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Jedidiah
03-08-2014, 04:37 PM
This is a thread limited to Mikiel and Jedidiah (me).

Mikiel,

I will be leaving in a couple days so this is perhaps not the best time to start, but I will anyhow.

I have been a Christian for about 40 years. I am now 72. I have been in more than one church body but have never seen even a hint that any Christians want, or would be happy to see, anyone go to hell. This is the reason that there is such an effort to spread the Gospel. I have family members who are likely to end up in hell. Can you imagine me being pleased about that. I am not.

There is not much reason to argue about what the Bible says since I take the whole of it to be true and accurate. If you do not there is no ground for us to discuss that.

I would like to see why you seem to think that Christians are happy to see people going to hell.

Mickiel
03-08-2014, 05:03 PM
This is a thread limited to Mikiel and Jedidiah (me).

Mikiel,

I will be leaving in a couple days so this is perhaps not the best time to start, but I will anyhow.

I have been a Christian for about 40 years. I am now 72. I have been in more than one church body but have never seen even a hint that any Christians want, or would be happy to see, anyone go to hell. This is the reason that there is such an effort to spread the Gospel. I have family members who are likely to end up in hell. Can you imagine me being pleased about that. I am not.

There is not much reason to argue about what the Bible says since I take the whole of it to be true and accurate. If you do not there is no ground for us to discuss that.

I would like to see why you seem to think that Christians are happy to see people going to hell.



I think some Christians, certainly not all, are happy for others to go to hell. People like Hitler, murderers, rapist and Child molesters; I think yes, they most definitely would be happy to see them go to the Christian hell. Because they think they deserve it. Christians have implanted hell into the psyche of the world, because it was implanted into their consciousness. You can just hear people in general when they get mad at someone, the first thing out of their mouths, is " Go to hell." Phrases like " This place has gone to hell in a hand basket", or " Whats better, Texas or Hell." Its just common; its mainstream thinking, and when something becomes mainstream, its roots go deep and the human emotion becomes involved. One of those emotions is " Joy"; I think some Christians get emotional over hell. Fear, anxiety, caution; its all mixed up into this frightful place of punishing. I think its like asking, " Are there people who would be happy to see people electricuted for their crimes?" Of course there are. Barbaric things always trigger emotions.

Mickiel
03-08-2014, 05:10 PM
Its like asking do Christians hate? Do they sin? Do they committ fornication? Of course they do, and any Christian who denys this is just living on fantasy island. Do some of them actually want and desire people to go to hell, of course they do. Because they think God WANTS it. I think many Christians would like to actually SEE IT! They want to watch it happen. I personally believe that Christians " Agree with hell", and when you agree with something like that, wanting and desiring it is just around the corner. I disagree with hell. Totally disagree with it. And there is nothing that I personally know about God that I disagree with.

But this eternal hell doctrine stinks, it smells nothing like God. It looks nothing like God, and makes NO Godly sense to me.

Mickiel
03-08-2014, 05:22 PM
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I've noticed a lot of Christians almost getting off telling people there going to hell, why?

there's been some people on this planet that problely deserve going to such a place for the horrible things they've done to humans. but for the most part sending over half of the human population to hell just because they don't believe something has always seemed retarded to me and I've said many times here its like using a cannon for a flyswatter.




Gareth
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The Bible does not teach that dead people continue to live and suffer horrible torment for ever and ever.

Solomon, who was inspired of God to write this, was the wisest man who ever lived.

*** Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead don’t know anything, neither do they have any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

There is some symbolic language used in prophecies and parables that some use to contradict this clear statement of truth. But that is because the real meaning of the prophecy or parable has not been well understood.


Gareth

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Jul 17, 2008 If we examing the rules layed down for life:

God said:

*** Gen 3:3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said,‘You shall not eat of it, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’”

Satan said:

*** Gen 3:4 The serpent said to the woman,“You won’t surely die,

So, God said that when we sin, we die. Satan said that when we sin, we will not really die.

I recomment you believe God and not Satan. When we die we are dead, just like Solomon said. We do not continue to live in some fiery realm. Quote




Notice the first comment by this fella, he said that he noticed that certain Christians seemed to " Get Off" by telling people their going to hell. Its a mindset or an attitude that not only I have noticed.

Mickiel
03-08-2014, 05:57 PM
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I've noticed a lot of Christians almost getting off telling people there going to hell, why?

there's been some people on this planet that problely deserve going to such a place for the horrible things they've done to humans. but for the most part sending over half of the human population to hell just because they don't believe something has always seemed retarded to me and I've said many times here its like using a cannon for a flyswatter.

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I don't know this person who posted this on another site, but it caught my eye. Christians actually acting like their " Getting off" on telling people they are going to hell. Getting emotional or getting some pleasure out of it. Some Christians use hell like " A Power Play", they think its some kind of power to the threat. They think hell has an appeal to it that gives the Christian some kind of leverage.

Mickiel
03-08-2014, 07:08 PM
Also Christians " Getting off" on telling people they are going to hell can be a power trip; as if they hold the power of pronouncing such a thing. Getting some kind of weird thrill out of it. I can't count the number of Christians here who keep telling me they hope I change " Before its too late." Like their threatening you or intimidating you with this " Doomsday witnessing."

Jedidiah
03-08-2014, 10:19 PM
Jedidiah and Mikiel only please.

Jedidiah
03-08-2014, 10:43 PM
People like Hitler, murderers, rapist and Child molesters; I think yes, they most definitely would be happy to see them go to the Christian hell. Because they think they deserve it. If any of these folks repent and turn to God, I have no objection to them being in heaven. The entry is up to Christ not up to me, or to any other Christian. Are there those who would feel that way, probably. My experience is that believers desire to see everyone saved. I have heard prayer requests for really atrocious people - desires for them to repent and be saved.


But this eternal hell doctrine stinks, it smells nothing like God. It looks nothing like God, and makes NO Godly sense to me.

2 Corinthians 2:14-16 But thanks be to God, who in Christ always leads us in triumphal procession, and through us spreads the fragrance of the knowledge of him everywhere. 15 For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing, 16 to one a fragrance from death to death, to the other a fragrance from life to life.

If it is God's plan, I agree with it. He has perfect judgement.

There is too much stuff for me to respond to it. Can you give me one thing at a time. And I know you do not believe in Hell but I am looking more for examples of Christians who want to see people in Hell. Keep in mind that we have both wheat and tares in the field. They will be separated by Christ. Not by me. Just statements that many Christians feel like that is not of interest. Why do you think this is so when my experience is so much the opposite?

Mickiel
03-09-2014, 11:21 AM
If any of these folks repent and turn to God, I have no objection to them being in heaven. The entry is up to Christ not up to me, or to any other Christian. Are there those who would feel that way, probably. My experience is that believers desire to see everyone saved. I have heard prayer requests for really atrocious people - desires for them to repent and be saved.



2 Corinthians 2:14-16 But thanks be to God, who in Christ always leads us in triumphal procession, and through us spreads the fragrance of the knowledge of him everywhere. 15 For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing, 16 to one a fragrance from death to death, to the other a fragrance from life to life.

If it is God's plan, I agree with it. He has perfect judgement.

There is too much stuff for me to respond to it. Can you give me one thing at a time. And I know you do not believe in Hell but I am looking more for examples of Christians who want to see people in Hell. Keep in mind that we have both wheat and tares in the field. They will be separated by Christ. Not by me. Just statements that many Christians feel like that is not of interest. Why do you think this is so when my experience is so much the opposite?



It is strange that you have never seen this desire for people to go to hell in your Christian experience. Let me put it in another way; I agree with everything I know about God, and I want what God wants; there is nothing that I know about something God is doing, that I don't want him to do. Now if you believe in hell, then are you suggesting that it is something God is going to do that you don't agree with or want him to do?

Jedidiah
03-09-2014, 05:19 PM
It is strange that you have never seen this desire for people to go to hell in your Christian experience. Let me put it in another way; I agree with everything I know about God, and I want what God wants; there is nothing that I know about something God is doing, that I don't want him to do.I have read the papers and news online and have seen some pretty horrible stuff from folks who claim to be Christians. Rather than question their theology, I question their salvation.

Now if you believe in hell, then are you suggesting that it is something God is going to do that you don't agree with or want him to do?I do believe in hell. I have no idea what hell is going to be like, but if I understand correctly it will be simply God allowing them to have what they ask for, eternity without Him. Once there, what ever conditions may exist it will not be pleasant. Do I want anyone to go there? No. But more than what I want I trust God to do the right thing. Therefore hell must be an appropriate and correct thing if it is God doing as He sees best.

This is much like what I see in Romans chapter 1:

v 24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,
Romans

v 26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature;

v 28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.
Romans

I simply trust Him to do what is best.

Jedidiah
03-09-2014, 05:21 PM
I should add that Christians have done and continue to do evil things. If they are truly children of God, He will chastise them and bring them around.

Raphael
03-09-2014, 05:41 PM
Moved to the Arena
This conversation of for Jed and Mickiel's participation only

Mickiel
03-09-2014, 06:03 PM
I simply trust Him to do what is best.[/QUOTE]

So you think its best for God to put unbelievers away for eternity? Do you also consider that merciful? Do you view hell as Loving and gracious of God?

Also I am curious, since we are talking about God, can you show me in scripture where God claims to have created hell? And I don't mean the grave, but this Christian hell; where in the bible does it prove God thinks its best to do this?

