian population are not "Islamics", they are culturally Muslim, much in the same way Serbs (or Servs how you call them) are culturally Eastern Orthodox. The Albanian destoryed churches and monasteries out of retaliation for what the Serbs had done them. Anything they did pales in comparison to the ethnic cleansing, forced displacement, rape, looting of homes and businesses, burning of homes, which the Serbian authorities did to the Kosovar Albanians. These Albanians are predominately Muslim by association more than by practice. If you look at Albania, only 30-40 % practice religion. Most are atheists.

Basically, you don't know what you're talking about and need to actually look at the facts of this conflict before you pick sides and try and assert a conspiracy. You have not one shread of evidence that the US is setting up an Islamic state in Kosovo. Here are the reports and facts from the US State Department about this conflict:

http://www.state.gov/www/global/human_rights/kosovoii/homepage.html

http://www.state.gov/www/regions/eur/rpt_990604_ksvo_ethnic.html

And it was our intent to take away the peaceful government of the serbs here and turn it over to the disruptive Islamics so as to have their own countryu in Europe that motivated us to invade Serbia... It had nothing to do with Milosovic and the pursuit of justice... That was the plausible lie that justified our hidden purpose there...

If Kosovo was so peaceful, then why was there a UN Peacekeeping Force (KFOR) running the country? This region hasn't seen peace since the epic battle of Kosovo Polje in 1389.

When did we invade Serbia? We bombed them so they would stop invading Kosovo. It had everything to do with Milosevic and what he was doing in the region. This was no lie, this is what happened. He did the same thing in Bosnia, killing not just Muslims, but Catholic Croats too, but I don't here you running to their cause. Then he started ethnically cleansing Albanians from Kosovo, why wouldn't the International community believe he would not continue?

The Serbs have a somewhat peaceful gov't in Serbia because we ousted a communist/nationalist regime and incorporated a democracy, which is what the majority of the Serb population wanted anyway. To think that Kosovo had a peaceful gov't before the UN stepped in is beyond studpidity.

You are perpetuating the lie... They did NOT try to exterminate a culture... There were no mass graves... They were there to take out the militants who were disrupting the country, and who now, with the help of the US and NATO, have been destroying Churches, terrorizing and killing and hurting Christians, and driving them all from their homes...

Well the facts of the case presented before the ICTY say the opposite. The Serbian authorities were not there to take out the militants, they were there to get rid of the Kosovar Albanian population via mass killings, rape, burning homes and businesses, etc. The majority of the victims were innocent civilians (including women and children), not the UCK (KLA). These were the Orthodox Christians you keep speaking highly of who were committing these atrocities. The evidence is so vast, including witness testimonies, mass graves, and Serbian confessions, there is no doubt that this happened. I suppose you would want to deny the Holocaust too?

The pattern of takeover is apparent here, as everywhere Islam expands... Emigrate into a country with Islamics, establish a large presence there, and then bring in the outlaws and militants and disrupt the country where you have a large population, and when you win, drive out the non-Islams and establish Islamic Law as the law of the land, and then you have dictatorships like we find wherever Islam is found...

Where is your evidence that this is taking place. They are implementing a democracy, not a theocracy in Kosovo. They would be more likely to bring in the "outlaws" if they continued to not have a country and be ruled by the Serbs in an effort to oust Serbian leadership. Why do you think the KLA was created?

In Bosnia, 5 years before the NATO bombings, the Muslims were being slaughtered by Bosnian Serbs. So what happened in an effort become a sovereign nation? They called in the Mujahadeen to help them fight. Now the Mujahadeen have stayed an become Bosnian citizens, most did it illegaly. The Muslims living Bosnia before were predominately atheist, but when the Mujahadeen arrived many became radicalized. That would be a possiblity in Kosovo if they were not granted their independence and Serbia chose to start a war over Kosovo. The Muslims living in an independent democracy have no reason to become radicalized, but some still will. Just like in the US we will have pockets of radical Muslims, but it doesn't characterize our country.

I think you assume every Muslim is one and the same, and they are all militant. This just isn't true. However, I will agree that within the tenets of Islam, exists an extremism and when catalyzed could become dangerous. However, having a stable and democratic country is the best way to combat this type of extremism, and that is what we have now in the newly formed Kosovo.

Ther Serbian Church was persecuted for 50 years, practically wiped out, by the Communists... The Albanians emigrated to Kosovo to get away from the intolerable conditions of the Islamic states they came from [Turks, I believe - The ones who committed genicide on the Armenians and other Christians]... The country is rife with crime, slavery, drug dealing, all coming from the Islamics who specialize in it... They are masters at controlling people by fear... If there is no religion involved, the how do you explain the mass destruction of Christian Churches in Albania by Islamics?

