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Duns Scotus

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  • Duns Scotus

    My wife, a discouraged Christian, has recently been attracted to Mormonism. The sisters who've visited our area have impressed her with their organization and seeming concern for her and other residents of our apartment complex.

    This has me somewhat concerned, so I want to explore more unorthodox views of Christianity deeper and see if maybe I can convert and help steer her away from being sucked into conversion to a religion I don't like. I'm intrigued by some of the more sophisticated Christian perspectives of medieval philosopher John Duns Scotus that directly addresses a popular traditional view of Christ. Scotus articulated a doctrine called The Absolute Primacy of Christ, which refutes the idea that Christ mainly had the identity of a cosmic responder. One of the main obstacles to my belief in Christianity is Christ primarily being viewed as volunteer hero.

    Scotus believed that God knew that humans never had the capacity to be perfect and so God was never particularly disappointed when "sin" was actualized. People being so ingrained with wild apparatus (being the descendants of primates), their moral imperfection was guaranteed to be expressed at some time and in some form no matter what. God, therefore, always intended to enflesh himself independent of any anthropological malfeasance occurring. This does away with a lot of the tropes that hinder many people's acceptance of classical Christianity.

    To me, that's a starting point that might possibly pave the way to belief for me. And I'm encouraged that Christianity at least has enough flexibility to allow for a more intriguing view. Or does it?

    I only know of one Christian here who holds to the view of the primacy of the incarnation (robrecht). Are there any others here who believe this, and can you explain how you arrived at it? To me, it puts a different spin on the problem of natural evil, making it slightly less problematic to me. I can delve further into this, but for the sake of brevity, let this kick-start the conversation.

    I respectfully request that seer, shunyadragon, and Adrift not participate here. Thank you.

  • #2
    Ask her questions. On what basis does Mormonism have the right to challenge Christianity? Why should Joseph Smith be considered anymore credible than any other cult leader? What evidence is there to back Mormonisms claims?

    Answer to all: zero.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Sea of red View Post
      Ask her questions. On what basis does Mormonism have the right to challenge Christianity? Why should Joseph Smith be considered anymore credible than any other cult leader? What evidence is there to back Mormonisms claims?

      Answer to all: zero.
      Frankly, she's kind of a dim bulb. I've done all that and now I'm just hoping if I convert to her original religion it might distract her from their interest in her. Problem is they visit her a lot when I'm at work.

      I'm really impressed by their proselytes. They're really nice and their concern for her seems genuine. She sees how they serve other residents of our area. It's not so much believability of doctrine as their seemingly sincere approach, helping the elderly and abandoned here where we live. She loves that stuff.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by whag View Post
        Frankly, she's kind of a dim bulb. I've done all that and now I'm just hoping if I convert to her original religion it might distract her from their interest in her. Problem is they visit her a lot when I'm at work.

        I'm really impressed by their proselytes. They're really nice and their concern for her seems genuine. She sees how they serve other residents of our area. It's not so much believability of doctrine as their seemingly sincere approach, helping the elderly and abandoned here where we live. She loves that stuff.
        You need to tell straight-up that it concerns you how deep she is getting in with this cult. Don't be judgmental, and tell her you have no problem with community work - so long as it's not about drawing her in. These people may look all sweet but believe me man, they will brainwash your wife. Make sure she understands that even if they have good intentions, they are still being driven to bring in new members to their religion.

        Comment


        • #5
          I don't want to get too involved in this thread since I have not studied these theological views in over 45 years and do not have the time to refresh myself in the primary sources. I only want to say that the words 'orthodox' and 'unorthodox' are sometimes used in different ways. Ironically, some of those who object to authoritarian roles of the papacy and church councils in defining doctrine sometimes merely substitute same with their own individual or confessional or partisan and quasi-infallible sense of what is orthodox in their own opinion. We are dealing here, in my opinion, with mysteries that are more profound than what might be much too easily defined. Anyway, back when I did study these things, oh so many years ago, I and others had the impression that the so-called 'unorthodox' view that whag is alluding to here had seemingly become perhaps the predominant view among Catholic academic theologians of the time. It had already become popular among some liberal Protestant theologians because of its ability to be integrated with the theory of evolution. In its roots, it is an older view than the alternative Augustinian/Thomistic view that came to dominate in the West, especially among Protestants who emphasize (overemphasize in my opinion) penal substitution atonement soteriology. It was indeed a popular view among Franciscan theologians (eg, Duns Scotus) but aspects of this alternative expression of the mystery of evil, the fall, and redemption had earlier proponents among Irenaeus, Theophilus of Antioch, Clement of Alexandria, Basil, the Gregories of Nyssa and Nazianzus, and Maximus the Confessor. Were these teachers really 'unorthodox'? Or were they merely able to think more freely about matters that others would later consider unorthodox? Before anyone tries to answer that question, think first about what ultimate authority or whose interpretation of the sacred scriptures is considered to be the infallible authority to which all must bend the knee.
          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by whag View Post
            My wife, a discouraged Christian, has recently been attracted to Mormonism. The sisters who've visited our area have impressed her with their organization and seeming concern for her and other residents of our apartment complex.

