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sylas
December 7th 2008, 09:19 AM
Detailed weather records at various stations in the USA and other parts of the world have been maintained for hundreds of years. Though this was not the original intent, resulting data makes up a historical record that might be used to track long term changes in climate over the whole globe. Such a data resource is now potentially of great value in the study of Earth's climate.

There are serious questions about how much this data can reveal, or how reliable it can be. It was never envisaged that the data would be used for such a large application. The records from individual stations are often patchy, and over time there are all kinds of changes that take place that might impact the readings obtained. There are many sources of error that can distort readings, and any trends obtained in this way must to consider the quality of data and their consistency over time.

The quality and validity of these historical trends has been called into question in a number of other threads, in particular relating to temperature records, and this thread is here for discussion of the issues surrounding the matter.

(1) Thread scope: the land temperature record for continental USA

The scope of the thread is discussion of the land temperature record in the continental USA. Other aspects of climate debates do not belong here, except when they are directly related to the main topic in some way.

There are other threads that are wide open to more general topics. As thread originator I am asking that this thread maintain a clear and tight focus on the continental USA land temperature record. Let's keep this thread focused, substantive, and civil. Anyone is welcome to join in, with questions or answers or comments or that relate to the topic.

Since the topic has appeared a number of times in previous threads, it may sometimes be useful to supply links to relevant posts as background, or to give quotes from posts in other threads; but the thread of discussion here must be self-contained and comprehensible by reading the text available in this thread alone. Links are good for additional background or as references, but not as substitutes for readable questions or answers.

You can augment a quote tag like this -- [quote=sylas, in thread 'Global Warming';2513271] -- if you would like to indicate that it is from another thread.

The thread is a tad messy, as shadowmaster notes. And I have issues at home which mean I won't always be as quick as others. So when I have a more detailed reply for you, I will simply make it a new thread entirely, and post a shorter summary with link here. The new thread will have a limited focus, and will be open to participation from anyone. …

As a general caution when looking at data; remain aware of whether you are looking at temperature data in Fahrenheit or Celcius. Most scientific work, especially for international use, is based on Celcius; but much of the local US material uses Fahrenheit.

(2) Background information and data sources

There are two major collections of historical temperature data for the continental USA that have been a focus for discussion in previous threads, and a couple of other potentially relevant records.

(2.1) USHCN. The United States Historical Climatology Network (http://cdiac.ornl.gov/epubs/ndp/ushcn/newushcn.html) is a collection of historical records from 1221 weather stations across the 48 states of the continental USA. The stations chosen for inclusion in this set are mostly rural stations, with some in more urban settings. 820 are classified rural, 288 are associated with a small town with a population of less than 50,000; and 113 are classified urban, associated with cities with a population of 50,000 or more.

For these stations, historical records have been obtained from a number of sources, and digitized. The freely downloadable data includes daily recorded information for each station, and a number of monthly temperature time series. There are series for min, max, and mean temperature, and in each case there are four series available, with a series of successive corrections to systematic errors.

A series based on the raw data. (AREAL)
A series corrected for systematic errors arising from time of observation bias. (TOBS)
A series corrected for discontinuities in the station history, such as a movement in the site, or a change in the instruments. Missing values are also added based on neighbouring stations. (FILNET)
A series corrected for an urban hear island systematic bias. (URBAN)

A major question arising in the previous threads is the validity of these corrections.

Monthly data, and daily data, can be obtained either as complete files by ftp, or through a graphical user interface, which will also allow plots to be produced. It's a good idea to read the documentation before using the data. You can find the data from the menu down the left hand side of the USHCN page (http://cdiac.ornl.gov/epubs/ndp/ushcn/newushcn.html ).

(2.2) GHCN. The Global Historical Climatology Network (http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/ghcn-monthly/index.php) is a larger set of land stations that covers the whole globe. USHCN stations are a strict subset. The GHCN includes also an additional 620 stations in the continental USA, which are relevant for this thread. The additional stations are mostly from a dataset (TD-3280) for airport, and a smaller number of additions from other sources.

