"It's my body, it's my choice, it's my fetus, it's my reproductive system!"

[MarcusAndreas]

Not everything is about you!

[The Moonshield]

That pretty much sums it up.

[technomage]

While I quite agree, and while I oppose abortion vehemently, I do need to point out that more people will be persuaded by kindness and compassion than by shouting at them.

[Messor Mortis]

While I quite agree, and while I oppose abortion vehemently, I do need to point out that more people will be persuaded by kindness and compassion than by shouting at them. i would disagree

[technomage]

But do you have any basis (beyond your own desires) for that disagreement?

[Messor Mortis]

But do you have any basis (beyond your own desires) for that disagreement? i dont believe shouting at poeple would work but as for abortion i dont believe kindness would be the best strategy

[technomage]

That is a more complete explanation of what you believe, but still gives no explanation of the basis for your belief.

[Messor Mortis]

pain is a good motivator oftentimes a very good motivator

[technomage]

And yet again--this is not the basis for your belief.

"Basis" means "Authority." Upon what authority do you base your belief?

[Messor Mortis]

the basis for believing abortion is wrong or the basis for believing that kindness in this matter is not a good strategy?

[technomage]

Specifically--the basis for believing that you have the authority to cause other people pain.

[Messor Mortis]

Specifically--the basis for believing that you have the authority to cause other people pain.
no one has yet to convince me i dont. I believe the ends justify the means therefore if a little brutality makes abortion a minor issue i have no issue with it

[technomage]

Are you, indeed, a Christian, and do you follow the commandments of Jesus Christ? (No, that's not a slam or a trick question.)

[Messor Mortis]

Are you, indeed, a Christian, and do you follow the commandments of Jesus Christ? (No, that's not a slam or a trick question.)
you should know the answer to this question.

[technomage]

I am not going from assumptions.

Are you, indeed, a Christian? Do you follow the commandments of Jesus Christ?

[Messor Mortis]

yes

[technomage]

Very well.

First step: Go re-read Luke 18:9-14. Which of the two men does your behavior most closely resemble?

[Dee Dee Warren]

I am confused.

the OP sums it up. I don't see us dissuading other types of murder by kindness and compassion. I sure wish someone really got up in my face before I murdered my children.

[Jedidiah]

Reason does work. I managed to convince one person, one time. Nothing to boast of, but one less pro abortion person in the world. And it was simply by reasoning.

[technomage]

I am confused.

Mortis is more concerned with what to do to a person after they have an abortion (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=2421888&postcount=52) than how to persuade them from having one.

[Michelle]

I am confused.

the OP sums it up. I don't see us dissuading other types of murder by kindness and compassion. I sure wish someone really got up in my face before I murdered my children.
Yeah, you're right. I think when I was young I DID think it was all about me. I'm not sure yelling would've made a difference because I don't tend to listen to what someone is saying when they are yelling, but if someone had been more honest - perhaps got up in my face - I might have been dissuaded. Or, I don't know, put a baby in my arms and said, "This is what you're killing." That might have done it.

[Messor Mortis]

Mortis is more concerned with what to do to a person after they have an abortion (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=2421888&postcount=52) than how to persuade them from having one. technomage is exactly right i am more concerned with what happens afterwards rather then "preemptive" actions.

[semmie]

Not everything is about you!


right.

but....you cannot hold such a standard for women when the rest of our society is just as self-focused. the problem here isn't with women; it's with the society that tells us the most important thing is to look out for "number one," and a church that has been too quiet on the subject--and thus, has become just as self-focused.

you just...you can't hold that standard for women when even our churches are focused on self-pleasure and self-promotion.

[auggybendoggy]

I think Messor is reflecting on the holocaust. Should we have stopped the nazi's with kindness?

Some people see abortion that way, as a even worse holocaust.

I sympathize but I don't know that we should take up arms. Although at times I sympathize with it. I HATE ABORTION!

Aug

[Dee Dee Warren]

Yeah, you're right. I think when I was young I DID think it was all about me. I'm not sure yelling would've made a difference because I don't tend to listen to what someone is saying when they are yelling, but if someone had been more honest - perhaps got up in my face - I might have been dissuaded. Or, I don't know, put a baby in my arms and said, "This is what you're killing." That might have done it.

