Link:
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...ed=1#post27647
This will set the stage for forthcoming posts addressing the purpose(s) of Jesus' death on the cross. (Obviously this veers off the topic of "Open Theism". Hence the new thread.)
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...ed=1#post27647
Originally posted by hedrick
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I don't think this is really a question about open theism. Rather, it's a question about the Incarnation. Was Jesus really human with human limitations? It's pretty clear from other parts of the Gospel that he knew he was going to have to die. Even if God doesn't determine all details of the future, surely this is one case where he did. If we were computers, it would be silly to pray for a cup to pass when you knew it wouldn't, and in fact couldn't if you were going to complete a mission you had accepted. But for a human it's completely natural, I think.
I think the Gospels suggest that whatever certainty Jesus had about God to some extent was obscured during this period. While there are other ways to explain it, I think his cry from the cross that God had abandoned him was real, that as the person taking the consequences of our sins, he was for a time separated from the consciousness of God. I understand that this is paradoxical for someone who is the incarnation of God, but our understanding of what it meant for Jesus to be identified with God needs to be based on the Biblical account.
I think the Gospels suggest that whatever certainty Jesus had about God to some extent was obscured during this period. While there are other ways to explain it, I think his cry from the cross that God had abandoned him was real, that as the person taking the consequences of our sins, he was for a time separated from the consciousness of God. I understand that this is paradoxical for someone who is the incarnation of God, but our understanding of what it meant for Jesus to be identified with God needs to be based on the Biblical account.
Originally posted by The Remonstrant
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I do not personally believe the Father ever abandoned the Son. In his angst Jesus may have felt as though he had, but the Father and Son are/were one (not in the modalistic sense, though). Jesus' cry on the tree resonates with the suffering of God's righteous servants throughout the centuries.
There was never a break in the trinity. God vindicated Jesus by raising him from the dead. Never was the Father angry with the Son, nor did he use him as an object to vent his wrath out on.1 For those inclined to believe otherwise, I would suggest they read Psalm 22 in its entirety. Verse 24 is especially relevant: "For he [God] has not despised or abhorred the affliction of the afflicted, and he has not hidden his face from him, but has heard, when he cried to him" (ESV2). Jesus' own words in John's Gospel also confirm this interpretation.
This would include the cross.
Notes
1 Many evangelicals will find this statement unsettling as they believe Jesus was literally punished by the Father on the cross in order to pay a sin debt (either for the elect's sake or the whole world).
2 All Scripture quotations are taken from the English Standard Version, emphasis added.
There was never a break in the trinity. God vindicated Jesus by raising him from the dead. Never was the Father angry with the Son, nor did he use him as an object to vent his wrath out on.1 For those inclined to believe otherwise, I would suggest they read Psalm 22 in its entirety. Verse 24 is especially relevant: "For he [God] has not despised or abhorred the affliction of the afflicted, and he has not hidden his face from him, but has heard, when he cried to him" (ESV2). Jesus' own words in John's Gospel also confirm this interpretation.
"When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me. And he who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to him." (John 8:28,29)
This would include the cross.
Notes
1 Many evangelicals will find this statement unsettling as they believe Jesus was literally punished by the Father on the cross in order to pay a sin debt (either for the elect's sake or the whole world).
2 All Scripture quotations are taken from the English Standard Version, emphasis added.
Originally posted by RBerman
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This makes me wonder what you think the purpose of Jesus' death was, but that sounds like a topic for another thread, if you're so inclined.
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