The GHCN uses USHCN as a data source, and produces its own data files, which can be obtained by ftp from the NCDC (ftp://ftp.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/ghcn/v2/). A mapping between GHCN ids and USHCN ids is available in a file ushcn.tbl (http://code.google.com/p/open-gistemp/source/browse/trunk/input_files/ushcn.tbl?r=5). More convenient for a quick look is the graphical user interface at GISS (http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/station_data/) which allows one to plot various data for different stations.

(2.3) Co-operative Observers There are thousands of other small weather stations all across the continental USA as part of the Cooperative Observer Program (http://www.nws.noaa.gov/om/coop/what-is-coop.html) of the National Weather Service. This information is used in various ways, but not usually (as far as I am aware) by groups looking at global trends, or trends across the USA.

(2.4) USCRN The US Climate Reference Network (http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/crn/programoverview.html) is a recent development. It is a network of high quality stations across the USA. This is planned to give better historical data for future researchers; but there is no associated historical data now that can be used to look at trends into the past century.

(3) Inferred history of mean temperature change across the USA

Information from combined sources is used by a number of different research groups to infer trends in mean temperature change over the last century and up to the present. The final calculated data product is usually a grid over the whole world, with monthly values at each grid cell. Values are given not as temperatures, but as anomalies, or the change in temperature. Given a long temperature record for a given land station, a baseline monthly average for that station is obtained, and then the entire series for the station is made into an "anomaly" by subtracting from all monthly temperatures the mean value at that station and for that month. Then it is the anomalies which are combined for a global or regional average anomaly.

A trend for the whole continental USA can be obtained by averaging across the appropriate grid cells. The NASA climate group in the USA also produces some figures for the USA in particular, and interested individuals can also calculate for themselves such means from the grids given by other research groups. It's a bit of work, but there's also nothing stopping any individual from using weather station records themselves to calculate anomalies for the USA. I've done this, and reported my results here at TWeb some months ago. (msg #56 of "The Last Warming")

The NASA climate group's USA anomaly trend can be downloaded in ascii here (http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/Fig.D.txt). Here is a plot of the trend as of Jan 2008.
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(4) Correcting historical data for systematic error

A major question that has been raised about the inference of trends is the role of error corrections. Historical temperature data is not used directly as recorded, but only after various corrections have been applied to account for systematic source of error.

It is therefore relevant to examine these corrections to see if they are legitimate.

(4.1) Time of observation bias

The most important correction to historical data is for a "time of observation bias". The times at which temperature observations are made – the operating schedule – varies over the operating life a station. For some stations there are multiple temperature readings per day, and this allows a reasonable estimate of the mean temperature. For most of the historical data, however, stations only record one temperature reading per day. Information about the operating schedule is available as meta-data.

It would obviously be incorrect to infer trends directly from raw data when temperatures in different years are based on readings made at a different time of day. The solution has been to apply a "time of observation" correction. Using information from first order stations, that take multiple readings of temperature throughout the day, a mean "climatology" is obtained. This gives the mean difference between readings at a certain time (date and hour) and the average temperature on that day. From this, a suitable correction is applied to compensate for the observing schedule.

(4.2) Station history adjustment

Meta data for stations can also record other major events. There may be changes in the instruments used, or in the location of a station. These introduce small discontinuities, or discrete jumps, in the temperature data obtained before and after the relevant event. There is also an attempt to use meta-data to identify such discontinuities, measure their effect, and compensate. One particular correction, called MMTS, is related to a change in instrumentation.

(4.3) Urban heat island effects

Urban environment can show a significant difference in mean temperature by comparison with rural environments. If the land around a weather station has become increasingly urbanized over time, then this may show up as a spurious warming trend, which ought to be removed.

There are a range of ways in which this effect is identified and compensated. For most of the USHCN stations, the effect is pretty negligible, as they are sited well away from large urban environments. But in some cases it may be significant, and this is a topic to consider also in the thread.

