The Best books about CHURCH HISTORY

[headheart]

Dear TWebbers,

Over the last few years my interest in 'Church History' has grown more and more intense and some of the books that I have read over that time have examined the subject of Church History from as many angles. Each writer looks at the subject through their particular bias and in the end though some present extremely compelling conclusions about the subject, ultimately one is left to puzzle together the parts of the puzzle from those first believers to our time.

Of course the joy of reading older books is that one has the benefit of being able to see if they were right in their assumptions as to what the future might hold, for it seems that Church historians love to make predictions about that.

I started reading Philip Schaff's books but have taken a bit of a break from them, primarily because I was informed by certain Roman Catholic readers that there are better books on the subject, and of course there is the rich library of the Early Church fathers. Howbeit some conclusions made by latter historians who rejected the histories of the Roman Catholic Church have tended to be, at least in their eyes, presenting a false picture of where the Church is headed and the role of traditions etc.etce.etc.

As I am not rolling in the buckaroos, but am very interested in reading some good books on the subject, I would greatly welcome either online information (under recommendation, for I have certainly searched on my own, but an informed view is the view I seek, that is if such noble minds decide to attend these threads), be they pdf, word or other, papers or books etc. Obviously video or audio would be splendid and if you are a wizz and want to just present some leading ideas as well as links and recommendations, I would greatly appreciate it. The remainder of this thread might consist of perhaps delving into aspects of Church History that have never been finalized.

Headheart.

[mostlyharmless]

Get borrowing privileges at whichever local seminary has the best library and then read all the stuff you want. All the best books are in print, not online.

[TyRockwell]

Dear TWebbers,

Over the last few years my interest in 'Church History' has grown more and more intense and some of the books that I have read over that time have examined the subject of Church History from as many angles. Each writer looks at the subject through their particular bias and in the end though some present extremely compelling conclusions about the subject, ultimately one is left to puzzle together the parts of the puzzle from those first believers to our time.

Of course the joy of reading older books is that one has the benefit of being able to see if they were right in their assumptions as to what the future might hold, for it seems that Church historians love to make predictions about that.

I started reading Philip Schaff's books but have taken a bit of a break from them, primarily because I was informed by certain Roman Catholic readers that there are better books on the subject, and of course there is the rich library of the Early Church fathers. Howbeit some conclusions made by latter historians who rejected the histories of the Roman Catholic Church have tended to be, at least in their eyes, presenting a false picture of where the Church is headed and the role of traditions etc.etce.etc.

As I am not rolling in the buckaroos, but am very interested in reading some good books on the subject, I would greatly welcome either online information (under recommendation, for I have certainly searched on my own, but an informed view is the view I seek, that is if such noble minds decide to attend these threads), be they pdf, word or other, papers or books etc. Obviously video or audio would be splendid and if you are a wizz and want to just present some leading ideas as well as links and recommendations, I would greatly appreciate it. The remainder of this thread might consist of perhaps delving into aspects of Church History that have never been finalized.

Headheart.

Last I heard, Church history is ongoing. :lol: ...to be continued until the end! :teeth:

[headheart]

Get borrowing privileges at whichever local seminary has the best library and then read all the stuff you want. All the best books are in print, not online.


Actually all the best books are either old or out of print. Are you sure Seminary books are the type that present an unbiased point of view ? The idea is not to read further biased literature but to read some that paints as it were with a broader brush. What do you think of Philip Schaff's (http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/About.htm)histories ( try ccel.org ) ?

Any thoughts on my final question ? (....aspects of Church History that have never been finalized.)


Headheart

[headheart]

Last I heard, Church history is ongoing. :lol: ...to be continued until the end! :teeth:


Events are ongoing, but history is the record of past events, either verified or not etc.

:teeth:

[TyRockwell]

Events are ongoing, but history is the record of past events, either verified or not etc.

:teeth:

I agree with that statement, as far as it goes. I was expecting your response so I could add:

Church history is a record of its growth to maturity in order to accomplish what God's word reveals that we are to do.

