Tigris and Euphrates

[Nimrod]

Genesis 2:10-14
"A river watering the garden flowed from Eden; from there it was separated into four headwaters.
11 The name of the first is the Pishon; it winds through the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold.
12 (The gold of that land is good; aromatic resin and onyx are also there.)
13 The name of the second river is the Gihon; it winds through the entire land of Cush.
14 The name of the third river is the Tigris; it runs along the east side of Asshur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates."

Are the third and fourth rivers considered to be the same as the modern-day rivers?

[Waterrock]

Nimrod,

Tigris and Euphrates


Genesis 2:10-14
"A river watering the garden flowed from Eden; from there it was separated into four headwaters.
11 The name of the first is the Pishon; it winds through the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold.
12 (The gold of that land is good; aromatic resin and onyx are also there.)
13 The name of the second river is the Gihon; it winds through the entire land of Cush.
14 The name of the third river is the Tigris; it runs along the east side of Asshur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates."

N: "Are the third and fourth rivers considered to be the same as the modern-day rivers?"

Yes; although the courses of the Tigris and Euphrates have changed quite a bit at their SE extremities over the centuries, they are the same two rivers.

One of the other two (the Gihon) is now called the Karun (flowing north into Iran from the NW corner of the Persian Gulf). The Pishon has dried up; however traces of its location have been detected and mapped.

(All this assumes that the Garden of Eden was located near the SE end of the Tigris and Euphrates rather than somewhere around their NW ends.)

Yours in Christ,

Waterrock

[Socrates]

Yesterday @ 03:18 AM post located here (http://ls101.serverindo.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=248821#post248821)
Nimrod:

Genesis 2:10-14
"A river watering the garden flowed from Eden; from there it was separated into four headwaters.
11 The name of the first is the Pishon; it winds through the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold.
12 (The gold of that land is good; aromatic resin and onyx are also there.)
13 The name of the second river is the Gihon; it winds through the entire land of Cush.
14 The name of the third river is the Tigris; it runs along the east side of Asshur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates."
Are the third and fourth rivers considered to be the same as the modern-day rivers?

No, and neither are the Tigris and Euphrates. The global Flood obviously rearranged the geography of the earth, as Augustine and Luther recognized. It's obvious that the description of Eden is not Mesopotamia, because this doesn't have one river breaking into four, or a river going from there and flowing into Cush (Ethiopia) or modern-day or Sudan. The pre-Flood rivers were buried under thousands of feed of Flood sediments, so we have no idea where Eden was.

The correct explanation can be shown by recent history of emigration. New towns established by British settlers in North America, Australia and New Zealand were frequently assigned names that were familiar place-names in the land they had left; e.g. Liverpool, Hamilton, Oxford, Sheffield, Newcastle and Brighton. Similarly, features in the post-Flood world were given names familiar to those who survived the Flood.

[Nimrod]

So, who's right? Waterrock or Socrates?

[Xmansmommy]

:nsm:, :frown:

[Nimrod]

Any takers?

Also, any explanation of the present tense in verses 11-14?
And, the reason for the specific detail about Havilah?

[Socrates]

Today @ 10:32 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=251901#post251901)
Nimrod:

Also, any explanation of the present tense in verses 11-14?
And, the reason for the specific detail about Havilah?

It would be explained easily if the document was written at the time Eden still existed, possibly by Adam himself. It is most likely that Moses was the EDITOR of Genesis from pre-existing tablets. Supporting evidence is the many editorial comments (e.g. Gen. 26:33, 32:32). Sometimes the ancient tablets were left alone, e.g. 10:19 where directions are matter-of-factly given to Sodom, a city long destroyed and under the Dead Sea by Moses' time.

[Nimrod]

"So, who's right? Waterrock or Socrates?"

Socrates, I'm quite sure that you agree with yourself ... :wink:

Are you saying that Adam wrote "The gold of that land is good; aromatic resin and onyx are also there"?

Is there any evidence that Adam wrote part of Genesis?

