Your experiences with JWs

[BillTBC]

I'm curious to know everyone's experiences with JWs.

I've only known one family personally, but they never tried to evangelize me.

Other occasions I remember:

Given materials while waiting in a car
Given materials while walking to school-they did not wish to talk
Had materials stuffed in my apartment door
Received an anonymous letter a few days later
Found materials left in various places: common areas of dorms, laundry mats, subway


There's been only one occasion where they've come to my door. I engaged with them in their conversation, but as soon as I quoted Scripture and told them I am a Catholic student studying philosophy, they couldn't get away fast enough!:shrug:

[JB]

They used to pop by my door every now and then, but they kept breaking their promises to come back. The one time I let them come in and talked with them for a couple hours before their superior stopped by and told them they had to leave.

[Cal_Minian]

I'm curious to know everyone's experiences with JWs.

I've only known one family personally, but they never tried to evangelize me.

Other occasions I remember:

Given materials while waiting in a car
Given materials while walking to school-they did not wish to talk
Had materials stuffed in my apartment door
Received an anonymous letter a few days later
Found materials left in various places: common areas of dorms, laundry mats, subway


There's been only one occasion where they've come to my door. I engaged with them in their conversation, but as soon as I quoted Scripture and told them I am a Catholic student studying philosophy, they couldn't get away fast enough!:shrug:

You probably are not home often when we call. If you were in my territory I would come and visit you. I would be more interested in discussing Scripture than philosophy, but then that is a difference between Catholics and Jehovah's Witnesses. We read the bible and you read philosophy.

[Crow]

I'm curious to know everyone's experiences with JWs.

I've only known one family personally, but they never tried to evangelize me.

Other occasions I remember:

Given materials while waiting in a car
Given materials while walking to school-they did not wish to talk
Had materials stuffed in my apartment door
Received an anonymous letter a few days later
Found materials left in various places: common areas of dorms, laundry mats, subway
There's been only one occasion where they've come to my door. I engaged with them in their conversation, but as soon as I quoted Scripture and told them I am a Catholic student studying philosophy, they couldn't get away fast enough!:shrug:

Several years ago my tegu lizard chased them out of my living room. That was the last time any dropped by. My next door neighbor was a JW. I told her that I wasn't interested and she left it at that.

[BillTBC]

You probably are not home often when we call. If you were in my territory I would come and visit you. I would be more interested in discussing Scripture than philosophy, but then that is a difference between Catholics and Jehovah's Witnesses. We read the bible and you read philosophy.

Speak for yourself. I read both.

[Cal_Minian]

Speak for yourself. I read both.

Yes, but you said you told them you were a philosophy student, not a bible student. Do you understand the difference?

[BillTBC]

Yes, but you said you told them you were a philosophy student, not a bible student. Do you understand the difference?

Of course I understand the difference. So what? I told them I'm a philosophy student because I have one degree in philosophy and I'm finishing up my masters in it now. I'm not in a Bible college studying the New Testament, (though as part of my undergraduate degree I took two Bible classes taught by a Protestant minister). That's what I told them. If anyone concludes from that that I don't read the Bible and that I don't consider myself a Bible student (in an every day sense), then I don't know what to tell you. There's no reason to assume that.

If I were studying chemistry, I would have said, "I am a chemistry student at X university." If I was a psychology student, I would have said, "I am a psychology student at X university." But I can still be a Bible student, too. They asked me what I do for a living and I said I am a university student studying philosophy. Get it?

[Cal_Minian]

Of course I understand the difference. So what? I told them I'm a philosophy student because I have one degree in philosophy and I'm finishing up my masters in it now. I'm not in a Bible college studying the New Testament, (though as part of my undergraduate degree I took two Bible classes taught by a Protestant minister). That's what I told them. If anyone concludes from that that I don't read the Bible and that I don't consider myself a Bible student (in an every day sense), then I don't know what to tell you. There's no reason to assume that.

If I were studying chemistry, I would have said, "I am a chemistry student at X university." If I was a psychology student, I would have said, "I am a psychology student at X university." But I can still be a Bible student, too. They asked me what I do for a living and I said I am a university student studying philosophy. Get it?

I am not trying to make you mad. Sorry. But if they brought up the bible and you started talking about philosophy then perhaps they thought you were not interested in the bible and so they left. I don't know. I was not there. But from what you said it sounded possible. When they came to your door did you go get your bible so that you could discuss it with them?

[John Goddard]

My father's side of the family are all JW, my sister also was for five years. I studied with them here and there over the years, and they still visit my house every Saturday.

On the negative side, my uncle was alcoholic and abusive to my aunt, my father's sister, so she divorced him and they disfellowshipped her since he never cheated on her, they said she needed to stay with him.

I also don't mind shooting the breeze with them now when they visit, but when it comes to talking about the Bible they want to stick to their speeches rather than have a discussion and that irritates me, they talk over you.

Otherwise they were always polite to me, most seem to mean well and I agree with some of their positions regarding holidays.

[BillTBC]

I am not trying to make you mad. Sorry. But if they brought up the bible and you started talking about philosophy then perhaps they thought you were not interested in the bible and so they left. I don't know. I was not there. But from what you said it sounded possible. When they came to your door did you go get your bible so that you could discuss it with them?

I understand that you weren't trying to make me mad. I have a tendency to overreact.

This is what I said, "I engaged with them in their conversation, but as soon as I quoted Scripture and told them I am a Catholic student studying philosophy, they couldn't get away fast enough!" I didn't go grab my Bible because I didn't have the opportunity. They left too quickly. But I would have if they were interested in doing so.

[Cal_Minian]

I understand that you weren't trying to make me mad. I have a tendency to overreact.

This is what I said, "I engaged with them in their conversation, but as soon as I quoted Scripture and told them I am a Catholic student studying philosophy, they couldn't get away fast enough!" I didn't go grab my Bible because I didn't have the opportunity. They left too quickly. But I would have if they were interested in doing so.

I can arrange to have someone drop by if you want. Or you can email them at the contact for http://www.watchtower.org

[Alucard]

The JWs stopped dropping by after I kept one of them on the doorstep for two hours.

[mostlyharmless]

JW's usually do their ministry stuff in very respectful ways. If you know them personally they will not badger you about stuff and you may actually have the chance to discuss faith in a reasonable way. When I get them on the doorstep they are always polite but I see little point in talking as really they want to give their presentation not discuss things. The last time I had some I did discuss the trinity with them briefly since I am currently studying it postgrad at a Divinity College, but naturally they were not particularly interested in it. I respect that and did not try and extend the conversation.

[Mountain Man]

The only encounter I can think of was when I was in high school walking to work. A woman approached me with a copy of The Watchtower and a smile and asked me if I would like to talk. When I politely declined and told her I was a Christian, her smile vanished and she quickly walked away without another word.

[Elahrairah]

When I was a missionary in Germany, we had one JW who seemed interested in being taught by us. We made an appontment and agreed to talk about our church for half the time, and then here him explain what the JW beleived.
When the meeting came, he never let us bring our church up.

[David_A_Reed]

After rejecting religion when around 14 years of age, I spent the next few years as an outspoken atheist. But then I had a boring job, and worked along side a JW. Our conversations turned into a formal study, and before long I was a baptized JW, and spent the next 13 years in the organization, part of the time serving as a full-time "pioneer" (at that time = reporting 100 hours/month in the door-to-door work) and later served 8 years as an elder.

I married a JW who had also pioneered. Eventually we began prayerfully reading the Bible with the aim of becoming better JWs. But in the Bible itself (without study-books to interpret it) we encountered Jesus and the true message of the Gospel.

Speaking the truth we found in Scripture eventually led to our being expelled from the organization. It was after that, that we made contact with Christians and found other fellowship outside the Watchtower organization.

David

[spiritmech]

I have have a friend at work who is JW. I respect him a ton. He doesn't evangelize me, and I don't evangelize him. We discuss some things in general. We had a short discussion once about Russian Orthodox beating up JWs in Russia and Eastern Europe. I agreed with him that it wasn't a good situation and that that's not the proper way to express God's love.

sm

[Armor of God]

I had a pair of nice ladies who used to come by the house on a weekly basis. I did everything I could to make them feel comfortable in my house, but when they saw that I was more interested in exhausting one topic at a time (as opposed to bouncing from verse to verse) I could tell they were starting to become less interersted. The meetings became less consistant, and when I asked them about it, they mentioned that they needed to move on to folks who would be more interested in a study instead of debating over details. After that, they had a circuit leader (I think that's what they called him) come by and talk to me. I guess he decided I didn't have a "teachable spirit" because that was the last time they came by. I made it clear that they were always welcome.

[anewlife]

The meetings became less consistant, and when I asked them about it, they mentioned that they needed to move on to folks who would be more interested in a study instead of debating over details. After that, they had a circuit leader (I think that's what they called him) come by and talk to me.