On the other hand, the Bible shows us where we are headed, as we do what God intends. It is pre-written history, and as such is the Best Book on church history! :teeth:

[One Bad Pig]

Actually all the best books are either old or out of print.
I'd think the best books would stay in print.

Are you sure Seminary books are the type that present an unbiased point of view ? The idea is not to read further biased literature but to read some that paints as it were with a broader brush.
Sorry, ALL points of view are biased. Your best bet is to read as extensively as possible, from the East as well as the West. Here's a snippet from the East (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/history.aspx).


What do you think of Philip Schaff's (http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/About.htm)histories ( try ccel.org ) ?
I haven't gotten around to reading those yet.


Any thoughts on my final question ? (....aspects of Church History that have never been finalized.)


Headheart
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at with that question.

[mostlyharmless]

Actually all the best books are either old or out of print. Are you sure Seminary books are the type that present an unbiased point of view ? The idea is not to read further biased literature but to read some that paints as it were with a broader brush. What do you think of Philip Schaff's (http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/About.htm)histories ( try ccel.org ) ?

Any thoughts on my final question ? (....aspects of Church History that have never been finalized.)


I think you will find seminaries full of out of print books :tongue:. And anything that you find online will be in a good seminary so I don't quite understand your bias against these places. If you want good books on Christian religion you naturally should look in a Christian library. I have read the translation of ECF's on ccel.org which are a good starting point though very outdated in translation.

Have not read Schaff's histories as they are pretty old. I greatly enjoyed Jaroslav Pelikan who is celebrated for his mastery of Christian history and doctrine. All historical writing is biased by its very nature so there is no point trying to escape that, its better that the writer is just honest about their biases so the reader can take certain aspects of their view with a grain of salt.

Your other question is to broad to be answerable.

[headheart]

................the Best Book on church history! :teeth:


I would not disagree with you, but surely you must recognize the historical value of the apocryphal writings as well as the writings of secular historians and the Early Church Fathers as well as the history of the Church after the book of Acts, until now ?

Headheart

[headheart]

I'd think the best books would stay in print.


I have a few books and others that I have lost (what a foolish man) that are no longer in print and cover apects of Church History that are insightful simply because of their age. Over the years though I have noticed some of the books I treasure appear on the internet. (This is unrelated, but I wish I could get a hold of John D. Woodbridges library. I recently missed a golden opportunity at aquiring a library of books like this. Bother!)



Sorry, ALL points of view are biased. Your best bet is to read as extensively as possible, from the East as well as the West.
[/quote]

Well, you can't blame a boy for dreaming. Perhaps if I read widely enough I can write one like that :lol: Actually, I am sure that there are books like that but one has to read an awful lot to make any final conclusions. It is all so exciting, though I guess my sons would not agree :lol:



Here's a snippet from the East (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/history.aspx).


It is moments like this that really keep me coming back to forums like this. I am bursting with enthusiasm to add this to my current reading list. Thank-you so much!

(((This page was originally created by monks at Decani Monastery in Kosovo.))) < they certainly had the time :)



I haven't gotten around to reading those yet.


I think you will enjoy it, if not for the fact that it presents yet another perspective on Church History. I think it creates a very good framework upon which to explore the details and add the gaps and perspectives of others. Oh goodness me I am not going to do this, I can see myself being drawn into writing yet another book. I just do not have the time or strength to weather twenty years or so. My current write has been in the fire for nearly seven years (actually I lost count)



I'm not quite sure what you're getting at with that question.


Well, if one has a broad reading of Church History these would become more apparent, I mean I conclude this based on the fact that such difficulties have been negotiated in relation to the gospels by textual critics, who have pretty much resolved all the major issues. In the same way it is my conclusion that with all traditions there is this ongoing examination of their historical, geographical, archeological accuracy and veracity etc.

Headheart.

[headheart]

I think you will find seminaries full of out of print books :tongue:. And anything that you find online will be in a good seminary so I don't quite understand your bias against these places. If you want good books on Christian religion you naturally should look in a Christian library. I have read the translation of ECF's on ccel.org which are a good starting point though very outdated in translation.


