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geebob
February 22nd 2003, 10:37 PM
In this thread, like to approach the question of free will from two angles. One is why I believe God what would motivate God to give us libertarian free will. These aren’t considered the most compelling reasons for libertarian free will but serves as an important part of the paradigm of free will theism. It also addresses an often neglected aspect of the free will defense against the problem of evil. Libertarian free will may necessarily lead to the possibility of evil though it severes the chain of causation and necessity back to the creator, but if there is little good reason for this aspect of creation through which evil may enter creation, then we are still left with the problem of evil. It is often said that love is the reason, but I’d like to shed a little light on that aspect as well as give other reasons.

Secondly, I will highlight other reasons why a Christian who values scripture as an authority (and has the rationality to recognize other epistemic authorities) should believe in free will mostly apart from considerations of possible motives in God.

Just a note on how I’d like this thread to proceed. This is a cumulative case thread thus it covers a wide variety of arguments. Thus a point by point argument from dissenters, if thorough, will be too long to early in the thread. Rigorous debate on a few of these issues may distract attention from other arguments. Thus I’d like to recommend that challenges be made to only a few of these at a time in different threads so as not to distract from the collection of arguments as a whole. Basically, I’d like this thread to proceed similarly as a thread would in the liberal arts section where rigorous debate is not really welcome, but questions for understanding are. Again, I am not against rigorous debate on these issues, I’d just rather that challenges are made to smaller chunks in different threads. In short, questions are welcome, polemics, in this thread are not.

Before I start, I’d like to give the following definition of libertarian free will. This comes from a well known and influential Philosopher, Alvin Plantinga, and it is a definition agreed upon by most if not all who ascribe to libertarian freedom.

If a person is free with respect to a given action, then he is free to perform the action and free to refrain from performing it; no antecedent conditions and/or causal laws determine that he will perform the action, or that he won't...It is within his power, at the time in question, to take or perform the action and within his power to refrain from it.
(Taken from Philosophy of Religion: Selected Readings by Peterson et al. pg. 267)



Possible motivations for God to create libertarian free creatures:

Love is of course the traditional reason given for making creatures with free will. The idea is that love that arises from an individual will not be as gratifying when returning to that individual. It should come from without and if the necessity for that love (necessity as in guaranteeing necessity) should arise from outside that individual. The only way for that necessity to come from within the source of love is for that source to have the possibility to not love.

Secondly, God desired to create us in his image, which would gratify himself as well as contribute to the intimacy between man and himself. We are not carbon copies of God and perhaps he did not have to give us free will as a common feature between us, as part of the image, but nevertheless, this feature was favored as part of that which we would have in common with him.

Next, there is our creative aspect. This is sort of an extension of the argument from the image of God but deserves it’s own consideration. As the creator made us in the image of the creator, naturally it would be most reasonable for us to be little creators. If all of our creative endeavors where preplanned, in particular how we would create and when, it’s not really the case that we created. Of course we could say that there is no creation we could think of that God didn’t already conceive, but for us to arrive at it by tracing steps that arise from our own volition clearly adds a creative quality that would not be there otherwise.

Finally, one reason that I know the least about is the notion that the flavor of consciousness that we have is only obtainable with free will. This argument is based upon our experience of free will. (this is not an argument that I will put much effort into defending. I suspect that arguments from Peter Van Inwagen’s An Essay on Free Will would provide the meat for the support for this argument. I still haven’t obtained a copy yet).


Scriptural and philosophical Evidence for libertarian free will:

So why should the Christian believe in free will? Scripturally speaking, it becomes necessary when you take from scripture God’s universal Salvific will and the real chance of damnation. Naturally, those who reject that the scriptures indicates that God desires and has made possible salvation for all will reject this argument.

Basically, if every individual has the real chance to respond to salvation and the real chance of damnation regardless of prior antecedent conditions, then the glove of the definition given fits. Somehow, we can act such that we will be saved or refrain from that action (the action in Christianity being belief).


Secondly, scriptures that indicate that more than one possibility for us to choose amongst as real is proof for lfw. The only way to answer this type of proof is to show that the scripture does not present more than one truly available possibility. I believe that the strongest scriptural statement to the end of showing the availability of multiple possibilities is 1 Corinthians 10:13:

No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

If you reject that Christians do sin, then this will not be a convincing argument. If Christians do sin, then this verse means that it was also truly possible for the Christian to not sin. If it was not possible for the Christian to avoid sin, then it is not true that there was a “way out” thus God was not faithful.