(4.4) The effect of corrections

The combined effect of all the various corrections has generally been to give a small increase in the warming effect by comparison with what would be obtained from raw data. Nevertheless, it cannot be presumed on this basis that the corrections must be a distortion. The validity of management of systematic errors has to be considered on its own merits. Here are plots, from documentation of USHCN data (http://cdiac.ornl.gov/epubs/ndp/ushcn/ndp019.html), which show the annual USA anomaly as obtained by RAW, TOBS, FILNET and URBAN data files. The SHAP and MMTS files are intermediate between TOBS and FILNET, and described in the documentation. The second graph shows the differences between the anomaly plots, which make it easier to see the additional trend.
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Perhaps counter-intuitively, historical reconstructions can change over time, as new records become digitized and available, or as error correction or other processing is refined. In msg #1056 of "Global Warming" grmorton provides an animation that contrasts before and after of a revision to processing of historical data at NASA. The updates are documented at A closer look at United States and global surface temperature change (http://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/abstracts/2001/Hansen_etal.html); the major change is precisely that they started to take account of the time of observation bias and other systematic errors listed above.

In this animation, bear in mind that the difference between 1999 and 2008 includes almost another ten years of data. To help focus on the differences made by error corrections only, I've attempted to edit the animation to remove this extra data, and just compare the updates. Original and edited animations are both shown.
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(5) Unidentified errors that may distort results

As well as systematic errors that might be identified from meta-data, there can also be problems with the siting or management of a weather station, which might not be recognized simply from available data. It's sometimes possible to identify large deviations in a temperature record and use this to flag potential problems, but there are likely to be many other issues that lead to inaccuracies from some stations.

Several examples have been proposed in various threads. A frequently cited example is if an air conditioner outlet is located anywhere nearby a thermometer. There's potential for spurious heating from the air conditioner to distort results. Many such examples have been given by gmorton, and a major reference often used to consider defects at individual stations is surfacestations.org (http://www.surfacestations.org/). This is a volunteer effort aiming to make their own classifications for as many of the USHCN and GHCN stations as possible, and it is widely referenced by people who are dubious of the value of trends obtained from weather stations in the USA.

Here's an example provided by grmorton of a badly located station with a nearby air conditioner, taken from msg #299 of thread "Global Cooling Anyone?"
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Note that even it is was possible to examine closely every weather station in the network, we could still have no assurance of identifying problems like this; because we are interested in historical data; and observing stations now tells us nothing about similar issues in the past.

One way to check for whether or not such poorly managed stations are causing a problem is to repeat calculations of the mean USA anomaly using only a small subset of stations for which such problems are expected to be minimal. If the same trend is obtained, this indicates that there is no significant systematic bias associated with using larger datasets. The larger datasets are still useful because they allow for better resolution of differences across the region. If we were only interested in a mean US anomaly, then a more sparse set of observations would be adequate. In the future, the USCRN can serve this purpose. For trends into the last century, we can still identify a subset of stations that are less likely to be afflicted with major distortions. I've done this myself in msg #56 of "The Last Warming" using only stations listed as "class-1" by the surfacestations group, and have shown that the effect on the USA trend is negligible. Here is my plot repeated from that post.
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(6) Statistical significance of trends

Finally, another criticism sometimes raised is that because there are variations in temperature from year to year, a trend in mean temperature is insignificant. This argument is based on quantifying the variation for stations, and quantifying trends, and giving various statistical arguments for whether or not a trend is significant.

This argument is distinct from questions about the accuracy of data. It can be engaged by using standard mathematical concepts of significance and trend analysis.

300

I'll be adding some posts myself to delve into some aspects more deeply; and I hope others will join into to identify matters they think most important, or to present their perspective.