Undeniably there is immense value in the writings of the Early Church Fathers. I guess my only reason for avoiding Seminaries is because as with every institution, there is always a primary thrust that one has to take into consideration when delving into a particular archive, I just want to avoid getting swamped with too many singular perspectives and instead read something that has already negotiated the many conflicting opinions on aspects of Church History. Perhaps though I will find such documents at a particular Seminary, University, Bible College, Monastry or maybe a friend who has negotiated the various perspectives already. Savvy?



Have not read Schaff's histories as they are pretty old.


Oh. I cannot help myself, I am deeply attracted to that word..."OLD" :blush:



I greatly enjoyed Jaroslav Pelikan who is celebrated for his mastery of Christian history and doctrine.


Now that is a name I have never heard. Titles ?



All historical writing is biased by its very nature so there is no point trying to escape that, ....

I think you might have written it this way and I would have agreed with you.

'Most historical writing is biased by it's very nature, but this can be rectified if enough eye witness documents agree on essentials.'



.......its better that the writer is just honest about their biases so the reader can take certain aspects of their view with a grain of salt.


Oh, yes that is most refreshing. In particular I enjoy C.S. Lewis in this regard.



Your other question is to broad to be answerable.


I am aware of that, it might be better to start another thread delving into aspects of Church History that have never been finalized.

off-topic: Do you have a copy of the Targum Neofiti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targum) ref: Catholic Encyclopedia (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14454b.htm) ---> Hagiographa chaldaice ?

Headheart

[TyRockwell]

I would not disagree with you, but surely you must recognize the historical value of the apocryphal writings as well as the writings of secular historians and the Early Church Fathers as well as the history of the Church after the book of Acts, until now ?

Headheart
I see the importance of the apocryphal books and historians, secular or religious.

However, I think most of the 'ECFs' writings are interpretive and commentary and have introduced many errors.

TyRockwell

[TyRockwell]

I think you will enjoy it, if not for the fact that it presents yet another perspective on Church History. I think it creates a very good framework upon which to explore the details and add the gaps and perspectives of others. Oh goodness me I am not going to do this, I can see myself being drawn into writing yet another book. I just do not have the time or strength to weather twenty years or so. My current write has been in the fire for nearly seven years (actually I lost count)



Well, if one has a broad reading of Church History these would become more apparent, I mean I conclude this based on the fact that such difficulties have been negotiated in relation to the gospels by textual critics, who have pretty much resolved all the major issues. In the same way it is my conclusion that with all traditions there is this ongoing examination of their historical, geographical, archeological accuracy and veracity etc.

Headheart.

What books have you written? Are they available online?

[headheart]

I see the importance of the apocryphal books and historians, secular or religious.


Yes. :teeth:



However, I think most of the 'ECFs' writings are interpretive and commentary and have introduced many errors.


I might have written your statement this way, 'However, I think [some] of the ECF's writings are interpretive and commentary and have introduced [some] errors. Would you please mention some of these ECF's and their errors ?

Headheart

[headheart]

What books have you written?


This should probably go under my profile. :O)

With the help of the Lord....

I have written a bit about the Occult and the Cults, as well as short story, "Abraxas to Jesus" (http://uk.geocities.com/the_god_question/abraxastojesus.htm)(my testimony). I also wrote an expose about the 'Purpose Driven Life" (circa. 2004) and helped in preparing two books for the internet, one is about 'Eternal Preservation' and the other one is about 'Satan'. ( Anything I have not linked to you will find at Delusion Resistance (http://www.delusionresistance.org/map.html))

Over the last seven years I have been working on a book about death, resurrection and the afterlife and hope I live long enough firstly to finish it, and secondly to attend to the many errors in my earlier writings. (((Retractions))

My main outlet onto the internet is through music, though I love writing poetry and drawing with pastels. I have to date recorded eight Cd's. link (http://www.myspace.com/ericsawyer4jesus) and recently recorded an album in Los Angeles with Mike Pachelli and Randy Stonehill at Fullblast Studios, titled, "Peace Dove". (http://cdbaby.com/cd/ericjohnsawyer)

Headheart

[TyRockwell]

Yes. :teeth:

I might have written your statement this way, 'However, I think [some] of the ECF's writings are interpretive and commentary and have introduced [some] errors.
I can agree with that.


