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Unitarian101
08-06-2016, 07:32 AM
Here's (https://archive.org/details/NewRecording19) my reading of the first Chapter of Revelation. Notice the following:


Ἰωάνης ταῖς ἑπτὰ ἐκκλησίαις ταῖς ἐν τῇ Ἀσίᾳ· χάρις ὑμῖν καὶ εἰρήνη ἀπὸ ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος, καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν ἑπτὰ Πνευμάτων ἃ ἐνώπιον τοῦ θρόνου αὐτοῦ,

Notice that this name is from Exodus 3:14 --



14 καὶ εἶπεν ὁ Θεὸς πρὸς Μωυσῆν λέγων· ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν. καὶ εἶπεν· οὕτως ἐρεῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς ᾿Ισραήλ· ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέ με πρὸς ὑμᾶς.


But note that God's name is not ἐγώ εἰμι according to apostle John, it is ὁ ὤν.

Faber
08-06-2016, 02:42 PM
Revelation 1:4,8 was not referring to God by name, only by description. And the Septuagint is not necessarily an accurate translation of the Hebrew. In Exodus 3:14 it uses a participle instead of an intransitive verb.

Unitarian101
08-06-2016, 05:56 PM
Revelation 1:4,8 was not referring to God by name, only by description.

That' not possible because then it would make for ungrammatical Greek. The only way to save the integrity of the Greek here is to see ὁ ὢν as being indeclinable , as a name.


In Exodus 3:14 it uses a participle instead of an intransitive verb.

So does Revelation 1:4,8 .


And the Septuagint is not necessarily an accurate translation of the Hebrew.

According to apostle John at Revelation 1:4,8 both use ὁ ὢν as a name of God . Apostle John also has other names for God in the Rev. to be sure -- ὁ ἦν , ὁ ἐρχόμενος, ὁ παντοκράτωρ., etc., but only ὁ ὢν is derived from LXX Exodus 3:14.

37818
08-07-2016, 01:51 AM
How many places in the LXX is God referred to as ὁ ὢν? The Hebrew in Exodus 3:14 is twice in the first person.
אהיה אשׁר אהיה

And the LXX renders that double first person expression as in a first person - third person manner.
ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὢν.

God's Name in the Hebrew through out the OT is in the third person. Who Is - meaning the Self-Existent. Translated typically in the LXX as Κύριος.

Unitarian101
08-07-2016, 02:07 AM
How many places in the LXX is God referred to as ὁ ὢν?

Twice in the LXX. God is referred to as ὁ ὢν 5 times in the Revelation ! The point is that apostle John agreed with the LXX's understanding of how to render God's name. He did not understand it to be ἐγώ εἰμι but ὁ ὢν.


The Hebrew in Exodus 3:14 is twice in the first person.
אהיה אשׁר אהיה

And the LXX renders that double first person expression as in a first person - third person manner.
ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὢν.

God's Name in the Hebrew through out the OT is in the third person. Who Is - meaning the Self-Existent. Translated typically in the LXX as Κύριος.


What precisely do you mean by that, relative to the Revelation ?

37818
08-09-2016, 01:10 AM
Twice in the LXX. God is referred to as ὁ ὢν 5 times in the Revelation ! The point is that apostle John agreed with the LXX's understanding of how to render God's name. He did not understand it to be ἐγώ εἰμι but ὁ ὢν.

What precisely do you mean by that, relative to the Revelation ?

". . . Grace to you and peace, from him who is and who was and who is to come; . . . and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, . . ." -- Revelation 1:4, 5. ASV

". . . I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty. . . ." -- Revelation 1:8. ASV

". . . Fear not; I am the first and the last, and the Living one; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive for evermore, . . ." -- Revelation 1:17-18. ASV

". . . Thus saith Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God. . . ." -- Isaiah 44:6.

In verses 4 & 5 two persons are identified. And 8, 17-18 one is identified. With Isaiah that one is identified to be the LORD - Jehovah (ASV). Compare with Revelation 22:12-13.

Unitarian101
08-09-2016, 07:14 AM
". . . Grace to you and peace, from him who is and who was and who is to come; . . . and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, . . ." -- Revelation 1:4, 5. ASV

". . . I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty. . . ." -- Revelation 1:8. ASV

". . . Fear not; I am the first and the last, and the Living one; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive for evermore, . . ." -- Revelation 1:17-18. ASV

". . . Thus saith Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God. . . ." -- Isaiah 44:6.