Cheers -- Sylas

sc_q_jayce
December 7th 2008, 01:18 PM
Has anyone employed change point analysis to the data by any chance?

shadowmaster
December 7th 2008, 01:52 PM
As a reference point to global warming, can you show how the data for world warming compares with the USA? In places it was claimed that the USA is not typical. Is the world warming more, less, or the same? Is world data as reliable as the USA? What about you people who live down on the wrong half of the planet?:teeth:

MrManNo1
December 7th 2008, 01:59 PM
Global warming thread: part 2?

What was the point in making this into another thread?

shadowmaster
December 7th 2008, 02:05 PM
Global warming thread: part 2?

What was the point in making this into another thread?

As the Shadowmaster understands it, it was to isolate a smaller issue of land only and USA only. It just makes the discussion more limited. The other site still exists --- where the Shadowmaster's last posts were concerned about the sea.

sylas
December 7th 2008, 04:53 PM
As a reference point to global warming, can you show how the data for world warming compares with the USA? In places it was claimed that the USA is not typical. Is the world warming more, less, or the same? Is world data as reliable as the USA? ...

As the shadowmaster noted elsewhere; this is not a global warming thread. It's much more limited in scope. The measurement of temperature and anomalies in the USA is potentially of interest in its own right, you don't have to care about global warming.

On the other hand, the reason most people are interested is because of the global warming issue, and this subtopic has cropped up repeatedly over the last six months in a number of different threads about global warming. It's good TWeb practice to focus in like this with a more limited thread.

Whatever problems people may think exist for weather records in the USA, most of the rest of the globe is not as well known. Fixing up errors in the USA record is not going to make much difference to global trends, since we are only speaking of 1.6% of the planet. However, the USA is very relevant as a kind of test case, because no matter what problems you might think we have with the USA, it has still got better information records than most other regions! If the US record is unreliable, then other regions are likely to be worse.

There is no region on Earth which can be regarded as "typical" for the whole planet. The planet as a whole is a combination of many diverse regions. Also, local regions like the USA or anywhere else will tend to show more year to year variation than global measurements, because a significant amount of localized variation is arises from how heat is being redistributed around the planet. Weather is driven by redistribution of energy, with energy from one part of the surface moving across to into others. Global trends are also 70% ocean, which shows less variation.

Here, however, just for comparison, is a plot of data for USA and global annual anomalies, as obtained by the NASA GISS climate group (http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/). Similar patterns show in other data from other groups. Any actual debate over global trends, or other regions, or over the causes of trends rather than their measurement, would be better in the other threads.
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What about you people who live down on the wrong half of the planet?:teeth:

Actually, I live up here. Trends up here are off topic, but come visit sometime, and drinks will be on me. :cheers:
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ramses
December 7th 2008, 05:40 PM
Just a quick note with some data I think is relevant to this discussion. If the charge that air-conditioners next to thermometers were significantly biasing the temperature records were true one would expect a significantly higher degree of warming in summer, rather than in winter. The attached image shows the global temperature anomalies from 1950 to 1999 and is generated from this web page: http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/seas_cycle.html

Note that for both hemispheres outside the tropics the warming is much greater in winter than in summer. Just what one would expect for a warming driven by greenhouse gases as far as I know. And just to make it clear, I'm not saying that air conditioners next to thermometers are a good idea, I'm not saying they don't affect the measurements of the particular sites affected by it, I'm only saying here that the data seems to indicate to me that the problem is adequately dealt with by todays climatologist. Both the data presented here and sylas' calculations of anomalies using only class 1 sites tells me that working climatologists know more about handling these issues than us debating it on tweb.

ramses

grmorton
December 7th 2008, 10:34 PM
As thread originator I am asking that this thread maintain a clear and tight focus on the continental USA land temperature record. Let's keep this thread focused, substantive, and civil.

Well, that last part rules me out. I will respond elsewhere because it seems that anytime I demand that someone pay attention to the actual data, I am considered to be uncivil. See the Global warming thread for my response.

shadowmaster
December 7th 2008, 11:00 PM
Well, that last part rules me out. I will respond elsewhere because it seems that anytime I demand that someone pay attention to the actual data, I am considered to be uncivil. See the Global warming thread for my response.