So basically they just wanted a study, not so much riff-raff over the details. Sounds like some of the old salesman tatics implored by the Rainbow Sweeper crew in the 70's. So how did the circuit leader work out?

:blush:

[Armor of God]

So basically they just wanted a study, not so much riff-raff over the details. Sounds like some of the old salesman tatics implored by the Rainbow Sweeper crew in the 70's. So how did the circuit leader work out?

:blush:

How's it going? You still chasing down dem blasted femurs and hairy ticks? :eek:

The circuit leader thanked me for the hospitality, but made it clear that they "would not bug me anymore." I did my best to make it clear that they were not bugging me and that we had the search for truth in common, but they were looking for "students," not someone that would question them.

[Heartablaze]

I regret that the only time JWs came to our door, I was unprepared to talk to them. My father did talk to them for a couple of minutes, and then politely sent them on their way.

[David_A_Reed]

How's it going? You still chasing down dem blasted femurs and hairy ticks? :eek:

The circuit leader thanked me for the hospitality, but made it clear that they "would not bug me anymore." I did my best to make it clear that they were not bugging me and that we had the search for truth in common, but they were looking for "students," not someone that would question them.

Circuit Overseers often do the task of terminating unproductive studies, so that the JWs can move on to find potential converts.

David

[Mudflap]

Most I know are really nice, if they like it and it's their thing then good for them.

[Sparko]

Most I know are really nice, if they like it and it's their thing then good for them.

so you don't care if they are lost and in a cult then, as long as they are happy?

[MarcusAndreas]

I've only had one experience, and I slept right through it. Apparently, while I was sleeping, some Witnesses stopped by to attempt to convert us. That's all I heard, because I slept right through it.

[MooseOnTheLoose]

A young JW regularly comes into my store and seems willing to discuss any issue in an open and friendly way. However her mother came in today and told me outright that there is no debate. Such-and-such and such-and-such is the way things are, and that's it.

I felt as if I'd been lectured to.

[Paintbucket]

I've had 2 stop by the house before. I answered the door and politely got them to leave, although I did talk to them for about 5 minutes so they didn't feel too bad.

[Cowthulu]

This may be an old thread to resurrect, but oh well. :smile:

I had two stop by two days ago. They read to me out of Revelation and it was early so I hadn't realized they were JWs yet. They still could have been Mormons or something else entirely for all I knew. I asked them which interpretive method they applied to Revelation and the younger one just looked at my quizzically and moved on to other subjects.

We discussed stuff for a while, then they wanted to move on. They handed me their little booklet and asked if they could come back next week to discuss it. I have scanned through it in anticipation of that return. We'll see if they come back.

I'll be happy to discuss the problems I found with their booklet with them. My main hope and prayer is to be a good witness of the Lord Jesus Christ to them. Only God can change hearts. I only pray I can be one of his many instruments.

[Xmansmommy]

I studied with a very respectful and lovely JW woman for two years. There were times I agreed with her views and times I did not. I was always free to express myself and did so frequently. I will admit that there were times when she would have a companion with her who was more desirous to debate when I shared my views and I politely let her know why I believed what I did and that I wasn't going to debate it. Other than that, my experience with them went very well.

The young woman who came to visit with me weekly had some unexpected events in her life change and our meetings stopped. But it was perfect timing as we had just finished the booklet that they study with you titled "What Does the Bible Really Teach?" and the question of what was hindering me from accepting all of their views came up.

I took some time and prayerfully listed each of the views I could not accept and shared them with her on our last visit. I have not had anyone contact me to discuss those things further. I have had pioneers drop of their magazines once or twice since then but they always seem to come when I'm not home or something.

Anyway, it was a great time of study for me as I was isolated from any fellowship. I respect them and appreciate the time they spent sharing what they believe and why, with me. I am glad that they respect my confession from the beginning that I was not interested in becoming a JW but was interested in hearing what they believe but would ultimately accept/reject what I felt appropriate.

Speaking of that young woman, I think I'll email her and see how she's doing. She is a sweetheart. :smile:

[NathanDavid]

I have had three nice experiences with JW's.

I worked with one, and he was always very quiet. We worked in opposite ends of the building. Eventually I made friends with him and shared some of my views about the Revelation, and he seemed interested. He never argued anything, nor did he ever deny my words or try to sway me.

Same thing at a local Hanna Homes charity, nice JW ladies (I think they were) listened to my views.

Also, many years prior to that a nice JW couple at my door was precious and quiet. Just dropped the leaflet and smiled. It contained no false doctrine that I could find, but I know that there is much in the denomination.

I have had an advantage over most mainstreamers when it comes to the JW's, in that I have done alot of study in Revelation, and I recognize the ICRC as the beast of Revelation 13:1. I also acknowledge that in Acts 1, or Acts 2, we are instructed to obstain from blood, and that drinking through a straw or through a needle is the same to God. So, for that, I salute at least some of the JWs' teaching.

In, I think Gelations, however, it says that no one in his flesh will have any part in heaven, but that there will be a quickening. That is not just figurative. Christ's entire life could be explained away if one were to be figurative about everything. I do appreciate God's purpose with the JW's, though, in that they reject taking blood.

[Cowthulu]

Oh well, they didn't show when they said they would come back. All is not lost, I enjoyed the research preparing for it.

[Silver Hand]

I work with three woman who are JW's.

Actually, one of them happens to be physically disabled, like me. All three have given me pamphlets and studies on "Paradise Earth," where I will one day apparently be able-bodied.

Now, understand that as a Christian, I realize that one day I will have my resurrection body. My wheelchair doesn't bug me because I know I won't need it forever. But I feel so sad for the one woman. The cult got her when she was vulnerable, using her disability to exploit her.

I'm always eager to engage her on theological issues, but she tries to limit the discussion to "Paradise Earth." When I bring up more urgent issues, like salvation or the deity of Christ, she either ignores me or we talk in circles...

I pray for her, and actually request specific literature from her (both to expand my knowledge of the cult for apologetics' sake and to keep her coming to me for discussion). I know I've made progress, getting her to question things, but she definitely puts up a wall.

Don't even get me started on the New World Translation. It's like someone took the NIV and dumped in strange renderings and cultic terminology. Flat-out bad stuff.

[spiritmech]

What's up with the stuff about drinking through a straw? I asked my JW friend about it and he said no, that's not what he believes. Can you give some citation, NathanDavid?
sm


I have had three nice experiences with JW's.

I worked with one, and he was always very quiet. We worked in opposite ends of the building. Eventually I made friends with him and shared some of my views about the Revelation, and he seemed interested. He never argued anything, nor did he ever deny my words or try to sway me.

Same thing at a local Hanna Homes charity, nice JW ladies (I think they were) listened to my views.

Also, many years prior to that a nice JW couple at my door was precious and quiet. Just dropped the leaflet and smiled. It contained no false doctrine that I could find, but I know that there is much in the denomination.

I have had an advantage over most mainstreamers when it comes to the JW's, in that I have done alot of study in Revelation, and I recognize the ICRC as the beast of Revelation 13:1. I also acknowledge that in Acts 1, or Acts 2, we are instructed to obstain from blood, and that drinking through a straw or through a needle is the same to God. So, for that, I salute at least some of the JWs' teaching.

In, I think Gelations, however, it says that no one in his flesh will have any part in heaven, but that there will be a quickening. That is not just figurative. Christ's entire life could be explained away if one were to be figurative about everything. I do appreciate God's purpose with the JW's, though, in that they reject taking blood.

[NathanDavid]

I did a poor job of illustrating that taking blood through a needle to feed your flesh is the same as taking it through a straw. The purpose is to nourish your body.

[Silver Hand]

Given the constant doctrinal shifts and updates, I wouldn't be surprised if "straw-drinkers" were soon disfellowshipped heh

[NathanDavid]

Doctrinal shifts and updates? I stand on the main body of what I have stood on for about seventeen years now. I have to make what the Bible calls "reproof and correction." Only a fool wouldn't! As you were saying?

[spiritmech]

Ok. :shrug: So straws are okay, needles are bad.
sm


I did a poor job of illustrating that taking blood through a needle to feed your flesh is the same as taking it through a straw. The purpose is to nourish your body.

[Dave G]

One summer I sold books door to door in Indiana. (I'm from Texas).
One afternoon I couldn't get a single person to answer their door, and I was tired and frustrated.
I finally saw a woman in her garden, way back from the back of her house.
I went back to ask her if she was interested, and I told her I hadn't had much luck getting anybody at home.
She said, "Oh, today is the day for the Jehovah's Witnesses to come by. It looks like you've been following them all day."

[Silver Hand]

Doctrinal shifts and updates?

Yes. I'm speaking of the cult who call themselves "Jehovah's Witnesses." Their doctrines and predictions are constantly being questioned and discredited so that they have to shift their theology around update the deadline for the Apocalypse.


I have to make what the Bible calls "reproof and correction." Only a fool wouldn't!

Amen!