In verses 4 & 5 two persons are identified. And 8, 17-18 one is identified. With Isaiah that one is identified to be the LORD - Jehovah (ASV). Compare with Revelation 22:12-13.

I don't know what you're trying to get at. In verses 4 & 5 Jesus Christ is distinguished from the one who is called ὁ ὢν --




4Ἰωάνης ταῖς ἑπτὰ ἐκκλησίαις ταῖς ἐν τῇ Ἀσίᾳ· χάρις ὑμῖν καὶ εἰρήνη ἀπὸ ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος, καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν ἑπτὰ Πνευμάτων ἃ ἐνώπιον τοῦ θρόνου αὐτοῦ, 5καὶ ἀπὸ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, ὁ μάρτυς ὁ πιστός, ὁ πρωτότοκος τῶν νεκρῶν καὶ ὁ ἄρχων τῶν βασιλέων τῆς γῆς. Τῷ ἀγαπῶντι ἡμᾶς καὶ λύσαντι ἡμᾶς ἐκ τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν ἡμῶν ἐν τῷ αἵματι αὐτοῦ, 6καὶ ἐποίησεν ἡμᾶς βασιλείαν, ἱερεῖς τῷ Θεῷ καὶ Πατρὶ αὐτοῦ, αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων· ἀμήν.

37818
08-09-2016, 01:04 PM
I don't know what you're trying to get at. In verses 4 & 5 Jesus Christ is distinguished from the one who is called ὁ ὢν --
Yes.

But in verses following is also identifed as the LORD God. Revelation 1;8, 11, 17-19; 22:12-13. Cross reference Isaiah 44:6.

Unitarian101
08-09-2016, 05:07 PM
Yes.

But in verses following is also identifed as the LORD God. Revelation 1;8, 11, 17-19; 22:12-13. Cross reference Isaiah 44:6.

This is a separate issue, which is not really relevant to this thread. Though I would argue that none of the verses you enlist prove your point. I will just take the first of your verses as an example:


Ἐγώ εἰμι τὸ Ἄλφα καὶ τὸ Ὦ, λέγει Κύριος ὁ Θεός, ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος, ὁ Παντοκράτωρ.

This is a reference to the Father, not Jesus IMHO. At best it is a debatable reference to Christ as "God," so that even trinitarian expositors are divided on the issue. So it does not reach the level of a "proof" text. Here's the Expositor's Greek Testament (http://biblehub.com/commentaries/egt/revelation/1.htm):


Revelation 1:8. Only here and in Revelation 21:5 f. is God introduced as the speaker, in the Apocalypse. The advent of the Christ, which marks the end of the age, is brought about by God, who overrules (παντοκράτωρ always of God in Apocalypse, otherwise the first part of the title might have suggested Christ) even the anomalies and contradictions of history for this providential climax. Here's Expositor's Greek Testament for example:

etc..

37818
08-12-2016, 12:59 AM
Ἐγώ εἰμι τὸ Ἄλφα καὶ τὸ Ὦ, λέγει Κύριος ὁ Θεός, ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος, ὁ Παντοκράτωρ.
This is a reference to the Father, not Jesus IMHO. At best it is a debatable reference to Christ as "God," so that even trinitarian expositors are divided on the issue. So it does not reach the level of a "proof" text. Here's the Expositor's Greek Testament (http://biblehub.com/commentaries/egt/revelation/1.htm):

etc..

". . . I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty. . . ." v.8

". . . I am the first and the last, and the Living one; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive for evermore, . . ." v.18

Unitarian101
08-12-2016, 06:50 AM
". . . I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty. . . ." v.8

". . . I am the first and the last, and the Living one; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive for evermore, . . ." v.18

But Jesus is not called ὁ ὢν in this verse. Also "the alpha and the omega" is a different title than "the first and the last." Jesus is not called the former ( "the alpha and the omega.")

37818
08-12-2016, 07:10 PM
But Jesus is not called ὁ ὢν in this verse. Also "the alpha and the omega" is a different title than "the first and the last." Jesus is not called the former ( "the alpha and the omega.")

