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Trout
October 3rd 2008, 11:08 PM
Temporary Vs. Eternal

One of the great contrasts we make in Christianity is that while we realize we live in a fallen world, that that will change. This world is not meant to be around forever as it is. My eschatological position is that God will restore this world to a beauty and grandeur that far surpasses Eden. Even if you don’t hold a view exactly as mine, which is the right view by the way, (winks) we all believe in some heavenly afterlife (Although I prefer to call it after-death) that will be far better than this.

The problem is that we often lose sight of that. Granted that being a Christian is not about going to Heaven, but it is part of the package. What brought this to my mind most recently was an event that started probably around a year ago. A friend contacted me worried about their friendship with another mutual friend of ours and thinking “We’ve really messed it up! It’s just not going to last!”

I gave some words of comfort at the time that I do not recall, but several months later started pondering about temporary vs. eternal. I contacted this friend again and just said out of the blue “How are things going between you and X?”

“Fine. Why?”

Then I reminded this friend of what had happened months earlier and how it turned out to be nothing. This friend had seen a circumstance and for the moment, that seemed to eclipse all of reality. It had stepped out of being a “now” event to being an “all-time” event.

Some might think I’m chiding my friend or looking down on them. I’m not. If there’s one point that needs to be stated clearly about my relationship to this article, it is the old adage of “Those who can’t do, teach.” I am not the best at practicing what I teach, but I believe many in the Christian community in teaching would say the same.

Paul was one who realized the truth about looking at the temporary with a mindset of the eternal. (By eternal often here, I mean the heavenly worldview. We do not live an eternity, as we have a beginning, but we do live forever.) In 2 Cor. 4:17-18, we read these words of his:

17For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. 18So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

Notice that term that he uses here. “Light and momentary troubles.” What kind of troubles did Paul have? He tells us in 2 Cor.

23Are they servants of Christ? (I am out of my mind to talk like this.) I am more. I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. 24Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my own countrymen, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false brothers. 27I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. 28Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches. 29Who is weak, and I do not feel weak? Who is led into sin, and I do not inwardly burn?

Many of us live in the Western world and don’t have to face these kinds of persecutions. We are more abundantly blessed than most Christians alive and most Christians have been throughout history. While realizing that though, we should not deny that life can be tough for us at times. We go through many forms of suffering and there are times when atheists rail about the problem of evil that we can understand.

What if we did try though to consider events from the perspective of eternity? I’d like to go through a list and see how a more eternally-minded worldview could change our outlook.

Ourselves:

Let’s start with what’s closest to us. When we look at ourselves, do we tend to only see warts and blemishes, or do we try to keep in mind what is said in Romans 8, that we will be conformed to the likeness of the Son? Of course, we don’t deny problems and sins in our lives that we can deal with, but we don’t overstate them as if this is the way it will be forever. We look forward to the day when we shall be like him.

Other people: C.S. Lewis remarked at the end of his “The Weight of Glory” sermon, that we never meet ordinary people. He said that every person we meet will in the world to come be a creature we would be tempted to bow down and worship if we saw it, or one that would only be seen in our worst nightmares. What if we saw each person from that perspective and realized that how we treat them is pushing them towards one of those goals? This person we’re interacting with in some way is an image-bearer. Are we to treat them accordingly?

Friends: Naturally, there are some people we like better than others and get along with better. Do we have friends we want to spend eternity with? If so, we need to be showing them the truth now. Do we have friends we are going to spend an eternity with? If so, then we might as well get used to enjoying their company here and being thankful for them. Learn to delight in your friends. You will be doing it for a long time.

Family: Family are often the people in your life you love because you have to. If our family was not our family, chances are many of us would not care for them. Do we honor our family as we should? If you come from a bad family, are you praying for them? If you come from a good family, are you celebrating that relationship?

Marriage: And of course, the marital relationship will have to be included. I believe strongly that Christians are to date and marry Christians. I believe that in some way, the marriage relationship does extend into the afterlife. Heaven does not destroy the good things of Earth. Heaven perfects them. Whatever your relationship is like now with your spouse, consider that that person is one you will spend eternity with and you will love them deeply in eternity. Why not start loving them deeply now?

Work: For many of us, work is a necessary evil. However, it was a divine command given by God in the garden. Work and pleasure were co-related. (Remember guys, it was his command to go forth and multiply.) Work can be seen as taking part in the stewardship of the creation. In eternity, what great tasks could God have prepared for us as we explore his new creation?