Would you please mention some of these ECF's and their errors ?

Headheart

I don't have those specifics at hand, and I have not noted who said exactly what. I have read some of their writings and I think some of the eschatology is wrong. I believe Daniel was still sealed to them, and until the mid 1990s.

I also consider the ECF's transference of the position of 'priest' from Judaism into an hierarchical authority in the church as a grave error.

Ty

[headheart]

I can agree with that.


Yes.



I don't have those specifics at hand, and I have not noted who said exactly what. I have read some of their writings and I think some of the eschatology is wrong. I believe Daniel was still sealed to them, and until the mid 1990s.

I also consider the ECF's transference of the position of 'priest' from Judaism into an hierarchical authority in the church as a grave error.


From my opening post:

The remainder of this thread might consist of perhaps delving into aspects of Church History that have never been finalized.

Ty,
I am not really interested in arguing whether or not certain aspects of Church History were grave errors or not, but rather establishing which aspects of Church History have been accurately recorded, and which have not. It is the loose ends that I am interest me.

If you wish to argue about 'grave errors', start another thread so you can argue directly with those who are apologists in the Roman Catholic Church, but you had better polish up on your Church History first. :D)

Headheart

[Adrift]

headheart, I've mentioned this book before in another thread, and it really is sort of elementary, but I think that a great overview of Church History can be found in The Oxford Illustrated History of Christianity (http://www.amazon.com/Oxford-Illustrated-History-Christianity-Histories/dp/0192854399)

[JonLanceBarker]

Now that is a name I have never heard. Titles ?

Jaroslav Pelikan wrote a series of books called History of the Christian Tradition. (I think it's called that, anyway.)

The first book, Emergence of the Catholic Tradition, covers about 100 to 600 AD. The beginning is a good place to start; I found it quite illuminating.

Haven't yet read the rest of the series, but I badly want to!! :smile:

[mostlyharmless]

Jaroslav Pelikan wrote a series of books called History of the Christian Tradition. (I think it's called that, anyway.)

The first book, Emergence of the Catholic Tradition, covers about 100 to 600 AD. The beginning is a good place to start; I found it quite illuminating.

Haven't yet read the rest of the series, but I badly want to!! :smile:

The rest of the series is excellent as well, though the last one on the modern period not so much, mainly because its a lot less interesting and also church doctrine has become so fragmented that you just cant cover it all.

[JonLanceBarker]

The rest of the series is excellent as well, though the last one on the modern period not so much, mainly because its a lot less interesting and also church doctrine has become so fragmented that you just cant cover it all.

In other words, he ends the series on a tragic note. :sad:

[headheart]

headheart, I've mentioned this book before in another thread, and it really is sort of elementary, but I think that a great overview of Church History can be found in The Oxford Illustrated History of Christianity (http://www.amazon.com/Oxford-Illustrated-History-Christianity-Histories/dp/0192854399)


Thank-you Adrift.

I followed the link and it is written by John McManners. ((..it has a nice looking cover...))

Headheart.

[headheart]

In other words, he ends the series on a tragic note. :sad:


Christian Tradition - A History of the Development of Doctrine ( written between 1973 & 1990 ? )

Volume 1 : Emergence of the Catholic Tradition 100-600 AD
Volume 2 : The Spirit of Eastern Christendom 600-1700 AD
Volume 3 : The Growth of Medieval Theology 600-1300 AD
Volume 4 : Reformation of Church and Dogma 1300-1700 AD
Volume 5 : Christian Doctrine and Modern Culture since 1700 AD

by Jaroslav Pelikan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaroslav_Pelikan)(Author) --- link (http://www.amazon.com/Christian-Tradition-Development-Doctrine-Emergence/dp/0226653714/ref=pd_sim_b_3) (Series)

This is quite a series for those who are interested in the Doctrinal aspect of Church History. I think I am looking for something that is a lot broader, something that is more like the book of Acts continued. :0) - which records the events and not just the beliefs or differences about doctrine etc.

