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GreatWhiteHype2

May 29th 2008, 02:13 PM

In the words of Mark Driscoll, “I will lean over the plate and take one for the team on this.” I shared these thoughts this past Sunday at the beginning of our worship gathering. I wrestled and wrestled with it for days before, but I decided to go ahead and be courageous for the sake of God’s kingdom. I may post the (rough) audio here in the next couple days so you can hear how I spoke these words. I welcome feedback. Here's what I said....

We will not be focusing on the cultural holiday of Memorial Day in worship today, and I want to tell you why.

The kingdoms of this world and the kingdom of God are not the same. The kingdom of the United States is a kingdom of the world with different purposes than the kingdom of God, and it is not the center of what God is doing in the world. Now I’m not isolating the United States as being the only nation that is not the center of what God is doing in the world, because every kingdom of this world, all around the world, is not equal to the kingdom of God. If we are willing to look beyond our cultural and national boundaries to the world as God sees it, we come to an understanding very quickly that the people group God is most concerned about in the world are His faithful people.

In Paul’s letter to the church in Ephesus, he wrote, (11-13, 19-22)

“Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ… Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.”

We are fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household.
If we are fellow citizens as disciples of Jesus, what are we citizens of? (Israel, not the modern kind, but the faithful people of God; God’s kingdom). We are centrally citizens of God’s kingdom. And when we read today Paul writing to Gentiles who are no longer foreigners and strangers, but united as citizens of one kingdom, who is he writing to? (those all over the world who have become disciples of Jesus, people who now are fellow citizens of the same nation, the same people).

What that means practically is that Christians in South Africa are not South African Christians, but just Christians living in South Africa, those in Britain are not British Christians, but Christians living in Britain, those in the United States are not American Christians, but Christians living in the United States, and those living in China are not Chinese Christians, but Christians living in China. In all of these places, their primary citizenship is not the country they live in, but the kingdom of God’s people.

This is not something we can argue over. It is not an opinion, it is fact. And everyone here should know how careful I am when I speak to say most of what I say is my perspective on the truth. But this is not my perspective. It is the truth. If we are Christians, we are primarily citizens of God’s global kingdom.

And all of these countries have their own cultural holidays, and all of the Christians living in those countries have to be able to separate between which holidays to focus on and which not to. In regards to Memorial Day, if we’re asking whether God has ever used the United States in military action to accomplish his purposes, the answer is yes. But the same answer would be given to all the other countries across the world as well. If we’re asking, has the United States in military action ever committed evil acts? The answer is yes. And the same answer would be given to all the other countries across the world as well.

What should be troubling to us is the blank check that many Christians in America give to military action. We are all over the board in this room on whether military action is ever justified to accomplish God’s purposes, and when we wrestle with this question, our perspectives must be rooted in the Scriptures. But one thing we all can agree on is that military action is not justified in all circumstances at all times. If it is true that the unjust loss of life has taken place at the military’s hands, which it is, the military has acted in opposition then to the kingdom of God.

As we discern which cultural holidays to focus on a bit and which not, this is a consideration that should guide our worship. Worship is a sacred event, not the mirror reflection of our culture. We are members of a global kingdom that does not see boundaries the way other persons do; we do not fragment the world into little pieces like other people do. We are different. We are Christians.

This is why Memorial Day is not appropriate for Christian worship because it focuses on America at the exclusion of the rest of world. Because America is not the center of God’s world, it is not appropriate for it to be the focus of our worship.

Seasanctuary

June 2nd 2008, 05:07 PM

Hey, I can certainly agree with the principle of separating religion and patriotism.

Amazing Rando

June 2nd 2008, 05:23 PM

Heya, Nice to see you around, oh Great White one!

Superb message, by the way. :smile:

jordanriver

June 3rd 2008, 03:05 AM

This is why Memorial Day is not appropriate for Christian worship because it focuses on America at the exclusion of the rest of world. Because America is not the center of God’s world, it is not appropriate for it to be the focus of our worship.

Is it un-Christian to love your own nation first?

JR

Amazing Rando

June 3rd 2008, 08:17 AM

Is it un-Christian to love your own nation first?

