When did the Millinium begin ? Preterists

[David]

I must have missed it in history, Preterists brethren, when did the Millinium begin exactly. And did we all miss the 2nd coming of the Lord just before that ? Or did Jesus take control of this world just from the heavenlies at some time in the past, and it was all done very secretively ......... at the beginning of the Millinium.

So in all sincerity, could you tell me and others when the Millinium began and when it will end, because Millinium definitely means 1000 years, and so I would assume that the 1000 years is not up, and hence any year you would give as the start of the Millinium can't be before 1003 A.D. So I definitely would like to be corrected on this most important event, how it happenned and especially when it happenned.

David

PS) Darn and I was hoping to go to the Marriage supper of the lamb, the wedding feast of the bride of Christ, and now apparrently you say I and we all missed it. Such a pity. But somebody must have gone. So what date was it that the Millinium started and Jesus brought in peace to the world. And please, please be specific. Thanks

Hoping to hear from you even if you Preterist brethren have different opinions about this date in history. I certainly don't want to be looking for something that apparrently already happenned. Did we all miss the rapture as well. Darn..... again

[joelkaki]

You assume that Christ had to come a SECOND time for the millennium to start. I disagree with that. It was instituted at his ascension to the Father after his First advent. (Take a look at Daniel 7:13-14 and ACts 1:9).

You also assume that 1000 is literal. I do not agree that it is. 1000 is very often symbolic for a large number in the Bible, and Revelation is a very highly symbolic book.

Why don't you actually study preterist doctrine, study the evidence for it, and then get back with us with actual refutation rather than insults and sarcasm.


Joel

[Darth Xena]

Dear David:

I will certainly get to at some point answer your post as it is a legitimate question, but as a sister in the Lord, I would appreciate it if you would tone down the sarcasm. If not, well that is your choice, but I figured it can't hurt to ask. And yes, I know that I have been guilty of the same thing, but generally speaking, I try (and sometimes fail) not to start the conversation that way. That is usually not a good sign.

[David]

Fine DEE DEE,

But in the real world, in real debate you show the errors of the opposition and try to get them to answer questions. And do note that I call pretrists brethren in my posts, as I wouldn;t waste time on those that have their minds made up. And I do believe preterists are brethren in Christ and I do want them to study prophecy more and more, rather than thinking that Christ is ruling and reigning on the Earth. because in the real world, no offense, but I just don;t see it...

So let me phrase it differently .

When did the Millinium start, what exact year? Or what century ?

Please respond with a year and a date, rather than saying a 1,000 doesn;t mean a 1000 and a Rapture doesn;t mean a rapture, and the tribulation does't mean tribulation.

In this thread I am looking for exactness and preciseness, as I am a scientist, and events happen in real time. Events are events, so if you don;t know the time of the Millinium, give us the exact event that brought on the Millinium.....

That's a normal question, straight forward and simple.

Date, event .....

Thanks

[Darth Xena]

Thank you David!!! It is much appreciated.

[Ishmael]

02-22-2003 @ 10:19 AM
David:
Fine DEE DEE,
But in the real world, in real debate you show the errors of the opposition and try to get them to answer questions.


Actually, in the "real world" people ussually have a clue about what it is they are talking about and it is obvious to many people on the board that you do not.

You have not shown any "errors" in Preterism because you haven't said anything except: "...because Millinium [sic] definitely means 1000 years..."

Bible prophecy is not really my area so maybe I missed the part of the bible that mentions "The Millinium [SIC]"... I had thought that the Bible used the expression "1000 years."

Maybe I am wrong or maybe you are a naval gazing moron without a clue of what you are talking about. To quote a fine apologist, "JELLO."

http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?SearchType=AND&language=english&searchpage=0&search=Millennium&version=KJV


And do note that I call pretrists brethren in my posts, as I wouldn;t waste time on those that have their minds made up. And I do believe preterists are brethren in Christ and I do want them to study prophecy more and more, rather than thinking that Christ is ruling and reigning on the Earth. because in the real world, no offense, but I just don;t see it...


Perhaps you should study "more and more, rather..." than post something which is pure drivel. Pretending to be a student of the subject to which you just made a buffoon of yourself upon is more reason to laugh at you. Pathetic. :rofl:


So let me phrase it differently .

When did the Millinium start, what exact year? Or what century ?

Please respond with a year and a date, rather than saying a 1,000 doesn;t mean a 1000 and a Rapture doesn;t mean a rapture, and the tribulation does't mean tribulation.

In this thread I am looking for exactness and preciseness, as I am a scientist, and events happen in real time. Events are events, so if you don;t know the time of the Millinium, give us the exact event that brought on the Millinium.....

That's a normal question, straight forward and simple.

Date, event .....

Thanks

I will let Dee Dee Warren respond (I am sure politely) to this "question" filled with obviously ignorant opinion. And I do mean "ignorant" in the technical sense.

[David]

Quoting somebody that quotes somebody that quotes somebody else gets confusing...but as can be seen no preterist can declare any exact and precise to this date concerning the question as to when the Millinium started and when it stops, although I think they are admitting it has to be a 1000 years unless a year doesn;t mean a year, to them, and the Tribulation isn;t really the tribulation, and the resurrection did happen but not really, and Jesus did sort of come but didn;t come all the weay etc. etc.

I prefer exactness and preciseness rather than negating of meanings with word twistings.

I rest my case, as the answer is obvious that preterist doctrine can NOT have a timeline or can the doctrine allow for any event of any start of the Millinium.


And now for some quotes of some quotes

************8

[QUOTE]02-22-2003 @ 04:38 PM
Calvinist:



Actually, in the "real world" people ussually have a clue about what it is they are talking about and it is obvious to many people on the board that you do not.

Saying other people think I am clueless is a slur and subjective, you can say that fiturist doctrine is clueless but not the name of a futurist like myself. Keep your coments objective rather than subjective. We have went over the difference many times. Preterists can call prophecy and the futurists doctrine dumb and clueless and vice versa, but you Can NOT and should not say I am clueless. That's inflammatory even if you suggest the whole Board of preterist deem me clueless. Which is also an attempt at group intimidation !! That is surely against the rules here !!!

And when you call me a naval gazing moron, again I would think the moderator might not be too happy with your deflamatory subjective, arguments. if you don;t know how to debate in the spirit then reframe...And please IMO don;
't state the following again..

******************

Maybe I am wrong or maybe you are a naval gazing moron without a clue of what you are talking about. To quote a fine apologist, "JELLO."

****** And again saying what I say is pure drivel is hardly in the spirit of Christian debate. I hope you are chided for such horrible language that is so subjective...even from those who believe similarly as we are suppose to be Christian brethren


**** and when you start laughing at me that again is horrible deflamation so that even your own preterists should be offended by your comments......



Perhaps you should study "more and more, rather..." than post something which is pure drivel. Pretending to be a student of the subject to which you just made a buffoon of yourself upon is more reason to laugh at you. Pathetic. :rofl:



If this continues, preterists can talk to preterist rather than about prophecy. with people like me that differ in viewpoint Thanks Hoping to hear some comments about your horrible posting..

Shameful in my opinion...


IN His Service

David

I await the apologies for your speech !!!

[joelkaki]

Did you happen to see my post? The Millennium started at Christ's ascension, I suppose that is in the A.D 30 and on realm--exact date, well, the exact day, month, and year of Christ's ascension may be debated. However, it started at His ascension recorded in Acts 1:9 and whether or not I have an exact A.D date is irrelevant.

Another note: The newspaper is not our source for truth. The Bible is. If the Bible says something is true, then whether or not you see it in" the real world" is irrelevant also. I see it fairly plainly.


Joel

[Ishmael]

02-22-2003 @ 02:38 PM
David:
Quoting somebody that quotes somebody that quotes somebody else gets confusing...but as can be seen no preterist can declare any exact and precise to this date concerning the question as to when the Millinium [SIC] started and when it stops, although I think they are admitting it has to be a 1000 years unless a year doesn;t mean a year, to them, and the Tribulation isn;t really the tribulation, and the resurrection did happen but not really, and Jesus did sort of come but didn;t come all the weay etc. etc.


You don't understand Preterism at all and are therefore ignorantly asking a question which is irrelevant to the viewpoint. And, btw, are still spelling Millenium incorrectly.


I prefer exactness and preciseness rather than negating of meanings with word twistings.

I rest my case, as the answer is obvious that preterist doctrine can NOT have a timeline or can the doctrine allow for any event of any start of the Millinium.


You have not substantiated anything you have implied about Preterism in the first post to this thread; in fact, your first comments show that you don't even understand the basics of Preterist thought on the Millennium. Your lack of "exactness and preciseness" (redundant) contradicts your stated "preference" for debate.


And now for some quotes of some quotes


What are you talking about? I quoted and responded to your inane and sarcastic “question” loaded with know-it-all futurist opinion .

