What's Wrong with Fantasy?

[draw2much]

I post too many questions! :lol:

Why do some Christian groups have such a problem with Fantasy? What is it about fantasy that repulses them so much that they question other people's faith and spiritual maturity if a person likes that genre? How could they Biblically justify their stance of it being wrong, not just for them, but for everybody?

I want to know! :smile:

[GhostontheNet]

I myself have no serious problem with fantasy. Back in the day I used to read a good deal of it, and I still like to watch fantasy movies. Those Christians who do object to it, however, tend to be concerned with the positive portrayal of magic and the way the genre draws characters and symbolism from pagan mythology. Such Christians express concern that the genre may be promoting a pagan worldview.

[Soyeong]

I think God has gifted us with creativity and that He takes pleasure in our use of His gifts, including the creation of fantasy. The problems is that fantasy often pushes an agenda, especially when the fantasy world is very close to our own. In those cases, your characters could get away with saying things you couldn't get away with saying yourself.

For example, faeries are sufficiently different from our own world that most people don't object to their use is stories such as Peter Pan. However, if the Bible had warned about the dangers of fairies, then more Christians would object to them. On the other hand, many Christians believe witchcraft is a real danger, so when Harry Potter popularizes it, they object to that. Noticeably fewer Christians object to the magic in Narnia because it pushes a Christian agenda. I think the Christians who object to Narnia are just nuts. :shrug:

[5Pointer]

I post too many questions! :lol:

Why do some Christian groups have such a problem with Fantasy? What is it about fantasy that repulses them so much that they question other people's faith and spiritual maturity if a person likes that genre? How could they Biblically justify their stance of it being wrong, not just for them, but for everybody?

I want to know! :smile:

Because the christians are no fun. Or else they think that if they are having fun, it's from satan.
Sad thing is that I'm half-joking.

[Kane]

I've encountered Christians that hold to the notion that fantasy is anti-Christ/anti-Christian. Generally, I've ignored them. Their position was, essentially, that systems that exclude the salvific message of Christ are blasphemous, and of the devil.

I suppose math, chemistry, technical manuals, etc. are all out of the runnings for redemptive reading and use then, hey? I mean, if it is truly about the overall system employed in the telling of a story, then we should be able to stretch the idea of a system into all other areas of life that don't necessarily state their position on Christ, right? No! That would be too much like a reductio ad absurdum. We can't have logic in all of this. Oops! I suppose logic goes out the window, too.

[Sir-Think-A-Lot]

Alot of it has to do with the idea that since 'magic' and 'witchcraft' are spacificly condemned in the Bible, that any work that uses these aspects must be evil. Regardless of whether or not they bear any real resemblance to the practices the Bible actually described(which in most cases they do not).

[JonLanceBarker]

:yes: we get too paranoid in America.

[Heartablaze]

People sometimes take fantasy too seriously, putting it into real life, perhaps? I had a little period in which I did not think that fantasy was good. I was convinced by a few people that it was bad for your mental health.

Now, I am back to my old, story-loving self, but I think that most things are only good in moderation. If you're always up in that book, then it is unhealthy, as it is if you do it to get some sort of high. I'm still uncertain about the whole Harry Potter thing. : :shrug: It seems to be set too much in this world, with a totally different set of rules, instead of distancing itself from us. Plus, I heard it got unduly dark with each subsequent volume. Unfortunately, I've already happened upon enough darkness(added anti-bonus is Rowling's "D. is gay" thing.) Like I want to read something from this woman.

I do really enjoy sci fi and fantasy, though. I grew up on it. That's why it was hard to give it up last year; I hope I didn't make a mistake coming back in, but we'll see.:eek:

[T-Shirt Ninja]

I guess one thing that could be bad is if very impressionable people read fantasy and become interested in the occult. I would say that they need to be educated on the dangers (as well as the ridiculousness!) of the occult as well as acquiring discernment before getting into the fantasy genre of reading.

[draw2much]

Impressionability seems a poor excuse to say Fantasy is bad. If someone is so out of touch with reality that they think what they read in fantasy is anything like the occult, they have serious problems! It's not the fantasy novels are that are the problem, it's the person. (I can't imagine what other problems they must have if they think that way!)

Now some children are really that impressionable, I know. But that's still not the Fantasy genre's fault if kids are like that. It's the parents responsibility to keep a kid grounded in reality or to protect them until they are grounded enough that they won't do anything stupid just cause they read it or see it on TV.

Certain Christian faction's reactions to fantasy is particularly embarrassing to me. They sound so very ignorant while they go bashing this or that book. I often wonder how they got to taking fantasy so very literally... it's never meant to be taken that way.

I also wonder, do people who teach fantasy is bad have any imagination? I sometimes wonder if people who lean towards being literally minded are more likely to take that stance?