If Glenn makes a relevant post, the shadowmaster will volunteer to remove the pissyness and post it here. Just let him know where the pissy post appears.

grmorton
December 7th 2008, 11:07 PM
Just a quick note with some data I think is relevant to this discussion. If the charge that air-conditioners next to thermometers were significantly biasing the temperature records were true one would expect a significantly higher degree of warming in summer, rather than in winter. The attached image shows the global temperature anomalies from 1950 to 1999 and is generated from this web page: http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/seas_cycle.html

Note that for both hemispheres outside the tropics the warming is much greater in winter than in summer. Just what one would expect for a warming driven by greenhouse gases as far as I know. And just to make it clear, I'm not saying that air conditioners next to thermometers are a good idea, I'm not saying they don't affect the measurements of the particular sites affected by it, I'm only saying here that the data seems to indicate to me that the problem is adequately dealt with by todays climatologist. Both the data presented here and sylas' calculations of anomalies using only class 1 sites tells me that working climatologists know more about handling these issues than us debating it on tweb.

ramses


Interesting. I get a different picture from GISS's global climate at a glance
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/gcag/gcag1b.jsp

The bigger the dot, the larger the increase in temperature. It seems that the bigger dots are all onshore, which would substantiate my claim.

Or alternatively, maybe editing causes vast changes in past temperature between websites.

In general, I will reply over in Global warming. There is no need to have a new thread to discuss such a tiny area as land data only.

grmorton
December 7th 2008, 11:38 PM
If Glenn makes a relevant post, the shadowmaster will volunteer to remove the pissyness and post it here. Just let him know where the pissy post appears.

Nah, SM, I don't believe in being a caged animal with rule after rule to limit discussion to something so tiny as this. There is no doubt that I could not possibly be contained by a tiny area when other issues scream out for input. Science is about connections and feed back. To rule out any discussion of connections is to eviscerate science.

shadowmaster
December 8th 2008, 06:12 AM
Looking at the attached curves, it is difficult to see any real warming. Only by considering the data after 1970, and tossing out the data before it, does one imagine a warming trend. Fluctuations in the 1920s and 1930s are greater than any "warming trend".

So what is the shadowmaster missing?

lao tzu
December 8th 2008, 06:25 AM
Looking at the attached curves, it is difficult to see any real warming. Only by considering the data after 1970, and tossing out the data before it, does one imagine a warming trend. Fluctuations in the 1920s and 1930s are greater than any "warming trend".

So what is the shadowmaster missing?

If you're trying to find a trend on a scale smaller than the annual fluctuations, you'll have to do some data smoothing. Wouldn't the obvious place to start be a rolling average?

shadowmaster
December 8th 2008, 06:42 AM
If you're trying to find a trend on a scale smaller than the annual fluctuations, you'll have to do some data smoothing. Wouldn't the obvious place to start be a rolling average?

It's like students did back in college. Decide upon your conclusion and then chose an approach that supports that conclusion. Chose smoothing intervals, chose type of graph paper, chose data points. etc. Ignore cooling from 1940 to 1970 and just use 1970 onwards.

Before you know it -- :yipee: AGW.

Hmmmm.

grmorton
December 8th 2008, 07:52 AM
Looking at the attached curves, it is difficult to see any real warming. Only by considering the data after 1970, and tossing out the data before it, does one imagine a warming trend. Fluctuations in the 1920s and 1930s are greater than any "warming trend".

So what is the shadowmaster missing?