This is nonsense. The Albanians did not leave Albania because persecution. There is a remnant of Islamic influence from when the Ottomons ruled the area, much in the same way a remnant in Bosnia existed during rule of Tito in Yugoslavia. However, they were secularized. They were communists until 1991.

Do you know where Armenia is located on a map? It has absolutely nothing to do with Albainia. Turks massacred the Armenians in different genocides between 1915-1917. What does this have to do with Albania other than both countries start with the letter "A". The Turks did not commit genocide against the Albanians. The Albanians won their independence in 1913 from the Ottoman Empire with a peaceful demonstration of consolidarity.

Organized crime is not a characteristic of Islamic extremism, actually most Islamic terrorist organizion and groups would abhor this type of behavior, especially the Taliban who destroyed the poppy fields in Afghanistan to destroy the drug trade. Organized crime is a characteristic of a very secular society.

They destroyed the churches because that was the best way to retaliate, the Orthodox churches represents the Serbian establishment as a whole. If they were trying to make a statement against the Serbs, why wouldn't they start with the churches?

Then you believe that populations should determine national boundaries??? And that if the majority are Islamic, and want to persecute and murder and terrorize the non-Islamics and drive them out of the country, then they have the right to do so???

Serbia IS the country containing Kosovo, and it was degenerating into lawlessness and terror, and now, with UN and NATO help, it is doing so even more...

Who is driving who out? The Kosovar Albanians represent 90% of the population, and Kosovo was a UN protectorate city where both he President and Prime Minister were Albanian. Even pocket of Serbs who have always lived in Kosovo wanted independence. What would the alternative be? Make the 90% become refugees in other countries and then hand over Kosovo to less than 10% of the population, the population whose gov't ethnically cleansed thousands of Albanians. How would this not create a war? Most Islamic countries have been pretty silent about the whole situation, but I guarantee you they would pick sides then and the Islamic extremists throughout the world would mobilize for the cause of Albanians. By creating an independent state, we have avoided this.

Historically speaking, Kosovo has been a part of Serbia for hundreds of years, but when Milosevic decided to ethnically cleanse the majority living in the area, he and Serbia lost Kosovo to the International Community. There is a possiblity for peace and a stable Kosovo if they rule democratically and protect Serbian minority rights. They have no incentive to act in any other way, nor have they shown a propensity to do so. Czechoslavakia was able to split into the Czech Republic and Slovakia. Hopefully, Kosovo will be able to do the same thing.

There are a lot of countries around that have minority populations that constitute a local majority... Do you think they should all be allowed to assert their "self-determination"??? And withdraw from the country and become a law unto themselves??

We are talking about Kosovo, which is 1/3 the size of Belgium. 90% of the population are ethnic Albanians. One way or another they were going to assert their independence. It is not as if the Albanians just showed up one day in Kosovo, they have been living there forever, even before Tito's reign. Montenegro, which was a part of Serbia for decades, also recently became independent. I suppose if they were Muslim, you would have a problem with that as well.

And the simple fact is that the lawlessness and terror and lack of safety of any Serbs in Albania right now, even with peace keeping forces in place, bodes ill for your vain hope that the Islamics will moderate their radical elements... They have never done so... Militant Islamics go through the rest like a hot knife through soft butter... We have but given them a closer platform...

They are not radicalized. Burning a few churches does not make you radicalized. It makes you pissed off for how you have been treated over the years. Kidnapping people and chopping off their heads while reading the Koran would make you radicalized, or walking into a crowded area and shouting Allahu Akbar and then blowing yourself up along with dozens of innocent people would make you radicalized. These elements do not exist at this point in Albania, and to assert that they do is fallicious. If these elements begin to bloom they will be dealt with swiftly, most likely by the democratic gov't which will be run by the "Islamics".

Did you read the linked article??

I read it first thing before I responded to your post

I am with you in that we need to root out Islamic terrorists throughout the world. However, Kosovo is not where they are congregating. The best way to not let them gather there is for Kosovo to have a stable democratic gov't where minority rights are respected. Terrorists love chaos and anarchy, stability is something they can't deal with. An idependent Kosovo was always the end game of the International Community, it was never going to be returned to Serbia. It was just a matter of when. The more modernized or westernized Kosovo can become, the more liklihood of its success. Having UN peacekeepers on the ground only keeps the peace, it doesn't resolve the problems or evolve gov'ts. The Kosovars are responsible for this endeavor, and they should be given the opportunity to do so. This is why the US gov't and the EU support an independent Kosovo.

