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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Socrates philosophy and method

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  • Socrates philosophy and method

    The philosophy of 'agnosticism' I follow is rooted in the philosophy and methods of Socrates. My Tweb moniker shunyadragon is from both the Oriental and Socratic philosophy. 'Shunya' is from the ancient pali meaning nothing, and 'dragon' is the father of China, and the wisdom of China. It also symbolizes the aggressiveness of the Socratic method questioning everything and knowing nothing.

    It has become very apparent the dominant view of the Christians on this site is to absolutely reject this agnostic philosophy concerning the fallible human knowledge of God, which is the at the heart of our disagreement concerning my philosophical view toward knowledge, both theological and scientific. Some even propose to have agnostic 'doubt' concerning ones belief is the slippery slope to atheism, or they are in reality atheist anyway.

    Many atheists also reject the 'agnostic view' when considering what they believe and why.

    "The unexamined life is not worth living."

    "True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing."
    and "The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing." - Socrates

    After the agnostic Socratic view in Greek philosophy faded when Socrates drank his Hemlock, the dark ages of philosophy and theology dominated when increasingly philosophers and theologians chose the illusion of certainty over the justifiable 'doubt' of Socrates. It rose again in the period of enlightenment in Europe and birth of the United States, and was a part of the Deist philosophy of many of our founding fathers.

    This thread will discuss further the issues and problems of those who reject agnosticism as foundation view of why one believes or not believes.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  • #2
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    It has become very apparent the dominant view of the Christians on this site is to absolutely reject this agnostic philosophy concerning the fallible human knowledge of God, which is the at the heart of our disagreement concerning my philosophical view toward knowledge, both theological and scientific. Some even propose to have agnostic 'doubt' concerning ones belief is the slippery slope to atheism, or they are in reality atheist anyway.
    This is the core of the problem. We do not rely on fallible human understand for knowledge of God, we rely on God and His ability to covey truth to us. That God is more than capable of accomplishing this.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by seer View Post
      This is the core of the problem. We do not rely on fallible human understand for knowledge of God, we rely on God and His ability to covey truth to us. That God is more than capable of accomplishing this.
      Well, ah . . . yes this does lie at the core of the problem concerning those that believe that the knowledge of God is comprehensible in terms of the unquestionable absolute, and should never be questioned. Nonetheless the diversity of the conflicting claims of fallible humans seriously brings to question these absolute assertions.

      It is abundantly obvious that everyone is fallible and relies on fallible human understanding. The significant lack of consistency of absolute claims by fallible humans demonstrates this.

      Hint: Do not fly too close to the sun (or God) with wings held together with wax.
      Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-06-2016, 08:39 AM.
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
        Well, ah . . . yes this does lie at the core of the problem concerning those that believe that the knowledge of God is comprehensible in terms of the unquestionable absolute, and should never be questioned. Nonetheless the diversity of the conflicting claims of fallible humans seriously brings to question these absolute assertions.

        It is abundantly obvious that everyone is fallible and relies on fallible human understanding. The significant lack of consistency of absolute claims by fallible humans demonstrates this.

        Hint: Do not fly too close to the sun (or God) with wings held together with wax.
        Shuny, that has nothing to do with my point. Do you believe that God has the ability to convey truths (moral or otherwise) to men? A lack of consistency does not demonstrate that God is incapable of this.
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by seer View Post
          Shuny, that has nothing to do with my point. Do you believe that God has the ability to convey truths (moral or otherwise) to men?
          Ability? Ability is not the issue. I 'believe God' conveys knowledge of God's Laws and attributes, not absolute truths concerning the nature of God, and Creation/Revelation.

          This is a long standing unresolved difference between our views of the nature of reality and knowledge concerning the perspective of fallible humans, and it will not be resolved here. It simply demonstrates the problem of the hostile rejection and aggression against of my Socratic view of knowledge, by many here in Tweb, the administration, and of course you.

          A lack of consistency does not demonstrate that God is incapable of this.
          Again, God's capability is not under question here. It is the reality of the nature of the diversity and conflicting claims that fail to demonstrate that God indeed reveals absolutes concerning God's nature to fallible humans.
          Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-06-2016, 09:37 AM.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            Ability? Ability is not the issue. I 'believe God' conveys knowledge of God's Laws and attributes, not absolute truths concerning the nature of God, and Creation/Revelation.
            Are those attributes absolute or relative? And why can't He convey truth concerning His nature?