02-22-2003 @ 04:38 PM
Calvinist:
Actually, in the "real world" people ussually have a clue about what it is they are talking about and it is obvious to many people on the board that you do not.


Saying other people think I am clueless is a slur and subjective, you can say that fiturist [SIC]doctrine is clueless but not the name of a futurist like myself. Keep your coments [SIC] objective rather than subjective. We have went over the difference many times. Preterists [SIC} can call prophecy and the futurists doctrine dumb and clueless and vice versa,

Saying other people think I am clueless is a slur and subjective

No, it’s not. It’s a statement of opinion about your knowledge of Preterist thought based on what YOU presented in your posts; namely:

because Millinium definitely means 1000 years, and so I would assume that the 1000 years is not up, and hence any year you would give as the start of the Millinium can't be before 1003 A.D. So I definitely would like to be corrected on this most important event, how it happenned and especially when it happenned.

It’s not just that you don’t have enough knowledge of the subject to be precise in question asking, you also used sarcasm in your initial post to imply that Preterism is obviously wrong because of the statement, “Millinium [SIC] definitely means 1000 years.” It’s a nonsensical argument and shows a flat ignorance of Apocalyptic literature in general and Preterism in specific.

Which is also an attempt at group intimidation !! That is surely against the rules here !!!

Preterits intimidating futurists on Theology Forums??? ……. Scenario sounds vaguely familiar for some reason………….


but you Can NOT and should not say I am clueless. That's inflammatory even if you suggest the whole Board of preterist deem me clueless. Which is also an attempt at group intimidation !! That is surely against the rules here !!!

And when you call me a naval gazing moron, again I would think the moderator might not be too happy with your deflamatory [SIC] subjective, arguments. if you don;t know how to debate in the spirit then reframe...And please IMO don;
't state the following again..


Not trying to “intimidate” only trying to make sure that you are thoroughly exposed and thrashed for your “naval gazing” and “moronic” post from the first. Now if you had simply asked the question uncharged by Futurist rhetoric you would not have even heard from me in the first place. Don’t like me now? Too bad. Try and think before you post.


And again saying what I say is pure drivel is hardly in the spirit of Christian debate. I hope you are chided for such horrible language that is so subjective...even from those who believe similarly as we are suppose to be Christian brethren


**** and when you start laughing at me that again is horrible deflamation [SIC] so that even your own preterists should be offended by your comments......


Don’t like me now??

“deflamation” [SIC] If I have “deflamed” you, maybe you should speak with a lawyer? That’s a serious charge, indeed.
:rofl:


If this continues, preterists can talk to preterist rather than about prophecy. with people like me that differ in viewpoint Thanks Hoping to hear some comments about your horrible posting..

Shameful in my opinion...

IN His Service

David

I await the apologies for your speech !!!

No, what is shameful is a person who is not well equipped for a debate comes in a taking shots at something they obviously know nothing about AND THEN whines cause the “bad man” took them to task. You probably aren’t a moron, but you sure look like one to me. Study a bit and say something intelligent about Preterism or how Futurism beats Preterism upon careful scholarship and I shall give you that apology. Until then I wouldn’t hold your breath waiting for those apologies. You got exactly what you asked for IMO.

In His Service,

Calvinist

[David]

Thank you Joel, you at least being honest and giving your opinion that the Millinium started in 30 Ad give or take a year or two. Fine, but that means it was over in 1030 A.D. , and according to preterists doctrine there should have been a Great White Throne Judgment at that time.

And as far as I know there wasn't. Matter of fact 30 AD was the time of jesus ascension to heaven rather than His Second Coming was it not, so don;t Preterist believe in the 2nd Coming of Christ. I again suggest this is am honest question by me ? For I have never heard of Christians before that didn;t believe in the Lord's 2nd Coming.

Hoping to hear from you.

And I appreciate you Not calling me a moron, like Volatile did....This is what bothers me about Christian debate, it turns into name calling rather than a discussion. I hate name calling and slandering and seeing my Forum is underr attack by liars and deceivers, and I have been banned from my own Board by such liying and deceiving. I am just in no mood in teaching or discussing prophecy right now....

Losing an argument doesn;t nessitate anger and vile and name calling, again ...... objectivity and NOT subjectibe name calling.

So dear preterists do realize you are first and foremost Christians and what minor doctrine or doctrines you hold are not YOU, discussing a minor dioctrine like preterism is NOT you it is not an attack on you if your doctrine about the future is wrong...it just means you correct your mistake. You don;t have to get personal and call others morons.

You can say believeing in the future or prophecy is moronic but don;t call people morons.

I have just about had it with wrathful BB's, I pray this one doesn;t turn into one and besides I can't change anyone Mind, it has to be the Lord and your decisions.

Thanks

[David]

Calvin,

I await your apologies for your slanderous name calling posting. Please apologize immediately !!!

I'm tired of wrathful people !!

David

[bar Jonah]

02-22-2003 @ 09:38 AM
Calvinist:

Maybe I am wrong or maybe you are a naval gazing moron without a clue of what you are talking about. To quote a fine apologist, "JELLO."
Calvinist, please refrain from calling people childish names. All it does is destroy your own credibility and make you out to be someone with a childish mentality. We are adults. Let's act like it and maintain an edifying discussion. Otherwise, there's no point in continuing the conversation.

[Ishmael]

02-22-2003 @ 11:02 PM
RightIdea:


Calvinist, please refrain from calling people childish names. All it does is destroy your own credibility and make you out to be someone with a childish mentality. We are adults. Let's act like it and maintain an edifying discussion. Otherwise, there's no point in continuing the conversation.

I had mentioned that he probably wasn't a moron earlier.

[Theolog]

If the millennium is synonymous with the kingdom of God on earth I believe it started at the birth of Christ.

My how I love sticking my neck out.

[Ishmael]

02-22-2003 @ 10:49 PM
David:

Thank you Joel, you at least being honest and giving your opinion that the Millinium started in 30 Ad give or take a year or two. Fine, but that means it was over in 1030 A.D. , and according to preterists doctrine there should have been a Great White Throne Judgment at that time.

And as far as I know there wasn't. Matter of fact 30 AD was the time of jesus ascension to heaven rather than His Second Coming was it not, so don;t Preterist believe in the 2nd Coming of Christ. I again suggest this is am honest question by me ? For I have never heard of Christians before that didn;t believe in the Lord's 2nd Coming.

Hoping to hear from you.

And I appreciate you Not calling me a moron, like Volatile did....This is what bothers me about Christian debate, it turns into name calling rather than a discussion. I hate name calling and slandering and seeing my Forum is underr attack by liars and deceivers, and I have been banned from my own Board by such liying and deceiving. I am just in no mood in teaching or discussing prophecy right now....

Losing an argument doesn;t nessitate anger and vile and name calling, again ...... objectivity and NOT subjectibe name calling.

So dear preterists do realize you are first and foremost Christians and what minor doctrine or doctrines you hold are not YOU, discussing a minor dioctrine like preterism is NOT you it is not an attack on you if your doctrine about the future is wrong...it just means you correct your mistake. You don;t have to get personal and call others morons.

You can say believeing in the future or prophecy is moronic but don;t call people morons.

I have just about had it with wrathful BB's, I pray this one doesn;t turn into one and besides I can't change anyone Mind, it has to be the Lord and your decisions.

Thanks

Let me remind you of your intial post in this thread that got this all started. It is full of condescending sarcasm. That is how low an opinion you have of Preterists and your post was responded to in kind by yours truly. You really have nothing to complain about IMO.

[Theolog]

02-22-2003 @ 09:07 PM
Calvinist:
I had mentioned that he probably wasn't a moron earlier.

Hello Calvinist
Although I can appreciate your style as calling em like I sees em is one of my many faults, it has recently been called to my attention that most of us Calvinists are a little short on the love and patience which I am now trying to practice more. David is more than likely not a moron but a dispensationalist. Need I say more??

[bar Jonah]

Theolog, as a dispensationalist, I can honestly say that is a much better way of putting it. LOL :) Thank you.

[Hitch]

Thank you Joel, you at least being honest and giving your opinion that the Millinium started in 30 Ad give or take a year or two. Fine, but that means it was over in 1030 A.D. , and according to preterists doctrine there should have been a Great White Throne Judgment at that time.

And as far as I know there wasn't. Matter of fact 30 AD was the time of jesus ascension to heaven rather than His Second Coming was it not, so don;t Preterist believe in the 2nd Coming of Christ. I again suggest this is am honest question by me ? For I have never heard of Christians before that didn;t believe in the Lord's 2nd Coming.





David has been corrected on these very themes several times here at the forum and at least once on this very thread.

So to continue with the same nonsense over and over is by definition moronic.

Dave doesnt need and doesnt deserve yet another response that 'preterists, at least our local variety, believe in the future bodily return of Christ. He has demonstrated more more than once disregard for what has been posted that is contrary to his own needs and wishes. And its obvious RightIdea is not going to remind him of that...


