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Christianbookworm
09-27-2016, 01:39 PM
With the theory that miracles don't involve breaking the laws of physics and instead rely on God having all knowledge and power to do as He sees fit, how could the various miracles have been done?

e.g. raising the dead(essentially resuscitating someone from brain death and maybe decomposition)- first, the decomposition would need to be repaired/reversed, the cause of death would need to be dealt with, repair and restart the brain and other vital organs. All this in less than a second, which is not a problem for God.

healing the man born blind- fix whatever is keeping him from being able to see, rewire his occipital lobe/visual cortex to be able to process the information

So, if we developed nanosurgery, could we heal disabilities and reverse brain death?

Bisto
09-27-2016, 01:57 PM
The only thing I'm clear is that even if centuries from now we can do all this and more, we won't have something quite like a 'transphysical' resurrection body this side of death :)

Christianbookworm
09-27-2016, 02:05 PM
The only thing I'm clear is that even if centuries from now we can do all this and more, we won't have something quite like a 'transphysical' resurrection body this side of death :)

Of course not! That and the initial creation of the universe are not covered by the laws of physics. How else was Jesus able to appear in locked rooms?

Kbertsche
09-27-2016, 03:10 PM
With the theory that miracles don't involve breaking the laws of physics and instead rely on God having all knowledge and power to do as He sees fit, how could the various miracles have been done?

FYI, I don't think it is helpful to think of miracles as "breaking" natural laws. This language implies that natural laws run autonomously, and that the universe is a kind of "clock" or "machine" that is able to run on its own, apart from divine providence.

I think it's more biblical to view "natural law" as God's normal way of running His universe, and "miracle" as an occasional, unusual way in which God runs His universe. God is just as much in charge of "natural" events as He is of miracles.

Christianbookworm
09-27-2016, 04:41 PM
FYI, I don't think it is helpful to think of miracles as "breaking" natural laws. This language implies that natural laws run autonomously, and that the universe is a kind of "clock" or "machine" that is able to run on its own, apart from divine providence.

I think it's more biblical to view "natural law" as God's normal way of running His universe, and "miracle" as an occasional, unusual way in which God runs His universe. God is just as much in charge of "natural" events as He is of miracles.

I didn't claim that miracles broke the laws of physics. Though I would like to know why some would think it would be a miracle if God picked up a box versus if we did the same task. And why is nanotechnology seen as a bad thing by some Christians? I think it sounds cool. Of course, any technology can be used for good or for evil, and we humans seem to have a tendency to focus on one extreme...

Bisto
10-01-2016, 11:07 AM
Of course not! That and the initial creation of the universe are not covered by the laws of physics. How else was Jesus able to appear in locked rooms?

Employing whatever techno-babble Marvel uses to justify Vision walking through walls.

18889

:outtie:

Christianbookworm
04-02-2019, 03:40 PM
I figured that Jesus teleported or something. Now, why the two on the road to Emmaus didn't recognize Jesus... well they sure weren't expecting to see Him! I am curious as to how the glorified body would look like on a cellular level. I guess the cells would be indestructible and immortal? I might be a nerd.

tabibito
04-03-2019, 02:08 AM
I figured that Jesus teleported or something. Now, why the two on the road to Emmaus didn't recognize Jesus... well they sure weren't expecting to see Him! I am curious as to how the glorified body would look like on a cellular level. I guess the cells would be indestructible and immortal? I might be a nerd.

With the first comment I agree: it is the most logical explanation.
The second comment is answered by the Bible:
(v16)
οι δε οφθαλμοι αυτων εκρατουντο του μη επιγνωναι αυτον
the - but -eyes - of them - got restrained - of the - not - to recognise - him
(v31)
αυτων δε διηνοιχθησαν οι οφθαλμοι και επεγνωσαν αυτον
of them - but - got opened - the - eyes - and - they knew - him

Nothing was different about Jesus - it was their own capacity to recognise him that was impaired.

As to the third: so 'tis written: 1 Cor 15:42 This is how it will be at the resurrection of the dead. What is planted is decaying, what is raised cannot decay. 43 The body is planted in a state of dishonor but is raised in a state of splendor. It is planted in weakness but is raised in power. 44 It is planted a physical* body but is raised a spiritual* body. If there is a physical* body, there is also a spiritual* body. ISV
[* a body motivated and controlled either by the spirit or by the soul (translated as: physical) as applicable ... this doesn't refer to the physical composition of the body.]

Christianbookworm
04-03-2019, 03:44 AM
I knew that already! I'm referring to the nerdy details that no one else would care about. Like how and why they were kept from recognizing Jesus.

tabibito
04-03-2019, 04:28 AM
I knew that already! I'm referring to the nerdy details that no one else would care about. Like how and why they were kept from recognizing Jesus.

Associative agnosia: a failure in recognition despite no deficit in perception.

Sparko
04-03-2019, 06:32 AM
Obviously Jesus wore glasses so he wouldn't be recognized.

:outtie:

rogue06
04-03-2019, 07:14 AM
I knew that already! I'm referring to the nerdy details that no one else would care about. Like how and why they were kept from recognizing Jesus.
Keep in mind that Jewish men of Jesus' day (and throughout most of history it seems) were typically bearded but after death they would have had all of their hair shaved off in preparation for burial. It could simply be that they didn't at first recognize him beardless. There are numerous websites showing just how different a man can look with and without a beard (The Daily Mail even ran an article on it (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4943812/Men-look-unrecognisable-shaving-beards.html)).

mossrose
04-03-2019, 07:21 AM
I knew that already! I'm referring to the nerdy details that no one else would care about. Like how and why they were kept from recognizing Jesus.