Why would we want to create an Islamic state?

Darth Executor

February 23rd 2008, 04:23 PM

Like usual I defer from EE Orthodox majority in matter of local politics and will just say that the Serbs are Russian manipulated dogs who could use a kick in the mouth. I can't even figure out why so many countries are supporting the Serbs with Russia behind them considering how much Russia is hated in East Europe. I don't think it's an exaggeration to state that a good majority of its population (especially older people) would love nothing more than to see Russia annihilated.

Rdr. Arsenios

February 23rd 2008, 05:05 PM

I think I know where your hostility is coming from, it is because you are Eastern Orthodox, and you think your faith is the same as the Serbs?

Milosovic was a dictator like other dictators... And ruled with an authoritarian hand, yet this whole thing has played out into the hands of Islam gaining another country... In Europe...

I am with you in that we need to root out Islamic terrorists throughout the world. However, Kosovo is not where they are congregating. The best way to not let them gather there is for Kosovo to have a stable democratic gov't where minority rights are respected. Terrorists love chaos and anarchy, stability is something they can't deal with. An idependent Kosovo was always the end game of the International Community, it was never going to be returned to Serbia. It was just a matter of when. The more modernized or westernized Kosovo can become, the more liklihood of its success. Having UN peacekeepers on the ground only keeps the peace, it doesn't resolve the problems or evolve gov'ts. The Kosovars are responsible for this endeavor, and they should be given the opportunity to do so. This is why the US gov't and the EU support an independent Kosovo.

Why would we want to create an Islamic state?

THAT is the big question... I have no idea... It DOES begin the process of breaking down national borders, where perhaps long range we will find what you expect, where Islamic extremists do funnel terror into Europe and then we WILL invade again and suppress them, and thus give us a presence in our absence there...

You are right that I am unfamiliar with the mapping of the area, and the borders and names involved... the name Yugoslavia, rather than Serbia, seems odd, and the fact that it is the Orthodox peoples that are under Islamic expansionist fire seems very suspect to me... All that is true...

But to say that reverse ethnic cleansing is excusable, and the persecution and killing of civilian minorities is excusable, bu way of retaliation, is simply wrong... The so-called mass graves in the articles linked above are actually part of the propaganda campaign of 1999, and are easily accounted for as war casualties... The victims are men of soldierly age, dressed as civilians... The fact remains that there was NO GENOCIDE... Those graves do not exist... We went there to find them, and did not... All we found was old bones 'very close' to graveyards...

Let me give you a quote from a very conservative writer looking at this matter very recently:

http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=516

Does Balkanization Beckon Anew?

by Patrick J. Buchanan

In the spring of 1999, the United States bombed Serbia for 78 days to force its army out of that nation’s cradle province of Kosovo. The Serbs were fighting Albanian separatists of the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA). And we had no more right to bomb Belgrade than the Royal Navy would have had to bombard New York in our Civil War.

We bombed Serbia, we were told, to stop the genocide in Kosovo. But there was no genocide. This was propaganda. The United Nations’ final casualty count of Serbs and Albanians in Slobodan Milosevic’s war did not add up to 1 percent of the dead in Mr. Lincoln’s war.

Albanians did flee in the tens of thousands during the war. But since that war’s end, the Serbs of Kosovo have seen their churches and monasteries smashed and vandalized and have been ethnically cleansed in the scores of thousands from their ancestral province. In the exodus they have lost everything. The remaining Serb population of 120,000 is largely confined to enclaves guarded by NATO troops.

This is the sad reality, and the goal of Islamicists, to drive out the natives from their homelands and take over the country where they have become a majority... It has been going on for 1400 years in the Middle East, and here they have been handed a victory... Even the Mosques being erected are the militant ones, that article, I think it is, stated... Your expectation that anyone other than terrorists are going to call the shots in the government there, even if they act moderately, is simply wishful thinking... The non-Muslims are already enclaving themselves for protection from roving gangs of KLA thugs... That is the reality...

Rdr. Arsenios

February 23rd 2008, 05:08 PM

Ryokan

February 23rd 2008, 05:43 PM

Quoting propaganda studies and press releases from 1999 won't cut it here...

You can try again...

There was NO GENOCIDE...

There WAS a civil war...

We DID intervene in it...

Why all the hostility??? You sound like you wake up mad...