Hitch

[bar Jonah]

Just because you didn't persuade him with your claims doesn't make him a moron, Hitch. Nor does it mean that he's not allowed to continue to express what he believes. If that were true, you'd have to shut up, as well. After all, we non-preterists and dispensationalists have given you much of our evidence for our views, and you still haven't changed your mind... so therefore you shouldn't say anything more? Of course that's silly.

I will remind you, however, to not call people names and resort to childish mudslinging. It hurts you more than anyone else, because it destroys your credibility.

[Darth Xena]

Dear David:

I was just browsing through, still got other things ahead on the pile to answer, but please know this. Orthodox preterists believe in every essential of the historic Christian faith, including the future Second Coming, the future bodily resurrection, and the future final judgment. You may be unaware that it is higly offensive to us for there to be a suggestion that we do not. I am sure any offense was unintended, so I making you aware. I believe it highly important in any debate to accurately portray your opposition, and I have pretty strongly held to this principle even to the point of defending points of view I don't agree with against what I thought were inaccurate definitions. Most people here will vouch for me on that, so I am not bringing this to your attention simply because it is my particular point of view under discussion.

However.... you certainly have ever right then to ask how we work that all out, but I would kindly ask you to acknowledge that we do affirm all these things. Hopefully when I get some time, I will be able to explain more so how chronologically. Thank you so much!!

[joelkaki]

Thank you Joel, you at least being honest and giving your opinion that the Millinium started in 30 Ad give or take a year or two. Fine, but that means it was over in 1030 A.D. , and according to preterists doctrine there should have been a Great White Throne Judgment at that time.

And as far as I know there wasn't. Matter of fact 30 AD was the time of jesus ascension to heaven rather than His Second Coming was it not, so don;t Preterist believe in the 2nd Coming of Christ. I again suggest this is am honest question by me ? For I have never heard of Christians before that didn;t believe in the Lord's 2nd Coming.



I believe I already said this but I am going to say it again.
1000 is not necessarily literal. Revelation is apocalyptic literature with a high degree of symbolism involved, and 1000 is used in other parts of the Bible to simply mean a very long time. In the Psalms for instance, it says that the Lord owns the cattle on a thousand hills. Does that mean the cattle on hill 1001 does not belong to him? Is it literally 1000 hills? No. 1000 is symbolic for a long time. Thus it can be the same in Revelation 20.

Joel

[Darth Xena]

Oh well, why not...


Okay about the “thousand years.” Basically you are asking how do we know that it is not a “literal” one thousand years. Well first of all, in hindsight we know it because it has been more than a thousand years since the “millennium” started and it has not ended yet. That is the pragmatic and admittedly circular answer. But the exegetical answer is quite simple as well. Revelation contains hundreds of allusions to the Old Testament and is thoroughly seeped in Jewish symbolism. In Jewish idiom and poetic thought, numbers were important. Ten was the number of quantitative completeness. (seven by contrast is the number of qualitative completeness. Three is the number of amplification. (for example, God is called “holy, holy, holy”) it stands for manyness. A thousand multiplies and intensifies this (10x10x10), in order to express great values [a perfect cube of ten – quantitative perfection] So,10x10x10 is quantitative completeness amplified. It is the perfect intensely complete period of time. Another example in Revelation demonstrates this:

Rev 5:11 – Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands.


The number thousand is commonly used this way in the OT. For example:

Ps 50:10 - For every beast of the forest is Mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills.

Thus God claims to own the cattle on a thousand hills (Ps. 50:10). This of course does not mean that the cattle on the 1001st hill belongs to someone else. God owns all the cattle on all the hills. But He says, “a thousand” to indicate that there are many hills and much cattle. See also:

Deut 1:11 – May the LORD God of your fathers make you a thousand times more numerous than you are, and bless you as He has promised you!

Deut 7:9 - Therefore know that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for a thousand generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments.

Job 9:2-3 – Truly I know it is so, but how can a man be righteous before God?
If one wished to contend with Him, he could not answer Him one time out of a thousand.

Psalm 68:17 – The chariots of God are twenty thousand, Even thousands of thousands; The Lord is among them as in Sinai, in the Holy Place.

Psalm 84:10 – For a day in Your courts is better than a thousand.

Ps 90:4 – For a thousand years in Your sight are like yesterday when it is past, and like a watch in the night.

Ps 105:8 – He remembers His covenant forever, the word which He commanded, for a thousand generations.

It was an idiom. We kind of today use the word “million” in the same way, and we must let the Bible tell us how to interpret the Bible.

Similarly the thousand years of Revelation 20 represent a vast, undefined period of time which fits in well with the OT descriptions of the Messianic reign as “everlasting” and “forever” which are Hebrew words designating a very long period of time but not necessarily forever as we understand it (for that would be in contradiction to what Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 15). A literal “one thousand” is not even the Hebrew idea of forever and would not fit in with the descriptions of the length of the Messianic reign. Remember that Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 15, that the “rapture” ENDS the Messianic reign of Christ, not begins it. So by necessity, the “millennium” precedes the rapture.

In light of all of this, it is interesting that such a crucial doctrine to premillenialism as the thousand year reign, is only supposedly mentioned here. If a literal earthly millennium is so prominent in the thoughts of the apostles and such an important era in redemptive history we should it expect to appear multiple times in the NT
NOT ONLY in the most figurative book of all Scripture.

[Hitch]

I[n light of all of this, it is interesting that such a crucial doctrine to premillenialism as the thousand year reign, is only supposedly mentioned here. If a literal earthly millennium is so prominent in the thoughts of the apostles and such an important era in redemptive history we should it expect to appear multiple times in the NT
NOT ONLY in the most figurative book of all Scripture.

Well silly its found right next to the Apostle's list of the dispensations...

H

[Hitch]

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:bawl:
,,, :yipee: :cheers::yipee:
,,............ :angel:
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:help:

[Theolog]

whew back under the spell:eek:

[Ishmael]

02-22-2003 @ 11:24 PM
Theolog:



Hello Calvinist
Although I can appreciate your style as calling em like I sees em is one of my many faults, it has recently been called to my attention that most of us Calvinists are a little short on the love and patience which I am now trying to practice more. David is more than likely not a moron but a dispensationalist. Need I say more??

Dispensationalism is not the point of my name calling. Go back and read the sarcasm in his first post. Add the sarcasm to the obvious intention in that post to suggest that Preterists are wrong because, after all, "Millinium [sic] defineately means 1000," and I get a little irked.

But you are right, of course...

[Ishmael]

And now that Dee Dee has given the plain answer I suppose David will be quiet.

[Hitch]

Just because you didn't persuade him with your claims doesn't make him a moron, Hitch.



You are misusing your MODERATOR status and spreading falsehood by inuendo. This is a dishonest practice and contrary to the letter and spirit of the rules of this forum.

I demand you produce from my post where I said any such thing as you have implied above.

1. In which of my posts on this thread have I attempted and failed to persuade David of anything as you stated in your complaint ?

2. In which of my post on this thread have I stated ,implied or suggested that David not be allowed to continue to express what he believes and you implied?

3. In which post in this thread have anyone been called any 'name' by me?


You have stated and/or implied each of the items listed above. Each is dishonest unsolicited and unfounded, it is pure harrassment and its going to stop now.

Hitch

[bar Jonah]

02-23-2003 @ 08:07 PM
Hitch:

You are misusing your MODERATOR status and spreading falsehood by inuendo. This is a dishonest practice and contrary to the letter and spirit of the rules of this forum.

I demand you produce from my post where I said any such thing as you have implied above.

1. In which of my posts on this thread have I attempted and failed to persuade David of anything as you stated in your complaint ?

2. In which of my post on this thread have I stated ,implied or suggested that David not be allowed to continue to express what he believes and you implied?

3. In which post in this thread have anyone been called any 'name' by me?


You have stated and/or implied each of the items listed above. Each is dishonest unsolicited and unfounded, it is pure harrassment and its going to stop now.

Hitch
Hitch, first of all, I have no intention of showing anyone favoritism here, regardless of anyone's views. Although I am not perfect, as far as I'm concerned if someone who shares my views acts inappropriately and unreasonably, then this would reflect negatively on what I hold to be the truth. And I don't want that. So I would want to make a particular point to correct those holding the same views as I.

That said, I'll address your points.

1. If you aren't here to persuade people of your views, then I fail to understand your motives for posting anything. Of course you're here to persuade anyone who comes into the thread and reads. This should go without saying.

2. You implied that David should not continue.
David has been corrected on these very themes several times here at the forum and at least once on this very thread.

So to continue with the same nonsense over and over is by definition moronic.
You went on to say that he didn't even deserve a response. (Although you were giving him one, obviously.)

3. Referring to people as being "moronic" is the equivelant of name-calling, even if it is technically and semantically not quite the same thing. In regards to appropriate behavior, it is equivelant.

But I am not so much concerned with individual posts and comments as I am with your overall attitude. You came to this board with the almost single-minded purpose of attacking your brothers and sisters in Christ. You have been out for blood since day 1, and it is your primary reason for being here. And such an attitude is far from edifying, my brother.