[Chocobear]

I myself have no serious problem with fantasy. Back in the day I used to read a good deal of it, and I still like to watch fantasy movies. Those Christians who do object to it, however, tend to be concerned with the positive portrayal of magic and the way the genre draws characters and symbolism from pagan mythology. Such Christians express concern that the genre may be promoting a pagan worldview.

Like GhostontheNet, I'm a fan of fantasy myself. I own all three "Lord of the Rings" movies, as well as the first "Chronicles of Narnia" and a few Disney films. They don't bother me, because I'm not tempted to practice magic. However, if I do one day become tempted to practice magic, I'm fairly certain those movies will have to find another home.

[Sir-Think-A-Lot]

:yes: we get too paranoid in America.

Pretty much thats what it boils down to. And not just in regards to fantasy either.

[Soyeong]

Now some children are really that impressionable, I know. But that's still not the Fantasy genre's fault if kids are like that. It's the parents responsibility to keep a kid grounded in reality or to protect them until they are grounded enough that they won't do anything stupid just cause they read it or see it on TV.
While parents hold the most responsibility, it does take a community to raise a child right. A parent can't censor everything and I don't think it is even good for a parent to be anywhere near that protective. The fantasy genre is not completely at fault, but it shares responsibility in enabling a problem for impressionable people.

[ElectronicName]

I've encountered Christians that hold to the notion that fantasy is anti-Christ/anti-Christian. Generally, I've ignored them. Their position was, essentially, that systems that exclude the salvific message of Christ are blasphemous, and of the devil.

I suppose math, chemistry, technical manuals, etc. are all out of the runnings for redemptive reading and use then, hey? I mean, if it is truly about the overall system employed in the telling of a story, then we should be able to stretch the idea of a system into all other areas of life that don't necessarily state their position on Christ, right? No! That would be too much like a reductio ad absurdum. We can't have logic in all of this. Oops! I suppose logic goes out the window, too.

I have never understood why,if we are given this gray matter by God,then why don't we USE IT? It seems to me,that if a book,or any work of art,is dismissed out of hand,merely because it does not pomote Christ in every breath,then that is a waste of this gift.Decide for yourself about a fantasy novel.I agree with another poster who said some of these writers seem to be pushing agenda's.narnia and LoTR seem to push a Christian one,others do not.All are works of FICTION.Take whatcha want and leave the rest at the door.And I LIKED the HP series,though I could care less about Dumbledore's sexual orientation.I understand why JK spoke about it,someone asked her.
Now,I know what the bible says about witchcraft(I think I may have to go back to re-read-was in Kings,right?),but words in a book,while powerful,are just words.Again,take whatcha need and leave the rest:teeth:

[Silver Hand]

Fantasy seems to be a big target for some fundamentalists. Remember the controversy surrounding Dungeons and Dragons back in the 80's?

And, I really don't get why so many Christians get their panties in a wad over this. First off, can't we think of anything better to do with our time than running around holding harry potter book-burning bonfires for the youth group (ya know, like actually giving a good witness to the world and defending the Gospel with gentleness and respect)? God gave us creative minds, and a solid fantasy novel is an extension of that. Usually, fantasy stories take place in and are confined to another world. Even with "magic" and "dragons" present, one shouldn't automatically assume that such elements mean to represent the same thing they do in our REAL world. Fictional worlds have their own standards.

That kind of legalism isn't any different from those early Church Fathers who opposed Theater or basic storytelling, believing these things to promote lying and thus being an abomination.

Bottom line, some Christians need to either lighten up or just shut up. Because they make us all look ridiculous!

[MarcusAndreas]

I don't see the problem with fantasy. I'm Roman Catholic and I enjoy Harry Potter (I'm Jack Chick's worst nightmare), and I enjoy sci-fi/fantasy stuff. I have the entire 5-Part Trilogy of HHG2G. It's just mindless rants from fundy nuts cut off from reality and tradition. Just ignore them.

[draw2much]

Hey! Nice to meet someone else who likes Harry Potter! :)I've also read all the HHG2G but I don't own them. (Yet.)

I guess I always like to know where the rational for some of these, er, anti-fiction ideas comes from... thanks everyone for your responses so far! :D

[AngelDragon]

Fantasy is evil! It will jump out of your book and eat your children! Or make them use pictures of dragons for avatars on Internet forums!

[MarcusAndreas]

It's funny the way some Christians will rail against fantasy when there is a little bit of fantasy in the Bible. Jonah comes to mind.
1. How realistic is it for a guy to be swallowed by a fish for 3 days?
2. And then be spat up on the coast of Ninevah?
3. Especially when considering that Ninevah has no coast?

[bentaisan]

Ohhhhhh...that kind of fantasy...