:no:
". . . I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. . . ." -- Revealtion 22:13. (compare Isaiah 44:6.)

Unitarian101
08-14-2016, 03:17 AM
:no:
". . . I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. . . ." -- Revealtion 22:13. (compare Isaiah 44:6.)

In this verse there are at least three possible candidates for speaker:

(1) The Angel speaking for God.
(2) God himself in soliloquy .
(3) Jesus Christ.

Option 3 is the least likely on account of the fact that in the Revelation the phrase Alpha and the Omega is never predicated to Christ prior to Rev. 22:13 or after. Only God is indisputably referred to with this title in the Revelation prior to Rev. 22:13.

37818
08-14-2016, 02:53 PM
In this verse there are at least three possible candidates for speaker:

(1) The Angel speaking for God.
(2) God himself in soliloquy .
(3) Jesus Christ.

Option 3 is the least likely on account of the fact that in the Revelation the phrase Alpha and the Omega is never predicated to Christ prior to Rev. 22:13 or after. Only God is indisputably referred to with this title in the Revelation prior to Rev. 22:13.

There is only one "the first and the last." Which is identifed as the "alpha and omega" and "the beginning and the end." (compare Revelation 1:8 and 1:17-18.)

Unitarian101
08-14-2016, 11:51 PM
There is only one "the first and the last." Which is identifed as the "alpha and omega" and "the beginning and the end." (compare Revelation 1:8 and 1:17-18.)

For starters, in Rev. 1:8 it's not Christ but the Father who is identified as τὸ Ἄλφα καὶ τὸ Ὦ.. Look at the Greek:




4Ἰωάνης ταῖς ἑπτὰ ἐκκλησίαις ταῖς ἐν τῇ Ἀσίᾳ· χάρις ὑμῖν καὶ εἰρήνη ἀπὸ ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος, καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν ἑπτὰ Πνευμάτων ἃ ἐνώπιον τοῦ θρόνου αὐτοῦ, 5καὶ ἀπὸ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, ὁ μάρτυς ὁ πιστός, ὁ πρωτότοκος τῶν νεκρῶν καὶ ὁ ἄρχων τῶν βασιλέων τῆς γῆς. Τῷ ἀγαπῶντι ἡμᾶς καὶ λύσαντι ἡμᾶς ἐκ τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν ἡμῶν ἐν τῷ αἵματι αὐτοῦ, 6καὶ ἐποίησεν ἡμᾶς βασιλείαν, ἱερεῖς τῷ Θεῷ καὶ Πατρὶ αὐτοῦ, αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων· ἀμήν.

7Ἰδοὺ ἔρχεται μετὰ τῶν νεφελῶν, καὶ ὄψεται αὐτὸν πᾶς ὀφθαλμὸς καὶ οἵτινες αὐτὸν ἐξεκέντησαν, καὶ κόψονται ἐπ’ αὐτὸν πᾶσαι αἱ φυλαὶ τῆς γῆς. ναί, ἀμήν.

8Ἐγώ εἰμι τὸ Ἄλφα καὶ τὸ Ὦ, λέγει Κύριος ὁ Θεός, ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος, ὁ Παντοκράτωρ.


You see the expression (three titles to be specific) in red above (in verse 4) ? It identifies the Father. We know this because the one given these titles is distinguished from the Seven Spirits and from Jesus Christ. Now in verse 8 we have the same expression (underlined red), that's our cue that this is the Father back in focus. We also have additional titles like ὁ Θεός and ὁ Παντοκράτωρ which always belong to the Father. Here is a Trinitarian resource:




Expositor's Greek Testament

Revelation 1:8. Only here and in Revelation 21:5 f. is God introduced as the speaker, in the Apocalypse. The advent of the Christ, which marks the end of the age, is brought about by God, who overrules (παντοκράτωρ always of God in Apocalypse, otherwise the first part of the title might have suggested Christ) even the anomalies and contradictions of history for this providential climax.