I think 'The Oxford Illustrated History of Christianity' by John McManners is probably closer to what I am interested in reading. Not that this will not be a good read, I will certainly have quite a bit to read to explore the details of the events; not just the religious and philosophical / theological arguments and discussion, and councils etc etc. I guess I would be interested in bloody wars as well as the miraculous and glorious revivals and renewals, miracles and day to day life of believers from the time of the first disciples, to now.

It would be nice to bring it up to our time and the wonderful unity that is being lived by those who are more interested in celebrating their unity in Christ than arguing about who is the right leader, or who has the right doctrine.

Headheart

[headheart]

The rest of the series is excellent as well, though the last one on the modern period not so much, mainly because its a lot less interesting and also church doctrine has become so fragmented that you just cant cover it all.


As I already explained in the previous comment, I am less interested in the doctrinal development and more in the life of the disciples of Jesus from the earliest of time until now, basically Acts (Part 2). You know the day to day stuff, miracles, revivals, bloody wars and perhaps the schizmatics and heretics and the sort of things they got up to. More about the events than the psycho-dramas of those whose Christianity was more in their heads than their hearts and lives, basically the action as oppossed to the mind games.

Headheart

[headheart]

The rest of the series is excellent as well, though the last one on the modern period not so much, mainly because its a lot less interesting and also church doctrine has become so fragmented that you just cant cover it all.


History is like that, looking back one tends to record the details that are worthwhile and most accurately recorded etc. While one is negotiating the present there are always so many things demanding consideration that it is difficult to decide which will ultimately yield the most interesting end, even if it is bloody or catastrophic.

I see there is quite an extensive list of books written by Jaroslav Pelikan (http://jaroslavpelikan.blogspot.com/2007/09/books-by-jaroslav-pelika.html)at a location on blogspot.com and this one in particular might certainly be a very good read.

Jesus Through the Centuries: His Place in the History of Culture (1985) Yale U. Press, ISBN 0-300-07987-7 (http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-through-Centuries-History-Culture/dp/0300079877?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1190094139&sr=1-2)

In fact I think there is a tremendous much to be read an enjoyed by this writer.

Thanks to Jon Lance Barker

[Adrift]

Thank-you Adrift.

I followed the link and it is written by John McManners. ((..it has a nice looking cover...))

Headheart.

Yes, well to be precise, its compiled by McManners, but really its a collection of 19 essays (with pictures! :lol:) from top scholars in their field. Again, its simply an overview, but it was a great introduction for me. I just wish it focused more on the early period. Anyways, writing about this makes me want to dig it back out again and review it again.

[TyRockwell]

Yes.

Ty,
I am not really interested in arguing whether or not certain aspects of Church History were grave errors or not, but rather establishing which aspects of Church History have been accurately recorded, and which have not. It is the loose ends that I am interest me.

If you wish to argue about 'grave errors', start another thread so you can argue directly with those who are apologists in the Roman Catholic Church, but you had better polish up on your Church History first. :D)

Headheart

I was responding to what you mentioned, 'ECFs.' Where do you draw the line between ECFs and later church history?

[Adrift]

I was responding to what you mentioned, 'ECFs.' Where do you draw the line between ECFs and later church history?

According to several encyclopedia's I've looked through (Wiki, encyclopedia.com, Encarta) it appears that the ECF's cover church history from approx. the second century up to the 6th (or slightly later).

[One Bad Pig]

Okay, that's 7 new books on my wish list. :sigh:

[headheart]

Yes, well to be precise, its compiled by McManners, but really its a collection of 19 essays (with pictures! :lol:) from top scholars in their field. Again, its simply an overview, but it was a great introduction for me. I just wish it focused more on the early period. Anyways, writing about this makes me want to dig it back out again and review it again.


I bet the bibliograpaphy is a magical resourse for the History of the Church. (not neccesarily 'doctrine') I would love to get a look at it sometime...

I am a little tired after the angioplasty, so I am going to make this my last reply on threads.

:thumb:

headheart

[Alan3838]

Yes.



From my opening post:


Ty,
I am not really interested in arguing whether or not certain aspects of Church History were grave errors or not, but rather establishing which aspects of Church History have been accurately recorded, and which have not. It is the loose ends that I am interest me.