It occurs to me that perhaps the reason some discussions here get so heated... is because people on both sides love God SO MUCH, that when they share their different views on God, that's precisely why it becomes so emotional and personal. It's as if we were debating someone's child. Can you imagine someone debating with you over whether your child is bad or good? A deeply personal issue, it's bound to raise the heat level in the room. And how much more do we love our God? Far more! (At least I hope!) So let's stand on that shared truth and go from there, Hitch. We are brothers. I'm going to see you in the heavenlies in the not-too-distant future. And we will have an infinite amount of time to discuss things and talk about what the truth REALLY is... because we'll have the benefit of getting to look at the answers in the back of the book, so to speak. And because we'll both be without sin, we won't be fighting or arguing. We'll be in perfect, edifying fellowship.

Until then, however... let's remember what we have in common -- God's grace, and a love for Him that transcends all theological issues. Surely we can discuss these issues here with a more edifying attitude...?

We must reason with each other with both love and truth. If we have only love and no truth, we'll just be postmodern fools spiralling around in relativism. If we have truth but no love, the truth will be wasted because of the animosity that will exist between two brothers. Truth and love, Hitch. You're practicing the principle of truth... I hope you'll recognize you need to work on the other.

[Hitch]

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Posted On: 02-24-2003 at 07:19 AM



RightIdea
Moderator
No self-esteem & lovin it
Posts: 363

Joined: Jan 2003

From: Bondage in Babylon

Status: Offline



Post# 23111


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
02-23-2003 @ 08:07 PM
Hitch:

You are misusing your MODERATOR status and spreading falsehood by inuendo. This is a dishonest practice and contrary to the letter and spirit of the rules of this forum.

I demand you produce from my post where I said any such thing as you have implied above.

1. In which of my posts on this thread have I attempted and failed to persuade David of anything as you stated in your complaint ?

2. In which of my post on this thread have I stated ,implied or suggested that David not be allowed to continue to express what he believes and you implied?

3. In which post in this thread have anyone been called any 'name' by me?


You have stated and/or implied each of the items listed above. Each is dishonest unsolicited and unfounded, it is pure harrassment and its going to stop now.

Hitch
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Hitch, first of all, I have no intention of showing anyone favoritism here, regardless of anyone's views. Although I am not perfect, as far as I'm concerned if someone who shares my views acts inappropriately and unreasonably, then this would reflect negatively on what I hold to be the truth. And I don't want that. So I would want to make a particular point to correct those holding the same views as I.I think straw man is the term you like.

That said, I'll address your points.

1. If you aren't here to persuade people of your views, then I fail to understand your motives for posting anything. Of course you're here to persuade anyone who comes into the thread and reads. This should go without saying. This does not address my point, it just another one of your doges, and why I come here is none of your business anyway. You are doing your normal run from the facts routine.

2. You implied that David should not continue.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David has been corrected on these very themes several times here at the forum and at least once on this very thread.

So to continue with the same nonsense over and over is by definition moronic.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You went on to say that he didn't even deserve a response. (Although you were giving him one, obviously.) Making things up about people and publishing them in a public forum is dishonest. You need to stop this now. There is no indication whatever in my post of what you accuse me of . you are making it up.

3. Referring to people as being "moronic" is the equivelant of name-calling, even if it is technically and semantically not quite the same thing. In regards to appropriate behavior, it is equivelant.

But I am not so much concerned with individual posts and comments as I am with your overall attitude. You came to this board with the almost single-minded purpose of attacking your brothers and sisters in Christ. You have been out for blood since day 1, and it is your primary reason for being here. And such an attitude is far from edifying, my brother. And from the first day you have placed your own uninvited spin on my posts to suit your mood. You are dishonest and your opinion is as unwelcome as it is worthless..

It occurs to me that perhaps the reason some discussions here get so heated... is because people on both sides love God SO MUCH, that when they share their different views on God, that's precisely why it becomes so emotional and personal. It's as if we were debating someone's child. Can you imagine someone debating with you over whether your child is bad or good? A deeply personal issue, it's bound to raise the heat level in the room. And how much more do we love our God? Far more! (At least I hope!) So let's stand on that shared truth and go from there, Hitch. We are brothers. I'm going to see you in the heavenlies in the not-too-distant future. And we will have an infinite amount of time to discuss things and talk about what the truth REALLY is... because we'll have the benefit of getting to look at the answers in the back of the book, so to speak. And because we'll both be without sin, we won't be fighting or arguing. We'll be in perfect, edifying fellowship.

Until then, however... let's remember what we have in common -- God's grace, and a love for Him that transcends all theological issues. Surely we can discuss these issues here with a more edifying attitude{ I have no intention or wish to talk with you at all. You have been on ignore since the first time you made up trash about what I had posted. And there you will stay. I dont care for those who make a practice of stradling the edge of the truth, beding this way and that as needed.

We must reason with each other with both love and truth. If we have only love and no truth, we'll just be postmodern fools spiralling around in relativism. If we have truth but no love, the truth will be wasted because of the animosity that will exist between two brothers. Truth and love, Hitch. You're practicing the principle of truth... I hope you'll recognize you need to work on the other. I have no intention to 'reason' with a tall tale fabracator such as your self. You have continued your harrasment of me and you have demonstrated your lack the anatomy to face up to your mistakes. You are by no means the type of person I care to be associated with.

Is that clear enough?

HITCH








multi-quote: /showthread.php?postid=23111#post23111






[close this window]

[bar Jonah]

What's clear is that you say you have me on Ignore (obviously not the case) and you say you have no desire to continue talking with me... which is also obviously not the case. You're still talking with me, reasoning with me. If you want to ignore me, there's not a blessed thing I can do to stop you, my brother. Honestly, that WOULD be a thousand times more edifying than your continuous attacks and insults, and your unending attitude of bashing anyone who disagrees with you.

Believe it or not, I keep you in my prayers, Hitch. The greatest irony here is that I used to be like you, until just a few weeks ago, until literally days before I first came here to Tweb. I used to go into a message board with guns blazing, shooting everyone up and getting right in people's faces. And everywhere I went, I was hated for it. But I was convicted of that unedifying behavior, and I praise God I came out of it. I'm far from perfect, and when I'm guilty of that again, I hope DeeDee or YXboom or another mod will correct me. But I no longer seek to attack others, constantly accuse others, always seek to tear other people down. And I have so much more joy in my life, and and a lot less stress and regret as a result.

If you're ignoring me, you won't even read these words. If you don't wish to talk to me, then don't. I guess time will tell what you really want to do here.

God bless the heck outta ya.

In His love,
Jim

[Bill K.]

David,
I have not read the whole thread so I apologize upfront if I am redundant.

I am a preterist of sorts (coupled with my own strain of amil).

I would argue that the writer of Revelations sees the "1000 years" as beginning in roughly 70 AD with the Parousia of Christ.
This does not mean that I believe it ended in 1070. It is purely symbolic as is so much of Revelation, so if the math is getting you down, I can only exhort you to study biblical symbols and how they function in the text. It ends when it ends, which is marked, in any respect, with the final resurrection and judgment of all the "rest of" mankind, Believer and unbeliever, who are then separated based on their presence in the Book of Life.

John describes what is clearly a literal resurrection of the faithful dead (this despite amil and postmil arguments to the contrary).
These faithful come out the Great Trib of 66 1/2-70 AD. They are a special lot who receive the special privilege of reigning with Christ during His "winepress" ministry aka., the "Times of the Gentiles."

I have found this to be the most workable solution for me.


In Christ,
Bill

[Reba]

Hitch,

I am prayerful you will never learn the feminine "arts" of sly undertones, sweet deceptions, killing kindness, . . .



Judges 16
:blush:

[bar Jonah]

I would like to say in all fairness to one thing Hitch said... that I've been told now that moderators cannot be put on Ignore. So while I didn't realize it at the time, I take his word for it that he put me on Ignore and it (naturally) didn't work.

Just for clarification.

[Reba]

I have a question for the computer wizzes here?


If a person was put on ignore before they became a moderator would they still be on ignore?

[Hitch]

02-27-2003 @ 01:14 AM
Reba:

I have a question for the computer wizzes here?


If a person was put on ignore before they became a moderator would they still be on ignore?

RightIdea
Offline 02-26-2003 10:45 PM This person is on your Ignore List. To view this post click [here]


Not being much of a computer operator I cant speak to the theoretical, only the real.

H

[David]

Preterists,

You definitely have a strange prophetic interpretation, but its heartening to know that some preterists believe in the future judgment and the resurrection, even though you don;t understand when it happens or what the timeline is.

So Yes, you can definitely be brethren, not a problem there, as you must realize you are definitely a peculiar breed with a very strange interpretation.

Ha, for even herein on the Millinium you say a Millinium doesn;t mean a Millinium . So how can we converse in exactness if yo7u change meanings so easily just because it doesn;t fit into your version of a non-exact timeline or any timeline whatsoever.