Also, you say: " ... if the document was written at the time Eden still existed, possibly by Adam himself." Possibly? What are the other possibilities? Who else besides Adam and Eve would have writtten the document "at the time Eden still existed"? And why would an "editor" keep the present tense for something that no longer was present?

So far, your argument is weak. Would you be kind enough to provide some additional support for your position?

[Nimrod]

There are two contradictory answers in this thread.

So I'll ask two simple questions:

Are the Tigris and Euphrates rivers mentioned in Genesis 2 the same as the modern-day rivers with the same names?

Is there any evidence that Adam wrote part of Genesis?

[Socrates]

Nimrod:

"So, who's right? Waterrock or Socrates?"

Socrates, I'm quite sure that you agree with yourself ... :wink:

Yep, my view hasn't changed for the very simple reason that it hasn't been refuted, and the proposed contrary view has the major problems I've pointed out.


Are you saying that Adam wrote "The gold of that land is good; aromatic resin and onyx are also there"?

Is there any evidence that Adam wrote part of Genesis?

Yes, as explained above by my point that Moses was the editor. Also, Adam was in a position to know first hand what happened in most of Genesis 2-5.


Also, you say: " ... if the document was written at the time Eden still existed, possibly by Adam himself." Possibly? What are the other possibilities? Who else besides Adam and Eve would have writtten the document "at the time Eden still existed"? And why would an "editor" keep the present tense for something that no longer was present?

That's the way the Bible's editors wrote. Sometimes they updated anachrononisms, and sometimes not, possibly as a hint that the document was far more ancient than they were.


So far, your argument is weak.

So far, your attempts at refutation are weak.


Would you be kind enough to provide some additional support for your position?

Would you be kind enough to provide some evidence that what I've provided so far is inadequate?


Nimrod:

There are two contradictory answers in this thread.

They are technically contrary answers. My one, and a wrong one :rofl:


So I'll ask two simple questions:

Are the Tigris and Euphrates rivers mentioned in Genesis 2 the same as the modern-day rivers with the same names?

No, that's impossible.


Is there any evidence that Adam wrote part of Genesis?

Yes.

[Nimrod]

Actually, Socrates, as Solly points out: Please keep to the rules of the Intro to Theology forum, which have been updated as of 28.10.03: a question is posted, and answers are given; no discussion. if you want to debate, start a thread elsewhere. Notice (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/announcement.php?s=&forumid=9)

You've already given your answer; Waterrock gave his.

Technically, you have also answered the question "Is there any evidence that Adam wrote part of Genesis?"

My follow-up question: What is the evidence that Adam wrote part of Genesis? (That "Adam was in a position to know first hand what happened in most of Genesis 2-5" is not evidence that he wrote it.)

[Xmansmommy]

Nimrod, as the thread starter you can request the thread be moved to another forum if you desire to have discussion between participants of the thread. Let myself or one of the other mods know so it can be moved. Otherwise discussion amongst participants is not allowed. Thank you all for your cooperation.

[$cirisme]

So far, your argument is weak. Would you be kind enough to provide some additional support for your position?

Okay, folks, this is over the line and opens up the possibility for debate. There are no arguments nor refutations in a non-debate section. Nimrod, please ask something specific* so we can procede with productive discussion. If you are unwilling/unable to do so, please let me know so we can move this topic elsewhere where such a debatable statement can be made and discussed.

* Something specific could ber a question such as "You say _____, but that seems to cause an inconsistency with ______. How can that be resolved?", "You say _______, but I don't understand how that fits. Could you clarify?", etc...

[TedO]

Answering the question what is the evidence Adam wrote part of Genesis. Evidence is certainly not going to be found in the form of anything concrete (or stone), but literary criticism yields some clues. For more details see the Tablet Theory of Genesis authorship.

http://www.trueorigin.org/tablet.asp

[Nimrod]

Where was the Garden of Eden?

What form of writing would Adam have used, eg. cuneiform, pictograms, ideograms?

[TedO]

We have no way of knowing these answers to these questions...