            This has me somewhat concerned, so I want to explore more unorthodox views of Christianity deeper and see if maybe I can convert and help steer her away from being sucked into conversion to a religion I don't like. I'm intrigued by some of the more sophisticated Christian perspectives of medieval philosopher John Duns Scotus that directly addresses a popular traditional view of Christ. Scotus articulated a doctrine called The Absolute Primacy of Christ, which refutes the idea that Christ mainly had the identity of a cosmic responder. One of the main obstacles to my belief in Christianity is Christ primarily being viewed as volunteer hero.

            Scotus believed that God knew that humans never had the capacity to be perfect and so God was never particularly disappointed when "sin" was actualized. People being so ingrained with wild apparatus (being the descendants of primates), their moral imperfection was guaranteed to be expressed at some time and in some form no matter what. God, therefore, always intended to enflesh himself independent of any anthropological malfeasance occurring. This does away with a lot of the tropes that hinder many people's acceptance of classical Christianity.

            To me, that's a starting point that might possibly pave the way to belief for me. And I'm encouraged that Christianity at least has enough flexibility to allow for a more intriguing view. Or does it?

            I only know of one Christian here who holds to the view of the primacy of the incarnation (robrecht). Are there any others here who believe this, and can you explain how you arrived at it? To me, it puts a different spin on the problem of natural evil, making it slightly less problematic to me. I can delve further into this, but for the sake of brevity, let this kick-start the conversation.

            I respectfully request that seer, shunyadragon, and Adrift not participate here. Thank you.
            I have read about Duns Scotus, but this "Absolute Primacy of Christ" doctrine of his is unfamiliar to me.

            However, I am curious...you married/stayed married to this Christian woman despite being agnostic, so you seem to find Mormonism more unappealing/intolerable than mainstream Christianity. If this is correct, what part(s) of Mormonism do you find more objectionable?
            Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

            I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by fm93 View Post
              I have read about Duns Scotus, but this "Absolute Primacy of Christ" doctrine of his is unfamiliar to me.

              However, I am curious...you married/stayed married to this Christian woman despite being agnostic, so you seem to find Mormonism more unappealing/intolerable than mainstream Christianity. If this is correct, what part(s) of Mormonism do you find more objectionable?
              Off the top of my head, the legalism. I like my drugs (beer and coffee). Christianity has a little more liberty in terms of belief. Mormonism forces too much cognitive friction, whereas Christianity is diverse enough to allow some wiggle room to solve logical problems and maintain belief. The anthropological problem that Scotus confronted seems to be a prime example of that.

              I'm not sure Mormonism has that kind of flexibility.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by whag View Post
                Frankly, she's kind of a dim bulb. I've done all that and now I'm just hoping if I convert to her original religion it might distract her from their interest in her. Problem is they visit her a lot when I'm at work.

                I'm really impressed by their proselytes. They're really nice and their concern for her seems genuine. She sees how they serve other residents of our area. It's not so much believability of doctrine as their seemingly sincere approach, helping the elderly and abandoned here where we live. She loves that stuff.
                If that's what she's attracted to then why not try and find a Christian congregation who's members exhibit those virtues? If your characterisation of her as a "dim bulb" (that's not very nice to say of your own wife, btw) is correct then in what way is exposing her to some obscure alternative view going to help?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by whag View Post
                  My wife, a discouraged Christian, has recently been attracted to Mormonism. The sisters who've visited our area have impressed her with their organization and seeming concern for her and other residents of our apartment complex.

                  This has me somewhat concerned, so I want to explore more unorthodox views of Christianity deeper and see if maybe I can convert and help steer her away from being sucked into conversion to a religion I don't like. I'm intrigued by some of the more sophisticated Christian perspectives of medieval philosopher John Duns Scotus that directly addresses a popular traditional view of Christ. Scotus articulated a doctrine called The Absolute Primacy of Christ, which refutes the idea that Christ mainly had the identity of a cosmic responder. One of the main obstacles to my belief in Christianity is Christ primarily being viewed as volunteer hero.