[NathanDavid]

Cult or not, the JW's deserve to be loved to Christ. JW's are always polite, and I have never been pressured by a one of them about my beliefs. To the contrary, they have always seemed to offer an ear to my teachings, and I don't even hide the fact that I don't accept their teaching.

I have already stated in one post that I do agree with the JW's that taking another person's blood is an abomination. It goes back to Leviticus 17 . Where I have been pressured and attacked the most for my beliefs is by the United Pentacostals, The New Testament Church (same as U.Ps), and the Church of Christ, I have never been attacked by the JW's.

Whenever I do attend a corporate church service, I usually go to a Church of God. They are immune to the delusions of the CoC. I don't agree with a good bit of the denomination's teachings, especially on the Revelation, but they have great services and are really charitable. Pator Culpepper, now running their big college in Tennessee, is a wonderful personality!

God has a purpose in each separation in the Body of Christ. The Baptists offer basic baptisms and basics about salvation, the Pentacostals a big "to do" about what is said during one's baptism (for which by products of my trials in the fire ultimately led me to easily read and understand Rev 13:14). The Seventh Day's are good at understanding much of Revelation and humansim, but take it too far (as do some on this board with their over-extended interpretations that "just aren't there"). Church of Christ, ditto, but they must have something that God wants me to understand, probably something that I already know and haven't yet updated in my book. Coc was the first denomination to try me with fire, but it fizzled when I shot down their elder and was left to look at his defeated look, and hear him speechless.

The Church of God has the best music of any denomination I have ever encountered. I decided that after having tried the spirits in more than 60 congregations of various divisions in Alabama churches. The other denominations have NEVER offered me any crap about my beliefs, not even my RC friends. My one friend, a doctor's son, is RC in an RC church that uses a KJV. Now THAT's the Spirit of a cool breeze!

John McCain is Episcopalean, right? As is Bush Sr? and Barbara and George Jr. Baptists? Fred Thompson CoC, Huckabee Baptist, Romney LDS, Biden Catholic, Obama occult, American Sweetheart Palin - full gospel non-denomination? Who did I miss? Hillary, methodist-feminist "fill in the blank here..."? Bill, sexual predator?

[NathanDavid]

Silver Hand, you should be commending the JW's for accepting that they have errors. If they event to a better truth than I, then I will learn more of what they offer. I know that they do not believe in being a part of the world's governments. I used to think that way, but Moses was in the transfiguration, despite some of the teaching in Corinthians about not going before "unbelievers" in the secular courts...

Is this why we are discussing the JW's, because they are actually accepting correction? They are getting bashed for that? Man, this is a dismal thread...

[Sparko]

Silver Hand, you should be commending the JW's for accepting that they have errors. If they event to a better truth than I, then I will learn more of what they offer. I know that they do not believe in being a part of the world's governments. I used to think that way, but Moses was in the transfiguration, despite some of the teaching in Corinthians about not going before "unbelievers" in the secular courts...

Is this why we are discussing the JW's, because they are actually accepting correction? They are getting bashed for that? Man, this is a dismal thread...

You seem to be under the misunderstanding that JW's are just some offshoot Christians with legalistic ideas.

Jehovah's Witnesses are a true Cult, and their doctrines put them outside of Christianity altogether. They are not part of the body of Christ. They are lost souls who need our help finding their way to the true Jesus just like any atheist, hindu, agnostic, buddhist, or muslim does.



Yes Christ loves them, just like he loves all mankind, but he knows they are lost too.

[cecropia]

Being part of a group of closeknit friends it was hard to take when one friend became a JW. At first she vowed that being a JW would not pull her away from her old friends. But of course she was pulled away. As she went deeper into the JW religion I was privy to their teachings through her. I detest their dogma and I detest what they do to people.

The JW forum is for theists only, unless you get moderator approval first.

[MooseOnTheLoose]

Sparko:
Jehovah's Witnesses are a true Cult, and their doctrines put them outside of Christianity altogether. They are not part of the body of Christ. They are lost souls who need our help finding their way to the true Jesus just like any atheist, hindu, agnostic, buddhist, or muslim does.

Yeah, burn all the non-true believers! :mob:

cecropia
I detest what they do to people.

What do they 'do' to people? Stretch them on a rack?

[rogue06]

Sparko:
Jehovah's Witnesses are a true Cult, and their doctrines put them outside of Christianity altogether. They are not part of the body of Christ. They are lost souls who need our help finding their way to the true Jesus just like any atheist, hindu, agnostic, buddhist, or muslim does.

Yeah, burn all the non-true believers! :mob:
I really don't think that's what Sparko is advocating here, do you?


As an aside I had two JWs come to my house about a decade ago. They asked if the could come in for a talk. I said sure, but in exchange they had to listen to and discuss my religious beliefs as well. They said they were pressed for time but would like to come by tomorrow afternoon when they had more time for the talk. I never heard from them or any other JWs again. The JWs still come into the neighborhood every so often but none ever stop at my door. I guess I'm on some sort of "do not bother" list :teeth:

[cecropia]

Stretch them on a rack? Now there is a thought ya think?

The JW forum is for theists only, unless you get moderator approval first

[Sparko]

cecropia, this area is for theists only.

[MooseOnTheLoose]

I really don't think that's what Sparko is advocating here, do you?

Okay, forget the JWs. Burn all the EVILutionists! :mob:

Seriously, as has been pointed out before, JWs at least make an effort to live their religion on a daily basis, as opposed to dropping into church once a week before going home, getting drunk, beating up the kids, sleeping with the neighbour's wife, etc.

[Sparko]

I really don't think that's what Sparko is advocating here, do you?

Okay, forget the JWs. Burn all the EVILutionists! :mob:

Seriously, as has been pointed out before, JWs at least make an effort to live their religion on a daily basis, as opposed to dropping into church once a week before going home, getting drunk, beating up the kids, sleeping with the neighbour's wife, etc.

so do mormons. and muslims. what's your point? That if you sincerely work at your religion that God will save you?

[NathanDavid]

Didn't say they weren't a cult, Silver Hand. If you would even look at my post, you would see that the first word I stated was cult. Duuh...

I just said that they deserve to be loved to Christ. The Jews turned their passions against sinners into hatred for their brother, and then they crucified our Lord. That is what you all are doing in hate mongering. If you want to hate monger, then aim it at the politicians. The Bible says to give them much grief and sorrow...

[Sparko]

Didn't say they weren't a cult, Silver Hand. If you would even look at my post, you would see that the first word I stated was cult. Duuh...

I just said that they deserve to be loved to Christ. The Jews turned their passions against sinners into hatred for their brother, and then they crucified our Lord. That is what you all are doing in hate mongering. If you want to hate monger, then aim it at the politicians. The Bible says to give them much grief and sorrow...

so who has advocated any unloving attitude towards JWs?

Loving your neighbor means telling them the truth. That they belong to a cult, they are unsaved and need the real Jesus in their life.

[Silver Hand]

Didn't say they weren't a cult, Silver Hand. If you would even look at my post, you would see that the first word I stated was cult. Duuh...

Um, what's your beef with me, sir? I've only posted two comments in this thread. There have been several comments posted since I left mine. Duuh...

[cecropia]

i HAVE AS MUCH RIGHT TO STATE MY OPINION AS YOU SPARKO

The JW forum is for theists only, unless you get moderator approval first

[NathanDavid]

Not trying to lay into you, (apparently - young fellow). I just do not want people thinking that I am JW or that I even lean in their direction. It helps to be aware that God has the gentiles trampling under foot the anti-Christ movement, where the Jews refuse to accept Christ. It is wiser to love people to God instead of trying to alienate them. That being said, I have a few bad posts out there myself... I am aware.

[NathanDavid]

Oh, I'm sorry Sliver... that was Sparko that left that post... :sigh

[Silver Hand]

Not trying to lay into you, (apparently - young fellow).

Yeah....okay, Grandpa:ahem:


I just do not want people thinking that I am JW or that I even lean in their direction.

Did we accuse you? No. I would never just assume someone was a Cult member. It's great that you don't lean in that direction. One less cult victim to plead with God in tears over. And I mean that. That God you're not a JW. Thank God I'm not one, either.


It helps to be aware that God has the gentiles trampling under foot the anti-Christ movement, where the Jews refuse to accept Christ.

:huh: From where I'm sitting, The Watchtower Bible And Tract Society is about as Antichrist as one can get, what with them denying the Son and all...


It is wiser to love people to God instead of trying to alienate them. That being said, I have a few bad posts out there myself... I am aware.

I do love them. But I hate what they teach. So does the God whose witnesses they claim to be. I do not alienate JW's. By definition, they alienate themselves from the historic Christian faith.

[NathanDavid]

I have heard alot about Watchtower being a cult. Aren't they a group who is like the ghost busters of Bible teachers? I know there is one called Watchman Fellowship, in the Birmingham, Alabama area who I shared my research with them back in the early 1990's, but got the idea that they weren't much interested. They were stationed in my hometown (in the burbs.