If you wish to argue about 'grave errors', start another thread so you can argue directly with those who are apologists in the Roman Catholic Church, but you had better polish up on your Church History first. :D)

Headheart

www.ccel.org
Hope this helps. It is free

[Kelp]

I bet the bibliograpaphy is a magical resourse for the History of the Church. (not neccesarily 'doctrine') I would love to get a look at it sometime...

I am a little tired after the angioplasty, so I am going to make this my last reply on threads.

:thumb:

headheart
I hope you feel better! :pray:

[ravenlorre]

I really appreciated the scholarship of Jaroslav Pelikan, as well; although, I did find them difficult to read and really had to make a commitment to make it through the series. I have also read some of his other books on the life of Christ and the Bible. I think it is also interesting that after a lifetime of scholarship, he decided to join the Orthodox Church at the age of 90.

blessings

[JonLanceBarker]

I really appreciated the scholarship of Jaroslav Pelikan, as well; although, I did find them difficult to read and really had to make a commitment to make it through the series. I have also read some of his other books on the life of Christ and the Bible. I think it is also interesting that after a lifetime of scholarship, he decided to join the Orthodox Church at the age of 90.

blessings

:teeth:

[headheart]

www.ccel.org
Hope this helps. It is free

Yes, I have been a visitor and a member for some time now.

Though I learned about Philip Schaff during my participation on the B.I.O.L.A. forums, I accessed it through ccel.org, and it is now in my own archive. :teeth:

Over the years I have come to really appreciate the resourse and actually have a considerable library of my own. ((ccel.org is free, in some respect but donations are always welcome but some things are not.))

For those who participated in this thread from the beginning and have been following the flow of conversation, I managed to find some pretty good books at a library nearby. In particular; 'The Early Church in Eastern England' by Margaret Gallyon, 'The Oxford Dictionary of Saints' and 'Reformation - Europe's House Divided - 1490 - 1700' by Diarmaid MacCulloch. I started reading the last one, but as I am not studying alone, it has been borrowed and that suits me fine, because I am writing at the moment and it is proving to be too much of a distraction. So I am sticking to jumps in the puddles that C.S. Lewis left and heavenly pasture. Composing and creating a new pastel as well as homestudio work continues.

Kelp(p) My health is improving and though there is a possibility of another procedure on an artery at the back of the heart, I am eating right, walking a bit etc.

JLB...please try to make useful comments and not just silly icons.

Thanks for the input.
Headheart

[headheart]

I really appreciated the scholarship of Jaroslav Pelikan, as well; although, I did find them difficult to read and really had to make a commitment to make it through the series. I have also read some of his other books on the life of Christ and the Bible. I think it is also interesting that after a lifetime of scholarship, he decided to join the Orthodox Church at the age of 90.

blessings


There is much to be learned from the Orthodox perspective on the History of the Church, though as discussed earlier on, it is really important to get a mix of biased historical accounts.

I enjoy the view of the Orthodox Churchmen, but I have never been able to sit through a service.

Just the other day I was chatting about this and in particular discussing Fr. John Michael Talbot's album, "The Lord's Supper'. I think the whole Church could do with a little more of that. The Spirit of God brings such freshness to our worship, if only we are willing to be 'led by GOD'.

Love in Christ,
Headheart.

[timspong]

There are some great resources on iTunes.

I took the Covenant Worldwide courses on:

1. Ancient & Medieval church history
2. Reformation & Modern Church history

They also do OT and NT history. All were very good and you can do a search for them on iTunes podcasts

There are some seminaries I found on iTunes U (just go to the iTunes store and click on itunes U). I think Reformed theological seminary (RTS) and Concordia both have some great Church history courses that you can download for free their.

There is also Fuller but that place is very liberal so I wouldn't trust the quality of their material. Although I would have thought it would be difficult to "liberalize" church history, even for them.

[headheart]

There are some great resources on iTunes.

I took the Covenant Worldwide courses on:

1. Ancient & Medieval church history
2. Reformation & Modern Church history

They also do OT and NT history. All were very good and you can do a search for them on iTunes podcasts

There are some seminaries I found on iTunes U (just go to the iTunes store and click on itunes U). I think Reformed theological seminary (RTS) and Concordia both have some great Church history courses that you can download for free their.