JR

It's definitely "un-Christian" to become too at home in any given nation. The posture of "aliens and strangers" (Heb. 11:13, 1 Peter 2:11) in whatever land we happen to reside in is the one most consistent with Scripture.

Take a look at this passage from the 2nd century Epistle to Diognetus that tells about the Christian attitude to their nation-

For the Christians are distinguished from other men neither by country, nor language, nor the customs which they observe. For they neither inhabit cities of their own, nor employ a peculiar form of speech, nor lead a life which is marked out by any singularity. The course of conduct which they follow has not been devised by any speculation or deliberation of inquisitive men; nor do they, like some, proclaim themselves the advocates of any merely human doctrines. But, inhabiting Greek as well as barbarian cities, according as the lot of each of them has determined, and following the customs of the natives in respect to clothing, food, and the rest of their ordinary conduct, they display to us their wonderful and confessedly striking method of life. They dwell in their own countries, but simply as sojourners. As citizens, they share in all things with others, and yet endure all things as if foreigners. Every foreign land is to them as their native country, and every land of their birth as a land of strangers. They marry, as do all [others]; they beget children; but they do not destroy their offspring. They have a common table, but not a common bed. They are in the flesh, but they do not live after the flesh. They pass their days on earth, but they are citizens of heaven. They obey the prescribed laws, and at the same time surpass the laws by their lives. They love all men, and are persecuted by all. They are unknown and condemned; they are put to death, and restored to life. They are poor, yet make many rich; they are in lack of all things, and yet abound in all; they are dishonoured, and yet in their very dishonour are glorified. They are evil spoken of, and yet are justified; they are reviled, and bless; they are insulted, and repay the insult with honour; they do good, yet are punished as evil-doers. When punished, they rejoice as if quickened into life; they are assailed by the Jews as foreigners, and are persecuted by the Greeks; yet those who hate them are unable to assign any reason for their hatred.

jordanriver

June 3rd 2008, 10:39 AM

It's definitely "un-Christian" to become too at home in any given nation. The posture of "aliens and strangers" (Heb. 11:13, 1 Peter 2:11) in whatever land we happen to reside in is the one most consistent with Scripture.

Take a look at this passage from the 2nd century Epistle to Diognetus that tells about the Christian attitude to their nation-

For the Christians are distinguished from other men neither by country, nor language, nor the customs which they observe. For they neither inhabit cities of their own, nor employ a peculiar form of speech, nor lead a life which is marked out by any singularity. The course of conduct which they follow has not been devised by any speculation or deliberation of inquisitive men; nor do they, like some, proclaim themselves the advocates of any merely human doctrines. But, inhabiting Greek as well as barbarian cities, according as the lot of each of them has determined, and following the customs of the natives in respect to clothing, food, and the rest of their ordinary conduct, they display to us their wonderful and confessedly striking method of life. They dwell in their own countries, but simply as sojourners. As citizens, they share in all things with others, and yet endure all things as if foreigners. Every foreign land is to them as their native country, and every land of their birth as a land of strangers. They marry, as do all [others]; they beget children; but they do not destroy their offspring. They have a common table, but not a common bed. They are in the flesh, but they do not live after the flesh. They pass their days on earth, but they are citizens of heaven. They obey the prescribed laws, and at the same time surpass the laws by their lives. They love all men, and are persecuted by all. They are unknown and condemned; they are put to death, and restored to life. They are poor, yet make many rich; they are in lack of all things, and yet abound in all; they are dishonoured, and yet in their very dishonour are glorified. They are evil spoken of, and yet are justified; they are reviled, and bless; they are insulted, and repay the insult with honour; they do good, yet are punished as evil-doers. When punished, they rejoice as if quickened into life; they are assailed by the Jews as foreigners, and are persecuted by the Greeks; yet those who hate them are unable to assign any reason for their hatred.

You know, the same preachers who've reminded their flock of your points in dozens of sermons still honor the American military and they still pledge allegiance to their American flag.

But enough of that.