I don't know all of the bad on the JW's, only that they do not believe in a heaven or a hell. I've been getting ranted to death by two or three people who seem to be from a similar perspective, but one of them claims to be a Baptist. I don't know about some folks these days.....

Of course, you know that I agree with the JW's on the blood thing. I believe that they, like the Seventh Day Adventists, abstain from anything connected with secular politics also (which is odd, because I have a friend who is Seventh Day, and he got his degree and first thing grabbed up a high paying job as a paramedic in my hometown). I haven't drawn the hard lines against being involved in governmnet, so much. I can support either view with Bible, and I don't know which view is errant. I do want the law to be a schoolmaster.

[MooseOnTheLoose]

so do mormons. and muslims. what's your point? That if you sincerely work at your religion that God will save you?

We weren't talking about mormons and muslims, and I thought my point was obvious. Clearly it wasn't, and as both JB and silverhand gave an amen to your post, they need this explaining to them also.

There are many so called Christians whose religion doesn't seem to extend outside of the church walls. JWs are an exception to this.

Simple enough.

And who in the name of God are YOU to say who's lost and who's saved?

[Sparko]

so do mormons. and muslims. what's your point? That if you sincerely work at your religion that God will save you?

We weren't talking about mormons and muslims, and I thought my point was obvious. Clearly it wasn't, and as both JB and silverhand gave an amen to your post, they need this explaining to them also.

There are many so called Christians whose religion doesn't seem to extend outside of the church walls. JWs are an exception to this.

Simple enough.

but they are not Christian. You can ask them. To them "Christendom" as they call it, is corrupt and only they have the true restored church.




And who in the name of God are YOU to say who's lost and who's saved?

I can't tell you WHO is lost and saved, but I can tell you that if someone doesn't believe essential doctrines of salvation they are not saved. At least not according to mainstream Christianity. I am sure the JW's think just the opposite. One of us is wrong. I am betting my eternal life it isn't me.

[NathanDavid]

The Word judges folks though... less they repent:

Acts 8:14-25

[John Goddard]

but they are not Christian. You can ask them. To them "Christendom" as they call it, is corrupt and only they have the true restored church.

Yeah, Christianity is the Whore for them. My paternal side of the family is mostly JW.

[NathanDavid]

John, that's a little twisted. I know what you mean, but that's almost rude. Shouldn't capitalize the word whore. It makes it look like you agree with the philosophy of which you wrote. Surely you didn't mean it that way?

[NathanDavid]

John, is your mother a Christian?

[Silver Hand]

John, that's a little twisted. I know what you mean, but that's almost rude. Shouldn't capitalize the word whore. It makes it look like you agree with the philosophy of which you wrote. Surely you didn't mean it that way?

Hey Nate,

He meant Whore as in Whore of Babylon (Revelation 17-18). The JW's do have a strange interpretation of who that "Whore" is (by the way, the biblical interpretation is that the Whore of Babylon is none other than Jerusalem).

He wasn't calling anyone in his family a whore, and you know it. His comment was not in any way "almost rude." But your insinuation about his comment was.

You owe John an immediate apology!

[John Goddard]

John, is your mother a Christian?

She's dead. But she was raised Pentecostal.

The Bible tells us who the Whore of Babylon is.

Ezekiel 23:17 And the Babylonians came to her into the bed of love, and they defiled her with their whoredom, and she was polluted with them, and her mind was alienated from them.

Ezekiel 23:22 Therefore, O Aholibah, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will raise up thy lovers against thee, from whom thy mind is alienated, and I will bring them against thee on every side;

[NathanDavid]

John, I am sorry that you're mother is gone. If she was Christian, she is not dead, but sleepeth.

Silver Hand, I don't know the JW's doctrines. I do believe that many of the people in the world who are deceived by the anti-Christ will be folks who are regular attenders in their churches. You see it all the time, churches allowing the Red Cross in to suck the blood out of their congregations (what the Bible calls getting drunk on the blood of the saints, in addition to being drunk on the "highs" of war etc...). Most protestants call the Catholic church the "whore church," so what does that say about the JW's? That almost casts them into the mainstream. Hmm. Still don't know much about the JW's. I know what I believe about the anti-Christ, and to me, any doctrine that makes no room for that is probably a deceived bunch.

[TiaMarsha]

I became a JW in my 9th year of high school (1965-1966) b/c my dad invited them to study with them and he was a JW, but not 'practicing'. I began having doubts about what I thought was "the truth" of what I had believed in 1977. I was disfellowshiped in 1981, then reinstated (which entailed going back to the K.Hall for approx. 3 mos, arriving late and leaving early, so nobody would feel 'uncomfortable' b/c they are not allowed to talk to me until I'm reinstated. Within the next year, I decided to divorce my husband and leave the JW organization.
At that time I wasn't disfellowshiped, but later, when I informed them (at their request) of my 'intimacy' with my fiance, it was announced at the K.Hall where my kids attended with their dad when they were visiting him (one of them lived with him, the other two were with me) that I was disfellowshiped.
I came to Christ in 1983 through God's grace. He used friends from a Baptist Church in Atlanta, GA to witness to me and I began attending church with them.
In 1985 I married a Christian and we had a child. When my 3 children with my ex (who, of course, was a JW) turned 18 (1990, 1991 & 1995) they informed me that would no longer be associated with me, because it bothered their consciences too much that I was disfellowshiped.
It has been a painful road since then. God has blessed me in many other ways, but this loss is like a death...other things don't replace the lost, it's just a matter of living with it.
My oldest child did, by the grace of God, visit with me a few times with his children when they were little, but nothing since 2002! Why he did that, God only knows! But I thank God for those few visits!
Well, that's a very condensed version of my experience with JW's!

[Sparko]

I became a JW in my 9th year of high school (1965-1966) b/c my dad invited them to study with them and he was a JW, but not 'practicing'. I began having doubts about what I thought was "the truth" of what I had believed in 1977. I was disfellowshiped in 1981, then reinstated (which entailed going back to the K.Hall for approx. 3 mos, arriving late and leaving early, so nobody would feel 'uncomfortable' b/c they are not allowed to talk to me until I'm reinstated. Within the next year, I decided to divorce my husband and leave the JW organization.
At that time I wasn't disfellowshiped, but later, when I informed them (at their request) of my 'intimacy' with my fiance, it was announced at the K.Hall where my kids attended with their dad when they were visiting him (one of them lived with him, the other two were with me) that I was disfellowshiped.
I came to Christ in 1983 through God's grace. He used friends from a Baptist Church in Atlanta, GA to witness to me and I began attending church with them.
In 1985 I married a Christian and we had a child. When my 3 children with my ex (who, of course, was a JW) turned 18 (1990, 1991 & 1995) they informed me that would no longer be associated with me, because it bothered their consciences too much that I was disfellowshiped.
It has been a painful road since then. God has blessed me in many other ways, but this loss is like a death...other things don't replace the lost, it's just a matter of living with it.
My oldest child did, by the grace of God, visit with me a few times with his children when they were little, but nothing since 2002! Why he did that, God only knows! But I thank God for those few visits!
Well, that's a very condensed version of my experience with JW's!


Tia, I am so sorry to hear about your family. Cults like the JWs and the Mormons use family and disfellowship as a means to control their members. It is very hard for someone to leave a cult like that knowing that their own family and friends won't associate with them any more. I am glad you got out, but sad that your children are still caught in that web.

[the copt]

i am an Egyptian Coptic Christian

i have an experience with JW

there is a christian mechanic near us who actually told me that some people come to him every Sunday and told him that hell does not exist

i went several times to talk to them .. actually .. they think we Christians have nothing to say or to tell them and they have all the truth and they are always not ready to hear anything from us ... now .. they still visit the shop of the christian mechanic and when i come in .. they say they want to go and step away from his shop

by the way here in Egypt we dont have sunday as a dayoff from the job

[Cal_Minian]

i am an Egyptian Coptic Christian

i have an experience with JW

there is a christian mechanic near us who actually told me that some people come to him every Sunday and told him that hell does not exist

i went several times to talk to them .. actually .. they think we Christians have nothing to say or to tell them and they have all the truth and they are always not ready to hear anything from us ... now .. they still visit the shop of the christian mechanic and when i come in .. they say they want to go and step away from his shop

by the way here in Egypt we dont have sunday as a dayoff from the job

There must be a miss-communication. Jehovah's Witnesses teach that the Greek word HADES (Hebrew Sheol) is used for the literal place where the dead go when they die, the grave. As such we do believe in the biblical hell. Ironically many in Christendom who say JWS don't believe in hell teach that hell is symbolic for separation from God and not a real place. The reformers and Catholics teach this.