There is also Fuller but that place is very liberal so I wouldn't trust the quality of their material. Although I would have thought it would be difficult to "liberalize" church history, even for them.

Thank-you !

It is good to view all angles when considering Church History, as with most things. I am going to enjoy exploring as many as I can find and the broader the scope and more extreme the writings the better.

Headheart

[Kelp]

Kelp(p) My health is improving and though there is a possibility of another procedure on an artery at the back of the heart, I am eating right, walking a bit etc.
That's good that you're improving, keep it up :smile:

[headheart]

That's good that you're improving, keep it up :smile:

Yes! Glory to God!

:eek:

From the moment we are born to the moment we die,
Our fine upholstery and bodywork; experience all the natural wear and tear
We may get a few replacements from the old scrap yard
For a few extra miles and a few extra years
We may get serviced and keep rolling along
But we all know for certain there is always an end to that tune

One day for certain we will have to trade this one in
For something much tougher than blood, bones or skin.

Headheart.

[headheart]

There are some great resources on iTunes.



I just loaded it up today and going to see what I can find.

HH.

[JonLanceBarker]

I enjoy the view of the Orthodox Churchmen, but I have never been able to sit through a service.

Silly...you're not supposed to able to sit through a service. :hehe:

[headheart]

Silly...you're not supposed to able to sit through a service. :hehe:

I've been listening to Atomic Opera, and I think you might have a point there.

:teeth:

[humanevitae]

Actually all the best books are either old or out of print. Are you sure Seminary books are the type that present an unbiased point of view ? The idea is not to read further biased literature but to read some that paints as it were with a broader brush. What do you think of Philip Schaff's (http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/About.htm)histories ( try ccel.org ) ?

Any thoughts on my final question ? (....aspects of Church History that have never been finalized.)


Headheart



May I suggest going to some publishers and picking out your own books. Publishers such as TAN, Ignatius Press, Christendom Press, Sophia Press.
They have loads of books and many reprints. Enjoy!

[mostlyharmless]

'Reformation - Europe's House Divided - 1490 - 1700' by Diarmaid MacCulloch.

Good book on the church in the Reformation period. Make sure you read a couple of other major introductions to the reformation period that come from different perspectives, to balance out the biases of MacCulloch.

[headheart]

May I suggest going to some publishers and picking out your own books. Publishers such as TAN, Ignatius Press, Christendom Press, Sophia Press.
They have loads of books and many reprints. Enjoy!


By TAN you must mean, 'TAN Books - traditional Catholic' (http://www.tanbooks.com/)

By Ingnatius Press you must mean, Ignatius Press (http://www.ignatius.com/index.aspx)

By Christendom Press you must mean, 'Christendom Press' (http://www.christendompress.com/)

'For over twenty five years, the Christendom Press has dedicated itself to the defense of Christian society and the renewal of Catholic intellectual life.'

By Sophia Press you must mean, 'Sophia Institute Press' (http://www.sophiainstitute.com/)

'Catholic Classic and Other Faithful Catholic Books.'

This reminds me a little of what I felt like as a young man, when I wandered into the Sunday School Bookcentre and could find nothing at all by Roman Catholic writers. Now that was thirty years ago, and these days you can go into any Christian bookstore and get a wide diversity of litreture from all mainstream denominations. I think your links are little heavy on one side, and you might do well to get a varied menu.

Peace,
HH.

[headheart]

Good book on the church in the Reformation period. Make sure you read a couple of other major introductions to the reformation period that come from different perspectives, to balance out the biases of MacCulloch.

I agree. Reading one stream of indoctrination is always harmful to one's reason. Getting a rounded education is a good thing and it would not harm to get perspectives of those who were unbelieving historians too. It always helps to get an outside perspective, or one is in the danger of achieving a sterile perspective, or lopsided view of things.

Peace,
HH.