I keep noticing that with 1/3 more CO2 in the atmosphere in 2008 than there was in 1934, 1934 is still the hottest US year.As the CO2 increased, the temperature first cooled and then only after 1970 did CO2 kick in. What I can't figure out is why the temperature doesn't more closely match the Keelling Curve which is more or less a straight line up with a yearly small amp sinusoid superposed.

sylas
December 8th 2008, 08:42 AM
It's like students did back in college. Decide upon your conclusion and then chose an approach that supports that conclusion. Chose smoothing intervals, chose type of graph paper, chose data points. etc. Ignore cooling from 1940 to 1970 and just use 1970 onwards.

Before you know it -- :yipee: AGW.

It's nothing like that at all, in my opinion. It's not what I ever did in college, and it's not what is done here either. You can apply various statistical tools to a time series such as the mean USA anomaly, and done appropriately this helps you be more objective, not less. Some people do abuse statistics to defend a pre-conceived idea; and it's often possible to identify when a conclusion depends on arbitrary choices of things like intervals or filters.

If someone is serious about looking objectively at a time series with a view to identifying trends or changes in trends, careful use of statistical tools is the best way to be sure in your own mind that you are not just inventing spurious support.

Anyone is welcome to try their hand at some analysis of the series to pick up features and estimate their significance. I linked to an easy to read ASCII list of combined USA data in section 3 of the OP, and this is easily pasted into a spreadsheet to play with. Some folks here will be able to comment on such analysis on its own intrinsic statistical merits, without diverting into assumptions based on prior expectations.

The suggestion from sc_q_jayce of applying change point analysis is a very good one. I am pretty sure it has been done by someone; I know it has been done in Switzerland, and used to help locate significant points of localized change. I have started putting together a spreadsheet to try that here as well. It can be done both for the series and for trends in the series. It's worth doing, and I don't know what will result; but it looks to me that for the USA series, the early eighties will stand up rather better than 1970 as a point of significant change. Don't hold me to that; but eyeballing the graph is not a safe guide and a quick first run of a cumulative sum doesn't seem to show anything much special about 1970.

I'm guessing that the shadowmaster singles out 1970 here because I mentioned 1970 in another thread (though I might have been better to speak of the seventies). Just to clarify: that was not a comment on temperature curves, but rather about when different causes are dominant globally. Data on temperature doesn't tell you much about causes (though it can assist in a sanity check). The question of causes needs to be addressed by looking at data for forcings; and this is better considered in global warming threads, where I'm still involved.

The shadowmaster is certainly correct that the USA anomaly series has large year to year variation. Trends can be identified, but at a lower statistical significance than in the global series. This is not surprising or controversial. There is an upward trend apparent in the USA anomaly data from sometime late last century, but local trends in the USA or anywhere else are not representative of the entire planet, and not expected to be. I've not yet tried to calculate the significant of any putative trends in the USA.

Analysis of the temperature series is a bit beside the point if the series is full of errors. I was asked to take a closer look at some of the errors in weather station data, and how they are managed. I'm thinking of taking a close look at data for Titusville, the station pictured in the OP.

Cheers -- Sylas

themuzicman
December 8th 2008, 08:46 AM
Interesting. I get a different picture from GISS's global climate at a glance
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/gcag/gcag1b.jsp

The bigger the dot, the larger the increase in temperature. It seems that the bigger dots are all onshore, which would substantiate my claim.

Or alternatively, maybe editing causes vast changes in past temperature between websites.

In general, I will reply over in Global warming. There is no need to have a new thread to discuss such a tiny area as land data only.

Just an observation, but it seems that the greatest amount of warming occurs where there is [i]lower population denisty[i], the northeast part of North America, tropical Brazil, Africa, Australia and Russia.

Wouldn't one expect greater warming over the more populated and industrialized areas (say, the US midwest, east coast and south) of the world, if man-made global warming was the problem?

Michael

shadowmaster
December 8th 2008, 09:16 AM
I

If someone is serious about looking objectively at a time series with a view to identifying trends or changes in trends, careful use of statistical tools is the best way to be sure in your own mind that you are not just inventing spurious support.