[Tanakh Keeper]

I love fantasy. I have all the LOTR movies on CD. I've played Dungeons and Dragons (and similar games) for the past 25 years. I've heard all about people that think D&D involves devil worship or wandering around caves looking to drain someone's blood. The people who rail against D&D have no clue what it is actually about. We sit around a table with paper, pencils, and dice. We use rules and mathematics to work out simulated combat. We try to kill demons and dragons to take their treasure. It's all good clean fun.

[Silver Hand]

We can blame Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson for all the D&D paranoia back in the day

[Lepidopteryx]

On the other hand, many Christians believe witchcraft is a real danger, so when Harry Potter popularizes it, they object to that. Noticeably fewer Christians object to the magic in Narnia because it pushes a Christian agenda. I think the Christians who object to Narnia are just nuts. :shrug:


The ironic thing is that the folks who object to Harry Potter on the grounds that it "promotes witchcraft" are working from at least two misconceptions. One - the "magic" and "witchcraft" portrayed in Harry Potter are nothing like the real things. Anyone who points a stick at an object and intones "Wingardium leviosa" until you're blue in the fact, and it's NOT going to levitate. Likewise, you can shout "Avada kedavra" at the top of your lungs, and they will not drop dead. Real magick and Witchcraft work within the laws of Nature, they don't suspend or violate them.
Two - over and over, the end result of the story is that magic alone can't solve the problem. Wands break, charms fail, enchanted objects are lost, someone comes along that knows stronger spells, and when that happens, what solves the problem is hard work, critical thinking, friendship, teamwork, and self-sacrificing love for others to the point of being willing to die for them.

[draw2much]

Lep,

Couldn't have explained that better!

[Lepidopteryx]

Lep,

Couldn't have explained that better!


Thanks - sorry about the poor sentence structure. My thoughts tend to flow faster than my fingers can follow them, and I'll start a sentence one way, then decide to rephrase it, but forget to go back and edit the opening. Glad you were able to grok it anyway.

[Adrift]

The ironic thing is that the folks who object to Harry Potter on the grounds that it "promotes witchcraft" are working from at least two misconceptions. One - the "magic" and "witchcraft" portrayed in Harry Potter are nothing like the real things. Anyone who points a stick at an object and intones "Wingardium leviosa" until you're blue in the fact, and it's NOT going to levitate. Likewise, you can shout "Avada kedavra" at the top of your lungs, and they will not drop dead. Real magick and Witchcraft work within the laws of Nature, they don't suspend or violate them.
Two - over and over, the end result of the story is that magic alone can't solve the problem. Wands break, charms fail, enchanted objects are lost, someone comes along that knows stronger spells, and when that happens, what solves the problem is hard work, critical thinking, friendship, teamwork, and self-sacrificing love for others to the point of being willing to die for them.

Actually, even with those two misconceptions in place, the reason some believers object to witchcraft in fantasy novels is because it glorifies working in the supernatural by one's own ability (or by the ability of a familiar) rather than through the will of God through Christ Jesus. I think most believers who have issues with witchcraft in books like Harry Potter know that the spells are not based on anything in this real world, but they base their objections on the principle that witchcraft is wicked, and that the glorification of witchcraft in these books will influence young readers to the extant that it'll make them interested in new age wiccan-ism and witchcraft.

The Harry Potter series came out when I was already too old to be much interested in them, but I've enjoyed a couple games of D&D, and, overall, I love fantasy, so I have no real objection to the stuff, but I understand why parents are concerned.

[Tanakh Keeper]

The ironic thing is that the folks who object to Harry Potter on the grounds that it "promotes witchcraft" are working from at least two misconceptions. One - the "magic" and "witchcraft" portrayed in Harry Potter are nothing like the real things. Anyone who points a stick at an object and intones "Wingardium leviosa" until you're blue in the fact, and it's NOT going to levitate. Likewise, you can shout "Avada kedavra" at the top of your lungs, and they will not drop dead. Real magick and Witchcraft work within the laws of Nature, they don't suspend or violate them.
Two - over and over, the end result of the story is that magic alone can't solve the problem. Wands break, charms fail, enchanted objects are lost, someone comes along that knows stronger spells, and when that happens, what solves the problem is hard work, critical thinking, friendship, teamwork, and self-sacrificing love for others to the point of being willing to die for them.

Harry Potter is a story of good versus evil. One point of the stories is that having powers isn't evil, it is what one does with their powers that determines that.

When I compared Narnia to Potter, I found that Narnia falls short. Both Harry and Peter in the stories were innocents who found out that they had special abilities. Harry made a stand and confronted the evil that he encountered. However, Peter kept trying to duck his responsibilities and shift the deeds to others. It was only at the very end, where he was almost forced, that he confronted the evil. Harry demonstrated courage and Peter demonstrated whining.

[AngelDragon]

Harry Potter is a story of good versus evil. One point of the stories is that having powers isn't evil, it is what one does with their powers that determines that.