So it is really others who don't believe in hell. What Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe is that the dead are consciously tormented after death in hell. (Ps 146:4; Eccl 9:5)

-Cal

[the copt]

There must be a miss-communication. Jehovah's Witnesses teach that the Greek word HADES (Hebrew Sheol) is used for the literal place where the dead go when they die, the grave. As such we do believe in the biblical hell. Ironically many in Christendom who say JWS don't believe in hell teach that hell is symbolic for separation from God and not a real place. The reformers and Catholics teach this.

So it is really others who don't believe in hell. What Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe is that the dead are consciously tormented after death in hell. (Ps 146:4; Eccl 9:5)

-Cal


let me laugh please ...

let us see ... you say that people are not consciously tormented after death ..... so would you please tell that to jesus ?!! may be he will join your cult ? i think he dont know what you just say .. you know why .. because he said that people are tourmented after death !!!

luke 16 : 19 - 31 ( NWT) ... read it from your TRANSLATION jehovah witness !!


"19 “But a certain man was rich, and he used to deck himself with purple and linen, enjoying himself from day to day with magnificence. 20 But a certain beggar named Laz´a·rus used to be put at his gate, full of ulcers 21 and desiring to be filled with the things dropping from the table of the rich man. Yes, too, the dogs would come and lick his ulcers. 22 Now in course of time the beggar died and he was carried off by the angels to the bosom [position] of Abraham.

“Also, the rich man died and was buried. 23 And in Ha´des he lifted up his eyes, he existing in torments, and he saw Abraham afar off and Laz´a·rus in the bosom [position] with him. 24 So he called and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Laz´a·rus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in anguish in this blazing fire.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you received in full your good things in your lifetime, but Laz´a·rus correspondingly the injurious things. Now, however, he is having comfort here but you are in anguish. 26 And besides all these things, a great chasm has been fixed between us and YOU people, so that those wanting to go over from here to YOU people cannot, neither may people cross over from there to us.’ 27 Then he said, ‘In that event I ask you, father, to send him to the house of my father, 28 for I have five brothers, in order that he may give them a thorough witness, that they also should not get into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to these.’ 30 Then he said, ‘No, indeed, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.’”



so would you tell me ... how can be lazarus and the rich man dead .. and talk to each other ?? and talk to abraham ??? and isnt the rich man here is tourmented after his death ? and concerning the word "hades" ... did the rich man left up his eyes while he was DEAD in the GRAVE !!


read ... Revelation 6 : 9 - 10 ( NWT)

"9 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness work that they used to have. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood upon those who dwell on the earth?



they are already dead .. slaughterd ... and yet they still CRY !! ... if they cease to exist .... how can they cry ?!! and ask god things ??

[Cal_Minian]

let me laugh please ...

let us see ... you say that people are not consciously tormented after death ..... so would you please tell that to jesus ?!! may be he will join your cult ? i think he dont know what you just say .. you know why .. because he said that people are tourmented after death !!!

luke 16 : 19 - 31 ( NWT) ... read it from your TRANSLATION jehovah witness !!


"19 “But a certain man was rich, and he used to deck himself with purple and linen, enjoying himself from day to day with magnificence. 20 But a certain beggar named Laz´a·rus used to be put at his gate, full of ulcers 21 and desiring to be filled with the things dropping from the table of the rich man. Yes, too, the dogs would come and lick his ulcers. 22 Now in course of time the beggar died and he was carried off by the angels to the bosom [position] of Abraham.

“Also, the rich man died and was buried. 23 And in Ha´des he lifted up his eyes, he existing in torments, and he saw Abraham afar off and Laz´a·rus in the bosom [position] with him. 24 So he called and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Laz´a·rus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in anguish in this blazing fire.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you received in full your good things in your lifetime, but Laz´a·rus correspondingly the injurious things. Now, however, he is having comfort here but you are in anguish. 26 And besides all these things, a great chasm has been fixed between us and YOU people, so that those wanting to go over from here to YOU people cannot, neither may people cross over from there to us.’ 27 Then he said, ‘In that event I ask you, father, to send him to the house of my father, 28 for I have five brothers, in order that he may give them a thorough witness, that they also should not get into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to these.’ 30 Then he said, ‘No, indeed, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.’”



so would you tell me ... how can be lazarus and the rich man dead .. and talk to each other ?? and talk to abraham ??? and isnt the rich man here is tourmented after his death ? and concerning the word "hades" ... did the rich man left up his eyes while he was DEAD in the GRAVE !!


read ... Revelation 6 : 9 - 10 ( NWT)

"9 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness work that they used to have. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood upon those who dwell on the earth?



they are already dead .. slaughterd ... and yet they still CRY !! ... if they cease to exist .... how can they cry ?!! and ask god things ??s

Many scholars consider the parable of the rich man and Lazarus to be just that... a parable. If you look at passages that teach about death that are not parables and/or full of symbolisms, bible writers teach that the dead are not conscious.

As for the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, it is full of symbolisms that even proponents of the doctrine of eternal torment do not consider literal. Could a single drop of water be of any benefit to something engulfed in flames? No. Can all the righteous who are dead fit into the bosom of one man, Abraham? No.

Back to my original point. JWs consider Hades to be a literal place. Many in Christendom now teach that there is no fire in Hell, and that it is symbolic. So JWs are the ones who really believe in Hell.

Even Billy Graham before he died, admitted that whether there was fire in Hell or not, he did not know. He switched from being a Fire and Brimstone Gospel preacher to teaching that Hell was symbolic of separation from God.

-Cal

[timspong]

My secretary is a JW and I have a "word of faith" pastor that also works for me and most mornings we sit about in my office arguing about various aspects of the faith. I am about as orthodox a protestant as you can get.

I tell you that the vast majority of the time I side with the JW on various issues against the word of faith guy. I tell you we should spend more of our energy on these "word of faith/prosperity" cults as they are a far greater threat to christianity than Mormans, JW's and muslims put together.

It is absolutely frightening that the fastest growing christian group in the world is essentially "heretical" in any objective use of that term.

[timspong]

Even Billy Graham before he died, admitted that whether there was fire in Hell or not, he did not know. He switched from being a Fire and Brimstone Gospel preacher to teaching that Hell was symbolic of separation from God.

-Cal

Billy Graham is still alive he is 91. I had to make sure when I read your post.:stunned:

[Cal_Minian]

Billy Graham is still alive he is 91. I had to make sure when I read your post.:stunned:

My apologies. It seems he had a heart attack and I assumed he had passed.

[the copt]

s

Many scholars consider the parable of the rich man and Lazarus to be just that... a parable. If you look at passages that teach about death that are not parables and/or full of symbolisms, bible writers teach that the dead are not conscious.

-Cal

well ... but all jesus parable were from real life and talked about things happen in real life ... why this parable of rich man and lazarus be "sympolic " one ?? ... beside ... if the dead are not conscious ... jesus will not give a "sympolic parable" about wrong thing that never happens :) he always say the truth and will never get a "satanic ideas" to give parables with .... didn't the watchtower organization always said that the tournament after death is "satanic ideas" ? did jesus use a satanic idea to explain his teaching to people ??

beside ... why you didnt reply on my citation of revelation ?? :wink: is that too a parable ??

secondly : matthew 17 : 2 -4 (NWT)

" 2 And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone as the sun, and his outer garments became brilliant as the light. 3 And, look! there appeared to them Moses and E·li´jah, conversing with him. 4 Responsively Peter said to Jesus: “Lord, it is fine for us to be here. If you wish, I will erect three tents here, one for you and one for Moses and one for E·li´jah


wait a second ... isn't moses dead !! ? isn't he unconscious ?! ?? HOW HE CAN APPEAR TO JESUS ?? AND TALK TO HIM ? WAIT ... that is a parable .. right !?

MATTHEW 18:8 - 9(NWT)

"8 If, then, your hand or your foot is making you stumble, cut it off and throw it away from you; it is finer for you to enter into life maimed or lame than to be thrown with two hands or two feet into the everlasting fire. 9 " ofcourse jesus here use a parable right ?? ... waiting for another Episode ...

[Cal_Minian]

well ... but all jesus parable were from real life and talked about things happen in real life ... why this parable of rich man and lazarus be "sympolic " one ?? ... beside ... if the dead are not conscious ... jesus will not give a "sympolic parable" about wrong thing that never happens :) he always say the truth and will never get a "satanic ideas" to give parables with .... didn't the watchtower organization always said that the tournament after death is "satanic ideas" ? did jesus use a satanic idea to explain his teaching to people ??

beside ... why you didnt reply on my citation of revelation ?? :wink: is that too a parable ??

secondly : matthew 17 : 2 -4 (NWT)

" 2 And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone as the sun, and his outer garments became brilliant as the light. 3 And, look! there appeared to them Moses and E·li´jah, conversing with him. 4 Responsively Peter said to Jesus: “Lord, it is fine for us to be here. If you wish, I will erect three tents here, one for you and one for Moses and one for E·li´jah


wait a second ... isn't moses dead !! ? isn't he unconscious ?! ?? HOW HE CAN APPEAR TO JESUS ?? AND TALK TO HIM ? WAIT ... that is a parable .. right !?