At best, Trinitarians are divided on this issue. See here:


Benson Commentary

Revelation 1:8. I am Alpha and Omega, saith the Lord — Alpha is the first, Omega the last letter in the Greek alphabet. Let his enemies boast and rage ever so much in the intermediate time, yet he is both the Alpha, or beginning, and the Omega, or end, of all things. Grotius and Bengelius read, λεγει Κυριος ο θεος, saith the Lord God a reading with which the Vulgate accords, having, it seems, understood the verse as spoken by the Father. Accordingly Bengelius’s note is, “God is the beginning, as he is the Author and Creator of all things, and as he proposes, declares, and promises such great things. He is the end, as he brings all the things which are here revealed to a complete and glorious conclusion. Again, the beginning and end of a thing is, in Scripture, styled the whole thing. Therefore, God is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end; that is, one who is all things, and always the same.” See Wesley. It will, however, as Doddridge observes, be difficult to give sufficient proof that the words of this verse were spoken by the Father. “Most of the phrases which are here used concerning this glorious Person, are afterward used concerning our Lord Jesus Christ; and παντοκρατωρ, almighty, though in ecclesiastical writers of the earliest ages it is generally appropriated to the Father, may, according to the Syriac version, be rendered, He who holds; that is, superintends, supports, and governs all; and then it is applied to Christ, Colossians 1:17; Hebrews 1:3. But if, after all, the words should be understood as spoken by the Father, our Lord’s applying so many of these titles afterward to himself, plainly proves his partaking with the Father in the glory peculiar to the divine nature, and incommunicable to any creature.” See Bishop Pearson on the Creed, p. 175.


etc.

37818
08-16-2016, 01:45 AM
The facts stand.

". . . I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty. . . ." -- Revelation 1:8

". . . I am the first and the last, and the Living one; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive for evermore, . . ." -- Revelation 1:17-18.

". . . I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. . . ."

There is that only one. Not two. [Two of three Persons, the One God. BTW]

Unitarian101
08-16-2016, 06:33 AM
The facts stand.

". . . I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty. . . ." -- Revelation 1:8

". . . I am the first and the last, and the Living one; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive for evermore, . . ." -- Revelation 1:17-18.

". . . I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. . . ."

There is that only one. Not two. [Two of three Persons, the One God. BTW]

Rev. 1:8 could refer to the Father (rather than to Jesus), even according to Trinitarians. So it's possible that there are two individuals in these two verses. If there is nothing new next post, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Thanks for your time,

RGJesus
11-10-2016, 08:21 AM
The facts stand.

". . . I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty. . . ." -- Revelation 1:8

". . . I am the first and the last, and the Living one; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive for evermore, . . ." -- Revelation 1:17-18.

". . . I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. . . ."

There is that only one. Not two. [Two of three Persons, the One God. BTW]

I appears that Jesus is called the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, and the beginning and the ending. But it doesn't appear that he is called the Almighty God.

What does this tell us?

Sparko
11-10-2016, 12:33 PM
I appears that Jesus is called the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, and the beginning and the ending. But it doesn't appear that he is called the Almighty God.

What does this tell us?

John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Col. 1:16-17 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

Titus 2:13 while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ

2 Timothy 3:16 Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He (1) appeared in a body (2), was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory. NIV footnotes: (1) Some manuscripts God -- (2) Or in the flesh

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

John 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." 28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"


any more questions?

RGJesus
11-10-2016, 02:59 PM
John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Col. 1:16-17 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

Titus 2:13 while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ

2 Timothy 3:16 Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He (1) appeared in a body (2), was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory. NIV footnotes: (1) Some manuscripts God -- (2) Or in the flesh

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

John 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." 28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"


any more questions?

There is a place to discuss the passages you cited. But let's for now stick within the book of Revelation. Reposting, it appears that Jesus is called the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, and the beginning and the ending. But it doesn't appear that he is called the Almighty God.

What does this tell us?

Sparko
11-10-2016, 03:33 PM
There is a place to discuss the passages you cited. But let's for now stick within the book of Revelation. Reposting, it appears that Jesus is called the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, and the beginning and the ending. But it doesn't appear that he is called the Almighty God.

What does this tell us?The Bible calls him God in a lot of places, as I posted. Alpha and Omega, First and Last are also titles of God. The implication is clear, that Jesus is God.

YHWH is the "First and the Last":

Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD says -- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God."

Isaiah 48:12 "Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last."

Jesus is the "First and the Last":

Rev. 1:17 "When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: ‘Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.’"

Rev. 2:8 "To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again."