Now I have a choice to consider when deciding which Christian I am going to vote for, (and, being a USA citizen, I will be voting for some professed Christian)

So, do I vote for the hopeless pacifist who professes a Jesus that is non-violent no matter what , while they sojourn here in the USA as aliens giving themselves the right to withhold their allegiance, almost to the point of declaring themselves an enemy of their residence

Its as if they are saying "God bless the whole world , except for the USA"
Its as if they allign themselves with any group that had declared itself an enemy of the USA (you know, the "the enemy of my enemy is my friend")

OR, do I vote for the other Christian.

The one that swears allegiance to the nation of which I am a resident as well as my family and neighbors.

You see, I have loved ones in this USA that I am concerned about, and I like the idea of having a Commander in Chief who is not afraid to use the military to KILL people who I KNOW would come here and kill my family and neighbors without any hesitation at all (they wouldn't hesitate to kill their own neighbors so I know they have no qualms about killing mine)

IOW, the Christian who dismisses the 'non-violent no matter what Jesus'.

IOW, the Christian who remembers that Jesus is more than just some hopeless pacifist, the Jesus who kicked over the tables of the moneychangers and took a whip to them, the Jesus who is coming back with ten thousands of his angels in a very violent display of just anger.

IOW, the Christian who believes its ok to defend your neighbors and especially your family since anyone who does not provide for his own, especially his own house, is worse than an infidel ( 1 Timothy 5:8 )

Its a no brainer. I'm voting against the 'appeaser-Christian' Obama this year.

JR

Seasanctuary

June 3rd 2008, 10:45 AM

Pilgrim

June 3rd 2008, 10:48 AM

Amazing Rando

June 3rd 2008, 11:18 AM

You know, the same preachers who've reminded their flock of your points in dozens of sermons still honor the American military and they still pledge allegiance to their American flag.

But enough of that.

Now I have a choice to consider when deciding which Christian I am going to vote for, (and, being a USA citizen, I will be voting for some professed Christian)

So, do I vote for the hopeless pacifist who professes a Jesus that is non-violent no matter what , while they sojourn here in the USA as aliens giving themselves the right to withhold their allegiance, almost to the point of declaring themselves an enemy of their residence

Its as if they are saying "God bless the whole world , except for the USA"
Its as if they allign themselves with any group that had declared itself an enemy of the USA (you know, the "the enemy of my enemy is my friend")

OR, do I vote for the other Christian.

The one that swears allegiance to the nation of which I am a resident as well as my family and neighbors.

You see, I have loved ones in this USA that I am concerned about, and I like the idea of having a Commander in Chief who is not afraid to use the military to KILL people who I KNOW would come here and kill my family and neighbors without any hesitation at all (they wouldn't hesitate to kill their own neighbors so I know they have no qualms about killing mine)

IOW, the Christian who dismisses the 'non-violent no matter what Jesus'.

IOW, the Christian who remembers that Jesus is more than just some hopeless pacifist, the Jesus who kicked over the tables of the moneychangers and took a whip to them, the Jesus who is coming back with ten thousands of his angels in a very violent display of just anger.

IOW, the Christian who believes its ok to defend your neighbors and especially your family since anyone who does not provide for his own, especially his own house, is worse than an infidel ( 1 Timothy 5:8 )

Its a no brainer. I'm voting against the 'appeaser-Christian' Obama this year.

JR

Wow, I never expected an anti-Obama rant out of you. :ahem:

Amazing Rando

June 3rd 2008, 11:31 AM

I don;t think honoring memorial day and asking for the blessings of God on this nation are necessarily wrong. If it is to the exclusion of all other nations and of the kingdom of God then, yes, it is wrong. But the fact of the matter is that it doesn't have to be that.

If we take the logic of the OP to the extreme we might as well say that any prayers asked for any specific person or event are wrong because they don't include all persons or events. So we are precluded from praying for cyclone victims or earthquake victims or the little boy from our congregation dying of lukemia in the hospital because those prayers are too specific and exclude in the moment other people and events.

Sure- pray for the well-being of the nation, certainly. I don't think he's arguing against that much. Just don't allow your identificantion with the nation to make you lose sight of your primary loyalty. I think you'll agree with me that there is a lot that goes on in our churches under the banner of "patriotism" that is nothing short of nationalistic idolatry.

