OT Law

[markporter]

OK, so what's the theological reasoning behind us no longer having to keep half the laws written in the OT? Is it 'cos they were culture-specific? Is it 'cos they were somehow pointing forward to Christ?

[Menachem]

The theological reasoning from my point of view is this. That since you are a gentile you were never bound by Jewish Law in the first place. Only Jews are bound by Jewish Law. I myself am bound by Jewish Law because im a Jew :joy: . Gentiles are only under the Noachide covenant which contain seven laws prohibitions against adultry, idolatry, murder, stealing, and a few others. here is a link to the seven Noachide laws for gentiles. :deal:
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/noahide.html.

hope this helps out in your reasoning

[markporter]

Thanks, so would you affirm then that the OT laws are still applicable to Jews or Messianic Jews?

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi!

Markporter, Judaism most definitely does NOT believe that it's "our way or the highway to hell" (i.e. We don't believe that all non-Jews will necessarily go to hell). Our Sages say that, "The righteous of all nations have a share in the world-to-come." We believe that whereas there are 613 precepts/commandments in the Torah (Genesis to Deuteronomy; our most basic scripture) that are incumbent/binding on Jews, there are only 7 that are binding on non-Jews. Using the traditional methods of Jewish Biblical exegesis, our Sages infer these 7 precepts from Genesis 9:1-17 & believe that God gave them to Noah & his sons. Since Noah & sons were not Jewish, we refer to these 7 precepts as the 7 Noahide Precepts. The 7 are: 1) To establish courts of justice; 2) No blasphemy; 3) No idolatry; 4) No incest/adultery; 5) Do not shed blood; 6) Do not steal & 7) Do not cut meat from a living animal. "Bnai Noach" means "Children of Noah" in Hebrew and refers to those non-Jews who abide by the 7 precepts. See http://www.noach.com/links.html for some interesting links.

See http://www.jewfaq.org/gentiles.htm for a good introductory read.

Be well!

ssv :hi:

[Menachem]

I would have to say that Jewish law is binding to all Jews all of the time, though not all Laws apply to all Jews at every point in time, but they are binding nonetheless. For example i cannot complete the mitzvot for a woman on her period because well im not a woman. Various others applied at certain points in time but dont apply today such as temple practices since there is no temple. Gentiles only have seven laws to follow according to Bn'i Noach but they can choose to follow jesus either way is a valid path to G-d for the gentiles. Messianic Jews it would depend, since most of the "messianic" Jews were not born Jewish nor did they convert at some time. Those who are Jews by their birth and became a christian the Torah still applies to them and it is their duty to come back to G-d by repenting and observing Torah. the rest of the "messianic" Jews are gentiles and can just follow jesus if they want to or they could follow Bn'i Noach. A gentile could even become a moslem and still have a valid path to G-d no matter what path you choose as a gentile it is valid but if a Jew chooses to go astray and after other gods then he becomes an apostate and is excluded from the covenant according to the Torah.

[markporter]

hmmm, thanks guys, that's interesting.

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Markporter posted:


hmmm, thanks guys, that's interesting.

You're welcome! We do try our best!

Be well!

ssv :hi:

[Solly]

10-21-2003 @ 01:33 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=250995#post250995)
markporter:

OK, so what's the theological reasoning behind us no longer having to keep half the laws written in the OT? Is it 'cos they were culture-specific? Is it 'cos they were somehow pointing forward to Christ?

Mark, what do you mean "half the laws"?

The Sinai covenant must be seen for what it is under various guises.

First of all, it is a covenant law made between God and the hebrews after they came out of Egypt. God said he would be their God, and they would be his people, and these where the terms under which that relationship would continue.
As Paul and Peter both pointed out, no one ever kept that covenant, from the jewish side; that is why they got their butts kicked in the time of the Judges, that is why they eventually were sent into exile. God promised also that he would institute a new covenant; once the people had seen that their was no hope for them in their behaviour, they would see that only the one sided covenant of God transforming them would work.

Secondly, as Moses also makes mention of in Dt 7 & 9, the Hebrews, later the Jews, were nothing special. God didn't chose them for anything in themselves, but for his own purposes. Part of that purpose was to be a light to the world. How? By showing not only the condition we are in as sinners and rebels before God - something the Jews were particularly good at, see above; but also that the best we can do, via the Law, just isn't good enough, and never will be. More is needed, and only God can supply that more, through the New Covenant, instituted by Christ, who undertook to make amends for the sins of his people - spiritual people that is - and bring in a righteousness that would stand God's test, and avert judgment.

