When is Divorce OK?

[elysian]

Just trolling for some insight and objective opinions.

I am very unhappily married to a non-Christian. He is a drunkard, a compulsive gambler and is verbally, emotionally and financially abusive. His only positive attribute is that he is employed, so he mooches less than if he didn't have a job. Yes I am aware of the prohibitions against unequally yoked marriages. The sad part of this is that I married him at a time in which I was very cynical about God and quite frankly was living in extreme disobedience. So the "Catholic guilt demon" (I was raised Roman Catholic but converted to Lutheranism in high school... another story altogether) in me says, "I guess this is part of my punishment for being disobedient and I should just endure whatever because it was caused by my own stupidity." The confessional Lutheran in me says "you are saved and justified by grace and no amount of suffering will earn you brownie points before God."

Anyway, there are only two Scripturally correct options that I see. Because my husband thoroughly enjoys making me miserable and derives great joy from keeping me awake at all hours by playing loud music and partying with buddies, by demanding that I fix him food in the middle of the night, in cutting me off from my family, and friends and especially making it hard for me to be involved in my church, he won't leave me. So the following applies to me: "And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him." 1 Corinthians 7:13 (NIV)

I understand if he left me then it would be OK for me to divorce him and start again without it being sin: "But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace." 1 Corinthians 7:15 (NIV)

But he is quite fine with things the way they are, with me as his whipping post and personal servant.

I also feel compelled to stay based on:
1 Corinthians 7:17 (NIV) "Nevertheless, each one should retain the place in life that the Lord assigned to him and to which God has called him."

Malachi 2:16 (NIV) "I hate divorce," says the LORD God of Israel, "and I hate a man's covering himself with violence as well as with his garment," says the LORD Almighty. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith."

I know that in some ways I could justify leaving him without divorcing him which would mean a compulsory life of celibacy (which is pretty much the case as it is now because he's darn near impotent from all the booze) and I would still have to deal with him concerning our son which would be difficult.

1 Corinthians 7:11 (NIV) "To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife."

So does anyone have any suggestions/alternatives besides just maintaining the status quo or simply leaving him without divorce?
And BTW he is 46 (12 years older than me) but is in remarkably good health for as much as he drinks and smokes. I am the one with all the chronic illnesses (severe hypertension, degenerative joint disease, cardiac arrythmia) He will most certainly outlive me - if only for spite. So I doubt if I will have the comfort of "quiet golden years."

[Queen]

I am very unhappily married to a non-Christian. He is a drunkard, a compulsive gambler and is verbally, emotionally and financially abusive.

Get the heck out of that marriage NOW!!!! Don't feel guilty about it. This is not how a marriage should be. He is totally wrong.......

I was in an abusive relationship that ended with rape....Don't let it get that far!!!!!

Please, be safe!!

Lots of love, strenght and sunshine,
Queen

[elysian]

As far as I can discern Scripture gives NO allowance for abuse, although our culture does. I've already heard all the psychological rationalizations for leaving but the bottom line is that it is not justification under God's law. He is not physical in his abuse just as I said mental, emotional and financial.

However even if the abuse were physical, short of killing me, I am still bound to him and divorce would be sin. If he kills me, the sin is on his head, not mine. Sometimes I wish he would do exactly that and just get it over with- but he's having way too much fun.

[Queen]

Gosh, Hon.....Don't beat yourself up like this. Emotional abuse can be as horrific or even more terrible as physical abuse. Why would God think it is a sin when you safe your own life? I can't imagine that God meant you to be in such a situation.......That is so cruel...

I wish you would stand up for yourself. You are so worth being loved and respected...You are an unique and beautiful human being. Don't put yourself down like this. Don't take all this on your shoulder. You are so NOT sinning for leaving this marriage.....this is NOT a marriage it is a prison and you are innocent and deserve to be set free. I wish I could make you see that....

Lots of love and sunshine, sweet brave woman,
Queen

[themuzicman]

From a Christian perspective....

If your husband leaves you, you can let him go. Otherwise, you're stuck in the marriage.

However, I've never believed that a woman should remain in a situation where she is being significantly and intentionally harmed on an ongoing basis, and I think there is room for separation and ultimatum.

First, understand that this is NOT punishment from God. You might call it a consequence of your decisions, but it's still not from GOd.

Second, if you can arrange to live somewhere long term (relatives, or via supporting yourself), I would inform your husband what you expect from him in terms of respect and honoring you, and that before you will return to him, he has to seek counseling both for himself to deal with his issues, and for the marriage, to repair the damage that has been done.