Basically I think that this passage from his post is key:

What that means practically is that Christians in South Africa are not South African Christians, but just Christians living in South Africa, those in Britain are not British Christians, but Christians living in Britain, those in the United States are not American Christians, but Christians living in the United States, and those living in China are not Chinese Christians, but Christians living in China. In all of these places, their primary citizenship is not the country they live in, but the kingdom of God’s people.

It's just important to remember that being a Christian comes first (since being a Christian is a political orientation as much as it is a religious faith), and that whatever nationality one happens to belong to by virtue of one's birth comes a distant, distant second.

Here's how Jim Forrest of the Orthodox Peace Fellowship puts it- I really like his expression of faith and political identity-

A final comment about the word “Orthodox”: It means, as St. Paul says that we are no longer Greek nor Jew. Nationality is secondary. It is not the national flag that is placed on the altar but the Gospel. For us, even though we find ourselves in an Orthodox Church divided on national or jurisdictional lines, it means we are no longer American or Russian or Dutch or Serbian or whatever. Rather we are one people united in baptism and faith whose identity and responsibility includes but goes beyond the land where we were born or the culture and mother tongue that shaped us.

In my own case, I am not first American, then Orthodox, and finally — if there is some room left — a Christian. No. I am an Orthodox Christian — “Orthodox” is an only adjective — who also happens to be an American, with the complication of being an American living in Holland. But being American and living in Holland come afterward. It is in parentheses. It is in small type. The main thing, the banner headline, is that I am trying to follow Christ, to live according to the Gospel, and participate in the sacramental mysteries.

An Orthodox Christian Approach to Peacemaking (http://incommunion.org/articles/conferences-lectures/orthodox-christian-approach-to-peacemaking)

Seasanctuary

June 3rd 2008, 03:32 PM

Quip time:

You don't have to be a Christian to be patriotic.
You don't have to be patriotic to be a Christian.

(Though according to some, you sure do!)

Amazing Rando

June 3rd 2008, 03:49 PM

I love quips.

GreatWhiteHype2

July 8th 2008, 04:55 PM

I don;t think honoring memorial day and asking for the blessings of God on this nation are necessarily wrong. If it is to the exclusion of all other nations and of the kingdom of God then, yes, it is wrong. But the fact of the matter is that it doesn't have to be that.

If we take the logic of the OP to the extreme we might as well say that any prayers asked for any specific person or event are wrong because they don't include all persons or events. So we are precluded from praying for cyclone victims or earthquake victims or the little boy from our congregation dying of lukemia in the hospital because those prayers are too specific and exclude in the moment other people and events.

All this to say, Memorial Day, observed properly and with context, can be observed and remembered in prayer and symbolic act or liturgy in the church with out selling out the Kingdom of God and with out maligning other nations.

Pilgrim,

Honoring Memorial Day in Christian worship is inherently to the exclusion of other nations. What does Memorial Day commemorate? It commemorates the military service of American citizens who fought for American interests since the inception of the American state. What is inclusive about that, exactly?

I don't think you're following the stream of my thought. If we ask prayers for any person or event irregardless of who those persons are, we are involving ourselves in praying globally (and our specific prayers for them should reflect that global emphasis). If we honor the American holiday of Memorial Day, we are honoring in sacred Christian worship the willingness to kill in the interests of America. Do you see the difference? Have you ever read the UCMJ? How clearly America-centered it is?

So no, I don't believe Memorial Day can be observed and remembered in prayer, symbolic act, or liturgy in the Christian worship setting. It sells out the global gospel and the Lord who loved his enemies. When we remember American military actions and conquests, we are maligning those who died at the hands of the American military and giving a value judgment as to which one was right and proper and which was not.

In regards to the desire for peace expressed in the song lyrics, where can peace be pursued where there is a willingness to kill members of those adjoining nations because your government tells you to? It's nothing more than a pipe dream in that world. I live in a different world than that.

GreatWhiteHype2

July 8th 2008, 04:58 PM

It's just important to remember that being a Christian comes first (since being a Christian is a political orientation as much as it is a religious faith), and that whatever nationality one happens to belong to by virtue of one's birth comes a distant, distant second.

Great capturing of my intent. And that Jim Forrest quote is a wonderfully rooted response to uncritical civil religion as well.

joel

July 8th 2008, 05:22 PM

...and giving a value judgment as to which one was right and proper and which was not.