So for clarity sake let;s go over a thousand years and see the exact parallels so you no longer get confused about a 1000 meaning a 1000.

6,000 Prophetic years of Earth's History


Prophecy deals with time and to understand the future of time you have to understand the past and it's time and timeline. So prophetically speaking the Earth is only 6000 years old since the Creation of the Worlds and everything on them, in 'Six literal 24 hour days'. Adam was told to wait 5,500 years (remember he lived over 700 years), Esdras was told their was 12 divisions of time (of 500 years each), and the millenium is the 7th one thousand year period meaning up till this point there has been 6000 years of world history. And similarly the Lord said through his psalmist. 'A day is as a thousand years'.... meaning the six creative days are paralleled by six thousand years of His-story and then His thousand Year reign called the Millinium.
For then we are back to seven and that brings a completion of the week or seven days of creation.

Because as we should know the Lord created Heaven and Earth and there was no evolution (SEE Creation Board). And besides, there is absolutely no evidence of anything prehistoric. Nothing preceded the Lord’s recorded history. Genesis is the beginning and Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. Anything else is evolutionary dogma put out by the religious evolutionaries and their hoped for, dreamed up faith of unbelief. Yet their faith in evolution which is based on no facts whatsoever. No where in the geological record is there anything but the proof that there was a Flood and that the earth is 6,000 years old. All other dates are irrational and pretense.

Similarly archeology proves that civilization started quickly via a very intelligent and rational creation of God called man and woman. There were no cave men and women, only hunters and gathering men and women that sometimes used caves in their travels. Few lived long term in caves and none were neither Neanderthal nor ape-men, all such concoctions are forgeries, simple and straight forward.

The first man and woman from which all mankind came was Adam and Eve literally. They were real as science is now proving with the fact that all our DNA came from a single mating couple. Who…Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. A simplified version of their story was given to Moses and written down in Genesis. Straight forward and simple yet very precise in its order and it's clarity. If you need more information just read the Book of Adam or Enoch.

Secondly a day has always been the same as obviously the Earth's rotation hasn't changed since the Lord created it, and the plants wouldn't have survived millions and billions of years without a sun as indicated in Genesis. Because remember the Bible isn't allegorical but precise and all its mathematics are exact. For how else would you trust it. Yet if your faith isn't up to its standards, that doesn't make it wrong or people's lack of faith right nor a compromise with insane false science necessary.

Why…. because True Science and True History point to the fact that this old Earth ain't that old. This is why all those genealogies were given to be able for us to trace back our roots and even to the Creation of the World. (SEE Graph from Adam to Flood)

So by adding up all these lengths of time between generations in these genealogies, by going backwards in time, it appears that the World and worlds were created back in 4004 B.C. or thereabouts.

There were no millions and billions of years involved in the Earth’s History as the insane talk about but mere thousands of years. Those crazy light year distances and times no longer hold any meaning whatsoever because the speed of light can be surpassed in the Spirit as science has now found out (See Red light Shift.. or the Earth is the Center of the Universe)

There’s nothing prehistoric nor any prehistoric animals that weren’t part of the original creation (See Evolution is a Lie, or Dinosaurs and the Bible or Loch Ness hyperlinks). So there is no missing link in man’s ancestry nor any ‘missing link’ in the Earth’s History. It is all there for all to see and study, for if we seek, we shall find the truths of the Earth’s 6,000 Year History.

In my opinion according to the Lord and His scriptures

David Jay Jordan

Heavenly Mysteries
Earth Mysteries

undefined

(From http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/6000yearsofEarthshistory.html )

If you study math and numbers and scriptures together it makes things easier...

[efta777]

David,
You don't have a resonse to Dee Dee's defense of the 'thousand years' as being symbolic? You should answer that first before you go off on your next subject.

However, to address your last post, to my knowledge, this '6000 years of earth history' theory doesn't pan out because, while the length of a day hasn't changed over time, the human measurements of years have, therefore there is some amount of error embeded naturally in your comments.

Now, let me ask you a question:
Based off your theory of 6000 years of Earth history and your statement that the world began in 4004 BC, are you implying that the millenium will begin in 2004? Or at least thereabouts? I suppose a better question would be, when exactly do you believe, according to your 'exact' timeline, this age will come to an end and we will be ushered into a future millenial kingdom; and, if this does not occur when you say it will, will you just set another date?

[bar Jonah]

David, I am far from being a biblical expert, but I have searched my Bible for your references to Adam being told to wait 5,500 years, or anything about Esdras and these "divisions."

David, I INSIST. Please point out in the Bible where it says these things. :shifty:

[Woman]

Right Idea,

You have the patience of a saint! And my eternal respect!



:smile:

[David]

Yes, preterists it does take patience to respond hereon, when you say a thousand years doesn;t mean a thousand years as preterists have changed times.and the length of time.

But let's go over the basic once again, a solar year has Not changed one iota since the creation, and they were placed there by the Lord from the start in six literal days and not thru millions and billions of years of evolution. So again if preterists would study science more and math more and asbolutely know that the exact lineage of Adam thru to today is exactly and precisely written down in geneis thru each heneration then they could have more faith in the years of the Lord and our past to Creation in the Garden

SEE Creation Board and do study because evolution is a lie and creation helps you understand exact lineages and exact years.

http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/CreationversusEvolution.html

For you just have to start believeing scriptures, and genesis as Genesis is exact and not vague.

24 hours is a day and was a day since the beginning. the earth's rotation has not changed, that I know of, unless you have inside information to the contrary and can prove it.

http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Creationin24HourDays.html

And so now realize and check out the exact lineage from jesus to Adam, as taken exactly from genesis.

http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/LineageofJesus.html

And for the EXACT number of years between generations check out

http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/ForeFathersGraphic.html

Notice the EXACT number of years as stated exactly by the lord in scriptures ...can you change all these numbers and dates and lineages to suggest that a 1000 years is NOT a thousand years.

I think not...

Do study the exactness and preciseness of scriptures...genesis is true and exact...please don;t negate its truths as it doesn;t help your faith.

IMO

David

[bar Jonah]

Today @ 09:32 AM here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=42437#post42437)
David:

Yes, preterists it does take patience to respond hereon, when you say a thousand years doesn;t mean a thousand years as preterists have changed times.and the length of time.

IMO

David
Yes, definitely in your opinion, David, because what you're saying is NOT FACT. I'm not even a preterist and I say this.

We have already talked about the fact that the word here in the Greek in Revelation 20, the word translated as "thousand" in most translations... is PLURAL.

chilioi

You are putting your faith not in God's actual word but in a faulty English translation. This destroys your argument. Please prove that "chilioi" means only one thousand years... or get off the pot. (So to speak.)


Your friendly neighborhood semi-preterist, futurist pre-tribber -- RightIdea

[Reba]

Dave you said

"Yes, preterists it does take patience to respond hereon, when you say a thousand years doesn;t mean a thousand years as preterists have changed times.and the length of time."



NT:5507
chilioi (khil'-ee-oy); plural of uncertain affinity; a thousand:

KJV - thousand.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)


I had no idea Strongs was a preterest book thanks Dave i will read it with a different few. . .

[studyhound]

David-

I think your problem is a problem with defintions. Most preterist I know and myself included see preterism as dealing with the tribulation not the millenium. I know pre, post and a mill. preterists. So I think you need to deal with these groups.

Studyhound

[David]

Calvin,

In the real world is where jesus really helps us have discernment and ,ake the right choices thru his principles and thru his prophetic word. When you think all things except the Rapture are behind us, then you are identicial to the Pretrib Rapture people, who know nothing and seem to think nothing will happen to them because they will get raptured and need not witness and need not even study or learn.

If Preterists follow this same misconception, so be it .. that's their choice.

And if you think the Iraqui War is during the Lord's Millinium , where pray tell is it in scriptures. For the problem here lies in the fact that you won;t know what is happenning and why and when, and will be in the total dark.

That's your choice.

David

[Lizard]

Today @ 09:49 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=46909#post46909)
David:

And if you think the Iraqui War is during the Lord's Millinium , where pray tell is it in scriptures.
David

Its not in scripture.

Neither is WWI, WWII, the American Civil War, the War of the Roses, the hundred years war. Why would these things be in scripture?

If you believe the Iraqui War is in scripture, pleae provide a Scripture reference to support this point.

[David]

Well at least Far, you admit you have no scroptures or basis for understanding curerent events, and surely admit that jesus is not ruling here on Earth. That's a given and a no brainer.