Anyone is welcome to try their hand at some analysis of the series to pick up features and estimate their significance. I linked to an easy to read ASCII list of combined USA data in section 3 of the OP, and this is easily pasted into a spreadsheet to play with. Some folks here will be able to comment on such analysis on its own intrinsic statistical merits, without diverting into assumptions based on prior expectations.

Since the Shadowmaster must have defective eyeballs as well, he got nursey to do just that for 1940-1970. It is attached. Son of gun, it shows cooling of 0.4 degrees. Nursey already knows that Shadowmaster's eyes are not defective.

heh heh heh

sc_q_jayce
December 8th 2008, 09:24 AM
Seriously, has anyone employed change point analysis to the data?

shadowmaster
December 8th 2008, 09:38 AM
Seriously, has anyone employed change point analysis to the data?

He who suggests it, gets to do it.

If for no other reason than he clearly knows how.

sylas
December 8th 2008, 09:40 AM
Just an observation, but it seems that the greatest amount of warming occurs where there is [i]lower population denisty[i], the northeast part of North America, tropical Brazil, Africa, Australia and Russia.

Wouldn't one expect greater warming over the more populated and industrialized areas (say, the US midwest, east coast and south) of the world, if man-made global warming was the problem?

Michael

I was asked to address questions of accuracy of temperature measurement in the USA, and this thread is intended as a place where problems of temperature measurement can be a focus.

The short answer to your question is "no". That's a bit inadequate, but I don't want to let this thread become yet another attempt to cover every aspect of the global warming issue. I'd like to try having this thread being more tightly focused on one problem that has appeared repeatedly in other threads... issues with measurement and error in the US land temperature record. I think it this will help; and it doesn't prevent discussion of all kinds of other issues and concerns since we still have a whole forum available.

The major active thread on global warming is: Global warming. I am still active there. That thread is by now very long and fragmented, so it would IMO also be quite in order to consider a new thread for your question. In either case, if you take your question to the existing thread or a new one in Nat Sci 301, you'll certainly get some engagement. Briefly, it is not an expectation of climatology, or AGW, or atmospheric dynamics, that anthropogenic factors should remain concentrated in regions of human density. If people think it should be an expectation, then by all means bring it up, but in another thread please.

Thanks -- Sylas

themuzicman
December 8th 2008, 09:41 AM
My apologies, Sylas.

sc_q_jayce
December 8th 2008, 09:50 AM
Shadowmaster, I would, if I was given the raw data and was at home to employ my self-written CUSUM method. Just curious if anyone employed Bayesian CPA methods, which is more robust. I don't got the computing power to do otherwise than simple Change point analyses.

sylas
December 8th 2008, 11:44 AM
Since the Shadowmaster must have defective eyeballs as well, he got nursey to do just that for 1940-1970. It is attached. Son of gun, it shows cooling of 0.4 degrees. Nursey already knows that Shadowmaster's eyes are not defective.


I don't quite get what this is about. I don't think we have any disagreement over slopes in the timeseries. The point about eyes is not about being defective, but whether or not they can give good objective statistics. Your eye would no doubt suggest to you that there is a negative (cooling) trend in the USA anomaly from 1940 to 1970, and your eye would be correct... but to be sure, you should still check more objectively by applying regression, as you have done, to find the regression slope is -1.36 C/century; or -0.41 C over the range 1940 to 1970.

You won't get the -0.4 from your eyes, even if you can drag them away from that nurse... :wink: You should calculate it, and the calculation is objective, in the sense that I or others can reproduce it. You can also get a confidence limits on the slope, which is an important statistical measure of its significance. In this case, the 95% confidence limits are -0.76 .. -2.60. That's a big range, meaning that we can't be confident of the precise slope; but at least we can be confident of a real cooling trend. The wide confidence limits are a consequence of the large variations from year to year than you noted originally.

What remains subjective is the choice of the range 1940 to 1970. If you have some prior reason for being interested in those numbers, then sure; you've got a good significant measure of the trend over that period. But what if I pick 1950 to 1980? The cooling trend is still about the same: 95% confidence limits of -0.59 .. -2.57.

