Alcohol and Christianity

[Tundrawolf]

Hello,

I have heard a lot discussed about alcohol and Christianity. Some people even saying that Jesus didn't turn water into wine, but rather water into grape juice.. I have also heard that had that family who was having a wedding when Jesus was attending had run out of wine-they could literally have been sued by the guests!

Obviously, alcoholism is discussed in the Bible. ("Wine is a mocker, strong drink is a brawler...")

What do you think about it?

[Philosophickle]

I think alcohol can be good fun, but like everything else self-control is needed.

[Glenn P]

I think grape juice is "wine" in the biblical sense (the words can be kinda broader than our word for wine), but there's no way Jesus would have gotten away with turning the water into unfermented grape juice. Heck, the host even called it the best wine.

[Tundrawolf]

Good points. I tend to agree with both. Some people have had such an awful time with drunks in their lives that they shun even the idea of drinking being condoned by God.

[Little Shepherd]

Applebee's has this giant "red apple sangria" drink that I just found out about today(I almost never look at drink menus since I don't like alcohol in general). It was tempting enough that I really wanted to drink some, but I had to go to work later so I decided to pass. Maybe I'll get one of my family members to go there with me sometime so I can "booze it up." I make no promises. There's a long-standing precedent that points to my probably not liking it. But it's worth a shot, especially when it just sounds so incredibly yummy.

[Philosophickle]

Applebee's has this giant "red apple sangria" drink that I just found out about today(I almost never look at drink menus since I don't like alcohol in general). It was tempting enough that I really wanted to drink some, but I had to go to work later so I decided to pass. Maybe I'll get one of my family members to go there with me sometime so I can "booze it up." I make no promises. There's a long-standing precedent that points to my probably not liking it. But it's worth a shot, especially when it just sounds so incredibly yummy.

Dude. Sam Adams Boston Lager. Makes me happy.

[John Goddard]

Hello,

I have heard a lot discussed about alcohol and Christianity. Some people even saying that Jesus didn't turn water into wine, but rather water into grape juice.. I have also heard that had that family who was having a wedding when Jesus was attending had run out of wine-they could literally have been sued by the guests!

Obviously, alcoholism is discussed in the Bible. ("Wine is a mocker, strong drink is a brawler...")

What do you think about it?

There is possibility he caused them all to believe they were drinking wine when it was just water, or maybe grape juice.

[Philosophickle]

There is possibility he caused them all to believe they were drinking wine when it was just water, or maybe grape juice.

Why would he do that? "It tastes, smells, and looks like wine but it is sugar water"? C'mon.

[Glenn P]

There is possibility he caused them all to believe they were drinking wine when it was just water, or maybe grape juice.That would be a hopeless explanation if you think drinking alcohol is a sin. Would he hypnotize people so they could enjoy the sensation of adultery without actually doing it?

[Tundrawolf]

There is possibility he caused them all to believe they were drinking wine when it was just water, or maybe grape juice.

Interesting!!

God is a gentlemen, and will never do anything against your will. Making people imagine they are even slightly inebriated for the sake of making them not be in sin is far fetched, but an interesting proposition, nonetheless!!

Good theory! I like it!

[Tundrawolf]

I don't mean to hijack my own thread-but have any of you ever tried Spaten Optimator? It is hard to find but oh so worth it.

[Philosophickle]

Sounds like a transformer.

[Tundrawolf]

LOL!! It's just good German beer. Really good German Beer. I find that anything from Spaten tends to be really good stuff. Hard to find, though.

[John Goddard]

That would be a hopeless explanation if you think drinking alcohol is a sin. Would he hypnotize people so they could enjoy the sensation of adultery without actually doing it?

I think alcohol is bad if there is a threat of using it to get drunk. And I don't know many people who drink and have never gotten drunk at least once in their lives. So for most people alcohol is a threat and a bad thing. The NT is also clearly against drunkenness.

Given that, perhaps all they needed was a taste of it and were satisfied without ever wanting to drink more and get drunk.

John 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:

[MrManNo1]

I think alcohol is bad if there is a threat of using it to get drunk.

There is a threat of getting into a car crash and killing people. There is a threat of getting high by using aerosol cans. There is a threat of falling onto a pencil and stabbing your eye out. Does that mean we shouldn't use these things? No, it means we should learn how to be responsible and use things in a way that won't harm us or others. There is no lasting, severe damage from having a beer every once in awhile, and some people can even put a few away before it has any dangerous effects. It's all about learning what your limits are, and making sure not to go past them.


And I don't know many people who drink and have never gotten drunk at least once in their lives.

Well, now you've met one more: Hi, I'm Eric.


So for most people alcohol is a threat and a bad thing. The NT is also clearly against drunkenness.

The New Testament is clearly against overindulgence. Getting a little tipsy once in awhile isn't bad. Becoming "drunken" is. That doesn't mean that you should throw out the baby with the bathwater. Some parts are ok (and drinking wine has even been shown to have health benefits), so you shouldn't immediately dismiss the good parts because some people go too far with the bad parts.


Given that, perhaps all they needed was a taste of it and were satisfied without ever wanting to drink more and get drunk.

Are you suggesting that there was a possibility that these people had never drank alcohol before the day that Jesus turned water into wine? Are you suggesting that these people would not drink again? Are you suggesting that Jesus Christ, God Incarnate, would deceive people into drinking something that He knew was sinful? There are a few more notions that this (and your original statement) imply. However, most go along with the ideas that either the people were being deceived by the Lord of all creation (1 Corinthians 14:33), the people were saints regarding alcohol up until that point, or both.


John 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:

I'm quite sure that this passage was not meant to refer to the drinking of alcohol. This is just bad exegesis. Do you have any reason why we should accept it as evidence that Jesus does not want us to drink?

Overall, I see no reason to think that alcohol is sinful. No verse specifically states that alcohol is bad (only that drukenness is a state that one should avoid). In addition, there are numerous health benefits that greatly outweigh the possible damage caused, assuming one is a responsible adult about it. And, I see more than sufficient examples from the Bible that cast wine in a positive light (I Timothy 5:23, Ecclesiastes 10:19 to name a few).

[John Goddard]

There is a threat of getting into a car crash and killing people. There is a threat of getting high by using aerosol cans. There is a threat of falling onto a pencil and stabbing your eye out. Does that mean we shouldn't use these things? No, it means we should learn how to be responsible and use things in a way that won't harm us or others. There is no lasting, severe damage from having a beer every once in awhile, and some people can even put a few away before it has any dangerous effects. It's all about learning what your limits are, and making sure not to go past them.

Not everyone can do that before getting drunk or addicted to it. So if you know for sure alcohol will never be a problem for you, then you can say for sure alcohol is ok for you. Otherwise it's a gamble and unnecessary risk, isn't it?


The New Testament is clearly against overindulgence. Getting a little tipsy once in awhile isn't bad. Becoming "drunken" is. That doesn't mean that you should throw out the baby with the bathwater. Some parts are ok (and drinking wine has even been shown to have health benefits), so you shouldn't immediately dismiss the good parts because some people go too far with the bad parts.

Isn't getting tipsy a sign you've had too much, since it affects your thinking?


Are you suggesting that there was a possibility that these people had never drank alcohol before the day that Jesus turned water into wine? Are you suggesting that these people would not drink again? Are you suggesting that Jesus Christ, God Incarnate, would deceive people into drinking something that He knew was sinful? There are a few more notions that this (and your original statement) imply. However, most go along with the ideas that either the people were being deceived by the Lord of all creation (1 Corinthians 14:33), the people were saints regarding alcohol up until that point, or both.

How do you know they didn't drink it and receive the Holy Spirit which is what the wine of the New Covenant promises, and thus had no desire to get drunk ever again, only to seek God?


I'm quite sure that this passage was not meant to refer to the drinking of alcohol. This is just bad exegesis. Do you have any reason why we should accept it as evidence that Jesus does not want us to drink?

The lady at the well is about regular water as opposed to the Water of Life which is found in God. Which is also the same as the wine and blood of the New Covenant. Why do you say it is bad when the only reason Jesus was here on earth was to turn water into wine, and wine into blood, and blood into the River of Life we can drink from to live forever?


Overall, I see no reason to think that alcohol is sinful. No verse specifically states that alcohol is bad (only that drukenness is a state that one should avoid). In addition, there are numerous health benefits that greatly outweigh the possible damage caused, assuming one is a responsible adult about it. And, I see more than sufficient examples from the Bible that cast wine in a positive light (I Timothy 5:23, Ecclesiastes 10:19 to name a few).

It's still a gamble if you can't be sure it will never be a problem for you, as I said.

[MrManNo1]

Not everyone can do that before getting drunk or addicted to it. So if you know for sure alcohol will never be a problem for you, then you can say for sure alcohol is ok for you. Otherwise it's a gamble and unnecessary risk, isn't it?

Isn't faith in Jesus Christ a gamble? What do we have or do that isn't a gamble? Are you saying that everything that you have obtained in your life, there was no risk involved? Sure, you didn't need to take that risk, but you did to make your life better. It has been scientifically "proven" that wine increases your health. It is also relaxing and can be good to calm down after a stressful day. But, you have to understand that there are risks, and you have to be willing to overcome those risks should they present themselves.

If you truly wish to be like Christ, you should be able to control your addictive urges, at least enough so that you don't harm yourself.


Isn't getting tipsy a sign you've had too much, since it affects your thinking?

Getting tipsy is when you have had just enough to have a euphoric feeling, and not enough to lose your mental facilities. What is wrong with that?


How do you know they didn't drink it and receive the Holy Spirit which is what the wine of the New Covenant promises, and thus had no desire to get drunk ever again, only to seek God?

How do you know that nobody in the wedding party was already a believer in Christ? Clearly they already had enough faith to do what He asked (in pouring out the water and bringing it to the chief waiter).


The lady at the well is about regular water as opposed to the Water of Life which is found in God. Which is also the same as the wine and blood of the New Covenant. Why do you say it is bad when the only reason Jesus was here on earth was to turn water into wine, and wine into blood, and blood into the River of Life we can drink from to live forever?

Because what Jesus said was symbolic, and not meant to be taken as evidence that we should not drink alcohol. Unless you have contextual evidence that Jesus was also referring to abstinence from alcohol, it's bad exegesis.


It's still a gamble if you can't be sure it will never be a problem for you, as I said.

And, as I said, everything in life is a gamble. Should you not drink water because you might suffer from water intoxication? Should you not eat chicken because you might enjoy it, and eat yourself to death? Should you not read because you might read too much and damage your eyes? It's a frivolous argument, and one that should not even be considered, unless one is simply arguing for the sake of argument.

[John Goddard]

Isn't faith in Jesus Christ a gamble? What do we have or do that isn't a gamble? Are you saying that everything that you have obtained in your life, there was no risk involved? Sure, you didn't need to take that risk, but you did to make your life better. It has been scientifically "proven" that wine increases your health. It is also relaxing and can be good to calm down after a stressful day. But, you have to understand that there are risks, and you have to be willing to overcome those risks should they present themselves.

How can faith in Jesus put you in rehab or give you cirrhosis?


If you truly wish to be like Christ, you should be able to control your addictive urges, at least enough so that you don't harm yourself.

If you don't want to get burned, don't play with fire.

Matthew 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.


Getting tipsy is when you have had just enough to have a euphoric feeling, and not enough to lose your mental facilities. What is wrong with that?

Does real euphoria come from a drink? Or is it an illusion?

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.


How do you know that nobody in the wedding party was already a believer in Christ? Clearly they already had enough faith to do what He asked (in pouring out the water and bringing it to the chief waiter).

His disciples were there, but this was his first public miracle, according to the text. Mary told the servants to do what Jesus said, so it's not clear they had faith in anything, just following orders as servants.


Because what Jesus said was symbolic, and not meant to be taken as evidence that we should not drink alcohol. Unless you have contextual evidence that Jesus was also referring to abstinence from alcohol, it's bad exegesis.

I'm saying we don't have proof that he produced by miracle any fermented wine since it would be contradictory to forbid drunkenness then give people wine they could get drunk with. So his miracle at the wedding is most reasonably seen as symbolism relating to water/wine/blood/life as I said.


And, as I said, everything in life is a gamble. Should you not drink water because you might suffer from water intoxication? Should you not eat chicken because you might enjoy it, and eat yourself to death? Should you not read because you might read too much and damage your eyes? It's a frivolous argument, and one that should not even be considered, unless one is simply arguing for the sake of argument.

You'll die without food and water. Reading God's Word is the knowing the bread of life.

You can probably live without a beer.

[John Goddard]

I guess I'm not supposed to post Christianity 201 or in here since I'm not orthodox Christian, so if I don't reply that's why. Thanks.

[timspong]

I think the question of alcohol has just as much to do with culture as with religion.

Being a Celt from Cornwall in the UK I was brought up on alcohol. It has the same status in our culture as the scotts, welsh and Irish etc.

I have absolutely no problem with mixing alcohol with Christianity as long as you don't get drunk. I seldom drink enough to achieve a hangover.

However, I live in Nigeria which has a somewhat different cultural view of alcohol so it is sometimes a big contentious issue. So I often have to invoke 1co 8.

1 Co 8:13
Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.

[Tundrawolf]

How can faith in Jesus put you in rehab or give you cirrhosis?

Actually, the same can be said of water and food. Someone died recently of drinking too much water on a radio show. If you want to get absurd, then I have heard about new homes expelling gasses that can seriously make you ill, from the building materials-sometimes years after they are built. When you fuel up your car, you can almost always smell gas. There are so many chemicals in fuel that any one singled out and ingested would kill you. Yet here you are-inhaling the vapors. Should we not eat, drink, drive or live in new homes?


If you don't want to get burned, don't play with fire.

If you don't want to die in a automobile accident or get sick from owning a new home, live in a box and walk to work. :)


Matthew 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

I do not feel this is an accurate parallel at all.


Does real euphoria come from a drink? Or is it an illusion?

Do we exist??


Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Yes, but nobody is saying you HAVE to drink to fellowship with God.


His disciples were there, but this was his first public miracle, according to the text. Mary told the servants to do what Jesus said, so it's not clear they had faith in anything, just following orders as servants.

Well, let's look at it this way. Why would have the translators translated it wine, and not grape juice?


I'm saying we don't have proof that he produced by miracle any fermented wine since it would be contradictory to forbid drunkenness then give people wine they could get drunk with. So his miracle at the wedding is most reasonably seen as symbolism relating to water/wine/blood/life as I said.

I think the Bible included the man commenting that they saved best WINE for last-since wine was actually a tradition at weddings. Further, I do not believe God forbade drinking in the Old Testament-so why the reservation, now that we have freedom in Christ?


You'll die without food and water. Reading God's Word is the knowing the bread of life.

Yes, very true. However, Jesus came that we could have life, and have it more abundantly. Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there also is freedom. I think a lot of things can add to the quality of life-which is actually one major thing Jesus did when He died for us. Adding to the quality of life was a major part of it. Look at America-a country founded essentially on God. Look at the freedom and prosperity we enjoy.


You can probably live without a beer.

Yes, and most of us can probably live without a car or a new home. Some clothes contain chemicals that can make you ill, so maybe anything but burlap, too. See what I mean? Drunkenness is a fleshly thing, too. We are NOT to walk by the flesh, right?

[Teallaura]

Boys, John is correct - he's not allowed to play here. We can split that part of the discussion off and put it somewhere that John is allowed to post if you like.

[MrManNo1]

Boys, John is correct - he's not allowed to play here. We can split that part of the discussion off and put it somewhere that John is allowed to post if you like.

I've already made my points. I feel I'm done. If it should be moved, you should move it. Whatever the rules say.

[surmux]

i don't drink simply because i have the one-is-never-enough mentality

[nomad]

just a couple minor side points:

- the passover meal includes wine, and about 5 1/2 glasses of it. That's probably enough to get just about anyone drunk (even though that's over the course of 2-3 hours), probably even me (i've never had more than two glasses).

- There is a story that one of the Great Khans of the Mongols was attracted to christianity because of this some - the Muslims don't allow alcohol (well, not grape juice alcohol anyways), the Buddhists discourage it, but the Christians actually use it in their worship services! :)

- Even if you don't drink it, it's excellent to cook with - i mean, you can't have chicken marsala without the marsala, after all....