Rev. 22:13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

John Reece
11-10-2016, 03:58 PM
The Bible calls him God in a lot of places, as I posted. Alpha and Omega, First and Last are also titles of God. The implication is clear, that Jesus is God.

YHWH is the "First and the Last":

Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD says -- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God."

Isaiah 48:12 "Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last."

Jesus is the "First and the Last":

Rev. 1:17 "When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: ‘Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.’"

Rev. 2:8 "To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again."

Rev. 22:13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

See here (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?12663-John&p=386366&viewfull=1#post386366).

RGJesus
11-11-2016, 12:05 AM
The Bible calls him God in a lot of places, as I posted. Alpha and Omega, First and Last are also titles of God. The implication is clear, that Jesus is God.

YHWH is the "First and the Last":

Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD says -- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God."

Isaiah 48:12 "Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last."

Jesus is the "First and the Last":

Rev. 1:17 "When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: ‘Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.’"

Rev. 2:8 "To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again."

Rev. 22:13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

Where does it say Jesus is called Almighty God? Nowhere. Is it possible that "the Alpha and the Omega," etc. are derivative titles given to Jesus? Jesus said in Matthew 28:19 "all authority is given" to him. Could it be that part and parcel of that authority entails his being given the title "the Alpha and the Omega"?

RGJesus
11-11-2016, 12:10 AM
See here (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?12663-John&p=386366&viewfull=1#post386366).

Although Jesus is called "the Alpha and the Omega," etc., he is never called Almighty God. What does this tell us?

John Reece
11-11-2016, 01:12 AM
Although Jesus is called "the Alpha and the Omega," etc., he is never called Almighty God. What does this tell us?

Your premise is questionable.

Revelation 11:17 λέγοντες·
εὐχαριστοῦμέν σοι, κύριε ὁ θεὸς ὁ παντοκράτωρ, ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν, ὅτι εἴληφας τὴν δύναμίν σου τὴν μεγάλην καὶ ἐβασίλευσας.

NRSV: Rev. 11:17 singing,
“We give you thanks, Lord God Almighty,
who are and who were,
for you have taken your great power
and begun to reign.

Who was it that had "begun to reign" in Revelation 11:17?

According to the text, it was the "Lord God Almighty" (κύριε ὁ θεὸς ὁ παντοκράτωρ).

What is the difference between "Almighty God" and "God Almighty"?

RGJesus
11-11-2016, 02:58 AM
Your premise is questionable.

Revelation 11:17 λέγοντες·
εὐχαριστοῦμέν σοι, κύριε ὁ θεὸς ὁ παντοκράτωρ, ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν, ὅτι εἴληφας τὴν δύναμίν σου τὴν μεγάλην καὶ ἐβασίλευσας.

NRSV: Rev. 11:17 singing,
“We give you thanks, Lord God Almighty,
who are and who were,
for you have taken your great power
and begun to reign.

Who was it that had "begun to reign" in Revelation 11:17?

According to the text, it was the "Lord God Almighty" (κύριε ὁ θεὸς ὁ παντοκράτωρ).

What is the difference between "Almighty God" and "God Almighty"?

Rev. 11:15-17 (NRSV):
Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying,

“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord
and of his Messiah,
and he will reign forever and ever.”
Then the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, singing,

“We give you thanks, Lord God Almighty,
who are and who were,
for you have taken your great power
and begun to reign."

"Lord God Almighty" is in reference to "our Lord" and "God" in the preceding passage, not to the Messiah.

John Reece
11-11-2016, 12:28 PM
Rev. 11:15-17 (NRSV):
Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying,

“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord
and of his Messiah,
and he will reign forever and ever.”
Then the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, singing,

“We give you thanks, Lord God Almighty,
who are and who were,
for you have taken your great power
and begun to reign."

"Lord God Almighty" is in reference to "our Lord" and "God" in the preceding passage, not to the Messiah.

You do well in expanding the context. Thanks.

What is the difference in what is said here with regard to "our Lord" and with regard to "his Messiah"? Do they not share the same almighty reign as one?


“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord
and of his Messiah, and he will reign forever and ever.”