Arsenios
George, I do not understand how you can call that propaganda on the one and then offer a PAT BUCHANAN, (as biased, propagandizing, racist, isolationist, paraniod beer hall "conservative" as has ever lived) OP ED PIECE to defend your side. WHat respectable media investigations have uncovered evidence of this conspiracy, George? Of the brutalizing of Kosovar Serbs, even? Where is the evidence, not in op ed pieces but as evidence.
You are, unfortunately,the one coming off as hostile. I have never been anything but polite to you and you blasted me a few posts ago, you refuse to address any arguements, and simply restate yourself over and over. I do not think you are very informed in about this issue. You are normally a smart guy and your faith and beard are an inspiration but I think you, and whoever has influenced you on this issue, are deeply misinformed.

Rdr. Arsenios

February 24th 2008, 02:02 AM

George, I do not understand how you can call that propaganda on the one and then offer a PAT BUCHANAN, (as biased, propagandizing, racist, isolationist, paraniod beer hall "conservative" as has ever lived) OP ED PIECE to defend your side. WHat respectable media investigations have uncovered evidence of this conspiracy, George? Of the brutalizing of Kosovar Serbs, even? Where is the evidence, not in op ed pieces but as evidence.
You are, unfortunately,the one coming off as hostile. I have never been anything but polite to you and you blasted me a few posts ago, you refuse to address any arguements, and simply restate yourself over and over. I do not think you are very informed in about this issue. You are normally a smart guy and your faith and beard are an inspiration but I think you, and whoever has influenced you on this issue, are deeply misinformed.

I wasn't saying you sounded mad, my brother... I was referring to this:

Originally posted by SteveF
Dear cretin,

Read the following and cure your ignorance.

I don't debate with denialists, so consider this single post as a genorous donation of my time in order to further your education.

I will certainly confess to great ignorance in this area, yet all those articles are 1999, and were during the time when all the reporters were expecting to find mass graves of genocide victims, and instead simply found many scattered [some 600 sites, many near cemetaries] gravesites of battle casualties... At that point, because our President Clinton ws the one orchestrating the war there I should think, when no evidence of genocide was forthcoming, the whole matter merely faded from view... Had the President been Republican, the whole issue would have been in the headlines for months... And had there been mass genocide graves found, there would have been mass headlines...

I am no fan of Milosovic at all... But by the standards of dictators in the world, he was pretty garden variety, and yes, he was conducting the war badly, and needed ousting... He was a Communist holdover and deserved richly what he got... But there was no genocide... War crimes, most assurredly, but no genocide...

Here's another site: http://www.aeronautics.ru/nws001/emperorsclothes01.htm

PABLO ORDAZ, Madrid

Spanish police and forensic experts have not found proof of Genocide in the North of Kosovo. Prisoners [in the prison in] Istok were shot after the bombardment of NATO.

Crimes of War - yes, Genocide - no. This was definitely shown yesterday by the group of Spanish experts formed by officials from the Scientific Police and Civilian Forensics that has just returned from Istok, the Zone in the North of Kosovo under the control of the Legion. {Spanish Legion? - EC} 187 cadavers found and analyzed in 9 villages were buried in individual graves, oriented for the most part toward Mecca out of respect for the religious beliefs of the Albanian Kosovars and without sign of torture. "There were no mass graves. For the most part the Serbs are not as bad as they have been painted," reflected the forensic official Emilio Pйrez Pujo.

That was not the only irony. Also questioned were the successive counts that are being offered by the "allies" on the tragedy of Kosovo. "I have been reading the data from UN said Pйrez Pujol, Director of the Forensic Anatomical Institute of Cartagena. "And they began with 44,000 deaths. Then they lowered it to 22,000. And now they're going with 11,000. I look forward to seeing what the final count will really be." The Spanish Mission which should now submit a report to the International War Crimes Tribunal in The Hague, left from Madrid in the beginning of the month of the August with the feeling that they were going on a road to hell. "They told us that we were going to the worst zone of Kosovo. That we should prepare ourselves to perform more than 2000 autopsies. That we would have to work until the end of November. The result is very different. We only found 187 cadavers and now we are going to return," explained the chief inspector, Juan Lуpez Palafox, responsible for the Office of Anthropology and Scientific Police.

The forensic people, as well as the police, applied their experience in Rwanda in order to determine what occurred in Kosovo at least in that section assigned to the Spanish detachment and they were not able to find evidence of genocide.

"In the former Yugoslavia," said Lуpez Palafox, "crimes were committed, some no doubt horrible, but they derived from the war. In Rwanda we saw 450 corpses of women and children, one on top of another, all with their heads broken open." The Chief Inspector added that in Kosovo, on the contrary, they had found many isolated corpses. "It gives the impression that the Serbs gave a choice to the families to leave their homes. If some member of the clan, for whatever reason, decided to remain, upon returning they were found dead from a shot or by whatever other method." {our emphasis}

The genocide reports were manufactured...

Arsenios

Rdr. Arsenios

February 24th 2008, 09:29 PM

I had a conversation with a guy who did not know I was doing thie thread, and he told me a little of what happened there... Albania is a Muslim terrorist nation, trafficding in the usual criminal enterprises that radical Islamics traffic in, people, drugs, and extortion... But they do not drink liquor, and really detest the infidels who do... So what they had begun to do, is slip over into Kosovo at night, and spot the places that were open at night, bars, dance halls, businesses, etc, that were Serbian, and they would walk in, lob grenades, and close the doors and hold them closed until the grenades went off, and then get back in their cars and leave...

And they were doing the same kinds of things for all manner of actions by the Orthodox Christian Serbs there of which they disapproved... The idea was to stir up trouble by murder and terror, and when Milosovic learned of it, he brought an army together to get rid of these killers and terrorizers, for this is how Islam spreads itself geographically... They first emigrate, and then disrupt, and then take over, and the process can last several hundred years as the stranglehold of terror slowly turns a country over to criminal elements acting with religious Islamic sanction...

Anbd not the terrorists who were doing this in the first place are gaining control of the country under international auspices... And the creation of a terrorist Kosovo is now a western fait-accompli... Becaus what it amounts to is an exspansion of the terrorist government of Albania into sovereign Servian soil, indeed into where Serbia first birthed at the beginning of her existence... And it is the destruction of the Orthodox Churches, some a thousand years old and rich in history and iconographic art and holy practice of the Faith, and places of pilgrimages for Serbians for many centuries, and the driving out of the Serbian residents, that clearly marks the terrorist foundation of the takeover...

Christians and Islamics lived side by side in peace until the radicals began entering from Albania and disrupting things, and with the majority population being Islamic in faith, they figured they had a good chance of a takeover... And I suspect that they did so with the encouragement of secret missions from our Clinton State Department...

The "TERRIBLE BURDEN" of living under Serbian Christian or Communist rule was simply the burden of living alongside Christians who were there before the Islamics who emigrated to there... We are demonizing Serbia... Who will we demonize when a dirty nuclear device is detonated in New York City by the same Islamic fundamentalists? Peace loving Moslims are but one prong of the invasion that takes over countries and turns them into Sharia Law Islamic totalitarian and terrorist dictatorships...

That is what Serbia was confronting, however well or ill, and we chose the part of the criminal Islamic enterprisers and expansionists, and helped them. thanks to our bombs, to take over yet another section of turf for the Islamic invasion of the west...

And nobody gets it, and we are provided with 1999 propaganda press releases, and when confronted with the truth, attack the messengers...

Arsenios

Rdr. Arsenios

February 26th 2008, 01:06 PM

Here is another article by a conservative American from her blog site at:

http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/blog/category/serbia/

Ending the Balkan Quagmire at American Thinker
American Thinker | Julia Gorin | July 7, 2007

For the past eight years, I’ve been in a lonely place politically. I don’t mean the kind of lonely that conservatives generally find themselves in. I’m talking about utter desolation, for there are just as few conservatives as liberals where I’ve been. One of the only non-Serbian Americans to do so, I watched with steady interest for the better part of a decade the clockwork predictability of the fallout from our forgotten Kosovo intervention, a bombing campaign against an emerging post-Communist democracy rooted in Judeo-Christian values–on behalf of tribalistic, blood-code-following nominal Muslims claiming oppression and no less than genocide and ethnic cleansing...

I share her sentiment that few either conservatives or liberals seem to even have a clue as to what is going on in the Balkans... This is a classic good vs evil conflict, and the USA is solidly on the side of evil and suppressing the good... And for the life of me, I can see no good in it whatsoever... And all that comes from one of the posters here is a sneering and seething contempt for my ignorance... I have looked at the maps now, finally... But it does not take maps to understand this hideous takeover...

Arsenios

Rdr. Arsenios

February 28th 2008, 02:01 AM

Video showing destruction of Christian Church by Albanian bigots...

What do you think would be the reaction IF a mosque had this happen to it? Notice there was NO destruction of mosques in the military actions of the Serbs against Albanian terrorists murdering Kosovo civilians...

I do not know how many have seen this tragic video on YouTube showing
the destruction of an Orthodox Church in Kosovo by Albanians right
under the nose of KFOR.

For some reason, this was not shown on CNN or BBC. . .

There are two versions:

Short, edited version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pg-bYIqgaE&feature=related

Long version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-lJy4Js8j4&feature=related

This makes one's heart break.

Arsenios