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lifesharer
March 28th 2008, 01:30 PM
I have come to a place in my studies where i am forced to engage the reasons and rules for WHY that definite article "THE" preceding the word Pneuma ( spirit) MUST refer to the Holy Spirit. Is this a RULE well established by the BIBLE, or merely a rule of tradition, or based on some other sound reason?
The REASON I must know as much as possible about this is because it bears on the translation of such passages as Rom 8: 1- 17 and other where the reference to the (S)pirit is made.
Keep in mind ... I am NOT a Greek scholar but a mere layman with many years of study and christian thought behind me , when you reply.
The reason for my question lies in a simple fact : when we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit (john 3:6) our human spirit being rebirthed; the scriptures are saying that it is the self same HUMAN "spirit" and that it was from and in Christ Jesus (1Cor. 15: 45, 2Cor. 4: 10-11, rom.7: 6, ) that replaces our old damaged human spirit from Adam. This change then, makes us partakers of the " divine NATURE" ( that perfect human spirit that was in Christ as the last Adam,) not that we become divine, but rather that perfect nature God originally created divinely in Adam; (body, soul and spirit / breath of life, Gen2:7, 1Thess. 5: 23) , that was lost through sin and replaced through Christ.
I am not going to be persuaded of the error of that position, only I would understand the historical , grammer and other reasons for the rendering of "Spirit" in rom 8:2 & 9 which would be better rendered the "spirit" of life IN Christ Jesus as we see Paul teaching elsewhere (Rom7:6 for example). and in verse 9 where the pneuma Christou is best rendered "spirit Christ". It would appear that the committee that worked on these passages in the KJV did not grasp the concept of spirit rebirth or of the translation of the spirit in Christ to us at our regeneration. This perfect ( functioning and whole) human spirit essential to us to become spiritually minded and receive guidance and revelation from the Holy Spirit ( 1 Cor.2:9-16) Which then explains the whole meaning of Rom. 8: 1-17 when this is understood.
Consider also the OT text of Ezekiel 36:27 where the new "(s)pirit" we receive is NOT the Ruach Ha'Kodesh or Holy Spirit, but is still God's ("my spirit") spirit ! Who is God ? Christ Jesus.
I am seeking constructive dialouge and information please, not argument or issues not germain to this specific point : what are the rules for the definite article "the" and where did these rules come from?
If you wish to dialouge on regeneration or those points i make in this post you do not agree with or perhaps would understand better; send me a note here , ty.
Lifesharer

themuzicman
March 28th 2008, 01:42 PM
Mark 3:11 11 Whenever the unclean spirits saw Him, they would fall down before Him and shout, "You are the Son of God!" 12 And He earnestly warned them not to tell who He was.

Definite article with "spirit"

Same in Mark 9;25, Luke 9:42

OTOH, Luke 1:35 "35 The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God"

Doesn't use the definite article. Is this another spirit?


The Greek Language uses the definite article to distinguish this item from another or any other item. Thus, in the Luke 1 passage, Mary would have heard "A spirit which is holy will come over you." Now, we understand that to be the Holy Spirit, but because of the way it is phrased, we cannot say that directly.

OTOH, when Jesus is casting out an unclean spirit, the author is indicating that it was THIS unclean spirit, the one we've been talking about, that Jesus cast out.

The article is similar to English, although it is complicated by the fact that Greek has no indefinite article, and context has to determine whether it's an indefinite or a generic usage.

So, I think you're trying to theologize a grammatical concept, and the two just don't mix well.

Michael

lifesharer
March 31st 2008, 02:30 PM
TY Micheal ,
that was a most informative post in some ways. I am convinced that most of Rom. 8:1-17 is NOT refering to God's Holy Spirit but to the perfect him "spirit" found In Jesus Christ and given to us at our regeneration.
I want to assure you that I am NOT attempting to theologize a grammatical concept , but rather to find sound reason and purpose to the evidence of what I am understanding by the Holy Spirit concerning scripture and our regeneration. The mystery of Ezekeil 36: 27 is that it is GOD"S "spirit" yet NOT the Holy Spirit or Ruach Ha'kodesh !?
What my question should have stated in it more clearly is; it is the KING JAMES translators who have applied such a rule as i discribed above, to their translation. A translation I generaly consider superior to most newer translations in many places if not most.
This simple detail of understanding then give a sound and substantial meaning to passages like rom 6: 1- 6 and col. 2: 8-13 amoung many other scriptures , in effect removing them from a mere vain philosopical meaning into a LITERAL meaning of a actual rebirth (spiritual mechanics@) of our spirit; By The Holy Spirit, BY replacing our old spirit with a NEW, PERFECT human spirit coming directly FROM Jesus Himself . ( 1Cor. 15: 45 , rom 2: 28-29 and rom 7:6 and many other scriptures.) I have NEVER seen this concept, or even its principle: the theology of our regeneration, taught by any church I attended, yet regeneration actualy occupies over a 1/3 of the NT scriptures directly or as a underlying theology to properly understand those verses! Further: the concept of regeneration has over 30 names / titles that are referencing the doctrine in the OT and NT.
All I seek was historical and grammatical rules used by the KJV translators as to WHY those passages MUST be (S)pirit rather than (s)pirit since this subtle distinction make those verse go from a confused and disorderly contextual nightmare, and arranges them into a perfectly sensible and meaningful passage, when its correctly understood and rendered as (s)pirit (refering to the human spirit in Christ/ as GOD) in most places in Rom. 8: 1-17 for example. it further gives a real meaning to 1 Cor. 15: 45 for example.
You have shown me that the "rule" i was lead to believe was ironclad and sound Greek exegesis was in fact a mere choice of the translators based on thier sometimes errant theology by NOT understanding our regeneration as they ought to have.
Unless I see substantial proof that there MUST be a capitalization of "spirit" when the definite article is present then I can revise a number of verses to make them come into proper alignment with the bulk of scriptures and this profound regeneration principle. Your examples show that it was sometimes a mere choice.
Ty ,
Lifesharer