When I compared Narnia to Potter, I found that Narnia falls short. Both Harry and Peter in the stories were innocents who found out that they had special abilities. Harry made a stand and confronted the evil that he encountered. However, Peter kept trying to duck his responsibilities and shift the deeds to others. It was only at the very end, where he was almost forced, that he confronted the evil. Harry demonstrated courage and Peter demonstrated whining.

But Peter and Harry were put in two very different situations. Harry had to battle an evil wizard; Peter had to become king of a country and wage war against a powerful witch. In addition to this, it was Susan who wanted to turn back most of the time. At first, Peter wanted to stay and help. Then he started getting afraid.

Narnia's characters have far more depth than Harry Potter's.

[CallistoSeeking]

Hey.
As someone who LOVES fantasy (& science fiction, which can venture out into fantasy itself!), I most def think many Christians go waaay over the top when it comes to fantasy books/movies, etc. My own mother is a Harry-Potter hater, yet she has never read the books, & only gets her one-sided opinion from radical Christian websites.
I actually haven't read the Harry Potter books, but love the movies. I have played D&D, & love that, because I love dragons, & the like.

I think it's fun, & imagination can be a great tool--it makes for great color & fun & entertainment! I love using mine.
But on the same note, I have seen the other side of "nice" magic in movies/books turning someone into looking into witchcraft, etc, & that interest is the open door the devil can use, so I also understand the concern. I think as far as kids are concerned, Christians can regulate stuff, but they can't go overboard, because the more fanatic people seem, the more they push people away from what should be their ultimate goal (as Christians)--bringing people to Christ!

[draw2much]

I view fantasy like a cheeseburger. Lets say I'm a healthy individual who loves cheeseburgers. I make them, buy them, and love to read recipes about them. Then someone comes up to me and says "By eating and promoting cheeseburgers you're encouraging obesity! Because of you people will die!" or "You must be a fat sloppy person because you eat cheeseburgers."

Which of course isn't true. My love for cheeseburgers in no way makes me obese or makes me responsible for someone else who eats them irresponsibly. Also, cheeseburgers don't make a person obese, they have to have a lot of other problems (lack of exercise, stress, etc) to cause that.

However, should I be around someone who is obese and trying to lose weight, I wouldn't eat a cheeseburger around them. Nor would I go on raving about the wonders of a cheeseburger. I know that the cheeseburger won't hurt them, but it might trigger binge eating for that person.

Likewise, fantasy novels do not make me interested in witchcraft. Nor is it my fault if someone gets into witchcraft because I read the stuff. It's not even a fantasy novels' fault if someone reads it and think "I'm gonna join [insert whatever] so I can do magic!" It's not the book's fault that someone has no grasp of reality. It's also likely a person who goes into witchcraft has other problems than fantasy novels contributing to that step.

However, I wouldn't go out of my way shoving my novels up other Christians's noses who've been in witchcraft and are trying to leave it behind. I know well enough that people like that are extremely sensitive to anything with magic in it. (Even if it's not real.)

I don't appreciate people who tell me I'm promoting witchcraft or reading something wicked though. When people start talking like that all I hear is "Hello, I'm gullible. I'll believe what anyone tells me as long as it sounds holy! I plan on making you're life miserable because you're not gullible like me! Hope you have a nice time roasting in eternity!"

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep. That's what I think. SO there. ;)

[semmie]

be careful, little eyes, what you read...

none of your posts have even touched on my objection to some types of fantasy.

i am not going to tell anyone not to read harry potter; but in the same regard, respect the fact that i think it dangerous for me to read it.

if there's one thing i've learned in my life...it's this: i am not as strong as i think i am. it truly only takes one little foot in the door, and satan gets into places of my life where he doesn't belong. i'm not saying that i would become a witch by reading harry potter. i'm saying that i have too many other things in my life to battle, to worry about the possibility of opening another door to sin and separation from god.

if that's not your struggle? more power to ya. enjoy the fantasy. but respect my struggle, too, eh?

[Adrift]

be careful, little eyes, what you read...

none of your posts have even touched on my objection to some types of fantasy.

i am not going to tell anyone not to read harry potter; but in the same regard, respect the fact that i think it dangerous for me to read it.

if there's one thing i've learned in my life...it's this: i am not as strong as i think i am. it truly only takes one little foot in the door, and satan gets into places of my life where he doesn't belong. i'm not saying that i would become a witch by reading harry potter. i'm saying that i have too many other things in my life to battle, to worry about the possibility of opening another door to sin and separation from god.

if that's not your struggle? more power to ya. enjoy the fantasy. but respect my struggle, too, eh?

My parents used to say that everything you put into your mind has an effect on you whether you realize it at first or not.