Jesus is not ruling in America or iraq, and the Iragui War as mentioned many times is a precursor to the signing of the Daniel Covenant so that the world gets some peace so the Palestinians can have some sort of homeland, the jews a new temple and the AC can rise and we can get the Lord's Prophecy a movin asnd fulfilled according to His Plan

And now you know, so do read beyond Daniel 9 and then your understanding of Daniel 9 will TOTALLY CHANGE

Thanks

david

[bar Jonah]

Today @ 07:49 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=46909#post46909)
David:
Calvin,

In the real world is where jesus really helps us have discernment and ,ake the right choices thru his principles and thru his prophetic word. When you think all things except the Rapture are behind us, then you are identicial to the Pretrib Rapture people, who know nothing and seem to think nothing will happen to them because they will get raptured and need not witness and need not even study or learn.

David
This is utterly preposterous on its face. The pre-tribbers I know tend to be passionate about studying God's word AND witnessing to others. I am a pre-tribber and I work in a street evangelism and apologetics ministry that, internally, constantly debates theology, including issues most Christians don't even exist. And almost everyone in our ministry is a pre-tribber.

Why on earth would a pre-tribber have no motivation to witness to others? Have less motivation than a non-pre-tribber? Do you think we want people to suffer through the Tribulation?

As usual, you are guilty of absurd accusations that have no basis in reality.

[Lizard]

Today @ 10:12 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=46928#post46928)
David:

Well at least Far, you admit you have no scroptures or basis for understanding curerent events, and surely admit that jesus is not ruling here on Earth. That's a given and a no brainer.

Jesus is not ruling in America or iraq, and the Iragui War as mentioned many times is a precursor to the signing of the Daniel Covenant so that the world gets some peace so the Palestinians can have some sort of homeland, the jews a new temple and the AC can rise and we can get the Lord's Prophecy a movin asnd fulfilled according to His Plan

And now you know, so do read beyond Daniel 9 and then your understanding of Daniel 9 will TOTALLY CHANGE

Thanks

david

Well David at least you are consistant. You consistanlty misrepresent the preterist position, and you consitantly fail to produce a scripture reference when asked.

When did I ever say that Jesus is not ruleling on earth. I stated my response to your statement was intended to indicated that there is no scripture that the Iraqui war is not mentioned as part of the Millinium or anything else for that matter. That is a given and a no brainer.

When asked for a scripture reference to support your contintion that the Iraque war is in scripture you make some vague comment about it being a precursor to the signing of the Daniel covenant. But I have read Daniel several time, and I have no idea what you are talking about.

Since you seem to have such a hard time grasping this concept I will give you an example of how a typical person resopnsds to a request for scriptural support for a position. I will use portions of the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24 (not Daniel 9) used to support the preterist position.

First I will provide the scripture:

1 Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him.
2 And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."
3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

34 "Truly I say to you, (45) this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.


Then I will explain why the scripture supports my position, like so:

Here Jesus and his disciples have just left the temple. Jesus tells them that the temple will be destroyed. The temple they just left. The temple that was in fact destroyed in AD70. The disciples asked when would these things take place and Jesus answered "this Generation will not pass away until all these things take place". A biblical generation is considered to be about 40 years. Jesus spoke these words around AD 30, the temple, the one that Jesus and the disciples were talking about (not some future temple) was destroyed about 40 years later in AD70. Coincidence or the diven revelation of our Savior and Lord Jesus Christ?

That's how it works David. Can you do that for me? Can you provide a spicific scripture for me, and then show me how that scripture supports your position? So far all you have done is assert that your position is supported by the Bible. Since I have read the Bible several times, and I have come to conclusions radically different from yours, please understand if I do not readily accept that you are right and everyone else is wrong based solely on your assertions. Please provide a scripture reference and explain why it supports your position. Is that too much to ask?

Thanks
Faramir

[efta777]

Faramir: :cheers:
BUUUUUURN

[efta777]

David,

You have consistantly shown yourself to be a poor student of scripture, though you ironically are always talking about the importance of scripture. Please answer Faramir's rebuttle. I urge all Preterists to NOT RESPOND to David until he does this. I am quite frankly getting a little tired of his runaround answers that dodge the question, and I think he should be forced to finally answer some of these arguments that have been thrown his way.

[bar Jonah]

Yesterday @ 09:20 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=47513#post47513)
efta777:
David,

You have consistantly shown yourself to be a poor student of scripture, though you ironically are always talking about the importance of scripture. Please answer Faramir's rebuttle. I urge all Preterists to NOT RESPOND to David until he does this. I am quite frankly getting a little tired of his runaround answers that dodge the question, and I think he should be forced to finally answer some of these arguments that have been thrown his way.
And not only that, David, but post scripture to support your argument.

I also suggest that preterists (or anyone else for that matter) not respond to David until he does this, as well.

[David]

Actually I gave all the scrip[tures necessary to establish timelines in Daniel and revelation and no one could counter them with the exact mathematical concise that they show in the future tense.

And see mistranslations from only Daniel 9 as the only basis for preterism. Anything from the rest of scriptures, history or current events doesn't even come close to preterism past tense belief, they have no basis for thinking this is the Millinium ... and yet they go on believeing that Jesus is ruling and reigning here on Earth, despite the wars and famines and diseases, and poverty that they try not to see in the real world in the here and NOW.

But if TV, recent history, scriptures and even Jesus can;t get thru to them, who am I to try.

Oh well I did try ..


David

With over 100 postings on different aspects of different scrip[tures about the future, my proof is available for those searching if you aren't searching, that's your choice

[bar Jonah]

You backed up your case with scripture?

Did I blink? :eek:

[Rubens]

I am only viewing these posts to gain greater understanding on the preterist/ futurist issues, so I have no presuppositions. What I can say is that I cannot BELIEVE what I am seeing!

Calvinist:
Let me remind you of your intial post in this thread that got this all started. It is full of condescending sarcasm. That is how low an opinion you have of Preterists and your post was responded to in kind by yours truly. You really have nothing to complain about

...and other references to David's post being full of sarcasm.

Yes, it seemed David's original post included sarcasm, but why should he hide that he is a Futurist? There were still legitimate questions in the post which he wanted answers to, no? DDW moderated a request to tone down the sarcasm, to which David responded. But this alledged sarcasm seems sufficient justification for Calvinist to launch the most venomous name-calling and insults, to which, at this point, I see no moderation from DDW. Here's some of them:

Actually, in the "real world" people ussually have a clue about what it is they are talking about
...maybe you are a naval gazing moron without a clue of what you are talking about.
Pretending to be a student of the subject to which you just made a buffoon of yourself upon is more reason to laugh at you. Pathetic
your inane and sarcastic “question” loaded with know-it-all futurist opinion .
only trying to make sure that you are thoroughly exposed and thrashed for your “naval gazing” and “moronic” post from the first (nb: I see no insult here, but some pride in handing out a "thrashing)
Don’t like me now? Too bad. Try and think before you post. (nb: "don't like me now?" is not the issue, perhaps his feelings were hurt...that's too bad too I suppose?)
If I have “deflamed” you, maybe you should speak with a lawyer? That’s a serious charge, indeed. (once again... a fine thrashing)
what is shameful is a person who is not well equipped for a debate comes in a taking shots at something they obviously know nothing about AND THEN whines cause the “bad man” took them to task. You probably aren’t a moron, but you sure look like one to me. (the "bad man"... so Calvinist is the true victim here?)
I wouldn’t hold your breath waiting for those apologies. You got exactly what you asked for

Perhaps David does not have the expressive skills and vocab to conform to Calvinist's clearly high standard (NB: that was NOT SARCASM) so perhaps his posts or questions appear blunt, but they hardly deserve this barrage of power-tripping oneupmanship. To which, I repeat, I see no moderator call for calm.

Until RightIdea humbly requested a halt to the name calling, to which Calvinist responded
I had mentioned that he probably wasn't a moron earlier. Well. Such humility and grace.

Then RightIdea posts the most gracious and relevant truth on this thread so far, including (to Hitch)
But I am not so much concerned with individual posts and comments as I am with your overall attitude. You came to this board with the almost single-minded purpose of attacking your brothers and sisters in Christ.
It occurs to me that perhaps the reason some discussions here get so heated... is because people on both sides love God SO MUCH, that when they share their different views on God, that's precisely why it becomes so emotional and personal
So let's stand on that shared truth and go from there, Hitch. We are brothers. I'm going to see you in the heavenlies in the not-too-distant future. And we will have an infinite amount of time to discuss things and talk about what the truth REALLY is...
let's remember what we have in common -- God's grace, and a love for Him that transcends all theological issues. Surely we can discuss these issues here with a more edifying attitude...?
If we have truth but no love, the truth will be wasted because of the animosity that will exist between two brothers. Truth and love, Hitch. You're practicing the principle of truth... I hope you'll recognize you need to work on the other.

Sounds like something we all need to remember. Sadly, Hitch responded (or reacted) thus:
I have no intention or wish to talk with you at all. You have been on ignore since the first time you made up trash about what I had posted. And there you will stay
I have no intention to 'reason' with a tall tale fabracator such as your self. You have continued your harrasment of me and you have demonstrated your lack the anatomy to face up to your mistakes. You are by no means the type of person I care to be associated with. Is that clear enough?