MATTHEW 18:8 - 9(NWT)

"8 If, then, your hand or your foot is making you stumble, cut it off and throw it away from you; it is finer for you to enter into life maimed or lame than to be thrown with two hands or two feet into the everlasting fire. 9 " ofcourse jesus here use a parable right ?? ... waiting for another Episode ...

You are branching off on a tangent. My point is that many in Christendom consider that hell is symbolic of separation from God. You have not acknowledged or harmed that position. I understand that you and others don't agree. When you don't agree you argue against the majority view in Christendom today. Argue with them. I have already made my point.

-Cal

[the copt]

You are branching off on a tangent. My point is that many in Christendom consider that hell is symbolic of separation from God. You have not acknowledged or harmed that position. I understand that you and others don't agree. When you don't agree you argue against the majority view in Christendom today. Argue with them. I have already made my point.

-Cal
CHRISTENDOM ...where is in the CHRISTENDOM any one say of annihilation ?? at least my church in Egypt ... and the whole orthodox church dont say of it ... so you cant say "CHRISTENDOM" in general .. beside even those who interpret the hell in diffrent way say that it is a "sympolic place" ... they just say " it is a real place .. but we dont know how exactly it is " :)


there is no christian denomination believes in Annihilation dear sir ... that what you believe in ... yes some people said that the torment will not be in real fire ... but "another kind of fire" or " psychological pain because of seperation from god" but what can i say to you that i believe the bible sir .... and of course you will not reply to any of my biblical quotes

eternal torment is a biblical dogma ... may be some people "interpret" it in diffrent ways ... some people interpret it as "psychological pain" ... not "physical pain" .... torment is not always "physical pain" if you think so :) ... all of those are interpretations ... nothing sure ..
dont get me sayings from graham bill or others to prove anything to me .... because i believe what the bible say only ... please show to me where is the "graham bill" book in the bible ..

we have 66 bible books ... none of them called "graham bill"


now please answer my quotes about the immortality of human soul and eternal torment

about Ecclesiastes 9 : 5 ...... read this article http://www.4witness.org/jwscripture/jw_ecc9_5.php

[Cal_Minian]

[the copt]
CHRISTENDOM ...where is in the CHRISTENDOM any one say of annihilation ??

That is quite besides the point, but since you asked, I suggest you look no farther than the Anglican Church of England.

Whether or not the dead are consciously tormented in Hell is also questioned by some Evangelicals (http://www.edwardfudge.com/written/twoviews.html).

-Cal

[the copt]

you get me some personal Opinions of some Evangliacal pastors and want it to cancel an 2000 years Doctrine ... ?!! talk as you want about the anglican church :) .... liberal anglicans can say what they want ... because ... in the past they allowed GAY MARRIAGE ... so if they believed in annihilation or not .... they are just bunch of heretics :) i talk about traditional - historical - biblical - chirstians ... not those who gone astray ...chrisitians around the world agree on eternal punishment because it is biblical .... so you cant say that "CHRISTANDOM" agrees about sympolic hell and annihilation...or ... if you say so .. i will say too that Jehovah witnesses will allow blood transfusion ...

see ...

http://www.jwreform.org/
http://www.ajwrb.org/ ( new light on blood)


if those people who are JW and agree on blood transfusion represents "the whole Jehovah Witnesses body" ... then talk about some people who gone astray and wanted to replace the biblical eternal torment with annihilation ...catholic , orthodox , Evangelicals in general ... Anglican high church ... all agree on the biblical doctrine of eternal punishment .. so stop escaping to others and say " why you judging me ... judge other christians who say of annilihation" come and let us discuss the matter on biblical bases not on other people opinions .... the Christendom is on my side buddy ... not on yours :)

begin with replying to the biblical quotes i mentioned

thanks .. jesus loves you :)

[Cal_Minian]

you get me some personal Opinions of some Evangliacal pastors and want it to cancel an 2000 years Doctrine ... ?!! talk as you want about the anglican church :) .... liberal anglicans can say what they want ... because ... in the past they allowed GAY MARRIAGE ... so if they believed in annihilation or not .... they are just bunch of heretics :) i talk about traditional - historical - biblical - chirstians ... not those who gone astray ...chrisitians around the world agree on eternal punishment because it is biblical .... so you cant say that "CHRISTANDOM" agrees about sympolic hell and annihilation...or ... if you say so .. i will say too that Jehovah witnesses will allow blood transfusion ...

see ...

http://www.jwreform.org/
http://www.ajwrb.org/ ( new light on blood)


if those people who are JW and agree on blood transfusion represents "the whole Jehovah Witnesses body" ... then talk about some people who gone astray and wanted to replace the biblical eternal torment with annihilation ...catholic , orthodox , Evangelicals in general ... Anglican high church ... all agree on the biblical doctrine of eternal punishment .. so stop escaping to others and say " why you judging me ... judge other christians who say of annilihation" come and let us discuss the matter on biblical bases not on other people opinions .... the Christendom is on my side buddy ... not on yours :)

begin with replying to the biblical quotes i mentioned

thanks .. jesus loves you :)

My point has been and continues to be, and is un-refuted. JWs believe in the biblical hell as a literal place where the dead are, just as bible writers teach. Many in Christendom, Catholics and Protestants alike now teach that hell is symbolic.

Therefore they are the ones who do not believe in hell, now JWs.

I suggest you modify your argument accordingly.

-Cal

[the copt]

My point has been and continues to be, and is un-refuted. JWs believe in the biblical hell as a literal place where the dead are, just as bible writers teach. Many in Christendom, Catholics and Protestants alike now teach that hell is symbolic.

Therefore they are the ones who do not believe in hell, now JWs.

I suggest you modify your argument accordingly.

-Cal

ofcourse you are in a problem ... the historical Christianity always believed in hell as a real place .... and you are now talking about a BUNCH of liberals and wanted to force thier opinions on the historical christianity and all the christians around the world ... that is not fare ... you say that your point is not refuted and i say the opposite ... so let us discuss it on biblical bases and stop escaping to other churches ... i will always defend the historical christianity .. so leave this argument and let us discuss your watchtower teaching ... if you have the full truth you will not be afraid to tell it to me .. right ??

by the way i tell you again ... even those "liberals" dont say that hell is symbolic they just say "hell is real place ... but we just dont know how it will be ... physical torment or psychological torment because of seperating from god" ... the one who cease to exist is not seperated from god because he is not there at all ! seperating from god and torment by it ... it demands a full conscious .. not unconscious ... ok ?

that is the last time i tell you ... try to refute my biblical Quotes now and go with me in a real biblical conversation

[the copt]

from the catholic catechism about hell :

"1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."615 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.


that is about hell from the catechism of the catholic church .... now don't talk about "Catholics who think hell is not real place" and start real conversation

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2O.HTM

[Cal_Minian]

from the catholic catechism about hell :

"1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."615 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.


that is about hell from the catechism of the catholic church .... now don't talk about "Catholics who think hell is not real place" and start real conversation

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2O.HTM

Here is an article from the LA times (http://jbcweblog.wordpress.com/2009/03/04/hold-the-fire-and-brimstone/). I have a hardopy of the original.

It notes that there was a change in the catechism from earlier. Here is the the part about Catholics:

In 1999, Pope John Paul II made headlines by saying that hell should be seen not as a fiery underworld but as “the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy.”

As much as that seemed like a departure from church beliefs, the pope’s words weren’t all that new. The Roman Catholic Church in the 1960s moved away from the view of hell as a gothic torture chamber as part of the Second Vatican Council’s modernization of church teachings.

Individual priests kept hell’s fires burning for years, aided by a Catholic catechism of beliefs published in 1891 whose tone one priest calls “positively medieval.” A new catechism, published in 1994, uses gentler language and emphasizes that hell’s chief punishment is the separation from God.

“When you take [hell] away as a threat, everything changes,” said the University of Chicago’s Marty. “Who goes to confession anymore? Time was, a [Catholic] church had 16 booths and people snaked around the block. Today, a church might have one left.”

[the copt]

Here is an article from the LA times (http://jbcweblog.wordpress.com/2009/03/04/hold-the-fire-and-brimstone/). I have a hardopy of the original.

It notes that there was a change in the catechism from earlier. Here is the the part about Catholics:

In 1999, Pope John Paul II made headlines by saying that hell should be seen not as a fiery underworld but as “the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy.”

As much as that seemed like a departure from church beliefs, the pope’s words weren’t all that new. The Roman Catholic Church in the 1960s moved away from the view of hell as a gothic torture chamber as part of the Second Vatican Council’s modernization of church teachings.

Individual priests kept hell’s fires burning for years, aided by a Catholic catechism of beliefs published in 1891 whose tone one priest calls “positively medieval.” A new catechism, published in 1994, uses gentler language and emphasizes that hell’s chief punishment is the separation from God.