[TolkienFan]

Originally posted by semmie

none of your posts have even touched on my objection to some types of fantasy.

i am not going to tell anyone not to read harry potter; but in the same regard, respect the fact that i think it dangerous for me to read it.

if there's one thing i've learned in my life...it's this: i am not as strong as i think i am. it truly only takes one little foot in the door, and satan gets into places of my life where he doesn't belong. i'm not saying that i would become a witch by reading harry potter. i'm saying that i have too many other things in my life to battle, to worry about the possibility of opening another door to sin and separation from god.

if that's not your struggle? more power to ya. enjoy the fantasy. but respect my struggle, too, eh?

That's fine. What annoys me are those that are the opposite of you in that they condemn all fantasy literature and think that if they struggle with issues surrounding it, that means no one else can read it. I wouldn't urge someone to really read any fantasy lit except for Tolkien's works (who'd a thunk it?) and maybe Chronicles of Narnia. If someone thinks there's something in the books (that is actually in there) that could cause them to struggle with something, it's fine if they don't want to read, we must respect each other's struggles. Of course, I'm one who thinks everyone should read at least some of Tolkien's stuff at some point in their life (especially The Silmarillion) so I'm somewhat biased.

[semmie]

My parents used to say that everything you put into your mind has an effect on you whether you realize it at first or not.
i would agree with your parents.

[semmie]

That's fine. What annoys me are those that are the opposite of you in that they condemn all fantasy literature and think that if they struggle with issues surrounding it, that means no one else can read it. I wouldn't urge someone to really read any fantasy lit except for Tolkien's works (who'd a thunk it?) and maybe Chronicles of Narnia. If someone thinks there's something in the books (that is actually in there) that could cause them to struggle with something, it's fine if they don't want to read, we must respect each other's struggles. Of course, I'm one who thinks everyone should read at least some of Tolkien's stuff at some point in their life (especially The Silmarillion) so I'm somewhat biased.

i am a huge fan of both tolkien and lewis. figure that one out. :shrug:

[AngelDragon]

I wouldn't urge someone to really read any fantasy lit except for Tolkien's works (who'd a thunk it?) and maybe Chronicles of Narnia.

:eh:

[TolkienFan]

Originally posted by semmie

i am a huge fan of both tolkien and lewis. figure that one out.

I don't want to, but that's good enough for me.


Originally posted by AngelDragon

:eh:

I understand your confusion. Don't get me wrong, I do like Chronicles of Narnia, but I remain unconvinced that it could really stand beside Tolkien's stuff.

[Adrift]

I understand your confusion. Don't get me wrong, I do like Chronicles of Narnia, but I remain unconvinced that it could really stand beside Tolkien's stuff.

It doesn't... (unless maybe you're 5 or something :tongue:)

[Tanakh Keeper]

Why is this discussion centered on Potter and Narnia? There are so many other fine fiction works out there. Anyone read John Ringo's Council Wars series? My favorite so far is Against the Tide. I've also been reading several Terry Pratchett novels from Discworld. My favorite in that group so far is Thud. Detective Sam Vimes was unstoppable in that book.

For the people that don't like fantasy, does your dislike extend to all fiction?

[Lepidopteryx]

Why is this discussion centered on Potter and Narnia? There are so many other fine fiction works out there. Anyone read John Ringo's Council Wars series? My favorite so far is Against the Tide. I've also been reading several Terry Pratchett novels from Discworld. My favorite in that group so far is Thud. Detective Sam Vimes was unstoppable in that book.

For the people that don't like fantasy, does your dislike extend to all fiction?

I'm not familiar with that series. Can you give a little info on it?

One of my favorites is Stephen Donaldson's Thomas Covenant series.

[Tanakh Keeper]

I'm not familiar with that series. Can you give a little info on it?

One of my favorites is Stephen Donaldson's Thomas Covenant series.

Well, I actually mentioned two series.

The Council Wars takes place in an Earth of the future where Earth is a paradise through technology. But the Council that controls the power starts fighting amongst themselves depriving everyone else of power and plunging the world into instant barbarism. It is a tale of good and evil. Most combat is bows and swords, but with bits of high technology thrown in. Like a sword with a mono-molecular edge or dragons with wings made of carbon nanotubes. So far, I liked books one and three, and wasn't wild about books two and four.

The Discworld series is more of a funny and satirical sword and sorcery series. Pratchett sets up amusing story lines. I've laughed out loud at least once each book. Although there are some books that follow the same protangonist, not all of them do. I've got some Sam Vimes books and one for Granny Weatherwax. He also writes a lot about an inept wizard named Rincewind, but I haven't read any of those yet.

[Lepidopteryx]

Well, I actually mentioned two series.

The Council Wars takes place in an Earth of the future where Earth is a paradise through technology. But the Council that controls the power starts fighting amongst themselves depriving everyone else of power and plunging the world into instant barbarism. It is a tale of good and evil. Most combat is bows and swords, but with bits of high technology thrown in. Like a sword with a mono-molecular edge or dragons with wings made of carbon nanotubes. So far, I liked books one and three, and wasn't wild about books two and four.