[ren47]

I recently did a study for my History about popular piety and the medieval church. Two books that were particularly good were The Stripping of the Altars (http://www.amazon.com/Stripping-Altars-Traditional-Religion-1400-1580/dp/0300108281/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235606201&sr=1-1) by Eamon Duffy and [I]Religion and the Decline of Magic[/ (http://www.amazon.com/Religion-Decline-Magic-Sixteenth-Seventeenth-Century/dp/0140137440/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235606267&sr=1-1)i] by Keith Thomas (the links take you to the Amazon.com pages, btw).

These focus on the beliefs of both the Church and the people of pre-industrial Britain, and are really fascinating. Thomas's book also has an interesting veiw on witchcraft. I recommend them, even if they are not exactly what you requested. The beliefs of the laity are always important in shaping Church history.

[mostlyharmless]

I recently did a study for my History about popular piety and the medieval church. Two books that were particularly good were The Stripping of the Altars (http://www.amazon.com/Stripping-Altars-Traditional-Religion-1400-1580/dp/0300108281/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235606201&sr=1-1) by Eamon Duffy and [i]Religion and the Decline of Magic[/ (http://www.amazon.com/Religion-Decline-Magic-Sixteenth-Seventeenth-Century/dp/0140137440/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235606267&sr=1-1)i] by Keith Thomas (the links take you to the Amazon.com pages, btw).

These focus on the beliefs of both the Church and the people of pre-industrial Britain, and are really fascinating. Thomas's book also has an interesting veiw on witchcraft. I recommend them, even if they are not exactly what you requested. The beliefs of the laity are always important in shaping Church history.

Duffy's book is very important. It ended up changing a lot of what was believed about the history of the reformation in England. There is still a lot of ongoing research into what actually happened and the causes and so Duffy's views need a bit of context. He was challenging the accepted positions with that book so it may be overstated in places and his views are generally called revisionist.

[timspong]

I am actually doing one of those iTunes U courses from RTS seminary on Christian History and it is the best I have done so far. Very detailed but also quite entertaining. I highly recommend it.

http://deimos3.apple.com/WebObjects/Core.woa/Browse/rts-public.1380369647

[aegis]

I enjoyed:

Professor Justo L. Gonzalez: Story of Christianity: volume I and II and his History of Christian thoughts: Both these books are easy to read and very concise and gave a broad overview of Church history

Another book I liked is : "Story of Christian theologies: twenty centuries of Tradition and Reform" by Dr. Roger Olsen. This is more an overview of theology as it goes through the years of church history.

[chrisjames]

Sorry, ALL points of view are biased. Your best bet is to read as extensively as possible, from the East as well as the West. Here's a snippet from the East (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/history.aspx).

Just had a quick glance at that site, it looks very promising - thank you so much for the link.:pray:

[Stefcui]

I started reading Philip Schaff's books but have taken a bit of a break from them, primarily because I was informed by certain Roman Catholic readers that there are better books on the subject, and of course there is the rich library of the Early Church fathers.

As Schaff is not a Catholic, and sometimes exposes skullduggery of Catholics, his writings are understandably frowned upon by many Catholics. I have Schaff's 38 volume on the Early Church Fathers, both in hardback and digital, and they are amazing.


As I am not rolling in the buckaroos, but am very interested in reading some good books on the subject, I would greatly welcome...

The Ancient Christian Commentary set is also very good. I have found, to make any sense of the fathers, a good way to start is with the 1st century books (Clement of Rome, King Abgar), and read the fathers in chronological order (Didache; Ignatius; Polycarp; Hermas; Justin Martyr; Theophilus; Irenaeus; Tertullian, etc). That way you can discern how and when differnet doctrines started to emerge which were not original teachings from the Apostles. An example is how and when the doctrine of the papacy developed. If you ask a Catholic to answer about the papacy, his answer will be different to a Protestant's. By reading the ECF books personally it is harder for someone to deceive you with their opinions or sectarian doctrines. I believe every Christian should do this anyway due to the amount of deception everywhere.

Another good book is by Rufinus, On the Adulteration of Books. He mentions that many books were altered by scribes and gnostics, so you need to be careful with assuming that they actually said what is read. Rufinus gives examples and rules to follow to detect and discern scribal alterations. He is invaluable (IMO).