“When you take [hell] away as a threat, everything changes,” said the University of Chicago’s Marty. “Who goes to confession anymore? Time was, a [Catholic] church had 16 booths and people snaked around the block. Today, a church might have one left.”



NiCE !! .. where in your article the POPE said that the Hell is symbolic ??????? and where did it say that people Die and cease to exist ??? what i can see that there is another Interpretation of hell !! Hell exist but in another interpretation ... beside you see .... SEPARATION FROM GOD IS THE CHIEF punishment .... CHIEF means there is another SECONDARY punishments too .... Like what ?? like Eternal fire of the bible :) ....

what the bible say about hell sir ??

it say "Eternal fire" ... what do it mean ??? why Jesus didn't give use the TRUE watchtower Interpretation of the bible instead of letting every one for 2000 years think of Eternal Fire ?? If the bible say Eternal Fire ... so it is Eternal fire :) .... may be not the Chief Punishment ... because nothing is more than seperating from God ... but it exists as Jesus said :) !! ...

the result : the pope didn't deny the hell existence ... didn't deny the eternal punishment ...he didn't say that people cease to exist after death ... but he did say that the hell should not be viewed as firey world ... but SEPARATION FROM GOD as is ITS CHIEF PUNISHMENT ..

from the catholic Encyclopedia :

"The Holy Bible is quite explicit in teaching the eternity of the pains of hell. The torments of the damned shall last forever and ever (Revelation 14:11; 19:3; 20:10). They are everlasting just as are the joys of heaven (Matthew 25:46). Of Judas Christ says: "it were better for him, if that man had not been born" (Matthew 26:24). But this would not have been true if Judas was ever to be released from hell and admitted to eternal happiness. Again, God says of the damned: "Their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched" (Isaiah 66:24; Mark 9:43, 45, 47). The fire of hell is repeatedly called eternal and unquenchable. The wrath of God abideth on the damned (John 3:36); they are vessels of Divine wrath (Romans 9:22); they shall not possess the Kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:10; Galatians 5:21), etc. The objections adduced from Scripture against this doctrine are so meaningless that they are not worth while discussing in detail. The teaching of the fathers is not less clear and decisive (cf. Patavius, "De Angelis", III, viii). We merely call tomind the testimony of the martyrs who often declared that they were glad to suffer pain of brief duration in order to escape eternal torments; e.g. "Martyrium Polycarpi", c. ii (cf. Atzberger, "Geschichte", II, 612 sqq.). It is true that Origen fell into error on this point; but precisely for this error he was condemned by the Church (Canones adv. Origenem ex Justiniani libro adv. Origen., can. ix; Hardouin, III, 279 E; Denz., n. 211). In vain attempts were made to undermine the authority of these canons (cf. Dickamp, "Die origenistischen Streitigkeiten", Münster, 1899, 137). Besides even in Origen we find the orthodox teaching on the eternity of the pains of hell; for in his words the faithful Christian was again and again victorious over the doubting philosopher. Gregory of Nyssa seems to have favoured the errors of Origen; many, however, believe that his statements can be shown to be in harmony with Catholic doctrine. But the suspicions that have been cast on some passages of Gregory of Nazianzus and Jerome are decidedly without justification (cf. Pesch, "Theologische Zeitfragen", 2nd series, 190 sqq.). The Church professes her faith in the eternity of the pains of hell in clear terms in the Athanasian Creed (Denz., nn. 40), in authentic doctrinal decisions (Denz, nn. 211, 410, 429, 807, 835, 915), and in countless passages of her liturgy; she never prays for the damned. Hence, beyond the possibility of doubt, the Church expressly teaches the eternity of the pains of hell as a truth of faith which no one can deny or call in question without manifest heresy.





NOW will we Move to see what the bible say ??

discuss the bible please :)

[Cal_Minian]

[the copt]
NiCE !! .. where in your article the POPE said that the Hell is symbolic ???????

[Cal]
When he says Hell is a state of existence it can only be understood as symbolic. Look it up in an English dictionary. If someone said that the state of poverty was Hell they would be speaking metaphorically. Look up both words.

-Cal

[the copt]

"the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy"

that what he said .... and this cannot be understood to be "just metaphoric Torment ... if i said ... " i am in a state of homesickness ... that means i am tormented by homesickness .. and that i am in a place away from my home .... that is what he mean ... being away from god is a torment ... state of torment .... real torment not metaphoric one... beside .. why you did you ignore my note about "Chief punishment " ... that means Not only "seperation from god is the only Punishment ... but it is the Chief one .. there is another torments too ... like "eternal fire" :)

why you did ignore my Catechism Quotes??

again ... ""1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."615 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs."


you can notice here there is "punishments of hell " in plural that means that there is many kinds of punishments of hell ... seperation from god is the Chief punishment .... but not the only .... and so you can notice too ... that in the catechism it used verbs like "descend" wich can be only understood that hell is a real place .. :) you cannot Descend into a metaphoric place :) .... by the way ... catechism Quotes i get is from the Vatican site .. so you cannot say that it is not the "modern Catechism" :)

why you ignored my Catholic Encyclopedia Quotes ?

""The Holy Bible is quite explicit in teaching the eternity of the pains of hell. The torments of the damned shall last forever and ever (Revelation 14:11; 19:3; 20:10). They are everlasting just as are the joys of heaven (Matthew 25:46). Of Judas Christ says: "it were better for him, if that man had not been born" (Matthew 26:24). But this would not have been true if Judas was ever to be released from hell and admitted to eternal happiness. Again, God says of the damned: "Their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched" (Isaiah 66:24; Mark 9:43, 45, 47). The fire of hell is repeatedly called eternal and unquenchable. The wrath of God abideth on the damned (John 3:36); they are vessels of Divine wrath (Romans 9:22); they shall not possess the Kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:10; Galatians 5:21), etc. The objections adduced from Scripture against this doctrine are so meaningless that they are not worth while discussing in detail. The teaching of the fathers is not less clear and decisive (cf. Patavius, "De Angelis", III, viii). We merely call tomind the testimony of the martyrs who often declared that they were glad to suffer pain of brief duration in order to escape eternal torments; e.g. "Martyrium Polycarpi", c. ii (cf. Atzberger, "Geschichte", II, 612 sqq.). It is true that Origen fell into error on this point; but precisely for this error he was condemned by the Church (Canones adv. Origenem ex Justiniani libro adv. Origen., can. ix; Hardouin, III, 279 E; Denz., n. 211). In vain attempts were made to undermine the authority of these canons (cf. Dickamp, "Die origenistischen Streitigkeiten", Münster, 1899, 137). Besides even in Origen we find the orthodox teaching on the eternity of the pains of hell; for in his words the faithful Christian was again and again victorious over the doubting philosopher. Gregory of Nyssa seems to have favoured the errors of Origen; many, however, believe that his statements can be shown to be in harmony with Catholic doctrine. But the suspicions that have been cast on some passages of Gregory of Nazianzus and Jerome are decidedly without justification (cf. Pesch, "Theologische Zeitfragen", 2nd series, 190 sqq.). The Church professes her faith in the eternity of the pains of hell in clear terms in the Athanasian Creed (Denz., nn. 40), in authentic doctrinal decisions (Denz, nn. 211, 410, 429, 807, 835, 915), and in countless passages of her liturgy; she never prays for the damned. Hence, beyond the possibility of doubt, the Church expressly teaches the eternity of the pains of hell as a truth of faith which no one can deny or call in question without manifest heresy."


read it again and reply to it if you can :)


notice that eternal pains of hell is opposite to the Eternal joy of heavens .... if there is an eternal joy of heavens .... there must be ETERNAL PUNISHMENT of hell .. that is fare :)

and totally contradict the annihilation view :)

from catholic Answers site :

"The doctrine of hell is so frightening that numerous heretical sects end up denying the reality of an eternal hell. The Unitarian-Universalists, the Seventh-Day Adventists, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Christadelphians, the Christian Scientists, the Religious Scientists, the New Agers, and the Mormons—all have rejected or modified the doctrine of hell so radically that it is no longer a serious threat. In recent decades, this decay has even invaded mainstream Evangelicalism, and a number of major Evangelical figures have advocated the view that there is no eternal hell—the wicked will simply be annihilated.

But the eternal nature of hell is stressed in the New Testament. For example, in Mark 9:47–48 Jesus warns us, "[I]t is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." And in Revelation 14:11, we read: "And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

Hell is not just a theoretical possibility. Jesus warns us that real people go there. He says, "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few" (Matt. 7:13–14).

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, ‘eternal fire.’ The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs" (CCC 1035).

In his 1994 book, Crossing the Threshold of Hope, Pope John Paul II wrote that too often "preachers, catechists, teachers . . . no longer have the courage to preach the threat of hell" (p. 183).

