Creatures that commit horrible acts

[superdan54]

I was having a theological discussion with my father a while back, and one of the reoccuring themes were creatures that commit "horrible" acts. How this relates to theology is the presence of certain parasitic organisms in relation to God's "good" design upon the world. One example is the braconid wasp, which desposits eggs insite a host (usually an aphid), which then eat their way out of the host. Another example would be the candiru, which penetrate a fish's gills and contain sharp barbs which prevent extraction. The fish is small enough that it has penetrated certain human orifaces with excruciating results, needless to say. While admittedly that's not what the fish is designed to do, there are many others (lampreys, etc..) that in their own right, are absolutely gorgeous and amazing in their design, despite their terrifying insticts.

I see Creation as a way of God teaching us, explaining to us His character, power, amongst other things. What, if anything, can I gather from the presence of such organisms? I know there are no concrete answers, and I have some ideas myself, but I'd like to hear what others think on this subject.

Now I know many YEC's would answer that the curse is responsible for such "behavior", but that philosophy just opens up a completely new set of problems, namely God redesigning almost all life & phyisical laws. Even in an evolutionary mindset, such creatures would have existed long before the "curse", so it seems these creatures were providentially created as such, through whatever means.

[jordanriver]

I was having a theological discussion with my father a while back, and one of the reoccuring themes were creatures that commit "horrible" acts. How this relates to theology is the presence of certain parasitic organisms in relation to God's "good" design upon the world. One example is the braconid wasp, which desposits eggs insite a host (usually an aphid), which then eat their way out of the host. Another example would be the candiru, which penetrate a fish's gills and contain sharp barbs which prevent extraction. The fish is small enough that it has penetrated certain human orifaces with excruciating results, needless to say. While admittedly that's not what the fish is designed to do, there are many others (lampreys, etc..) that in their own right, are absolutely gorgeous and amazing in their design, despite their terrifying insticts.

I see Creation as a way of God teaching us, explaining to us His character, power, amongst other things. What, if anything, can I gather from the presence of such organisms? I know there are no concrete answers, and I have some ideas myself, but I'd like to hear what others think on this subject.

.

I see Scripture as the way to know God's character. Take Jesus' advice to 'search the Scriptures' (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%205:39;&version=9;) which testify of Jesus and much more (consider God's dealings with the humans in the historical books, Exodus, Numbers, Judges, Joshua, 1st and 2nd Kings and Chronicles. Thats where you'll get a good idea of God's character.


and Paul writes:
Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

The only thing you get from created stuff is that a creator was involved.

A person can count tree rings, date rocks, measure light distances, examine toothmarks on dinosaur bones and experience reptile venom all day long every day and they'll never discover that God hates man's sin because God is *holy*

just my humble opinion.

JR

[Adrift]

I see Scripture as the way to know God's character. Take Jesus' advice to 'search the Scriptures' (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%205:39;&version=9;) which testify of Jesus and much more (consider God's dealings with the humans in the historical books, Exodus, Numbers, Judges, Joshua, 1st and 2nd Kings and Chronicles. Thats where you'll get a good idea of God's character.


and Paul writes:
Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

The only thing you get from created stuff is that a creator was involved.

A person can count tree rings, date rocks, measure light distances, examine toothmarks on dinosaur bones and experience reptile venom all day long every day and they'll never discover that God hates man's sin because God is *holy*

just my humble opinion.

JR

Good answer. And I love your avatar. Is that Donald Sutherland from Invasion of the Bodysnatchers pointing to a spongmonkey (the weird internet guys who ended up in those Quizno commercials?)

[superdan54]

I see Scripture as the way to know God's character. Take Jesus' advice to 'search the Scriptures' (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%205:39;&version=9;) which testify of Jesus and much more (consider God's dealings with the humans in the historical books, Exodus, Numbers, Judges, Joshua, 1st and 2nd Kings and Chronicles. Thats where you'll get a good idea of God's character.


and Paul writes:
Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

The only thing you get from created stuff is that a creator was involved.

A person can count tree rings, date rocks, measure light distances, examine toothmarks on dinosaur bones and experience reptile venom all day long every day and they'll never discover that God hates man's sin because God is *holy*

just my humble opinion.

JR

True,

but the same book of Romans has this to say for those who did not receive the Law:

Romans 1:19-20

19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

This is clearly telling us that God also reveals both his power and character through Creation. So I am curious as to what humans should take from "that which has been made", particularily the case I presented above.

[Adrift]

True,

but the same book of Romans has this to say for those who did not receive the Law:

Romans 1:19-20

19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

This is clearly telling us that God also reveals both his power and character through Creation. So I am curious as to what humans should take from "that which has been made", particularily the case I presented above.

Interesting point.