Education: All truth is God’s truth. This is one I do focus on as there are many nights I go to bed and think about learning something new the next day. The journey of truth becomes exciting from the perspective of eternity as we realize that we will spend all eternity learning more and more about the God we serve. All truth we learn here I believe can somehow be used in eternity. Perchance we will be teaching others the fascinating things we’ve learned here.

Giving: A seminary students knows what it means to have a tight budget. As one though, I also try to remember that my Father is exceedingly wealthy. We are told to lay up treasures in Heaven (Matthew 6:20). When I see a situation of need, I try to keep in mind that God is capable of opening up the storehouses of Heaven. This isn’t prosperity gospel of course. This isn’t giving to get. This is giving with a reminder of who you serve.

Missionary work: Missionary work is from the eternal perspective going out into the world and reclaiming it for Christ. It is reaching new people and thereby spreading the good news of the kingdom. Rev. 7 tells us of a countless multitude no man can number from every tribe, language, and nation. Wouldn’t it be great to have your part in that?

Play: There is sadly very little said about play amongst Christians. We can speak about holiness and service and virtue, but do we speak about pleasure? Pleasure though is greater than work. God is intrinsically having pleasure within the Trinity, but not intrinsically working. One works so they can play. One doesn’t play so they can work. Taking pleasure in our lives is preparation for our taking pleasure in eternity of the joy of God and the creation.

Prayer: Prayer is a struggle for many of us, but consider it from eternity. Prayer is communication with God about how wonderful and awesome he is. Petition is only one part of it. It is an act of worship and since we will be doing such for eternity, why not get used to it now? We can view all worship the same way. Since we are to spend eternity in the worship of God, we should get used to such a lifestyle now.

Suffering: Ah yes. This is where most of us want some information. It has been said that viewed from eternity, the worst day here will seem like a minor head cold. Remember what Paul said at the beginning of this article. The way the Problem of Evil can kill us is if we see the evil overpowering eternity instead of eternity overpowering the evil. Think back in your own life. How many situations have you come through that you thought were the “end of the world” when they took place?

Now imagine being in the presence of God and seeing those same situations. They don’t seem as bad do they?

Now realize this point. You can boldly come to the throne of grace. You can be aware in any situation that God is there. This doesn’t necessarily mean you’ll feel a presence, but in your mind, you should be aware that you are not alone. No suffering, aside from dying without Christ is eternal and God redeems all of our wounds. Whatever pain you go through here will be made up for in eternity.

We are in the world, but we are not of the world. We are citizens of a heavenly city. We are to look forward to it. We are to run the race set before us. Runners who win races do so by looking at the goal and not at the distractions along the way. Let us be what we are meant to be. Let us view life from the perspective of eternity. We serve the God of all truth. It is time we believed him.

JonLanceBarker
October 4th 2008, 02:05 PM
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Trout
October 9th 2008, 02:18 PM
:bump:

Trout
October 11th 2008, 03:02 PM
:bump:

JonLanceBarker
October 11th 2008, 03:05 PM
:b_dance: :bump:

Ubes
November 17th 2008, 11:19 PM
I only got as far as this supercilious nonsense:

'Granted that being a Christian is not about going to Heaven, but it is part of the package. '

- and lost any interest in reading further.

This is the sort of meaningless new age drivel I'd expect to hear shouted over a microphone at a gathering of happy clappers.

If being a Christian isn't about going to 'Heaven' (capital H because apparently it represents a physical place with an actual name), then it must be the greatest neurotic guilt disorder in history.

Part of 'the package'? What sort of childish metaphore is this to use for a concept that is so elusive as to have confounded the greatest thinkers on earth? To compartmentalise the being of a Christian as a 'package' suggest an extraordinarily naive and probably an over-emotionalised response to one of the profound mysteries of creation.

One thing is certain however - Christianity is many things, and there are many things that it isn't - but its entire foundation is based upon an obscure offer of salvation. The best that I can make of this is that it offers a new communion with the creator, without the inherent impediments of temptation and disobedience. Call such a situation heaven if you like, but to call it Heaven (Map43, N5) is absolute absurdity. There is a night club I know of called Heaven - watched the Rollins Band there once but didn't meet any gods (or godesses, sadly).

If being a Christian is not all about the lucrative gift of salvation, or heaven, (or Heaven??), then you must be suggesting that Christians are possessed of an inate desire to obey the creator for the mere sake of it - because it is in our nature to do so. Yet not only would this make the offer of salvation redundant, it would also logically oppose another Christian fundamental, that humankind is born into disobedience.

I conclude by proclaiming that my first foray into this web site has been a disappointment.