Because He didn't want them to recognize Him until He decided it was time. He was explaining the scriptures about Himself (all OT, btw), so they would get who He is and the significance of His life, death and resurrection.

Also none of the disciples really believed that Christ would be resurrected after His death. Even though He told them umpteen times and they had just seen Lazarus raised.

Christianbookworm
04-04-2019, 05:57 AM
Obviously Jesus wore glasses so he wouldn't be recognized.

:outtie:

Jesus doesn't need glasses to pull of that trick! Though, I'm sure He had a good reason to not stick around and go back home from His short term mission trip.

Rushing Jaws
05-04-2020, 08:32 PM
With the theory that miracles don't involve breaking the laws of physics and instead rely on God having all knowledge and power to do as He sees fit, how could the various miracles have been done?

e.g. raising the dead(essentially resuscitating someone from brain death and maybe decomposition)- first, the decomposition would need to be repaired/reversed, the cause of death would need to be dealt with, repair and restart the brain and other vital organs. All this in less than a second, which is not a problem for God.

healing the man born blind- fix whatever is keeping him from being able to see, rewire his occipital lobe/visual cortex to be able to process the information

So, if we developed nanosurgery, could we heal disabilities and reverse brain death?
Those would not be miracles.

They would be applications, of natural processes accessible to man, within human power to operate as human being judged fit.

That X is remarkable or marvellous, does not in the least mean that it is a miracle.

A miracle:
is outwith the capacities of anything in the natural order, or of the natural order as a whole
is inaccessible to the power of anything within the natural order
is not within the power of anything in the natural order to command or initiate
has God alone for its Author, so that it depends solely on God’s Wisdom, Power, and Goodness as its originating, formal, & first cause.

Miracles can be performed by means secondary AKA instrumental causes, so human beings can be God’s instruments in the doing of them; but they cannot do miracles by any power native to them, as the initiating causes of them. To perform miracles is a charism, in technical terminology, a “grace freely given”. That is, it is not a necessary adornment of the Christian life: which is itself a wholly gratuitous gift of God, Who gives as He wills.

Raising the dead is not resuscitation. Coastguards and paramedics resuscitate people. Raising the dead is totally impossible, because absolutely beyond the capacity of any created cause. Once the body is dead, it is dead, and no power on Earth can make it otherwise. To raise the dead is impossible to mere creatures, because none of them is God, the Author of life - therefore, God alone can do it. Like all miracles, such an act is purely super-natural, relying on and deriving from nothing in created nature.

Rushing Jaws
05-08-2020, 02:39 AM
I figured that Jesus teleported or something. Now, why the two on the road to Emmaus didn't recognize Jesus... well they sure weren't expecting to see Him! I am curious as to how the glorified body would look like on a cellular level. I guess the cells would be indestructible and immortal? I might be a nerd.
IMO, the post-Resurrection Appearances show space relating to Jesus in a new way - *not* Jesus relating to space - as anticipations of the Ascension.

Would the Glorified Body of Christ be cellular at all ? I think not. I think such things belong to the “state of humiliation” in this world, a state “normal” to all men, in which the Word Incarnate deigned to share.

I think cells are a temporary makeshift, that will form no part of the glorified bodies of the Blessed after the Resurrection. Cells, and electrons (& other sub-atomic particles), are what our (corruptible) bodies are made of - not what those bodies are. When the Blessed “put on incorruption” & “death is swallowed up in victory”, their mortal bodies will be transfigured, for Christ will be fully formed in all the Blessed, and all things will be made new. I think cells, etc., belong to this age - not to that which is coming.

STM the Glorified Body of Christ is too “heavy”, has too much *kabodh*/*doxa*/glory, to fit the world man lives in; it is “too Real”. The disciples were, and we are, ghosts by comparison. I know C. S. makes frequent use of this idea, but IMHO he was “on to something”. Perhaps talk of Christ “Ascending” uses this-worldly, this-agely, human - but God-breathed - “ghost talk” to convey what human words have no means of describing, because the Ascension belongs in essence to God’s Reality, not to the “sub-created” reality we live in.
And perhaps the same applies to the Resurrection Body of Christ, as compared with the lowly bodies of mortal men.

I think cells are what bodies have, that have yet to be perfectly conformed to the Glorified, Renewed, Sacred Humanity of the Resurrected and Ascended Christ. Which would suggest that extra-ordinary graces such as: bilocation, knowledge of men’s hearts, multiplication of food, raising the dead, walking on water, etc., are anticipations, in this mortal, unglorified body, of the conditions of the age to come.

Christianbookworm
05-08-2020, 03:10 AM
Uhh... that sounds like claiming matter is bad. It isn't. Have you read Randy Alcorn's book called Heaven?

Rushing Jaws
08-03-2020, 07:37 PM
Uhh... that sounds like claiming matter is bad. It isn't. Have you read Randy Alcorn's book called Heaven?
I’ve heard of the author, but not of the book.

How does anything I said imply that matter is bad ? 😎🤔😵🤯😩😤