How about 1960..1990? Now the 95% confidence limits on slope are 0.17 .. 2.35. It's a warming trend. Or going back in time; 1910-1940 shows warming to good significance (0.48 .. 3.59). But 1920-1950 shows no significant trend up or down. The 95% confidence limits are -1.73 .. 1.22

There are various methods that could be applied to help give some kind of objective identification of where there's a change in a trend for a series like this. I'm not really up on that off the top of my head; you probably know better than I do… and sc_q_jayce could probably tell how change point analysis would apply. I'd have to hit the books first.

As for what causes trends, or how we can tell, and with what confidence… we'll no doubt continue that in the other thread. Temperature data won't tell you.

Cheers -- Sylas

Sparko
December 8th 2008, 12:28 PM
Global warming is caused by cow farts. If we ate more steaks the temperature would go down. :yes:

shadowmaster
December 8th 2008, 01:25 PM
I don't quite get what this is about. I don't think we have any disagreement over slopes in the timeseries. The point about eyes is not about being defective, but whether or not they can give good objective statistics. Your eye would no doubt suggest to you that there is a negative (cooling) trend in the USA anomaly from 1940 to 1970, and your eye would be correct... but to be sure, you should still check more objectively by applying regression, as you have done, to find the regression slope is -1.36 C/century; or -0.41 C over the range 1940 to 1970.

The Shadowmaster just prints it out and draws a best straight line (like in the olden days). It works quite well.




You won't get the -0.4 from your eyes, even if you can drag them away from that nurse... :wink: You should calculate it, and the calculation is objective, in the sense that I or others can reproduce it. You can also get a confidence limits on the slope, which is an important statistical measure of its significance. In this case, the 95% confidence limits are -0.76 .. -2.60. That's a big range, meaning that we can't be confident of the precise slope; but at least we can be confident of a real cooling trend. The wide confidence limits are a consequence of the large variations from year to year than you noted originally.

What remains subjective is the choice of the range 1940 to 1970. If you have some prior reason for being interested in those numbers, then sure; you've got a good significant measure of the trend over that period. But what if I pick 1950 to 1980? The cooling trend is still about the same: 95% confidence limits of -0.59 .. -2.57.

The Shadowmaster chose 1940-1970 for the same reason that you chose 1970 - 2008. You saw a trend that supported your contention (or others did it for you since those numbers pop up a lot). The Shadowmaster felt that it is intentionally ignoring conflicting data that preceded 1970. Analysis agrees with that. opinion


As for what causes trends, or how we can tell, and with what confidence… we'll no doubt continue that in the other thread. Temperature data won't tell you.

Cheers -- Sylas

Nor will the sloppy theories (with unsupported models) and data presented so far.

As "science", this area of climatology really sucks, Sylas. It is the same old "science by consensus" as the Shadowmaster illustrated in the design of NAVY radars by "experts". They focused on physical theory and didn't bother to support it with real data, explicit models and an understanding of complex feedback systems.


.

ramses
December 8th 2008, 06:55 PM
Interesting. I get a different picture from GISS's global climate at a glance
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/gcag/gcag1b.jsp

The bigger the dot, the larger the increase in temperature. It seems that the bigger dots are all onshore, which would substantiate my claim.

Or alternatively, maybe editing causes vast changes in past temperature between websites.

In general, I will reply over in Global warming. There is no need to have a new thread to discuss such a tiny area as land data only.

This is a case of comparing apples to oranges. My map shows zonal mean anomalies vs. month, not the anomaly for a specific location like yours. Column 1 in my map shows the mean anomaly for varying latitudes for the month of January, column 2 for the month of February and so on. The time period is from 1950 to 1999. It clearly shows that warming is much stronger in the winter months for both the northern and southern hemisphere, completely opposite of what one would expect if air conditioners and cement were a significant factor.

Btw, If I can find similar data for the US only I will post that later.

ramses