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seer
06-14-2016, 09:36 AM
It violates God's created order for human sexuality. It is a sin, if not repented of, that is worthy judgement - possible eternal separation from God. Does this firmly held belief make me a bigot? Homophobic? If so why?

DesertBerean
06-14-2016, 09:38 AM
Why is this in Civics?

Leonhard
06-14-2016, 09:38 AM
It violates God's created order for human sexuality. It is a sin, if not repented of, that is worthy judgement - possible eternal separation from God. Does this firmly held belief make me a bigot? Homophobic? If so why?

Since a bigot is someone who is intolerant or hateful towards a group of people, and I presume you treat gay people with respect, I don't see why its bigoted. And if you don't show prejudice, or negative stereotypes, or perpetuate false information about gay people, I don't see why you should be called homophobic.

seer
06-14-2016, 10:01 AM
Since a bigot is someone who is intolerant or hateful towards a group of people, and I presume you treat gay people with respect, I don't see why its bigoted. And if you don't show prejudice, or negative stereotypes, or perpetuate false information about gay people, I don't see why you should be called homophobic.

Won't the very fact that I hold their behavior to be immoral on religious beliefs qualify me as a bigot - at least? And yes, over the years I have had a number of gay friends and relatives. I have always treated them with kindness and respect.

Leonhard
06-14-2016, 10:06 AM
Won't the very fact that I hold their behavior to be immoral on religious beliefs qualify me as a bigot - at least? And yes, over the years I have had a number of gay friends and relatives. I have always treated them with kindness and respect.

To me it would only depend on whether you treated them differently. Mind you I do think there are some real issues with bigotry against gay people in Christian communities seer. I've heard of parents disowning their children etc... nasty stuff. And there's some bad myths being perpetuated uncritically. Stuff like that I'll call bigotry and homophobic without hesitation. In as much as you don't participate in that stuff, you're neither.

seer
06-14-2016, 10:13 AM
To me it would only depend on whether you treated them differently. Mind you I do think there are some real issues with bigotry against gay people in Christian communities seer. I've heard of parents disowning their children etc... nasty stuff. And there's some bad myths being perpetuated uncritically. Stuff like that I'll call bigotry and homophobic without hesitation. In as much as you don't participate in that stuff, you're neither.

It is funny, I have been a Christian for 26 years and have attended some pretty fundamentalist Churches but never really heard that kind of bigotry - besides the standard sin stuff. But in a sense, since I do not believe a culture should embrace this behavior, I have been against Gay Marriage for instance - which would be treating them differently in law.

Raphael
06-14-2016, 02:42 PM
It is funny, I have been a Christian for 26 years and have attended some pretty fundamentalist Churches but never really heard that kind of bigotry - besides the standard sin stuff. But in a sense, since I do not believe a culture should embrace this behavior, I have been against Gay Marriage for instance - which would be treating them differently in law.

I do know a gay couple (errr well they were a couple, recently split up) where the one's father has completely disowned him. So it does happen. (his father is a regte Afrikaaner attending the NG Kerk which if you know about it, explains a lot)

seer
06-14-2016, 02:54 PM
I do know a gay couple (errr well they were a couple, recently split up) where the one's father has completely disowned him. So it does happen. (his father is a regte Afrikaaner attending the NG Kerk which if you know about it, explains a lot)

No doubt, I had a friend who's father disowned him, but not on religious grounds. His dad was real macho.

ke7ejx
06-15-2016, 02:15 PM
Why is this in Civics?

I don't know, but I wonder the same thing. This seems more of an apologetics thing to me...

DesertBerean
06-15-2016, 02:26 PM
I don't know, but I wonder the same thing. This seems more of an apologetics thing to me...
More like ethics. It's there now.

Catholicity
07-02-2016, 12:29 AM
I think homosexual actions are immoral. However I know many people who are "gay" that are celibate and I do not consider that immoral nor do I consider that they identify as gay immoral especially since they practice celibacy and avoid sexual immorality. However, since we are on it. There are all kinds of sexual immorality and I believe each sexual sin is the same as the other and no two are different. If as Christians we accuse homosexuals of being outside of the fullness of grace then neither is it acceptable to have sex outside of marriage, extra marital affairs and those who do are also outside the fullness of grace and cannot be classified as "orthodox" Christians as long as they are living in sin. Ok off my soap box.

NorrinRadd
07-20-2016, 12:21 AM
Well, there sure must be a lot of unorthodox Christians out there, because studies show many Christians, if not the vast majority, have participated in the sexual practices you condemn. So much for the failure of orthodoxy to come to grips with the realities of human sexuality.

Why would you think "orthodoxy" -- or perhaps better "orthopraxy" -- should come to grips with these alleged "realities"? Orthodoxy and orthopraxy are about the ways things *should* be, whether or not they commonly *are*.