Thirdly, for many, moral blame is meaningless outside a libertarian system. Scripture is of course filled with the designations of moral accountability.

Fourth, any scripture in which an unresolved potential within man’s heart is indicated is evidence for free will. Free will is of course the reason that the unresolved potential exists.

A classic example is God’s exclamation to Abraham “Now I know that you fear the Lord because you did not withhold your only son from the Lord”.

Also, a few times we read that God says that he tests “to see” what man will do. Exodus 16:4.

Free will theists who are not open theists may not like the notion that God gives these tests “to see” what people will do, but I believe they may still take advantage of the notion of the test as indicative of free will regardless of the apparent epistemic claims God is making here. But we open theists will point out that it is God’s claim to new knowledge that is what really anchors the notion of the test as indicative of free will, since the only reason that God could not be aware of the certainty of how the test will turn out because no such certainty exists to be known. This is all that will be said on the issue of foreknowledge (in terms of arguing with other free will theists :smile: ) the debate on whether free will really negates certain foreknowledge will in general be considered off topic.


These are some examples that have stuck out for me in terms of evidence of libertarian free will from scripture. If anyone else would like to add to these, that would be beuno!

Wesley's son
February 25th 2003, 11:02 PM
Would the Lord's appointing Saul (who later went homicidal) as Israel's first king, and Jesus choosing Judas Iscariot (who later betrayed Him) to be a member of His twelve be legitimate examples in this proposition?

geebob
February 25th 2003, 11:28 PM
I believe so, but I don't know that it is as obvious as with the other examples.

Actually, with Judas, it may be the case that he was destined to betray Jesus from the beginning of Jesus' ministry. So he had his libertarian free moments before that point, and during those moments, it was truly possible for his life to take another route.

But there is no direct evidence of this but rather it is a part of my paradigm for interpreting scripture which gains it's strength from other passages such as the ones listed in my topic.

As for Saul, God said he would have established his line over israel but not in light of his behavior, So I'd say that it serves as decent evidence.

geoff
February 26th 2003, 02:49 PM
Actually, it was judas' libertarian freewill which caused him to fulfil the prophecies that He did...

It was his free choices, foreknown by God, which he made, freely... which begs the question, if His free choices are foreknown and planned for by God, just what does "libertarian free will" mean?

geebob
February 26th 2003, 03:11 PM
just what does "libertarian free will" mean?

the following from Alvin Plantinga, is agreed upon by all libertarian free will'ers.


If a person is free with respect to a given action, then he is free to perform the action and free to refrain from performing it; no antecedent conditions and/or causal laws determine that he will perform the action, or that he won't...It is within his power, at the time in question, to take or perform the action and within his power to refrain from it.
(Taken from Philosophy of Religion: Selected Readings by Peterson et al. pg. 267)

this is the view that is argued in this thread.

geoff
February 26th 2003, 03:13 PM
Well, that doesnt agree with what happened in the Judas scenario, so, are libertarian free willers right? Or is God?

geebob
February 26th 2003, 03:23 PM
Well, that doesnt agree with what happened in the Judas scenario

When didn't it describe his situation? As a libertarian, I believe that lfw is necessary for moral responsibility, but as long as the caracter was formed via lfw, I believe any compatible choices that arise out of that caracter formed in a libertarian way carry with it the moral responsibility of the choices.

yxboom
February 26th 2003, 04:11 PM
Saul is an excellent example of LFW in that what became of God's appointing him as king.
1 Samuel 13:13
And Samuel said to Saul, "You have done foolishly. You have not kept the commandment of the Lord your God, which He commanded you. For now the Lord would have established your kingdom over Israel forever. 14 But now your kingdom shall not continue. The Lord has sought for Himself a man after His own heart, and the Lord has commanded him to be commander over His people, because you have not kept what the Lord commanded you."
Should Saul have continued in his appointment God would have continued in the Saulite kingdom but because of Saul's choice to rebel we now speak of a Davidic kingdom which this passage explains.

Jaltus
February 26th 2003, 06:24 PM
geebob,

Is this an article, Peter Van Inwagen’s An Essay on Free Will , and if so, from what journal?

I might be able to find a copy for you in the library at TEDS. If not, let me know and I'll drop it.

geebob
February 26th 2003, 09:51 PM
Thanks but it's a book. It's considered a classic and the arguementation is very original. Review at amazon said that he invented the some of the modern semantics of calling free will compatibilistic and incompatibilistic though I have to wonder about that. I've spoken with him a little bit and interestingly, he rejects the term "libertarian" but he believes in incompatabilistic free will.