[Jedidiah]

There is possibility he caused them all to believe they were drinking wine when it was just water, or maybe grape juice.

My Lord is not a liar.

[Tangocat]

I don't think that alcohol is completely a bad thing. I think that as with anything we are to be self-controlled. If there is any reason though that we find we are not able to control ourselves then we should abstain from it altogether. The Bible does forbid drunkeness. How can we be in control of our thoughts and our inhibitions if we do not control ourselves with alcoholic drinks.

Then there is another very important matter to consider. As representatives of the Most High God are we not to make sure that we ourselves are never to be a stumbling block to another and cause them to fall. If we are here to minister to and to take care of our brethren then we must be very careful if we have a brother or sister in Christ that may have a drinking problem.

For this reason I rarely ever drink. I maybe have the occasional glass of wine maybe once or twice a year and I've taught my children to be very responsible when it comes to alcohol as well. I think a good rule of thumb is to just always remember who we are representing at all times.

[Obsidian]

Marcion condemned wine. Marcion was a heretic. That's good enough for me to know that wine is a blessing.

And along with "drunkeness," the Bible also condemns various states of mind (such as lust), which in general are bad but which sometimes can be good (for example, if you want to create new humans). I think it's stupid to look at the NT as some new, really hard-to-follow legal code. It wasn't meant to be a legal code. It was meant to be a bunch of letters to strengthen and build up the church.

Like someone mentioned, of course, the OT has some harsh words of its own against drunkeness. But it doesn't say you should stop drinking altogether. In fact, Proverbs says that in contrast to kings, poor people should get drunk, and forget their sorrows (Proverbs 31).

[Tangocat]

And along with "drunkeness," the Bible also condemns various states of mind (such as lust), which in general are bad but which sometimes can be good (for example, if you want to create new humans). I think it's stupid to look at the NT as some new, really hard-to-follow legal code. It wasn't meant to be a legal code. It was meant to be a bunch of letters to strengthen and build up the church.

I agree with you in part here. We can't dispute the word of God. I'm sure there isn't too much wrong with a person having a few drinks with their wife or with a close friend - in a safe environment. The Bible isn't against us having fun, relaxing or forgetting our woes. However, as I was pointing out before the Lord doesn't want us setting ourselves up for a fall. Drinking and getting drunk in mixed company leads to lowered inhibitions, adultery, fornication, fighting, and all kinds of other trouble.

I also am not into legalism. On the other hand, I think it's very dangerous to consider adhering to God's laws as simply legalism. We don't want to look at the Bible as a bunch of "Don'ts" but we want to be careful of ignoring his commands. It's easy to see what the Bible is saying if you take things as a whole.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10

"Don't you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves.Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people - none of these will inherit the kingdom of God."

Overindulgence in alcohol can lead to some of these sins without question. Knowing these things and having them in God's word does in fact strengthen and build up the church as long as the church listens and obeys God's word. There are also most definitely laws in God's word that we must obey. Those things aren't just put in there for us to decide if this command or that command is something we would think is one of the commands we would like to follow or not follow. God really does have expectations of us.

I think legalism is where we start to get knit picky and more or less start picking each other apart over whether or not men should have long or short hair or whether women should or should not wear only dresses to church. There are more ridiculous examples. God really does have some real rules though that He makes clear to us that we have to follow. The scripture above is pretty clear on that. I still agree with you that there is nothing wrong with having a drink or two but God doesn't want it to lead to drunkeness in our lives. He also doesn't want us to cause another to fall if they are weak in that area. I would not want to be responsible for another falling off the wagon just because I wanted a beer or a glass of wine.

Anyway, that is my opinion based on my understanding of what the Bible says.

I also wanted to add this point. Legalism also comes about when we actually get so caught up in the do's and don't's that we forget why we are obeying them. We more or less get caught up in worshipping the law instead of God. When we obey the rules out of LOVE for our Father then He really is please with us for our obedience. He wants more than anything for us to obey Him because we love Him. This was the problem with the Pharisees and the Saduccees. They worshipped the law rather than God. If we choose to obey His laws unquestioningly out of love for Him then we can be sure we won't get bound up in legalism.