Concerning the reality of hell, the pope says, "In point of fact, the ancient councils rejected the theory . . . according to which the world would be regenerated after destruction, and every creature would be saved; a theory which abolished hell. . . . [T]he words of Christ are unequivocal. In Matthew’s Gospel he speaks clearly of those who will go to eternal punishment (cf. Matt. 25:46). [But] who will these be? The Church has never made any pronouncement in this regard" (pp. 185–6).

Thus the issue that some will go to hell is decided, but the issue of who in particular will go to hell is undecided.

The early Church Fathers were also absolutely firm on the reality of an eternal hell, as the following quotes show.


Quotes of Early fathers :) ( read this )


Ignatius of Antioch ( 110 AD )


"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110]).


Second Clement


"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).

"But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’" (ibid., 17:7).


Justin Martyr


"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments" (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).

"We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (ibid., 21).

"[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (ibid., 52).

Athenagoras


"[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).

Ending with Athenagorase wich totally Refuted the "annihilation Doctrine" ..... :lol:

now we are so much Sure that the Catholic church and the Historical Christianity Dont believe in annihilation of "metaphoric hell" .... and it is irrefutable position .. Hope you can Reply to the Whole Article .. and not take parts from it and reply to it :)

jesus loves you ... dont go to hell

the article of catholic answers site : http://www.catholic.com/library/Hell_There_Is.asp

[Cal_Minian]

"the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy"

that what he said .... and this cannot be understood to be "just metaphoric Torment ... if i said ... " i am in a state of homesickness ... that means i am tormented by homesickness .. and that i am in a place away from my home .... that is what he mean ... being away from god is a torment ... state of torment .... real torment not metaphoric one... beside .. why you did you ignore my note about "Chief punishment " ... that means Not only "seperation from god is the only Punishment ... but it is the Chief one .. there is another torments too ... like "eternal fire" :)

why you did ignore my Catechism Quotes??

again ... ""1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."615 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs."


you can notice here there is "punishments of hell " in plural that means that there is many kinds of punishments of hell ... seperation from god is the Chief punishment .... but not the only .... and so you can notice too ... that in the catechism it used verbs like "descend" wich can be only understood that hell is a real place .. :) you cannot Descend into a metaphoric place :) .... by the way ... catechism Quotes i get is from the Vatican site .. so you cannot say that it is not the "modern Catechism" :)

why you ignored my Catholic Encyclopedia Quotes ?

""The Holy Bible is quite explicit in teaching the eternity of the pains of hell. The torments of the damned shall last forever and ever (Revelation 14:11; 19:3; 20:10). They are everlasting just as are the joys of heaven (Matthew 25:46). Of Judas Christ says: "it were better for him, if that man had not been born" (Matthew 26:24). But this would not have been true if Judas was ever to be released from hell and admitted to eternal happiness. Again, God says of the damned: "Their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched" (Isaiah 66:24; Mark 9:43, 45, 47). The fire of hell is repeatedly called eternal and unquenchable. The wrath of God abideth on the damned (John 3:36); they are vessels of Divine wrath (Romans 9:22); they shall not possess the Kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:10; Galatians 5:21), etc. The objections adduced from Scripture against this doctrine are so meaningless that they are not worth while discussing in detail. The teaching of the fathers is not less clear and decisive (cf. Patavius, "De Angelis", III, viii). We merely call tomind the testimony of the martyrs who often declared that they were glad to suffer pain of brief duration in order to escape eternal torments; e.g. "Martyrium Polycarpi", c. ii (cf. Atzberger, "Geschichte", II, 612 sqq.). It is true that Origen fell into error on this point; but precisely for this error he was condemned by the Church (Canones adv. Origenem ex Justiniani libro adv. Origen., can. ix; Hardouin, III, 279 E; Denz., n. 211). In vain attempts were made to undermine the authority of these canons (cf. Dickamp, "Die origenistischen Streitigkeiten", Münster, 1899, 137). Besides even in Origen we find the orthodox teaching on the eternity of the pains of hell; for in his words the faithful Christian was again and again victorious over the doubting philosopher. Gregory of Nyssa seems to have favoured the errors of Origen; many, however, believe that his statements can be shown to be in harmony with Catholic doctrine. But the suspicions that have been cast on some passages of Gregory of Nazianzus and Jerome are decidedly without justification (cf. Pesch, "Theologische Zeitfragen", 2nd series, 190 sqq.). The Church professes her faith in the eternity of the pains of hell in clear terms in the Athanasian Creed (Denz., nn. 40), in authentic doctrinal decisions (Denz, nn. 211, 410, 429, 807, 835, 915), and in countless passages of her liturgy; she never prays for the damned. Hence, beyond the possibility of doubt, the Church expressly teaches the eternity of the pains of hell as a truth of faith which no one can deny or call in question without manifest heresy."


read it again and reply to it if you can :)


notice that eternal pains of hell is opposite to the Eternal joy of heavens .... if there is an eternal joy of heavens .... there must be ETERNAL PUNISHMENT of hell .. that is fare :)

and totally contradict the annihilation view :)

from catholic Answers site :

"The doctrine of hell is so frightening that numerous heretical sects end up denying the reality of an eternal hell. The Unitarian-Universalists, the Seventh-Day Adventists, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Christadelphians, the Christian Scientists, the Religious Scientists, the New Agers, and the Mormons—all have rejected or modified the doctrine of hell so radically that it is no longer a serious threat. In recent decades, this decay has even invaded mainstream Evangelicalism, and a number of major Evangelical figures have advocated the view that there is no eternal hell—the wicked will simply be annihilated.

But the eternal nature of hell is stressed in the New Testament. For example, in Mark 9:47–48 Jesus warns us, "[I]t is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." And in Revelation 14:11, we read: "And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

Hell is not just a theoretical possibility. Jesus warns us that real people go there. He says, "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few" (Matt. 7:13–14).

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, ‘eternal fire.’ The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs" (CCC 1035).

In his 1994 book, Crossing the Threshold of Hope, Pope John Paul II wrote that too often "preachers, catechists, teachers . . . no longer have the courage to preach the threat of hell" (p. 183).

Concerning the reality of hell, the pope says, "In point of fact, the ancient councils rejected the theory . . . according to which the world would be regenerated after destruction, and every creature would be saved; a theory which abolished hell. . . . [T]he words of Christ are unequivocal. In Matthew’s Gospel he speaks clearly of those who will go to eternal punishment (cf. Matt. 25:46). [But] who will these be? The Church has never made any pronouncement in this regard" (pp. 185–6).

Thus the issue that some will go to hell is decided, but the issue of who in particular will go to hell is undecided.

The early Church Fathers were also absolutely firm on the reality of an eternal hell, as the following quotes show.


Quotes of Early fathers :) ( read this )


Ignatius of Antioch ( 110 AD )


"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110]).


Second Clement


"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).

"But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’" (ibid., 17:7).


Justin Martyr


"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments" (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).

"We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (ibid., 21).

"[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (ibid., 52).

Athenagoras


"[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).

Ending with Athenagorase wich totally Refuted the "annihilation Doctrine" ..... :lol:

now we are so much Sure that the Catholic church and the Historical Christianity Dont believe in annihilation of "metaphoric hell" .... and it is irrefutable position .. Hope you can Reply to the Whole Article .. and not take parts from it and reply to it :)

jesus loves you ... dont go to hell

the article of catholic answers site : http://www.catholic.com/library/Hell_There_Is.asp

Sorry, but I'll go with the LA Times article, thank you, my verbose friend :)

-Cal

[the copt]

Sorry, but I'll go with the LA Times article, thank you, my verbose friend :)

-Cal

so you just select what do u want to ... and ignore all the rest evidence .... is that what they teach you in the watchtower ?? so you do the same with the bible .. select what do u want ..and ignore all the rest verses and the whole christian history ..

i am happy that our conversation ended with that .. so every one will see how watchtower brainwashes its followers

jesus loves you ....

[RBerman]

The question of whether Hell is a place or a state is different than whether Hell is symbolic or literal. Few Christians believe that Hell is a place you can travel to in a spaceship, or by digging a hole into the earth. Most conceive of Hell as something outside our universe. In that case, the word "place" starts to lose its descriptive power.

The more pertinent question is whether Hell is real (it is), and how one gets there (as a judgment for sin). Cal is correct that many who self-identify as Christians have departed from orthodox teachings such as the concept of a God who is wrathful over sin. In that sense a JW may be closer to the truth than many in the mainline Protestant churches, or the Roman church.

As far as the original topic of this thread, I've only had one extended conversation with a JW about religion. One of my neighbors came to my house twice; the second time he brought one of his teachers with him. They were unable to answer my questions about the evidence in the New World Translation that Jesus is fully God, or about the creepy anonymous nature of Watchtower literature. They left after about an hour.

[headheart]

There's been only one occasion where they've come to my door.....

In the beginning I chased them away, but they kept coming back. Eventually I learned to understand their story and began to be friendly, but that is when they stopped coming around.

Agape!
HH