That being said, there is no need for us to keep any - *audible gasp from covenantal presbyterians* - of the Sinaitic provisions, since we are saved by grace not law-keeping. Are we without law? No, but under law to Christ; the Spirit works in us, fulfilling the New Covenant provision that we would be responsive to God's will from the heart, not just the lips.

As Eli pointed out above, the sinaitic covenantal law was specifically for the Jews, until the new was brought in. But it is typical of the situation we are all under, that we should love worship and obey God. Therefore Paul can say in Romans 3.19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to themwho are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world become guilty before God.

As far as "Messianic Jews" so-called, Baruch Maoz, pastor of Grace and Truth Congregation in LeTsion Rishon, Israel, has written a book showing how they have been duped by concern for cultural aspects of their Jewish backgrounds, to take back on board those very things Eli speaks of above, ie Religion.

We are saved by grace; nothing we did will change that, nothing we do will change that, whether it be good or bad. The evidence of our salvation is conformity to God's righteousness however, faith with works as James points out, and as Paul makes much mention of in Ch 6 of Romans. Sanctification follows on immediately from justification.

[markporter]

Mark, what do you mean "half the laws"?

I suppose the point was really about how we are to distinguish moral laws which we should obviously try to keep with those laws that are not so essential and were written down for other purposes.

[Solly]

Yes, I figured that was your point Mark. Those we "should try to keep" are taken over into the NT, whereas those that were specific to israel as a land in the ANE with a job to do, are either ignored, or "spiritualised" cf Paul's comments about Ox treading corn and Minsters, and principles of applying OT texts.

It is more to the point that we are not called to "keep" those laws, though some of them are what Christians are expected to do: but notice how Paul always ground practical behaviour in doctrine about what God has done, esp in Christ. he doesn't just say, "Thou shalt" - that is where we went wrong in the first place: the commanding law came in and sin abounded. that is why legalism is such a scourge, because it is contrary to the spirit of Christ; esp when it majors on moralism and related issues such as drinking, clothes, entertainment, etc. The NT gives clear guidelines and priniciples about how to do these things, and rarely says "Thou shalt not". And even it's "Thou shalt nots" have a raison d'etre rather than just divine command.

Too close a union with Israel's covenant specific laws and the church leads to Theonomy in its various guises, and too great a concentration of the "cultural mandate", rather than separation, which is strangely what the Sinaitic covenant laws were about anyway. thus Calvin and Servetus; thus Luther and the Anabaptists and Peasant's Revolt; thus Augustine and compelling them to come in, literally; thus the Presbyterian's and persecution of Baptists and Quakers in New England, etc etc etc.

[Menachem]

Everyone keep in mind that Jewish Law was never meant for gentiles :chat: . For a gentile to say the Torah has ended is like me saying to a muslim "havent you heard that muhammed's message is done away with with the coming of the very last prophet Ali Baba(made up name no pun intended) :egad: . they would laugh then snicker and say that i was a non muslim trying to say that muhammed's word was done away with. :bonk:

Of course the Torah could have been applicable to the first century jewish christians who are all gone now and the only thing left is Pauline christianity composed of gentiles to whom the Torah is not applicable. The Torah is not meant for separation it is meant to give us a sense of community and closeness to G-d because he chose to give the Torah to us at Sinai and told us to obey its laws and precepts, well thats exactly what we do the fact that Jews arent always up to par in keeping some fo the Laws may be for health reasons, being elderly or having a disease like diabetes. the point is that no matter if we cant keep our end of the bargain all of the time G-d has said countless times in teh whole Tanakh that he will not break the covenant even though we(The Jews) do sometimes.