This is ridiculous and shameful. I cannot believe that this is a debate between Christians.

Thank God our salvation is not dependent upon us understanding eschatology, and thank God our salvation is not dependent upon us showing grace to people who (we think) do not deserve it. Thank God Christ did exactly that for us, and we DEFINITELY do not deserve it!

[David]

Thank You Reuben, for showing how rude and disrespectful the posters have been on this thread and taking so much time to chronicle it.

Yes, I haven't got the time to waste time when they don't have the time to study the scriptures I have already posted so many times and places. I take time to construct web-site pages that can be used over and over again ...as mere debate with one person who many times isn;t looking for truths can be horribly wasteful of the Lord's time and my time.

And to the point do I chide the principle of preterism, of course I do...it makes zero sense in the real world or the spiritual world to me and any normal and natural person that takes five minutes to understand it, because that is the depth of it.

As for this brand new quirk of someone saying they are pre-trib preterist ... all I can do is shake my head ... as to where in the world they got that one from.... as they have now totally ommitted the Millinium and put it before the rapture.

Nevertheless if he is witnessing about the Love of jesus and Jesus's Grace no matter what his lack of understanding of prophecy is...all I can say is GOD BLESS HIM.

The Lord will tell him and all others with a good heart the future as they go along and as we go along...as the Lord has still much to teach us before His return.

Here's my two latest new postings for time is of the essense ...

http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/DiseasePlagues.html

and for those having trouble seeking and finding answers

http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/SeektoFind.html



Thanks Reuben

Blessings

David

[joelkaki]

David, I disagre totally with the insults that have been offered you. Name calling and the like are out as far as I am concerned.

However, you have failed to show any proof that your position is true. Simply giving us a link to a timeline with Scripture passages posted next to it proves nothing. You must exeget passages.

And since you say that "jesus is not ruling here on Earth. That's a given and a no brainer" then it should be fairly easy to back that up with Scripture. So take Faramir's challenge and refute his post.
If we all had the attitude you did--it's a no brainer your view isn't correct--we would get nowhere. Put yourself in our shoes for a second. So back up your position.

Joel

[Hitch]

And to the point do I chide the principle of preterism, of course I do...it makes zero sense in the real world or the spiritual world to me and any normal and natural person that takes five minutes to understand it, because that is the depth of it.



Hmmmm

Mean ol Hitch wonders whether Rueben will continue to extol the graces of Dave as he follows his usual backdoor approach to say that those who disagree with him have zero sense, are ab-normal and un-natural.

But in such a nice way,,,,

Hitch

[David]

Joel,

It is almost totally ludicrous to think jesus is regning here on Earth, you people must get into the real world and away from your one demensional thinking. In the real world there is horrendous suffering and famines and plaques, and economic oppression of the poor, and disease, and horrible wars by the war mongers, and through it all the church remains hypocritical and devoid of helping the majoprity of people because it doesn;t have the Love of the Lord nor His wisdom. And yet some of his people are doing their best despite the imaginations of some that they are in heaven and heaven has come down to Earth.

Joel, wake up bro, if you can;t see that Jesus is NOT reigning on Earth and you want me to prove that to you, you are beyond help and are totally gone mentally and therefore most likely spiritually as well.

You have adopted a doctrine you just can't let go of, no matter what happens here on Earth, which is so sad.

So very sad, and yet you want proof that you are naive.

You have to prove that for yourself to break out of your illusions by yourself, even Jesus can't unilaterally break you free.You have to want it, by being honest !! Straight forward and simple ..

SEE Prove it
http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Proveit.html

To the people who keep saying, Prove it, prove it or we ain't going to believe it.. Forget it. Prove it to yourselves and find out for yourselves and do the homework and study yourselves. Nobody else can do prove things to you but YOU !!.

Besides most people that say prove it, prove it, over and over again .... disregard the proofs they have already been given and are closed minded and don't want proofs and truths because their minds are already made up. It's usually just their way of trying to confuse the issue like the jewish trick of saying why, why, why ....until finnally only God knows why. (And they don't have the nerve or guts to ask Him why) . And therefore thesebablers think they can win an argument by saying Why, why, why, or prove it, prove it, prove it when sufficient proofs already are there.

It's as shallow and as delorable a tactic as ever imagined. For nobody can prove it except the individual themselves. It is their responsibility, and not the posters or the debaters. because real life is not a word twisting contest but a reality we have to get right. Who wins an argument is NOT who wins in life.

Get it together whimps and answer your own questions which is why Jesus kept reversing their stupid accusing questions back at them. As He only answered questions of the scribes and pharisee's when it was a benefit of the true seekers who were listening nearby and recording his words in their memories.

Jesus wanted and wants sincere questions because He wants to teach us. As we are suppose to ask questions in order to seek and find as Jesus said so many times. For he expects us to use the God-given brains He gave us in finding out the Mystery of Life.

But that in no way excuses those that ask questions without wanting answers. I mean, even Abraham, the Father of Faith, told a dead soul in hell that wanted to go back and tell his relatives what the other side was really like so they would have proof of the After-life and understand it via this miracle of his returning ...NO, No WAY. Absolutely Not, They have Moses and the prophets let them hear them, for if they believe not them neither shall they believe though one came back from the dead. (Luke 16)

For people in this lifetime who asked Jesus real questions with a sincere heart, the Lord always answered them just as we are compelled to, as well. (1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:)

Why with meekness and fear, because we should realize that we are judged by our words, and whether we have studied and whether we can answer questions about life to others and direct them to the Answer Giver ...Jesus. And we are responsible if we say nothing and don't speak up as well. For by our words we are excused or condemned.

Mathew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words (or lack of them) thou shalt be condemned. Mat 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. (Prove it, Prove it, Prove it !!)

Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: (And that sign was the sign of JESUS' birth and life and death. That's the only sign they need to find the truth)

So we have no liability or responsibility to answer questions of prove it prove it prove it to those that don't want proofs. Let them find out life for themselves and get respect for others themselves. WE all responsible for our own actions and thoughts via our choices, so we each have to 'examine ourselves', and be honest with ourselves, for we shall meet our Maker, and He knows the thoughts and intents of our hearts, and knows we have all had the opportunity to find out His Answers.

And if they don't want to seek and find out .... Tough

That's their choice and their responsibility.

In His Service

David

PS) So if any true seekers and sheep want to prove whether Jesus is real or not, and they have a sincere heart, it is proveable. All they have to do is ask Jesus to prove himself to them in prayer. If they do, He will give them the proof and the faith they need. Therefore if interesting in finding out. Do it and prove it for yourselves !! (Rim)
(SEE Salvation)

[Lizard]

David I feel we are at an impasse. In order to understand your position I need for you to present it in the following matter:

03-28-2003 @ 12:01 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=47024#post47024)
Faramir:

First I will provide the scripture:



Matthew 24:

1 Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him.
2 And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."
3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

34 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.



Then I will explain why the scripture supports my position, like so:

Here Jesus and his disciples have just left the temple. Jesus tells them that the temple will be destroyed. The temple they just left. The temple that was in fact destroyed in AD70. The disciples asked when would these things take place and Jesus answered "this Generation will not pass away until all these things take place". A biblical generation is considered to be about 40 years. Jesus spoke these words around AD 30, the temple, the one that Jesus and the disciples were talking about (not some future temple) was destroyed about 40 years later in AD70. Coincidence or the divine revelation of our Savior and Lord Jesus Christ?

If you want to have any hope of me even understanding your position, this is the method you need to use.

If you will not or can not do this, then just let me say that it has been very interesting, if not illuminating discussing eschatology with you.

[joelkaki]

Joel,

It is almost totally ludicrous to think jesus is regning here on Earth, you people must get into the real world and away from your one demensional thinking. In the real world there is horrendous suffering and famines and plaques, and economic oppression of the poor, and disease, and horrible wars by the war mongers, and through it all the church remains hypocritical and devoid of helping the majoprity of people because it doesn;t have the Love of the Lord nor His wisdom. And yet some of his people are doing their best despite the imaginations of some that they are in heaven and heaven has come down to Earth.

Would you not agree, though, that if Scripture teaches that Jesus is reigning now, then all those objections come to nothing?
And whoever said anyways that Christ's reign means that none of those things will be present. You have presuppositions as to what the millennial kingdom will be like, and thus you cannot accept preterism on those unproven presuppositions.


Joel, wake up bro, if you can;t see that Jesus is NOT reigning on Earth and you want me to prove that to you, you are beyond help and are totally gone mentally and therefore most likely spiritually as well.

Hmm, have others noticed signs of mental deficiency in me? Some of my friends say I'm a little strange at times, but mentally deficient? Hey, David, here's what I challenge you to do. Since I am so obviously mentally gone and most likely spiritually gone too, then how about this:

I challenge you to debate the issues of the Rapture, Great Tribulation, and the Millennium, or take just one, in the Boxing Ring.