The Discworld series is more of a funny and satirical sword and sorcery series. Pratchett sets up amusing story lines. I've laughed out loud at least once each book. Although there are some books that follow the same protangonist, not all of them do. I've got some Sam Vimes books and one for Granny Weatherwax. He also writes a lot about an inept wizard named Rincewind, but I haven't read any of those yet.

I see.

I've read some of Terry Pratchett's books, but not the Discworld series. I loved "Small Gods."

If you like fantasy parody/satire, you might also enjoy Robert Asprin's Myth-Adventures series.

[Tanakh Keeper]

I see.

If you like fantasy parody/satire, you might also enjoy Robert Asprin's Myth-Adventures series.

Yes, I read a bunch of those. An even funnier series with the exact same premise of the Myth line (young inept apprentice wizard managing to make things work) is the Ebenezum and Wuntvor series written by Crag Shaw Gardner.

[CallistoSeeking]

Pratchett is amazing. I love his satire & skill mix!

I want to someday read all of his stuff, but I'm a bit behind lately..

[CallistoSeeking]

be careful, little eyes, what you read...

none of your posts have even touched on my objection to some types of fantasy.

i am not going to tell anyone not to read harry potter; but in the same regard, respect the fact that i think it dangerous for me to read it.

if there's one thing i've learned in my life...it's this: i am not as strong as i think i am. it truly only takes one little foot in the door, and satan gets into places of my life where he doesn't belong. i'm not saying that i would become a witch by reading harry potter. i'm saying that i have too many other things in my life to battle, to worry about the possibility of opening another door to sin and separation from god.

if that's not your struggle? more power to ya. enjoy the fantasy. but respect my struggle, too, eh?
Kind of like the meat that's a struggle for some, but not others, eh Semmie?!
But this is a good point, & we most def can't forget it--just like some people can read certain kinds of fantasy, but others they can't read because it effects them too much.

This personal struggle theory also applies to movies/TV/music--I myself could watch a horror movie of the bloody type, & be un-effected. But show me one involving demonic/satanic horror, & I can't watch it. Same concept..

Sorry! Veering off topic--Haven't slept, lol:eek:

[semmie]

For the people that don't like fantasy, does your dislike extend to all fiction?

actually, i love fiction and fantasy. i just struggle with fantasy that involves too much magic.

[semmie]

Kind of like the meat that's a struggle for some, but not others, eh Semmie?!

i think that's exactly it, callisto. :thumb:

[Brandalf85]

actually, i love fiction and fantasy. i just struggle with fantasy that involves too much magic.

This is where some people would have to have you define 'magic".

There's a part in LOTR the books where they get the Elvish cloaks from Lothlorien. I forgot who asks, one of the hobbits I think, but they ask, "Are these magic cloaks?"

The Elves look at them a bit perplexed and say, "I don't know what you mean by that. These are Elvish robes surely."

You see, to the outside world it appeared to be magic, but the Elves had none, it was simply an art form. Tolkien wrote about this more in a letter he wrote to someone...I'd have to dig it up.

I found this neat article. A good read that sums it up. At least in Tolkien's world.

http://greenbooks.theonering.net/anwyn/files/060101.html

[Tanakh Keeper]

Originally posted by semmie
actually, i love fiction and fantasy. i just struggle with fantasy that involves too much magic.


This is where some people would have to have you define 'magic".

There's a part in LOTR the books where they get the Elvish cloaks from Lothlorien. I forgot who asks, one of the hobbits I think, but they ask, "Are these magic cloaks?"

The Elves look at them a bit perplexed and say, "I don't know what you mean by that. These are Elvish robes surely."

Well, "too much" is defined by each person. I think you said earlier that reading about magic opens up your senses to the devil, or something like that. So it sounds like your threshhold is set very low.

Whereas I, as a long-time gamer, found the LOTR series to be very weak in magic. Referring to the books and not the movie, Gandalf only does about three spells and those spells are pitifully weak. Heck, even Wuntvor's raining dead fish spell was more impressive than anything Gandalf ever did. Second, very few people are capable of doing magic. So even its weakened state, it is even more restricted. Actually the LOTR had way more magical objects than it did magical spells (e.g. Staves of the Five Wizards, Palantir, Rings, Swords, Elvish Cloaks, Elvish Rope, and Looking Glass.)

[One Bad Pig]

One thing positive about science fiction/fantasy is that there tends to be less vulgar language and sexually explicit scenes than mainstream fiction. On the flip side, there are instances where I just can't willingly suspend the disbelief required to follow the story [Phillip Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy, for exambple].

[Tanakh Keeper]

One thing positive about science fiction/fantasy is that there tends to be less vulgar language and sexually explicit scenes than mainstream fiction. On the flip side, there are instances where I just can't willingly suspend the disbelief required to follow the story [Phillip Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy, for exambple].