            Again, God's capability is not under question here. It is the reality of the nature of the diversity and conflicting claims that fail to demonstrate that God indeed reveals absolutes concerning God's nature to fallible humans.
            God's ability is exactly what is in question here.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by seer View Post
              Are those attributes absolute or relative? And why can't He convey truth concerning His nature?
              Neither. Human comprehension of God interprets what humans believe is relative or absolute.




              God's ability is exactly what is in question here.
              No it is not, because neither you nor I can remotely determine God's abilities. Ability is defined as to what God is capable of, and not the reality of what humans are capable of comprehending what God does.

              Do you actually claim to know what God is capable of? I do not.
              Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-06-2016, 09:45 AM.
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by seer View Post
                This is the core of the problem. We do not rely on fallible human understand for knowledge of God, we rely on God and His ability to covey truth to us. That God is more than capable of accomplishing this.
                If you were to pretend to be a neutral third-party perceiving people claiming to be followers of God making myriad, sometimes conflicting, claims about what God is telling them is absolutely true, would not this cause you to question the reliability of this God and/or the people claiming to have been giving an absolute truth by Him?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by HumbleThinker View Post
                  If you were to pretend to be a neutral third-party perceiving people claiming to be followers of God making myriad, sometimes conflicting, claims about what God is telling them is absolutely true, would not this cause you to question the reliability of this God and/or the people claiming to have been giving an absolute truth by Him?
                  My reality is to question people claim of haven been given an absolute truth by God.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by HumbleThinker View Post
                    If you were to pretend to be a neutral third-party perceiving people claiming to be followers of God making myriad, sometimes conflicting, claims about what God is telling them is absolutely true, would not this cause you to question the reliability of this God and/or the people claiming to have been giving an absolute truth by Him?
                    Not necessarily. It could be that most of those who claimed to have heard from God actually didn't. This wouldn't be a defect on God's part. In principle I do not believe that any God worthy of that title would be incapable of accurately communicating to the creatures He created. If He so chose.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      Neither. Human comprehension of God interprets what humans believe is relative or absolute.
                      That is not what I asked Shuny, are the attributes of God as communicated to men absolute or relative? You can not have it both way, that is double talk. And again, why can't He convey truth concerning His nature? For instance, in the past you said that God was compassionate. Is that an absolute truth? Or is it relative - could He really not be compassionate?


                      Do you actually claim to know what God is capable of? I do not.
                      Of course I do. God is capable of forgiving me.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Not necessarily. It could be that most of those who claimed to have heard from God actually didn't. This wouldn't be a defect on God's part. In principle I do not believe that any God worthy of that title would be incapable of accurately communicating to the creatures He created. If He so chose.
                        Actually, I agree with the above, but what God is capable nor not capable of is not the question here nor HumbleThinker's post, because I do not believe that fallible humans can make that determination. If you believe that humans can comprehend what God is capable of, please explain.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          That is not what I asked Shuny, are the attributes of God as communicated to men absolute or relative? You can not have it both way, that is double talk. And again, why can't He convey truth concerning His nature? For instance, in the past you said that God was compassionate. Is that an absolute truth? Or is it relative - could He really not be compassionate?
                          Total chaos and confusion, not comprehensible, and not the issue of our disagreement. You did not respond to the substance of HumbleThinker's post.

                          Our differences are clearly understood, and it is obvious that you are hostile toward the Socratic philosophy of the human view of knowledge, and my view.

                          Again . . . what God is capable nor not capable of is not the question here nor HumbleThinker's post, because I do not believe that fallible humans can make that determination. If you believe that humans can comprehend what God is capable of, please explain.
                          Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-06-2016, 10:14 AM.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            Total chaos and confusion, not comprehensible, and not the issue of our disagreement. You did not respond to the substance of HumbleThinker's post.

                            Our differences are clearly understood, and it is obvious that you are hostile toward the Socratic philosophy of the human view of knowledge, and my view.

                            Again . . . what God is capable nor not capable of is not the question here nor HumbleThinker's post, because I do not believe that fallible humans can make that determination. If you believe that humans can comprehend what God is capable of, please explain.
                            That is the whole point! What God is capable of. Is He capable of relating truths about Himself to us? Is He capable of overcoming our fallibility so we can understand those truths? Again, in the past you said that God was compassionate. Is that an absolute truth? Or is it relative - could He really not be compassionate?
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              "The more I read, the more I meditate; and the more I acquire, the more I am enabled to affirm that I know nothing"

                              - Voltaire
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment

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