Sparko
11-11-2016, 01:09 PM
Where does it say Jesus is called Almighty God? Nowhere. Is it possible that "the Alpha and the Omega," etc. are derivative titles given to Jesus? Jesus said in Matthew 28:19 "all authority is given" to him. Could it be that part and parcel of that authority entails his being given the title "the Alpha and the Omega"?

Why are you insisting that he has to be called "Almighty God" in Revelation when it is clear he is God by several other passages in the bible (which I already gave you)? Are you trying to divide the bible into isolated books to claim he is not God, just because it is not specific enough for you in Revelation? Jesus claiming the titles of God in Revelation, like Alpha and Omega and First and Last would be blasphemous if Jesus was not God.

God speaking: Rev 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”
21:6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children.


Jesus Speaking: 12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

One Bad Pig
11-11-2016, 02:15 PM
Why are you insisting that he has to be called "Almighty God" in Revelation when it is clear he is God by several other passages in the bible (which I already gave you)? Are you trying to divide the bible into isolated books to claim he is not God, just because it is not specific enough for you in Revelation? Jesus claiming the titles of God in Revelation, like Alpha and Omega and First and Last would be blasphemous if Jesus was not God.
Pretty much. Revelation quotes or alludes to the OT more often than any other NT book. Reading Revelation without referring back to those contexts is useless.

John Reece
11-11-2016, 02:49 PM
Rev. 12:9 The great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, proclaiming, “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Messiah, for the accuser of our comrades has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.

The salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Messiah are indivisible.

37818
11-13-2016, 04:05 PM
It appears that Jesus is called the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, and the beginning and the ending. But it doesn't appear that he is called the Almighty God.

What does this tell us?It tells us two things. First, Jesus as the Christ has two natures. Second, your reading of the texts ingnores cross contexts where the pre-incarnate Christ refers to Himself as Almighty God.

". . . And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. . . ." -- Genesis 17:1.

". . . No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. . . ." -- John 1:18.

". . . I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. . . ." -- John 8:24.
". . . Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. . . ." -- John 8:56.

". . . Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. . . ." -- John 14:6.

Unitarian101
11-23-2016, 05:53 AM
It appears that Jesus is called the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, and the beginning and the ending. But it doesn't appear that he is called the Almighty God.

What does this tell us?

A careful reading of the Revelation shows that Jesus is never called the alpha and the Omega (τὸ Ἄλφα καὶ τὸ Ὦ). The expression is used only three times in the Revelation (Rev. 1:8, 21:6, 22:13) and each time it refers to the Father, and not to Jesus.

Unitarian101
11-23-2016, 06:00 AM
The Bible calls him God in a lot of places, as I posted. Alpha and Omega, First and Last are also titles of God. The implication is clear, that Jesus is God.

YHWH is the "First and the Last":

Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD says -- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God."

Isaiah 48:12 "Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last."

Jesus is the "First and the Last":

Rev. 1:17 "When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: ‘Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.’"

Rev. 2:8 "To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again."

Rev. 22:13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

That's not true. Here's (https://bible.org/article/sharp-redivivus-reexamination-granville-sharp-rule#_ftn4) Daniel Wallace:



Few today would take issue with Rudolf Bultmann’s oft-quoted line that “In describing Christ as ‘God’ the New Testament still exercises great restraint.”2 The list of passages which seem explicitly to identify Christ with God varies from scholar to scholar, but the number is almost never more than a half dozen or so.3 As is well known, almost all of the texts are disputed as to their affirmation—due to textual or grammatical glitches—John 1:1 and 20:28 being the only two which are usually conceded without discussion.4 Among the more highly regarded passages are Rom 9:5; 2 Thess 1:12; Titus 2:13; Heb 1:8; and 2 Pet 1:1.

And footnote 4 concedes that even John 1:1 and John 20:28 are debatable :


Even here there is debate however. See Harris, Jesus as God, 51-71 (on John 1:1), 105-129 (on John 20:28).

John Reece
11-23-2016, 12:10 PM
"Debatable" does not mean "not true".

There are always people who will debate and not accept things that are indeed quite true.

Atheists are such people.

I accept as true and affirm ― along with all the other "debatable" texts that assert the same truth ― Thomas' declaration to Jesus: "My Lord and my God"!