Heaven forbid that we make value judgments.

GreatWhiteHype2

July 8th 2008, 06:01 PM

Heaven forbid that we make value judgments.

Heaven forbid that our value judgments always reflect a myopic nationalism and ethnocentrism.

Clearly I'm ok with value judgments, as I made the value judgment to say this at the beginning of my church family's worship gathering.

joel

July 8th 2008, 09:01 PM

Heaven forbid that our value judgments always reflect a myopic nationalism and ethnocentrism.

Clearly I'm ok with value judgments, as I made the value judgment to say this at the beginning of my church family's worship gathering.
Okay, but it is conceivable that one can make a correct value judgement that a particular American military action was right and proper. Which ought to lead one to honor the men who sacrificed to do it.

Or even make a correct value judgement that certain ideals represented by or followed by the nation one resides in are right and proper (or more right and proper than those of another nation).

I guess the issue I have is that if one is focused on trying to avoid "myopic nationalism and ethnocentrism", one can fall into the opposite error of relativism, which also results in incorrect value judgments.

GreatWhiteHype2

July 9th 2008, 08:17 PM

Okay, but it is conceivable that one can make a correct value judgement that a particular American military action was right and proper. Which ought to lead one to honor the men who sacrificed to do it.

Or even make a correct value judgement that certain ideals represented by or followed by the nation one resides in are right and proper (or more right and proper than those of another nation).

I guess the issue I have is that if one is focused on trying to avoid "myopic nationalism and ethnocentrism", one can fall into the opposite error of relativism, which also results in incorrect value judgments.

Point taken. I agree that one could possibly make a value judgment that a particular action was right and proper, or that the ideals of a certain nation are relatively more right and proper than another. I don't disagree with those sentiments...buuuuuut, that wasn't my area of inquiry, or related to my main point.

My main point was that since God's will being carried out through military might is such a mixed bag of relative justice and injustice and that a generic honoring of American military personnel for their service doesn't make value judgments on what service times were relatively more just or not (do you see how messy this is?), that Memorial Day observance has no place in the context of Christian worship.

Because whether we think military action is ever just, we can agree that the American military has participated in unjust actions, and we certainly should agree that a nationalism that elevates America in importance over the rest of the world fragments God's world, since other nations largely do the same thing.

What is a way for us to work for America's good (and by extension, the rest of the world) through our actions without being seduced by nationalism and the slipping into idolatry? By not celebrating America-centered holidays in our Christian worship, especially since we are resident aliens in America or any other nation we reside in anyways.

joel

July 10th 2008, 02:09 AM

What is a way for us to work for America's good (and by extension, the rest of the world) through our actions without being seduced by nationalism and the slipping into idolatry? By not celebrating America-centered holidays in our Christian worship, especially since we are resident aliens in America or any other nation we reside in anyways.
True.
I think Independence Day could have a place, though, if it is focused on celebrating the ideals upon which the nation was founded: e.g., freedom, life, equal protection of rights. But I suppose you can do that without the holiday, too.

GreatWhiteHype2

July 17th 2008, 12:49 PM

True.
I think Independence Day could have a place, though, if it is focused on celebrating the ideals upon which the nation was founded: e.g., freedom, life, equal protection of rights. But I suppose you can do that without the holiday, too.

Joel, I don't necessarily disagree with Christians reflecting on the values that make up the "nation" they reside in. Is there some degree of relative freedom, life, equal protection, etc in America that we can be thankful for? Certainly, but clearly America is not "above the fray," so to speak, when the lump sum of all those issues comes together. America is not "more righteous" than any other nation. It's a mixed bag.

If that is true, which I certainly believe it is, then a celebration centered on America at the exclusion of the rest of the world is not appropriate for Christian worship...or any other nation, of course. Otherwise, the Christians within whatever state they're a part of could slide into the place where they believe their state is somehow more important than others.

As a simple example, what percentage of folks, when they read about Israel in the Old Testament, especially "If my people, who are called by my name, would humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land"; how many of them make the immediate jump to insert "America" in their thinking? How many persons think there's a direct parallel there between America and Israel? And how, if that is true, did they get to the point where they could slide easily back and forth between the two?