Jaltus
February 26th 2003, 11:08 PM
There are two used ones, with a like new copy for $19 at amazon.

geebob
February 26th 2003, 11:14 PM
I imagine anyone interested in the philosophical look at free will should have this. If you don't get the like new copy, I will. The race is on!

Jaltus
February 26th 2003, 11:17 PM
Can't, just got The Only Wise God by Craig and God, Time, and Eternity by Hasker.

geebob
February 26th 2003, 11:23 PM
cool, that means i'm getting it. :yipee:

geoff
March 2nd 2003, 04:30 AM
02-27-2003 @ 07:23 AM
geebob:



When didn't it describe his situation? As a libertarian, I believe that lfw is necessary for moral responsibility, but as long as the caracter was formed via lfw, I believe any compatible choices that arise out of that caracter formed in a libertarian way carry with it the moral responsibility of the choices.

In the case of Judas, he CHOSE to sell Jesus out, he didnt have to, but he did. He freely chose, there is no hint of him having any battle of the will etc. He freely chose. And yet, we are told that this is according to the foreknowledge and plan of God.

Every human being has LFW, and yet God foreknows what every human being will freely choose. Its right there in scripture.

As for Saul, Israel was warned by God, through Samuel what would happen if they wanted a king now.. how bad it would be, how he would stuff up.. He told them not to ask, to wait.. and yet they persisted... and so He gave them the King they wanted, and proved God right.

God KNEW Saul would stuff up. God knew Sauls free choice would lead to his downfall... the story of Saul reinforces the point that the kind of LFW espoused by geebob, and other OV types is theologically inept, nieve, and inaccurate (thats a general observation btw, if you choose to take it as a personal insult, tough).

geebob
March 2nd 2003, 11:34 AM
as I mentioned in the topic, the issue of the compatibility of foreknowledge and free will is off topic.

it is already the focus of several threads.

geoff
March 2nd 2003, 01:36 PM
You said:

"In this thread, like to approach the question of free will from two angles. One is why I believe God what would motivate God to give us libertarian free will." AND
"Secondly, I will highlight other reasons why a Christian who values scripture as an authority (and has the rationality to recognize other epistemic authorities) should believe in free will mostly apart from considerations of possible motives in God."

What I said was directly related to, and concerned with both these points.

geebob
March 2nd 2003, 09:35 PM
This is not a thread for debating the compatibility of foreknowledge and free will.

The issue may be broached for the following reasons. Some scriptures that indicate openess in God's knowledge will be considered as direct evidence for liberian free will. Free will theists who are not convinced that those scriptures indicate an open future may voice their disagreement, but debate on it is not appropriate for this thread. They can start their own thread on it.

Likewise, If a free will theist wants to cite a verse that is indicative of lfw but shows that God foreknew the decision, they are welcome to do so though an open theist may disagree. But ensuing debate is out of the scope of this topic.

Free will and issues of compatibility or incompatibility with foreknowledge are of course highly relevent to the issue of free will, but that is a narrow issue that is not essential to all discussion with regard to free will. It is a specific issue that will not be the subject of debate here.

As I am heavily involved in this thread, I will not take action, regarding deletions of deliberately off topic posts. But Gray Pilgrim or DeeDeeWarren will.

If anyone wants to argue with the judgement here, take it up in the rant closet. It also is off topic.


As for the definition, it is agreed upon by almost all if not all libertarians open view or not. Alvin Plantinga is a molinist, not an open viewer. Anyone else who sees compatibility issues with it and foreknowledge as I do, bless your heart, but it's not the topic.

geoff
March 2nd 2003, 09:39 PM
all I can say is...

*sigh*

:bonk:

brother vinny
April 14th 2006, 12:15 AM
:bump:

micah4
April 14th 2006, 12:49 AM
Wow vinny, bump on a three year old thread?

What do you want to talk about?

Xmansmommy
April 14th 2006, 08:00 AM
I miss geebob. :bawl:

seer
April 14th 2006, 09:09 AM
I miss geebob. :bawl:

Where did he go?

Xmansmommy
April 14th 2006, 09:28 AM
Got busy with school if memory serves me correctly.

seer
April 14th 2006, 09:36 AM
Got busy with school if memory serves me correctly.

Sheesh! I thought he died or something! Don't do that crying thing... ; )

Xmansmommy
April 14th 2006, 09:45 AM
:hehe: Hey I can't help it I miss people to tears. :wink: