"Yahweh says "utterly destroy" them."

[InquisitorKind]

The following was posted at:

CARM's Theology discussion board. (http://new.carmforums.org/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=122&topic_id=4959)


I Samuel 15:3, Samuel relates the following instructions from Yahweh:

"Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey".

Some have suggested that God ordered this slaughter out of love for his people, as the Amalekites were Israel's true enemies.

However, according to the New Oxford Annotated Bible, the phrase utterly destroy means to "destroy as a type of religious sacrifice". This would imply that the destruction of Amalek has little to do with love for Israel, and more to do with Yahweh's personal satisfaction.

In light of this commentary, what is I Samuel 15:3 really saying about the nature of God?

I did not think that this was seriously discussed over at CARM (things could've changed since this post), but what does this say about the nature of God? And how can it be reconciled with Jesus' loving nature?

~Matt

[GrayPilgrim]

According to HALOT (the scholarly standard Biblcial Hebrew Lexicon) xrm means:


—1. to put under a ban, to devote to destruction, esp. war-booty: cities Nu 21:2f, with all that is in them Jos 6:21, all inhabitants Jos 8:26, all male Ju 21:11, the cattle Dt 13:16; Dt 2:34 3:6 7:2 20:17 Jos 2:10 6:18 10:1.28.35.37.39f 11:11f.20f Ju 1:17 1S 15:3.8f.15.18.20 30:17 1K 9:21 2K 19:11 Is 37:11 Jr 50:21.26 51:3; to destroy Da 11:44 1C 4:41 2C 20:23 32:14; bans Is 34:2 Jr 25:9;

—2. to dedicate something to Yahweh by the ban and thus rule out redemption Lv 27:28 Mi 4:13, cf. Dt 13:17:


Here are my initial thoughts on the subject:

It appears that it is a category confusion to see the xrm in the hifil in reference to battles as the second defintion. Xrm is word to offer as sacrifice but it is not the only meaning of the word.

That being said, I see it more as God's wrath against the ungodly who attacked His People and thus an attack against Him, than a show of His love, though the two are not completely insepperable. So I see the effect is to protect His glory, for He is jealous to protect His glory and will execute judgment against those who attempt to impugn it.

[Jaltus]

And how can it be reconciled with Jesus' loving nature?

Matthew 10:34 Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.


Jesus said that. He also mentions hell more times than anyone else in scripture. He may be loving, but He is not exclusively loving. He is still God, He is still jealous, just as the Father is.

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

This thread is now a zombie. Utterly destroy THAT!

[technomage]

This thread is now a zombie. Utterly destroy THAT!
Foul necromanced thread! Evil scion of the decrept archives! Go back to the digital abyss from whence thou came!

And if that doesn't work, we can always start cracking bad jokes. :hehe:

[Straylight]

Just to answer the question though...

The Amalekites were the first people to attack Israel after they were liberated from Egypt, and the nation that displayed the most hatred for them. When others hesitated or didn't know what to make of the Israelites, Amalek sought to conspire against them (and get others to do so as well). A thorn in the Israelites side from the very beginning, they ended up becoming a kind of arch enemy -- As well as an archetype for arch enemies.

Hatred for Amalek was even codified in the Torah :

Commandment 613 -- Destroy the seed of Amalek (Deut. 25:19).

[lee_merrill]

I have a page on my web site on this topic, the result of quite prolonged discussions! I was really hoping there would not be another very prolonged discussion on this again, starting up, and it seems there is not.

The main point I would make in reply is to ask if God has the prerogative to determine the time and the manner of a person's death, and whether death is the ultimate evil, these questions seem to be at the heart of the matter...

Blessings,
Lee

[sylvius]

The following was posted at:

CARM's Theology discussion board. (http://new.carmforums.org/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=122&topic_id=4959)



I did not think that this was seriously discussed over at CARM (things could've changed since this post), but what does this say about the nature of God? And how can it be reconciled with Jesus' loving nature?

~Matt

Shaul spared Agag, king of Amalek, that's why he lost his kingship.
The next day Agag as yet was killed by Samuel.
In the intermediate night Agag slept with his wife and fathered a child that became ancestor of Haman from the story of Esther, Haman the first with an 'Endlösung der Judenfrage' in mind.

This story might have its echo in the name Saul(os) of NT.

Shaul spared Agag out of pity, out of weakness,
Agag begging for his life.

I wrote before already (www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=8847):

It makes me think of 'the gospel of enemy-love', the author of which, Leendert Overduin, rescued during WOII more than one thousand Dutch Jews from the claws of the Nazi's.

Right after the German invasion of the Netherlands in May 1940 he began to preach his 'gospel of enemy-love':

My translation (sorry for poor English):


"From which ever the world does die, she lives from the Crucified, i.e. she lives from the gospel of enemy-love. She lives from Him who did pray for his enemies.

Love your enemies, for God doesn't allow the the world to die from her own evil. He doesn't want that you as children of her enmity will perish, but as children of His enemy-love will be saved.

This word of Jesus is not a feeble word, and also not a characterless word. There is enough of characterlessness, enough also in these days amongst our people. To love the enemy never means be in league with him. To love the enemy always means saying no, and keep on saying no against his business."

[MegaHertz]

but what does this say about the nature of God? And how can it be reconciled with Jesus' loving nature?

Although the events that led up to this may have different circumstances to other events similar in nature it can be summed up, God spoke and people died.

At the moment of death, God treats everybody the same, the body returns to the earth (from where it came from) and the breath of life returns to God (from where it came from);

Ec:12:7:
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:
and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Their ultimate fate is not decided untill the kingdoms of the earth again belong to God, this entails a judgement of all of man. The first to be judged obtain life, Israel being the first to recieve this as a reward when all members are restored to life.
The rest of the dead are then judged and either live, remain in death, or are concious but in hell. The ones granted life include these seperate groups;

Re:20:4:
And I saw thrones,
and they sat upon them,
and judgment was given unto them:
and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus,
and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast,
neither his image,
neither had received his mark upon their foreheads,
or in their hands;
and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The group I want to deal with are those (who were beheaded)for the word of God. Would somebody who was beheaded because of words spoken by God fit into this group? This would have to include any deaths given in the OT that were a result of what God said was to done. The deaths add up to quite a large number but this record might not cover everybody. Only the book of the wars of the LORD would contain a complete list of all the names.

I hope this addresses both original questions.

[sylvius]

The same that is said about Shaul sparing Agag, which eventually resulted in the birth of Haman, is said about Cain and Abel:

http://www.torahmail.com/learning/olas-shabbos/5764/bereishis.html
"According to the Midrash (Bereishis Rabba 22:8) an argument broke out between them that lead to a physical struggle. Hevel was the stronger of the two, and easily overcame his brother Kayin, pinning him to the ground. Kayin pleaded with his brother to release him from his grip; Hevel acceded. "And Kayin stood up," from beneath Hevel, "and he killed him." The fact that Hevel was willing to make peace, and in fact released Kayin from his grips, makes the murderous act all the more repulsive. "