Eru Ilúvatar
November 18th 2008, 12:17 AM
If being a Christian isn't about going to 'Heaven' (capital H because apparently it represents a physical place with an actual name), then it must be the greatest neurotic guilt disorder in history.


Being a Christian is about serving God...

I conclude by proclaiming that my first foray into this web site has been a disappointment.

I conclude that my first glimpse of your theology has been disappointing.

Ubes
November 18th 2008, 12:36 AM
'Being a Christian is about serving God...'

Rubbish. That is an illogical assumption based on human pride. How can a human satisfy the creator in relation to service? If this were the principal of Christianity it would have failed in its beginnings. What a thoroughly doomed hermeneutic you possess. We are as able to serve the creator about as much as a bag full of cats could sing opera.

Once again, you suggest that we possess an inate ability to transcend our birthright 'of the flesh', as Paul would put it. None of us would serve the creator purely for the sake of it. Adam and eve couldn't even do it when they all shared the same garden. It's an incredible presumption.

I am not suprised that you've offered no cogent explanation as to why your first glimpse of my theology disappoints you.

Eru Ilúvatar
November 18th 2008, 12:50 AM
Rubbish. That is an illogical assumption based on human pride. How can a human satisfy the creator in relation to service? I

By obeying His commands. Is this a trick question?

I am not suprised that you've offered no cogent explanation as to why your first glimpse of my theology disappoints you.

I see you have an excess supply of stomach bile you need to get rid of.

Ubes
November 18th 2008, 01:24 AM
Bile? Maybe so. I do suffer from it when people 'package' self serving nonsense in a Christianity wrapper. Especially when they presume to defend it with platitudes and shallow attempts at denigration fo their opponents by painting mental images of physical repulsion.

Weak.

As for obeying His commands, I will again point to the offer of salvation for most of us (apparently not all of us) who find ourselves unable, and intrinsically unwilling to carry out this task.

Or is Torah still the contemporary uber defintion of righteousness? Hmm, perhaps you're a Pharisee.

Eru Ilúvatar
November 18th 2008, 01:31 AM
Keep going. Your antics are rather amusing. How does your foot in your mouth taste like anyway?

. I do suffer from it when people 'package' self serving nonsense in a Christianity wrapper. Especially when they presume to defend it with platitudes and shallow attempts at denigration fo their opponents by painting mental images of physical repulsion.

Listen, fool, I never preached any of these things. When your done acting like a sanctimonious idiot maybe you'll point out where. But saying that the goal of being a Christian is going to Heaven is EXACTLY the self-serving nonsense you accuse me of.


As for obeying His commands, I will again point to the offer of salvation for most of us (apparently not all of us) who find ourselves unable, and intrinsically unwilling to carry out this task.

Yet that's our goal. We try, we fail, we try again. You, however, have failed.

Or is Torah still the contemporary uber defintion of righteousness? Hmm, perhaps you're a Pharisee.

Take the second foot out of your mouth and keep it shut. I never said one can be perfect in following the law of God.

Ubes
November 18th 2008, 01:38 AM
'How does your foot in your mouth taste like anyway?'

Irony.

Eru Ilúvatar
November 18th 2008, 01:38 AM
I see you don't have it in you to properly respond. Go to bed, fool.

GodChaser
November 23rd 2008, 01:27 PM
Though it has been several days since this scuffle amongst the replies occurred, I would like to toss in some idea's about the issue. Its possible neither party will like the idea's fully, but I didn't come here to be liked. I came here to share ideas I think are true, and see what truth lies with others.

Ubes made an interesting statement in his first post, which I feel does need to be addressed due to the truth that lies in it.

"If being a Christian isn't about going to 'Heaven' (capital H because apparently it represents a physical place with an actual name), then it must be the greatest neurotic guilt disorder in history."

Now at first my reaction was a slight bit of shock and defensive feelings, because I know I at least hear the idea that Christianity isn't about going to Heaven a lot from my church and have been told that the idea should be avoided, yet at the same time something about the statement seems to have a great deal of truth behind it.

If I think about Heaven as a place, Heaven would be anywhere God is. Heaven is the place where God always is exposed in all his glory and majesty. To say that a human who was in alignment with God would not want to be there dosn't seem to make much sense to me. What I feel we can be afraid of is that by saying going to heaven is the soul goal of Christianity we may be cheapening something, and in a sense we are if we don't acknowledge the next point. The reason we want to go to heaven is because God is there, and being creatures made by God part of us will always desire unity with him. Without unity with God it is believed there is little happiness, that there is some void in our hearts.