Those were okay books. However, I was frustrated on two key concepts that spoiled the series for me. First, I never could figure out was Dust actually was. They never stated it anywhere in the series. They just ooh and ahh about it and gave each other knowing looks, but never plainly describe what it is. Second, the end of the third book, the final conclusion was incomprehensible to me. I read it over and over and still don't get it.

I also never really understood Mrs. Coulter. She seems to be an ordinary woman (except for being an evil person), but she's somehow immune to the ghosts that affect everyone else on that dead world. It's never explained what her powers are.

[AngelDragon]

I also never really understood Mrs. Coulter. She seems to be an ordinary woman (except for being an evil person), but she's somehow immune to the ghosts that affect everyone else on that dead world. It's never explained what her powers are.

Simple: They avoided her like the plague, seeing how ugly and repugnant she is.

I haven't read the books, but you are talking about Anne Coulter, right?:smile:

[One Bad Pig]

Simple: They avoided her like the plague, seeing how ugly and repugnant she is.

I haven't read the books, but you are talking about Anne Coulter, right?:smile:
Anne Coulter's not ugly, except for her hands. :egad:

[Lepidopteryx]

Anne Coulter's not ugly, except for her hands. :egad:


And her attitude.

[JonLanceBarker]

Those were okay books. However, I was frustrated on two key concepts that spoiled the series for me. First, I never could figure out was Dust actually was. They never stated it anywhere in the series. They just ooh and ahh about it and gave each other knowing looks, but never plainly describe what it is.

Sure they state what it is. Subatomic particles. It's supposed to be something like dark matter....although in the story it's more like sentient "angel matter" or something.


Second, the end of the third book, the final conclusion was incomprehensible to me. I read it over and over and still don't get it.

Which part? The part where they helped the senile old "God" out of his cage and he dissolved, or the part where the kids couldn't stay together in the same universe?


I also never really understood Mrs. Coulter. She seems to be an ordinary woman (except for being an evil person), but she's somehow immune to the ghosts that affect everyone else on that dead world. It's never explained what her powers are.

Her zombi army protects her.

[draw2much]

For what it's worth I did mention how it's a struggle for some people. I specifically said so in my Hamburger illustration. The point still stands that just because some people struggle with something does not make it a bad thing in general.

[Tanakh Keeper]

Sure they state what it is. Subatomic particles. It's supposed to be something like dark matter....although in the story it's more like sentient "angel matter" or something.

:lol: "or something" is your explanation. :lol: You didn't get it either, eh? What are the specific effects of these subatomic particles?

[QUOTE]the part where the kids couldn't stay together in the same universe?

This, the whole defeat of Metratron, and the souls leaving the Kingdom of the Dead to dissolve elsewhere. I didn't get it.


Her zombi army protects her.

No, that was later. She said (something like) "As soon as I heard about those ghosts, I knew it was something that I could dominate." These ghosts killed every other adult within reach, why were they powerless against her?

[JonLanceBarker]

:lol: "or something" is your explanation. :lol: You didn't get it either, eh? What are the specific effects of these subatomic particles?

Somebody's projecting. :tongue: :teeth:

Apparently they are conscious and cause consciousness. Shamans poked holes in their own heads so that the Dust could talk to them. (They thought they were talking to spirits, but whatever.) That scientist (I don't remember her name) invented a machine to study them, which helped her to communicate with them. In Lyra's world, somebody invented the alethiometer, which uses the Dust to "tell truth."

The Dust is basically living subatomic matter, and all the "angels" are made of it....including "God" and Metatron.


This, the whole defeat of Metratron, and the souls leaving the Kingdom of the Dead to dissolve elsewhere. I didn't get it.

1) Well, Will and Lyra can't stay together because neither one can live naturally in the other's universe. Will's father tried to live permanently in Lyra's world, but it made him sick and severely shortened his lifespan. (If you're asking me details of why, I have to start guessing. :tongue: )

2) What don't you understand about Metatron's defeat? (Seriously asking here.)

3) With the souls, I think Pullman was implying that the Dead Kingdom was an unnatural evil (given that it was a form of captivity) and that the souls were supposed to dissipate into the rest of the world, like the body eventually does. (I don't know if that helps you at all.)


No, that was later. She said (something like) "As soon as I heard about those ghosts, I knew it was something that I could dominate." These ghosts killed every other adult within reach, why were they powerless against her?

I don't see how this demonstrates some kind of intrinsic power over the Specters. I think she's just saying that she saw an opportunity to manipulate the situation in the Specter-ridden world for her own ends. (Or she may have been thinking of dominating with her zombi "brute squad" in the works. :shrug: )

[Tanakh Keeper]

Somebody's projecting. :tongue: :teeth:

Yes, I found your answer to be amusing.