Sparko
11-23-2016, 01:04 PM
That's not true. Here's (https://bible.org/article/sharp-redivivus-reexamination-granville-sharp-rule#_ftn4) Daniel Wallace:




And footnote 4 concedes that even John 1:1 and John 20:28 are debatable :

Nothing you quoted denied that Jesus was claiming to be God in Revelation with the title "First and Last" or in other places in the bible. All you showed is that the bible is "restrained" in calling him God, not that it does not.

Try harder.

Unitarian101
11-23-2016, 04:13 PM
Hi Sparko,


Nothing you quoted denied that Jesus was claiming to be God in Revelation with the title "First and Last" or in other places in the bible. All you showed is that the bible is "restrained" in calling him God, not that it does not.

Try harder.

You said the bible calls Jesus "God" in "a lot " of places. This assertion is false, with even Trinitarian scholarship in disagreement with your claim. According to Wallace for instance, there are barely six different verses in the bible where Jesus is called God, none beyond reproach.

Sparko
11-23-2016, 04:26 PM
Hi Sparko,



You said the bible calls Jesus "God" in "a lot " of places. This assertion is false, with even Trinitarian scholarship in disagreement with your claim. According to Wallace for instance, there are barely six different verses in the bible where Jesus is called God, none beyond reproach.

sigh.

Unitarian101
11-23-2016, 04:26 PM
"Debatable" does not mean "not true".

There are always people who will debate and not accept things that are indeed quite true.

Atheists are such people.

I accept as true and affirm ― along with all the other "debatable" texts that assert the same truth ― Thomas' declaration to Jesus: "My Lord and my God"!

Correct. The problem however is that none of the verses which apparently call Jesus "God" in the GNT are built upon an unshakable foundation, all of them are [easily,IMHO] disputable, permitting an entirely different interpretation other than that Jesus is "God". Here's William Barclay, Jesus as They Saw Him, p.21. :


"It is when we begin to examine the evidence that we run into very real difficulties. The
evidence is not extensive. But we shall find that on almost every occasion in the New
Testament on which Jesus seems to be called God there is a problem either of
textual criticism or of translation. In almost every case we have to discuss which of
two readings is to be accepted or which of two possible translations is to be accepted."


D.A. Fennema ( John 1.18: God the Only Son, p. 125) is more blunt :


"Most of the passages which may call Jesus ‘God’ are plagued by textual variants or
syntactical obscurity, either of which permits an entirely different interpretation of the
passage."

Ref (http://servetustheevangelical.com/doc/Jesus_Is_God_Bible_Verses.pdf):

John Reece
11-23-2016, 06:40 PM
Correct. The problem however is that none of the verses which apparently call Jesus "God" in the GNT are built upon an unshakable foundation, all of them are [easily,IMHO] disputable, permitting an entirely different interpretation other than that Jesus is "God". ....

'All verses that call Jesus "God" are "easily disputable"' ― in your not really humble opinion ― in your mind because of your presuppositions as an atheist.

From your reference "Jesus Is God Bible Verses?" by Servetus the Evangelical":


.... Traditionalists cite John 1.1c and 20.28 as incontrovertible evidence Jesus is God. Oscar Cullmann calls them “indisputable;” Murray Harris says they are “incontestable.”

From The Gospel According to John, (Pillar: Eerdmans, 1991) by D. A. Carson, © 1991 D. A. Carson, page circa 117 via Accordance.


More, the Word was God. That is the translation demanded by the Greek structure, theos ēn ho logos. A long string of writers has argued that because theos, ‘God’, here has no article, John is not referring to God as a specific being, but to mere qualities of ‘God-ness’. The Word, they say, was not God, but divine. This will not do. There is a perfectly serviceable word in Greek for ‘divine’ (namely theios). More importantly, there are many places in the New Testament where the predicate noun has no article, and yet is specific. Even in this chapter, ‘you are the King of Israel’ (1:49) has no article before ‘King’ in the original (cf. also Jn. 8:39; 17:17; Rom. 14:17; Gal. 4:25; Rev. 1:20). It has been shown that it is common for a definite predicate noun in this construction, placed before the verb, to be anarthrous (that is, to have no article; ...). Indeed, the effect of ordering the words this way is to emphasize ‘God’, as if John were saying, ‘and the word was God!’ In fact, if John had included the article, he would have been saying something quite untrue. He would have been so identifying the Word with God that no divine being could exist apart from the Word. In that case, it would be nonsense to say (in the words of the second clause of this verse) that the Word was with God. The ‘Word does not by Himself make up the entire Godhead; nevertheless the divinity that belongs to the rest of the Godhead belongs also to Him’ (Tasker, p. 45. ‘The Word was with God, God’s eternal Fellow; the Word was God, God’s own Self.’)