I don't think anyone that is a Christian would really argue that God made humans for communion with him, and that until they find communion with him they won't be able to operate in the way God intends or the way he wants. The issue I feel that arises is when too much emphasis is put upon this point. Being in communion and in the presence of God before and after death is a key part of Christian ideology, the point that is trying to be addressed by Túrin Turambar and Trout I feel is that being in communion with God isn't the only part.

The idea I feel is there is life after death and communion with God and we are saved by grace and are saved by an act of God, so great an act that we couldn't have possibly done it ourselves, but at the same time as a result of communion with God we begin to want to do as his commands state, the Holy spirit begins to move us toward a closer expression of his image in the way we act and the way we treat others.

The reasoning is that the key to Christian thought is God's act of salvation by sending Jesus to the cross does in fact save us, and as a result we get to be in God's presence (Heaven) and want to be. At the same time however, we have other duties we want to perform once we come into this fellowship. We feel called (and I believe are called) to try and lead others to God so that they might likewise partake in Christs blessing and God's benevolent heart. We are told to try and bring blessings to people on earth not just in an effort to make the lives they have here easier, but to point them to the king that might make their lives infinity better.

In closing I hope this brief rambling might in some way prove beneficial to the christian brotherhood of the site by trying to clear up some potentially minor errors in transmission of ideas that may have stood in the way of a mutual understanding. However, I will admit immediately that I don't know the intended meanings expressed by the authors here inherently, I'm not them. So if they feel I have misrepresented their idea's I would very much like to hear what they have to say in an effort to further rectify where I can. My intent is not to mock or belittle, but to come to an understanding, so if you feel I have done either of those things please either make your complaint known here or message me.

Once again thank you for your time, and I wish all of you an amazing day!
God Bless!
~Godchaser

humanevitae
December 3rd 2008, 11:51 PM
Hi Trout,
I enjoyed reading your article. You gave it a lot of thought. I didn't agree with all of it, but the parts I didn't agree on appear to be very minor.
Your article is an expression of good and evil and how they intermingle. I have an article that I copied from another which speaks of how evil doesn't stand a chance. This article explains how evil will always lose. I've incuded it here because I think you may really enjoy it.


_____________________________________

ORIGINAL SIN: EVIL IS SUBORDINATE TO GOOD

VATICAN CITY, 3 DEC 2008 (VIS) - In his general audience this morning, Benedict XVI continued his series of catecheses on the teachings of St. Paul . Addressing the 7,000 people gathered in the Paul VI Hall, he explained how the Apostle of the Gentiles, comparing the figures of Adam and Christ in his Letter to the Romans, "traces the basic outlines of the doctrine of original sin".

"The centre of the scene is occupied not so much by Adam and the consequences of sin on humanity, but by Jesus Christ and the grace which, through Him, was abundantly poured upon humanity".

"If, in the faith of the Church, an awareness arose of the dogma of original sin, this is because it is inseparably connected to another dogma, that of salvation and freedom in Christ. This means that we should never consider the sin of Adam and of humankind separately, without understanding them within the horizon of justification in Christ".

"As men and women of today we have to ask ourselves whether such a doctrine is still sustainable", said the Holy Father. "Many people think that, in the light of the history of evolution, there is no place for ... an original sin which extends through the history of humankind and that, consequently, the redemption and the Redeemer lose their foundation. Does, then, original sin exist or not?"

The Pope explained the importance of distinguishing between two aspects of the theory of original sin, one "an empirical, tangible reality, the other relating to the mystery, the ontological foundation of the event. In effect, there is a contradiction in our being. On the one hand we know we must do good, and in our inner selves this is what we desire, yet at the same time we feel an impulse to do the opposite, to follow the path of egoism, of violence, ... though we know that this means working against good, against God and against our fellow man".

"This inner contradiction of our being is not a theory. We all experience it every day as around us we see the second of these two wills prevail ", he said. "Suffice to think of daily news of injustices, violence, dissipation. This is a fact. From the power evil has over our souls, a foul river of evil has arisen over history, poisoning the human landscape. ... Yet at the same time this contradiction ... in our history arouses the desire for redemption. The truth is that the desire for the world to change, ... for the creation of a world of justice peace and goodness, is present everywhere".

"The power of evil in the heart and history of humankind is undeniable, yet how do we explain it? In the history of thought, discounting Christian faith, there exits one main explanatory model with a number of variants. This model holds that human beings are inherently contradictory: they carry good and evil in themselves. ... Such dualism is insuperable ... and will always be the same".