Apparently they are conscious and cause consciousness. Shamans poked holes in their own heads so that the Dust could talk to them. (They thought they were talking to spirits, but whatever.) That scientist (I don't remember her name) invented a machine to study them, which helped her to communicate with them. In Lyra's world, somebody invented the alethiometer, which uses the Dust to "tell truth."

The Dust is basically living subatomic matter, and all the "angels" are made of it....including "God" and Metatron.

Like self-aware nannites? Hmmm, that's interesting.

I wish Pullman would've gone into more detail of the specifics of Dust and why the church was so afraid of it. Do you think that Dust was part of each person or was it something invasive. I guess they must have viewed as invasive since they were trying to excise it and were blaming it for evil in the Authority's world.

My point still stands though. Given how central Dust was to all three books, Pullman could have explained it a lot better.


2) What don't you understand about Metatron's defeat? (Seriously asking here.)

Thinking back, I was disappointed at the "climatic" battle. This angel is supposed to be all-powerful, yet he is duped by Mrs. Coulter and out-wrestled by Lyra's dad (forgot his name).


3) With the souls, I think Pullman was implying that the Dead Kingdom was an unnatural evil (given that it was a form of captivity) and that the souls were supposed to dissipate into the rest of the world, like the body eventually does. (I don't know if that helps you at all.)

That helps. That concept didn't occur to me. I thought Pullman was trying to say that everyone ends up at the same place. I found it funny that some souls were insisting there were in a better place than the rest and these same souls were still afraid of divine punishment if they said the wrong thing. It reminded me of the old joke, where new souls in Heaven have to whisper since the souls in their vicinity think they are the only ones there..


I don't see how this demonstrates some kind of intrinsic power over the Specters. I think she's just saying that she saw an opportunity to manipulate the situation in the Specter-ridden world for her own ends. (Or she may have been thinking of dominating with her zombi "brute squad" in the works. :shrug: )

No, your answer doesn't fit my recollection. IIRC, She was walking next to the Spectres and they weren't attacking her. She was commanding them.

[JonLanceBarker]

Yes, I found your answer to be amusing.

:thumb:



I wish Pullman would've gone into more detail of the specifics of Dust and why the church was so afraid of it. Do you think that Dust was part of each person or was it something invasive. I guess they must have viewed as invasive since they were trying to excise it and were blaming it for evil in the Authority's world.

The Magisterium seemed to think that Dust is the manifestation of original sin, and is therefore evil. But for Pullman, Dust (a material) is the source of everything that humans consider spiritual: angels, the Authority, the human soul, etc. Basically, Pullman (as an atheist "apologist") is turning the theistic (particularly the Christian) worldview on its head. Everything is material, even the spiritual, in this topsy-turvy multiverse.


My point still stands though. Given how central Dust was to all three books, Pullman could have explained it a lot better.

:shrug:


Thinking back, I was disappointed at the "climatic" battle. This angel is supposed to be all-powerful, yet he is duped by Mrs. Coulter and out-wrestled by Lyra's dad (forgot his name).

In Pullman's little multiverse, we have an audience too afraid to laugh at God...except God is the joke, instead of the comedian. It seems that the whole point of writing the defeat of Metatron by Asriel was to show that the Authority, despite his fearsome reputation, wasn't all he was cracked up to be. In the end, that's the point of the story: God and religion are fake, hollow, and easily destroyed.


That helps. That concept didn't occur to me. I thought Pullman was trying to say that everyone ends up at the same place.

:wink: In a way, he is. He's basically saying that hope of Heaven and fear of hell are an evil captivity; in his reality, everybody goes the way of the animals.


I found it funny that some souls were insisting there were in a better place than the rest and these same souls were still afraid of divine punishment if they said the wrong thing. It reminded me of the old joke, where new souls in Heaven have to whisper since the souls in their vicinity think they are the only ones there..

Well, it reminded me of C. S. Lewis's apostate cleric in The Great Divorce who kept insisting to all the other denizens of hell that they were actually in Heaven.


No, your answer doesn't fit my recollection. IIRC, She was walking next to the Spectres and they weren't attacking her. She was commanding them.

:shrug:

[CallistoSeeking]

lol not having read all the books, I am glad I read this thread :grin::whack:!

[AngelDragon]

"Metatron"? Sounds like a Transformers character. . . . .

[JonLanceBarker]

lol not having read all the books, I am glad I read this thread :grin::whack:!

Ohhhh...Maybe I should have put in "SPOILERS AHOY!!!" :teeth: :wink:

[JonLanceBarker]

"Metatron"? Sounds like a Transformers character. . . . .

You're one letter off...:tongue:

[AngelDragon]

You're one letter off...:tongue:

So Pullman got his inspiration from the Decepticons. . . .

Now his antitheistic story makes perfect sense!:stunned: Pullman is the worst sort of evil.