You really cannot refute Carson's exegesis; nor can you refute the exegetical conclusions arrived at by the competent scholarship of Oscar Cullmann and Murray Harris (cited in your work quoted above).

Give it up and go away, you are wasting your time and mine.

Sparko
11-23-2016, 06:46 PM
Unitarian, you probably don't want to argue Greek with John Reece. He knows it inside and out.

Unitarian101
11-23-2016, 07:08 PM
'All verses that call Jesus "God" are "easily disputable"' ― in your not really humble opinion ― in your mind because of your presuppositions as an atheist.

From your reference "Jesus Is God Bible Verses?" by Servetus the Evangelical":


.... Traditionalists cite John 1.1c and 20.28 as incontrovertible evidence Jesus is God. Oscar Cullmann calls them “indisputable;” Murray Harris says they are “incontestable.”

From The Gospel According to John, (Pillar: Eerdmans, 1991) by D. A. Carson, © 1991 D. A. Carson, page circa 117 via Accordance.


More, the Word was God. That is the translation demanded by the Greek structure, theos ēn ho logos. A long string of writers has argued that because theos, ‘God’, here has no article, John is not referring to God as a specific being, but to mere qualities of ‘God-ness’. The Word, they say, was not God, but divine. This will not do. There is a perfectly serviceable word in Greek for ‘divine’ (namely theios). More importantly, there are many places in the New Testament where the predicate noun has no article, and yet is specific. Even in this chapter, ‘you are the King of Israel’ (1:49) has no article before ‘King’ in the original (cf. also Jn. 8:39; 17:17; Rom. 14:17; Gal. 4:25; Rev. 1:20). It has been shown that it is common for a definite predicate noun in this construction, placed before the verb, to be anarthrous (that is, to have no article; ...). Indeed, the effect of ordering the words this way is to emphasize ‘God’, as if John were saying, ‘and the word was God!’ In fact, if John had included the article, he would have been saying something quite untrue. He would have been so identifying the Word with God that no divine being could exist apart from the Word. In that case, it would be nonsense to say (in the words of the second clause of this verse) that the Word was with God. The ‘Word does not by Himself make up the entire Godhead; nevertheless the divinity that belongs to the rest of the Godhead belongs also to Him’ (Tasker, p. 45. ‘The Word was with God, God’s eternal Fellow; the Word was God, God’s own Self.’)

You really cannot refute Carson's exegesis; nor can you refute the exegetical conclusions arrived at by the competent scholarship of Oscar Cullmann and Murray Harris (cited in your work quoted above).

Give it up and go away, you are wasting your time and mine.

Your source (Carson ) seems to be arguing that the anarthrous θεὸς at John 1:1c is definite and not "qualitative." He disagrees with "a long string of[Trinitarian] writers" on this score.. His position is rejected by the majority of Trinitarian scholarship for a good reason, because it argues for Sabelianism and against Trinitarianism.

John Reece
11-23-2016, 07:24 PM
Your source (Carson ) seems to be arguing that the anarthrous θεὸς at John 1:1c is definite and not "qualitative." He disagrees with "a long string of[Trinitarian] writers" on this score.. His position is rejected by the majority of Trinitarian scholarship for a good reason, because it argues for Sabelianism and against Trinitarianism.

You bore me; as I said before "go away".

Unitarian101
11-23-2016, 10:20 PM
It tells us two things. First, Jesus as the Christ has two natures. Second, your reading of the texts ingnores cross contexts where the pre-incarnate Christ refers to Himself as Almighty God.

". . . And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. . . ." -- Genesis 17:1.

". . . No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. . . ." -- John 1:18.

". . . I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. . . ." -- John 8:24.
". . . Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. . . ." -- John 8:56.

". . . Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. . . ." -- John 14:6.

This is biblical eisegesis however. John 8:24 for instance has no relation to Genesis 17:1. It's not even saying that Jesus is God. Neither is John 1:18, nor John 8:58.