[Solly]

That, of course, is where we would part company Eli. While it is true that the Word of God endures forever, yet the community to which that specific part of it was given no longer exists, for a new community was established, on a better covenant, and better promises.
The argument of the NT is that the Law could never maintain that relationship, because it actually stirred up what was contrary to it: rebellion, idolatry, apostasy, sin, etc. "What other nation changed their gods?"
As a specific covenant provision the Sinaitic law does not have anything to do with Gentiles; however, as an exemplar, as a light in the darkness of sin, it shows what we, the Gentiles, are like through the example of Israel: all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. If they couldn't be right, what chance do we have.
Of course, that has been changed somewhat in the modern Jewish mind; now it is do your best, ask forgiveness for the rest, and it will be alright on the night; nominal Christianity is no different. However, there are clearly sins recorded in the Torah for which there is no forgiveness, only ostracism at best, and death at worst. The sacrifices did not cover capital crimes, for instance. For the Christian, the saying "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" is very accurate. Our best just isn't good enough. Paul knew this when the commandment came, and though he considered himself a Pharisee of the Pharisees, blameless in the law, a Hebrew of the Hebrews, yet when the commandment "Thou shalt no covet" arrived in his heart and conscience with power, he knew he was done for under the law. Christians do not speak of a "you do a bit, and God will do a bit" salvation - well, some do, but that isn't the Gospel. The Gospel says, realise you are a sinner; realise you cannot do anything about it; realise you don't want to do anything about it; lay down your arms and surrender to God's grace: God has done it all in Christ Jesus - paid the price for our sins as the final once for all substitutionary sacrifice (OT sacrifices were only substitutionary remember; you deserved to die, not the animal); and the Messiah King who will rule and reign in and amongst his people, saving them from their sins.

[Menachem]

Sacrifices were only for unintentional sins, Teshuvah is the method of getting rid of the "capital" crimes you are referring to. This was laid out in the book of Leviticus and by the prophets.

The argument is this that the Torah shows that the GNT is not a better way nor is it a way for Jews. The Torah prohibits going astray no matter who promises what, the prophets taught that and it is also taught in the Torah. I could go make the same promises to the jewish people and get nowhere just as jesus did. Turn to G-d and turn to G-d's Torah for guidence is what it we do as Jews. of course some are suseptible to such advances and so they are lost but those of us who stay are Faithful to G-d and G-d alone.

Actually the community does still exist by way of its descendants who are the Jewish people. A better covenant??? Even in the New covenant prophecy of Jeremiah mentions noting about changing the convenant which was circumcision and adherence to Torah. I will put My Torah (hebrew: Torahti) in their innermost being and write it on their hearts. The Hebrew of that prophecy shows that the covenant is the Torah not in their mouths as it was originally, but in their hearts and to not teach one another to know G-d for knowledge of G-d will be universal, not a different covenant for Gentiles and Jew but the ingathered Jewish population of the world those who were in the kingdom of Israel and those who were in the kingdom of Judah. The better covenant and the better promises stuff is Pauline Christian theology. Laid out by the author of the letter to the hebrews who was more than likely a Pauline convert. And such by Pauline theology is not Jewish by any means.

Since I mentioned that prophecy and its components, why do we still tell each other to know G-d, proclamation is a method of telling your fellow man to know G-d. Also, the knowledge of G-d is not universal if we dont have to teach each other to know G-d then knowledge is universal, but that is not the case since the prophecy has not been fulfilled.

A human sacrifice??? Torah prohibits such sacrifices it is an abhorration to Jews. The Idolatry you speak of is the case all of the time christians Idolize a man and sometimes the crucifix,catholics with saints, and the virgin mary Jews are sometimes attracted and led astray to other faiths and then they start to Idolize something in the faith because everyone else is doing it. what do Jews who stay true to G-d Idolize, even today "nothing." No, Jews do not worship the Torah they read from the Torah and worship G-d. Rebellion, against whom, the Romans, the Greeks. Of, course you are going to say G-d all christians do. The truth is that from what i have seen that going astry does not constitute rebellion, nor Idolatry since they are independantly defined and given independant punishments. Sin is a consequence we all have to live with, it wouldnt matter if G-d told us what to do or not we will still sin. even your so called grace is no excuse for murder, idolatry, stealing, having other gods before G-d, not keeping Shabbat.....etc. of course since you are a gentile you are not bound by Jewish Law so all argument you pose for your "grace" and ending of the observance of Torah holds no water....

If you wish to continue to discuss this i would suggest moving to a forum that allows debate to comply with forum policy. I am not trying to debate just post my view and explanations from the Jewish perspective about your post.

[Solly]

Thanks, but not at the moment Eli; I was only seeking to answer mark's question with the Christian angle, since the only response he had was jewish.

[Menachem]

Its ok i understand