Can I ask you why you think God would co-exist with such a place in eternity?

Jedidiah
03-09-2014, 09:40 PM
So you think its best for God to put unbelievers away for eternity? Do you also consider that merciful? Do you view hell as Loving and gracious of God?I think that it is not my place to make that judgement. I don't even know what hell is.


Also I am curious, since we are talking about God, can you show me in scripture where God claims to have created hell? And I don't mean the grave, but this Christian hell; where in the bible does it prove God thinks its best to do this?As I said above I don't even know what hell is. What Christians see as hell has been described as a place of eternal fire, and as an outer darkness. I can only speculate.

This is not what I think hell is, but . . . Let me speculate that those who chose to reject Christ might be simply separated from those who accepted Him. What if these sinners are in a place with no pain and no suffering (as we might ordinarily thinks of suffering), but they are prevented from dominating others, or controlling them in any way. Would that be hell. Or they might simply be separated and left entirely to their own devices. What would "life" be like in such a place? The point is I do not know.


Can I ask you why you think God would co-exist with such a place in eternity?Because, as I see it, He has said so.

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

If I was in charge there would be no hell. Well maybe like my first speculation. But I am not in charge, and I am not competent to judge the Almighty God.

Mickiel
03-10-2014, 07:40 AM
John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.Quote


May I ask just what the condemnation is? Because your implying that it is that eternal hell, and Jesus did not say that. Verse 19, in the very next verse Jesus tells us WHAT the condemnation is, " And THIS IS the condemnation, that light has come into the world and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." That, in respect to you, does NOT mean the Christian hell, it merely means " Spiritual Blindness." The condemnation is spiritual blindness in this age, not the age to come. Your seeing hell where there is none. Because you have been trained to do that by your religion.


Quote
If I was in charge there would be no hell. Well maybe like my first speculation. But I am not in charge, and I am not competent to judge the Almighty God.

Common sense ought to tell you that if your merciful enough not to have a hell, that surely God is. You need to rethink your belief.

Jedidiah
03-10-2014, 09:23 AM
Common sense ought to tell you that if your merciful enough not to have a hell, that surely God is. You need to rethink your belief.

I choose to trust what He has told me, and to trust that He has a better understanding than I do. A number of things God did in the Bible I would not have done, but I recognize that He knows way better than I do.

Mickiel
03-10-2014, 09:26 AM
I choose to trust what He has told me, and to trust that He has a better understanding than I do. A number of things God did in the Bible I would not have done, but I recognize that He knows way better than I do.

Can you show me in the bible where God created the Christian version of hell? Or anywhere that God claims to have anything whatsoever to do with it? And if you cannot show me that, explain to me why you then believe in it?

Jedidiah
03-10-2014, 04:45 PM
There are countless verses that point to or mention eternal punishment. While it is needful to ignore all those to make a few verses seem to deny what is explicitly spelled out.

To answer your question specifically - there is no mention of the creation or making of hell. I believe it because of the multitude of mentions of eternal separation from God, and a paucity of suggestions that all will be equally saved (none that I know of.) There is no where a single clear statement that all men will end up in heaven. The few you have mentioned appear to be misinterpretations on your part.

Mickiel
03-10-2014, 05:47 PM
Edited by a Moderator

Jedidiah
03-10-2014, 08:29 PM
Many posts have been made to support the idea. Lots of verses have been cited. True there is not single place that says if you do not accept Jesus Christ you will go to eternal punishment in hell. There is also no clear verse that says that in the end everyone will go to heaven. Studying the whole of the Bible I find that I can not reject the concept. You reject it based on what seems to me to be rather esoteric understanding of some verses pulled out of context.

If we are just going to continue to argue about is there or is there not eternal separation from God, I am not interested. I thought we were going to discuss Christianity in America Today - do Christians want people to go to hell or not. I agreed there may well be, nay are, some nominal Christians (I would call tares) who take that tack. The most do not in my experience.

Mickiel
03-11-2014, 07:40 AM
Many posts have been made to support the idea. Lots of verses have been cited. True there is not single place that says if you do not accept Jesus Christ you will go to eternal punishment in hell. There is also no clear verse that says that in the end everyone will go to heaven. Studying the whole of the Bible I find that I can not reject the concept. You reject it based on what seems to me to be rather esoteric understanding of some verses pulled out of context.

If we are just going to continue to argue about is there or is there not eternal separation from God, I am not interested. I thought we were going to discuss Christianity in America Today - do Christians want people to go to hell or not. I agreed there may well be, nay are, some nominal Christians (I would call tares) who take that tack. The most do not in my experience.



If you hold no interest, then go in peace. I am not interested in limiting the discussion.