Bill the Cat
07-20-2016, 06:22 AM
In theology, "orthodox" also means conventional or traditional. I know that much conventional religious teaching on sex was in fact homophobic and repressive.

The entire history of the orthodox church has been that homosexual behavior is incompatible with Christianity. There is absolutely no arguing against that, especially trying to use the decayed relativism of today's western churches.

Sparko
07-20-2016, 09:33 AM
What do you take to be "God's created order for human sexuality"? If your argument is that God created sexuality purely for the purposes of human reproduction, you are sadly mistaken. Among humans and other species, sexuality serves a many purposes other than mere reproduction. Among humans, the amount of sexual arousal we are naturally inclined to experience, as well as the amount of sperm produced by use males, far exceeds the amount necessary for reproduction. This is also true of other species. That, and that alone, is a powerful natural revelation that sex serves purposes other than mere reproduction.

If you are trying to argue you aren't homophobic, forget it. You probably are. We all are. We have all been raised in a very sexually oppressive and repressive, homophobic society.

Citing Scripture is no simple answer. We all know that the Bible prohibits homosexuality. However, the problem is that the biblical laws prohibit and also permit quite a number of things we do not and with good reason. One example would be the dietary laws. Another example is the sanctification of slavery, as can be found in Exod. 21. So why do you make homosexuality such an exception?Do you understand the difference between ceremonial law and moral law? And in laws that were changed in the NT (like the dietary laws), and those that were actually reinforced (like homosexual behavior is a sin?)

NorrinRadd
07-20-2016, 04:31 PM
In theology, "orthodox" also means conventional or traditional. I know that much conventional religious teaching on sex was in fact homophobic and repressive.

Again, so what? For the Xian, the question should not be, "Are my doctrine and practice compatible with modern cultural norms," it should be "Are my doctrine and practice compatible with the best understanding of Scripture itself?"

KingsGambit
07-20-2016, 04:51 PM
How do we determine that our own moral judgments supersede that the Bible? And whose moral judgments do we go with?

Lens
07-25-2016, 05:41 AM
Do you understand the difference between ceremonial law and moral law? And in laws that were changed in the NT (like the dietary laws), and those that were actually reinforced (like homosexual behavior is a sin?)

I do not, but I am curious about this.

Bill the Cat
07-25-2016, 05:44 AM
I do not, but I am curious about this.

Please set your faith tag in your profile.

Sparko
07-25-2016, 06:07 AM
I do not, but I am curious about this.God made the Hebrews his chosen people. He gave them the law to separate them from the other people of the world. To make them holy. Some of the laws he gave them were ceremonial, to keep them separate from other people, like circumcision, or not eating certain foods, or wearing certain clothes. Other laws were moral laws, that taught them right from wrong, like stealing or killing is evil. He also gave them laws that were made to point toward the coming messiah and salvation and redemption. Like sacrifices for sin. This was the Old Covenant. The Jews broke this covenant over and over.

When Jesus came, he brought a new covenant, one that superseded the old covenant and was for all mankind, not just the hebrews. Since the old covenant was no longer in effect, and the new covenant was for all man and not just hebrews, the ceremonial and dietary laws were no longer binding on anyone. There was also no longer any need for sacrifices, since Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice. But the moral code was still in effect. Jesus and the apostles even reiterated many of them, like adultery is wrong, killing is wrong, homosexuality is wrong, etc. Morals do not change and they are for all mankind for all time. The punishment for violation of the moral codes will change depending on the society and government of the time and place, but God still wants us to follow his moral edicts.

Lens
07-25-2016, 08:06 AM
Please set your faith tag in your profile.

Just did.



God made the Hebrews his chosen people. He gave them the law to separate them from the other people of the world. To make them holy. Some of the laws he gave them were ceremonial, to keep them separate from other people, like circumcision, or not eating certain foods, or wearing certain clothes. Other laws were moral laws, that taught them right from wrong, like stealing or killing is evil. He also gave them laws that were made to point toward the coming messiah and salvation and redemption. Like sacrifices for sin. This was the Old Covenant. The Jews broke this covenant over and over.

When Jesus came, he brought a new covenant, one that superseded the old covenant and was for all mankind, not just the hebrews. Since the old covenant was no longer in effect, and the new covenant was for all man and not just hebrews, the ceremonial and dietary laws were no longer binding on anyone. There was also no longer any need for sacrifices, since Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice. But the moral code was still in effect. Jesus and the apostles even reiterated many of them, like adultery is wrong, killing is wrong, homosexuality is wrong, etc. Morals do not change and they are for all mankind for all time. The punishment for violation of the moral codes will change depending on the society and government of the time and place, but God still wants us to follow his moral edicts.

Thanks. :) Clarified some things.

Bibleuser
12-12-2017, 03:09 AM
No on both counts as Jesus feels the same as you.
BU