                  Scotus believed that God knew that humans never had the capacity to be perfect and so God was never particularly disappointed when "sin" was actualized. People being so ingrained with wild apparatus (being the descendants of primates), their moral imperfection was guaranteed to be expressed at some time and in some form no matter what. God, therefore, always intended to enflesh himself independent of any anthropological malfeasance occurring. This does away with a lot of the tropes that hinder many people's acceptance of classical Christianity.

                  To me, that's a starting point that might possibly pave the way to belief for me. And I'm encouraged that Christianity at least has enough flexibility to allow for a more intriguing view. Or does it?

                  I only know of one Christian here who holds to the view of the primacy of the incarnation (robrecht). Are there any others here who believe this, and can you explain how you arrived at it? To me, it puts a different spin on the problem of natural evil, making it slightly less problematic to me. I can delve further into this, but for the sake of brevity, let this kick-start the conversation.

                  I respectfully request that seer, shunyadragon, and Adrift not participate here. Thank you.
                  I know nothing of Duns Scotus. But from what you say about "the primacy of the incarnation", you might take a look at classic Lutheranism. Most Christians would agree that the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ were the central events of human history. But Luther emphasized this more than most. You could say that he held to "the primacy of the cross"; nothing in the world makes sense except in light of the cross. You might want to take a look at George Murphy's "The Cosmos in the Light of the Cross". George is a Lutheran theologian and particle physicist.

                  (BTW, Lutherans have no problems with either coffee or beer.)
                  "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by whag View Post
                    And I'm encouraged that Christianity at least has enough flexibility to allow for a more intriguing view. Or does it?
                    Generically, Christianity is flexible enough that some of its sects deny that other sects are Christian at all. I once belonged to a Pentecostal sect that denied the Trinity. According to its doctrine, those who affirmed the Trinity, even other Pentecostals, were going to burn in Hell.

                    Mormons are certainly unorthodox, but they believe that Jesus Christ was crucified and resurrected to save the world from sin. To us outsiders, that makes them no less Christian than the orthodox churches.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by whag View Post
                      My wife, a discouraged Christian, has recently been attracted to Mormonism. The sisters who've visited our area have impressed her with their organization and seeming concern for her and other residents of our apartment complex.
                      Mormonism makes a lot of claims that don't hold water. In particular, Joseph Smiths descriptions of pre-Colombian civilization in the BoM include a lot of items that were not actually present, including silk, horses, chariots, coins, elephants, barley and steel (more details here). Also, the documents Joseph Smith 'translated' as the book of Abraham were actually Egyptian mythology. It might help you to show that the root of the Mormon faith is rotten.

                      Roy
                      Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                      MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                      MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                      seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
                        Generically, Christianity is flexible enough that some of its sects deny that other sects are Christian at all. I once belonged to a Pentecostal sect that denied the Trinity. According to its doctrine, those who affirmed the Trinity, even other Pentecostals, were going to burn in Hell.

                        Mormons are certainly unorthodox, but they believe that Jesus Christ was crucified and resurrected to save the world from sin. To us outsiders, that makes them no less Christian than the orthodox churches.
                        I don't know much about Mormonism. Do they have some particular theory about how Jesus' death and resurrection saves the world from sin?
                        βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                        ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                        אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
                          Generically, Christianity is flexible enough that some of its sects deny that other sects are Christian at all. I once belonged to a Pentecostal sect that denied the Trinity. According to its doctrine, those who affirmed the Trinity, even other Pentecostals, were going to burn in Hell.

                          Mormons are certainly unorthodox, but they believe that Jesus Christ was crucified and resurrected to save the world from sin. To us outsiders, that makes them no less Christian than the orthodox churches.
                          Mormons believe in a multitude of gods. That on its own disqualifies them from being Christian in any way, shape, or form, even from an outsider's POV.
                          That's what
                          - She

                          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                          - Stephen R. Donaldson

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                            I don't know much about Mormonism. Do they have some particular theory about how Jesus' death and resurrection saves the world from sin?
                            I've been involved in counter-Mormon ministry for almost 2 decades. I know quite a bit. Just take a gander at the Mormonism section of TWeb and read through a few threads Sparko, CP, and I were involved in.
                            That's what
                            - She

                            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                            - Stephen R. Donaldson

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by whag View Post
                              I only know of one Christian here who holds to the view of the primacy of the incarnation (robrecht)
                              All the Wikipedia entry for John Duns Scotus
                              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duns_Scotus
                              has is "primacy of Christ." Is that what you call primacy of the incarnation?
                              The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                              [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                              Comment

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