"In the evolutionist and atheistic view of the world ... it is held that human beings as such have, from the beginning, borne evil and good within themselves. ... Humans are not simply good, but open to good and to evil ... both of them original. Human history then, according to this view, does nothing more than follow the model present in all evolution. What Christians call original sin is only this blend of good and evil".

"This, in the final analysis, is a vision of despair. If it is true, evil is invincible, ... all that counts is individual interest, any form of progress would necessarily be paid for with a river of evil, ... and anyone who wishes to progress would have to pay this price. ... This modern idea, in the end, can create only sadness and cynicism".

"Again we ask ourselves: what does the faith say? ... St. Paul ... confirms the contradiction between the two natures, ... the reality of the darkness of evil weighing upon the whole of creation. Yet, in contrast to the desolation ... of dualism ... and monism, ... the faith speaks to us of two mysteries of light and one of darkness", and the mystery of darkness is "enclosed within in the mysteries of light".

"The faith tells us that there are no two principles, one good and one evil. There is only one principle which is God the Creator and He is solely good, without shadow of evil. Hence, neither are human beings a mix of good and evil. The human being as such is good. ... This is the joyful announcement of the faith: there is but one source, a source of good, the Creator, and for this reason ... life too is good".

"There is also a mystery of darkness, ... which does not arise from the source of being, it is not original. Evil arises from created freedom, a freedom that has been abused. How has this happened? This remains unclear. Evil is not logical. Only God and goodness are logical, only they are light. Evil remains a mystery, ... of itself illogical".

"Evil arises from a subordinate source; God with His light is stronger. For this reason evil can be overcome, for this reason the creature ... is not only curable but is in fact cured. God introduced the cure. He personally entered history and, to counteract the permanent source of evil, placed a source of pure good: Christ crucified and risen, the New Adam Who opposes the foul river of evil with a river of light ... that remains present in history".
AG/ORIGINAL SIN/... VIS 081203 (950)


humanevitae

JonLanceBarker
December 4th 2008, 01:11 AM
It's not Trout's article; he just published it. The author is ApologiaPhoenix.

humanevitae
December 11th 2008, 10:47 PM
It's not Trout's article; he just published it. The author is ApologiaPhoenix.



Thank you. I just realized it was written by ApologiaPhoenix.

humanevitae
December 11th 2008, 10:58 PM
I only got as far as this supercilious nonsense:

'Granted that being a Christian is not about going to Heaven, but it is part of the package. '

- and lost any interest in reading further.

This is the sort of meaningless new age drivel I'd expect to hear shouted over a microphone at a gathering of happy clappers.

If being a Christian isn't about going to 'Heaven' (capital H because apparently it represents a physical place with an actual name), then it must be the greatest neurotic guilt disorder in history.

Part of 'the package'? What sort of childish metaphore is this to use for a concept that is so elusive as to have confounded the greatest thinkers on earth? To compartmentalise the being of a Christian as a 'package' suggest an extraordinarily naive and probably an over-emotionalised response to one of the profound mysteries of creation.

One thing is certain however - Christianity is many things, and there are many things that it isn't - but its entire foundation is based upon an obscure offer of salvation. The best that I can make of this is that it offers a new communion with the creator, without the inherent impediments of temptation and disobedience. Call such a situation heaven if you like, but to call it Heaven (Map43, N5) is absolute absurdity. There is a night club I know of called Heaven - watched the Rollins Band there once but didn't meet any gods (or godesses, sadly).

If being a Christian is not all about the lucrative gift of salvation, or heaven, (or Heaven??), then you must be suggesting that Christians are possessed of an inate desire to obey the creator for the mere sake of it - because it is in our nature to do so. Yet not only would this make the offer of salvation redundant, it would also logically oppose another Christian fundamental, that humankind is born into disobedience.

I conclude by proclaiming that my first foray into this web site has been a disappointment.





It's actually understandable why an atheist would not think very positively of Heaven. Then, on the other hand every pagan people that ever existed believed in a god or gods. They would think that you are wierd.
Going to Heaven was actually a new thing at the time of Christ. No one had ever gone to Heaven before Jesus was crucified. No Jews, no pagans, no pantheists. This idea of Heaven came from Christianity. From the time of Adam and Eve, man has been barred from the gates of Heaven. It was the sacrifice of Jesus that permitted those doors to be opened.
Atheists, over the last 350 years have tried to close those gates again, but, thank God, they are poweless to do that.
Viva La Christianity.

Humane Vitae