Seeing as how you later call me (and other preterists) wimps, let's see how you take this. And since I am mentally deficient, then this ought to be a no-brainer debate for you. And since my view is just stupid, so obviously wrong, then merely pointing that out in a debate ought to be the easiest thing in the world. Let's see if you are willing to stand up for your views.


You have adopted a doctrine you just can't let go of, no matter what happens here on Earth, which is so sad.

Funny, I could say the same of you. And I could let go of it, should I be proven wrong from Scripture. But all you have done is use the newspaper, which isn't our final source.


So very sad, and yet you want proof that you are naive.

That ought to be easy for you to prove in the Boxing Ring. Put your money where your mouth is.


You have to prove that for yourself to break out of your illusions by yourself, even Jesus can't unilaterally break you free.You have to want it, by being honest !! Straight forward and simple ..

SEE Prove it
http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Proveit.html

To the people who keep saying, Prove it, prove it or we ain't going to believe it.. Forget it. Prove it to yourselves and find out for yourselves and do the homework and study yourselves. Nobody else can do prove things to you but YOU !!.

Now there's the attitude of someone who wants to proclaim the truth and help people "see the light." We've already done homework, and we hope that so have you, and I think now you need to come and meet me in the Boxing Ring.


Besides most people that say prove it, prove it, over and over again .... disregard the proofs they have already been given and are closed minded and don't want proofs and truths because their minds are already made up.

What proofs? Faramir has asked you a number of times to just present a passage or two and exegete it, which you have failed to do! You haven't given any proofs or proven anything. Here is the sum total of your supposed "proofs":
Of course we are not in the Millennium now--look around at the world.
From where I come from, assertion is not proof. It proves nothing logically.


It's usually just their way of trying to confuse the issue like the jewish trick of saying why, why, why ....until finnally only God knows why. (And they don't have the nerve or guts to ask Him why) . And therefore thesebablers think they can win an argument by saying Why, why, why, or prove it, prove it, prove it when sufficient proofs already are there.

Yah, the ones who present Scripture are the ones confusing the issue. You have failed to present any real proof, and thus you muddle the whole thing.


It's as shallow and as delorable a tactic as ever imagined. For nobody can prove it except the individual themselves. It is their responsibility, and not the posters or the debaters. because real life is not a word twisting contest but a reality we have to get right. Who wins an argument is NOT who wins in life.

We aren't talking about just winning an argument. Goodness, with you, there is not even an argument to win--all you say is that we're stupid. All we want to do is have a reasonable discussion with you on our views. And since you have been so incredibly stubborn and ridiculous about this, I challenge you to debate me in the Boxing Ring.


Get it together whimps and answer your own questions which is why Jesus kept reversing their stupid accusing questions back at them. As He only answered questions of the scribes and pharisee's when it was a benefit of the true seekers who were listening nearby and recording his words in their memories.

There is the true, heart-warming attitude of a servant of Christ to fellow brothers. "Get it together wimps"--We ain't wimps, we're the ones who have presented Scripture. "..answer your own questions" Oh, so asking for someone to exlplain something is now a crime as well. Give some proof.


Jesus wanted and wants sincere questions because He wants to teach us. As we are suppose to ask questions in order to seek and find as Jesus said so many times. For he expects us to use the God-given brains He gave us in finding out the Mystery of Life.

And that is what we are trying to do, but you stubbornly refuse to discuss with us, preferring to call us stupid and wimps.


But that in no way excuses those that ask questions without wanting answers. I mean, even Abraham, the Father of Faith, told a dead soul in hell that wanted to go back and tell his relatives what the other side was really like so they would have proof of the After-life and understand it via this miracle of his returning ...NO, No WAY. Absolutely Not, They have Moses and the prophets let them hear them, for if they believe not them neither shall they believe though one came back from the dead. (Luke 16)

For people in this lifetime who asked Jesus real questions with a sincere heart, the Lord always answered them just as we are compelled to, as well. (1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:)

So you think you have fulfilled that verse? Given a reason? Other than that we are stupid and wimps? I don't think so. Why don't you apply that verse.


Why with meekness and fear, because we should realize that we are judged by our words, and whether we have studied and whether we can answer questions about life to others and direct them to the Answer Giver ...Jesus. And we are responsible if we say nothing and don't speak up as well. For by our words we are excused or condemned.

And you think we have answered questions? What about Faramir's repeated question for Biblical proof?


Mathew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words (or lack of them) thou shalt be condemned. Mat 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. (Prove it, Prove it, Prove it !!)

I consider calling people stupid and wimps rather than providing Biblical evidence to be idle words.


Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: (And that sign was the sign of JESUS' birth and life and death. That's the only sign they need to find the truth)

So we have no liability or responsibility to answer questions of prove it prove it prove it to those that don't want proofs. Let them find out life for themselves and get respect for others themselves. WE all responsible for our own actions and thoughts via our choices, so we each have to 'examine ourselves', and be honest with ourselves, for we shall meet our Maker, and He knows the thoughts and intents of our hearts, and knows we have all had the opportunity to find out His Answers.

And if they don't want to seek and find out .... Tough

You are pretty contradictory. First you need to give answers, secondly, they need to get their own answers. How about backing up your view?


That's their choice and their responsibility.

In His Service

In his service? By calling us stupid?

I do not often express myself this strongly, but I am fed up with your stubbornness and ridiculousness(???)


Joel

[efta777]

Shoot! I wanted to challenge David to a duel. Oh well, I suppose if he goes for it I can just cheer you on, Joel.

David,
I went to your "Prove it" artical with hopes that you would give me specific issues to prove. If you had said, "Prove that we are in the Millenium now" I could have done it. If you had said, "Prove that the great trib is past" I could have done it. However, you just called us wimps and told us we couldn't. You refuse to give us a chance to prove, and the only reason I consider that you do this is because you're scared. Is there another reason? If so tell me. We have the scripture to back up our beliefs, you have your own math and logic, which do you trust?

[joelkaki]

If he even accepts, and is alright with the switch, you can take it instead of me...I'm doing another debate already, plus offering another one.

Joel

[David]

Guys and Gals,

No offense, but you are so mixed up that no amount of scriptures or current events or hstory truths will ever straightne you out, and so it was meant to be....because it takes Grace to see it and understand for some just won;t be able to see it because of their mis alignments.

And so it was meant to be .....

Preterists if you want to believe that you are in heaven and jesus is reigning right now and the trib is past, and nothing will influence your glass world so be it.

I back up your right to believe and choose whatever doctrine you choose and want or make up.

It's not my choice and it definitely doesn;t corelate to the real world, but the choice remains yours.

I am a realist ... and surely the Lord wants us to be as well.

David

[Evangel]

you didnt come in the mindset to debate theology and you didnt have an open mind. i would have liked to see other members rise above you but that did not always happen.

btw im new to this well and if i find something worth reading ill point you in its direction. hopefully im going to the bookstore to buy one of the books kindly recommended to me.

besides im pretty sure futurism wouldnt fit in with God intended when Jesus died on the cross it was our final chance for salvation. i think that God wanted us to come to him, not him to come to us. ill admit futurism sounds cool but the more i learn and pray. the less futurism fits what Revalations has to say.

[David]

If past tense book comfort your soul and help you believe nothing will shatter your world and if the whole university is recommending them to you for your encouragement so that you won;t get upset with the world and what's really happenning.... Evangel, so be it ... that's your CHOICE but when things get worse, and that dogma doesn;t fit in with reality and you want answers, do consider having an open mind and heart to real prophecy and the real future. ...for then you will have the possibility of putting real oil in your unlighted Lamp.

But the choices remain your own, but hopefully you are at least evangelizing about the Grace of the Lord even though He isn;t ruling and reigning on earth right now. For if you tell normal rational people that jesus is ruling on Earth, your witness is over totally and they will surely laugh at you and you won;t be able to win them to the Lord via His Words.

You have to be real, Evangel ..but the choice is yours

Love in jesus

David

http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan//Jesus.html

[joelkaki]

But the choices remain your own, but hopefully you are at least evangelizing about the Grace of the Lord even though He isn;t ruling and reigning on earth right now. For if you tell normal rational people that jesus is ruling on Earth, your witness is over totally and they will surely laugh at you and you won;t be able to win them to the Lord via His Words.


These words sadden me. God is powerful. He can certainly save people who are told Jesus is ruling on Earth. The Holy Spirit is powerful. You give all the power to man, when it should really be given to the one who created man.

Joel

[Evangel]

i havent made my decision as to what doctrine is right but i recently purchased LaHayes new book and hes got me back to futurism. or at least i see the flaws in preterism.

[joelkaki]

Evangel, if you are wanting to study this issue, a book you might really want to read is End Times Fiction by Gary DeMar. He deals with the theological framework of the Left Behind series.


Joel

[joelkaki]

I am a realist ... and surely the Lord wants us to be as well.




I think he wants us truly to be disciples of his word. All of us are trying to be doing that, and when we present his word, you say we're so messed up that no amount of Scripture could make us right.

Joel