Sorry for not adding much to the conversation, but I'm enjoying it so far :smile:

[jordanriver]

True,

but the same book of Romans has this to say for those who did not receive the Law:

Romans 1:19-20

19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

This is clearly telling us that God also reveals both his power and character through Creation. So I am curious as to what humans should take from "that which has been made", particularily the case I presented above.

i don't know about other humans, not even the other born again 'saved' humans who have the prerequisite condition of the indwelling Holy Spirit in them so that they can at least have a chance to understand what Scripture is saying.

but my take on that context from Romans was not that creation was telling us about the nature of the Creator, but that the existance of the creation demonstrates that there is a Creator. Therefore, those who deny that the Creator exists are without excuse. (i.e. if there's no Creator, then where did all this stuff come from)

JR

[jordanriver]

Good answer. And I love your avatar. Is that Donald Sutherland from Invasion of the Bodysnatchers pointing to a spongmonkey (the weird internet guys who ended up in those Quizno commercials?)

?!?!
I'm not a spongmonkey.

JR

[gharfish]

Perhaps God wants to horrify us ?

[superdan54]

i don't know about other humans, not even the other born again 'saved' humans who have the prerequisite condition of the indwelling Holy Spirit in them so that they can at least have a chance to understand what Scripture is saying.

but my take on that context from Romans was not that creation was telling us about the nature of the Creator, but that the existance of the creation demonstrates that there is a Creator. Therefore, those who deny that the Creator exists are without excuse. (i.e. if there's no Creator, then where did all this stuff come from)

JR

Maybe, but Paul's audience weren't athiests and skeptics. They were former pagans who believed In Jupiter and the other Olympian gods. The creation doesn't just point to a god's existence, it also reveals what kind of God he is. He's not an animorphic god, as some believed (v. 23) but is the One Sovereign and Almighty God, Lord of all Creation. In other words, Paul isn't just advocating intelligent design :wink:.

[superdan54]

Perhaps God wants to horrify us ?

Ironic that you of the big-toothed fish beasty avatar should post here :lol:.


p.s. that is a horrifying thought.

[jordanriver]

Maybe, but Paul's audience weren't athiests and skeptics. They were former pagans who believed In Jupiter and the other Olympian gods. The creation doesn't just point to a god's existence, it also reveals what kind of God he is. He's not an animorphic god, as some believed (v. 23) but is the One Sovereign and Almighty God, Lord of all Creation. In other words, Paul isn't just advocating intelligent design :wink:.

I think a lot of his audience was skeptics and at least 'atheistic'. I've read a little about the stoics and epicurians.
As for the pagans, how does creation tell someone that it was Yahweh and not Jupiter/Zeus that created it. What can you tell about the stars that points to Jesus instead of Apollo.

JR

[superdan54]

I think a lot of his audience was skeptics and at least 'atheistic'. I've read a little about the stoics and epicurians.
As for the pagans, how does creation tell someone that it was Yahweh and not Jupiter/Zeus that created it. What can you tell about the stars that points to Jesus instead of Apollo.

JR

Well that's partly what I'm asking here. But while there certainly were skeptics, I still don't think that's who Paul is addressing, for why else would he condemn them for making idols based off what they saw in creation?

22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,

23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

Further proof comes in Acts, where Paul debates the Men of Athens:

Acts 17:22-29

22 So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects.

23 "For while I was passing through and examining the (AV)objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD ' Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you.

24"The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands;

25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;

26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,

27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.'

29"Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.

Paul is not appealing to Scripture at all here, and even uses quotes from Greek poets. He says that the Glory of God is revealed in creation, not just the existence of God. I'm not saying that we shouldn't use Scripture to understand God or His Glory, but I am saying that Scripture points to Creation as a source of revelation. And thus, I seek to understand certain aspects of his design in creation.

[jordanriver]

Well that's partly what I'm asking here. But while there certainly were skeptics, I still don't think that's who Paul is addressing, for why else would he condemn them for making idols based off what they saw in creation?

22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,

23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

Further proof comes in Acts, where Paul debates the Men of Athens:

Acts 17:22-29

22 So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects.

23 "For while I was passing through and examining the (AV)objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD ' Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you.

24"The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands;

25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;

26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,

27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.'

29"Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.

Paul is not appealing to Scripture at all here, and even uses quotes from Greek poets. He says that the Glory of God is revealed in creation, not just the existence of God. I'm not saying that we shouldn't use Scripture to understand God or His Glory, but I am saying that Scripture points to Creation as a source of revelation. And thus, I seek to understand certain aspects of his design in creation.

I suppose its possible I just get too wary of putting any emphasis on the created stuff. I've put the naturalists in the same box with the nature-worshipping (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%201:25;&version=9;)pagans that Paul warns about. As Paul says there in verse 29 that the Godhead is not the created stuff even if the created stuff is gold or art created by man.
If the Bible gets too labeled as 'poetic metaphor', people are going to eventually dismiss it in favor of the created stuff to see whats going on. And Jesus did not like the idea of making the Word of God of "none effect" as when the Pharisees preferred their tradition over it ( Mark 7:13 )

As for Paul not appealing to Scripture, thats the way some of us go about it now. One can't just go into an alien culture thumping the Bible to folks who aren't aware of its authority. You've got to ease your way into their presence first. Otherwise it would be like going into one of the naturalist forums announcing right off the bat, "evolution is a fairy tale for adults!" (albeit, so far not as dangerous as going into the Middle East and announcing that Jesus is Lord and Mohammad was a fraud)

JR

[Adrift]

?!?!
I'm not a spongmonkey.

JR

you got something against spongmonkeys?