Yeah that might have done it for me too. One pro-life counseling center gives the women a gift basket with baby supplies, little booties and the like, and that symbolism alone moves many of them to change their minds. Many of them then choose adoption. It is not a shame to admit that you cannot care for a child now, or even that you don't want to. It is a shame to kill that child.

[Dee Dee Warren]

technomage is exactly right i am more concerned with what happens afterwards rather then "preemptive" actions.

What happenes afterwards is that you have a pile of baby parts to be disposed of.

Want to know what happens in some abortuaries? With my first abortion, I didn't have much money, so I could only get the cheapest one which allowed very little for pain. I was screaming once it started. The "doctor" literally yelled back at me, well this is what you are here for, want me to stop now (impossible without serious health complications btw) or have my nurse go out there and talk to your boyfriend and mother about coming up with some more money."

This is absolute truth. My mother paid the pain bribe money.

The second clinic wasn't like that, but they never went over the alternatives or encouraged me to really think about it or tell me about the support that was available to me should I choose to gift that baby to a couple who couldn't conceive that was desparately wanting a child.

[Hamster]

The "doctor" literally yelled back at me, well this is what you are here for, want me to stop now (impossible without serious health complications btw) or have my nurse go out there and talk to your boyfriend and mother about coming up with some more money."


Wow, that's sick.

[Dee Dee Warren]

And absolutely true. I was barely 18 at the time. I found them through a classified ad in the paper for a Planned Parenthood office who referred me there.

I was not told what to expect, I was not kept there afterwards for any amount of time to make sure I was okay. Wham bam thank you ma'am.

Now the other facility was the complete opposite, I have to give truth from both experiences. The staff at the other facility was kind, and they kept you there in a recovery room for quite a bit of time, and a very nice nurse held my hand the whole time. I just wish they had the same compassion for my baby, but they treated me very well.

That facility still exists, and I have been on both sides of the protest lines there.

[Michelle]

Wow, that's sick.You wouldn't believe how incredibly sick this whole empowerment for women experience was for me, as well. It was one of the most degrading things I've ever been through.

[Dee Dee Warren]

You wouldn't believe how incredibly sick this whole empowerment for women experience was for me, as well. It was one of the most degrading things I've ever been through.

Not to get too personal, but during the first time, all kinds of alarm bells should have went up for the "doctor" - I am lucky I am came through it okay. Now I know that I am a tremendous bleeder and any kind of female procedure even routine necessary visits are very painful for me. None of that raised any flags for that "doctor" that the bleeding was abnormal and my pain threshold was abnormal.

When I had my tonsils out later in life I was hospitalized between one and two weeks because they just kept bleeding.

I once had to have a biopsy for an abnormal PAP and was sent home and went to bed and when I woke up my entire pj bottoms and sheets were soaked with blood.

I am very lucky I was not severely injured or even died from that first experience.

[Dee Dee Warren]

You wouldn't believe how incredibly sick this whole empowerment for women experience was for me, as well. It was one of the most degrading things I've ever been through.

What was really strange was during my second abortion it was obvious that the nurses were consoling me for some kind of "loss." Everyone knows whether they admit it or not what is going on. If this is not a life worthy of protection, why the sympathy for the loss?

I had a bladder biopsy a few months ago. It was very painful as well, and the nurse held my hand the whole time as well, but never was there that sense of "loss" for the poor piece of tissue that had to be removed to be analysed.

[MarcusAndreas]

That's a good point Darth Xena.

[MarcusAndreas]

even routine necessary visits are very painful for me.
Your just like my mom, procedures people normally can tolerate are extremely painful for her.
Sorry about the pain. :pray:

Personally, I can tolerate a very large amount of pain.

When I was a baby and getting shots, I didn't notice, let alone cry.

[The Moonshield]

What was really strange was during my second abortion it was obvious that the nurses were consoling me for some kind of "loss." Everyone knows whether they admit it or not what is going on. If this is not a life worthy of protection, why the sympathy for the loss?

Great point.

The fetus is supposedly just a ball of cells; a parasitic life (if it is even granted the status of "living") that leeches off of the mother. Why would the removal of a parasitic ball of cells constitute any kind of tragic loss worth mourning under this view? It makes no sense at all.