And stay away until he really changes.

Chances are one of two things will happen:

1) He divorces you. Biblically, you let him go.

2) He decides that he wants you back, and fulfills your requirements.

He could go on without you, but that would be similar to him leaving you, anyway.

And then the onus is on him to act.

Just MHO, but it's an option.

Michael

[beeblebrox]

So sorry to hear about your situation. I think that your husband had already broken the marriage contract by not adhering to the vows. If I was Christian, I would say that in God's eyes he (your husband) has already divorced you but is keeping you around as mere property convenient to his habits. He has breached the contract. Your marriage is already null and void. Only the paperwork remains. You should not spend 30-40 years more being abused and unhappy.

Get out as fast as you can! You deserve better!

beeble

[themuzicman]

IT's sad to see marriage reduced to a contract status. Vows used to be something you kept because you made it, regardless of what the other side does.

That's what marriage used to be.

Michael

[Jaltus]

I believe the intent from the outset of this thread was for a BIBLICAL CHRISTIAN RESPONSE, and while I am sure elysian appreciates all of the input from nonChristians, she did ask for only Christian options.

Elysian, I would recommend separation from your husband. The NIV of I Corinthians 7:11 is not totally accurate, as the passage says "if she does leave..." implying a separation that is permanent since women could not divorce in that culture. In your case, I believe that setting some ground rules and leaving him with the chance for remarriage is the way to go.

There is nothing in the Bible that says a wife must serve her husband, she just must obey his headship. This issue with your hubby goes well beyond that.

[Spokoina]

well my two cents:

He has already left the marriage. He aint a husband to you in anyway,shape or form. OK? He HAS left the marriage.

Marriage is NOT two people under one roof with the legal paper. Marriage is the commitment to honor and cherish another..albeit we do that imperfectly. He doesn't sound like he is even trying to to that..thus he HAS left the marriage as God defines it.


And if you really stood as a woman, and not tolerate things in your home, as keeper of the home, in a nice firm loving manner, like no booze thank you, he would show the fact that he does not love you as much as his booze drinking buddies and door mats. And he would indeed show you that his heart is not in that marriage anyways.

my two cents.

[dizzle]

I need to find an article I saw on this..... someone kick me if I don't post it. Just for a bit of different perspective.

[dizzle]

My memory served me wrong, the article dealt more with issues of what exactly is adultery... I am posting it in case it is helpful to anyone, it is by Doug Wilson and found at www.credenda.org


An important part of our Christian responsibility is the prevention of divorce. God hates divorce, and so should His servants. Divorce divides what God has united. As an act of rebellion on someone's part, it has cascading destructive consequences—and the children are usually at the bottom of the avalanche.

But there are times when divorce is not only lawful, but proper and even obligatory. In a day when divorce is commonly sought as a solution of first resort, Christians sometimes shy away from this. But it is important to affirm this principle, and teach it, for a number of reasons. In any setting where divorce is virtually impossible, all the cards have been given to those who are hard-hearted. Jesus said that divorce was given through Moses precisely because of hardness of heart. In other words, the wisdom of God determined that divorce was an appropriate answer to that kind of hard-heartedness. It is never a positive good, but it is sometimes the only appropriate response to that which is evil.

But there are churches where divorce is entirely excluded. Unfortunately, they are usually not so successful in banning hard hearts. There are other churches where divorce is virtually excluded. Again, hard-heartedness is not virtually eliminated in any kind of parity. What this means is that the hard-hearted one is given a free hostage, and he can then do whatever he wants. Because of the stand taken by the church, the one in the marriage who winds up getting hammered is the one who actually cares what God's Word says. Not only so, but he or she is hammered twice—once by the sinning spouse, and secondly by the sinning church. Until we recover what it means to think covenantally (because covenants have stipulations and conditions), we will continue to struggle with this.
Sin specializes in walking the line, usually just a little bit on the wrong side of it, wherever that line has been drawn. This tendency can be illustrated with minor and endearing infractions. Just last night I was watching my one-year-old grandson being told not to touch a vase of flowers. So he touched the flowers with his head. "Nobody said not to use the head. You meant not to touch it with my hands. Didn't you?" Of course, he did not say this—he can't talk. But that is what he was doing. But the same pattern is not nearly so endearing when it grows up; it can be employed by those who are interested in pursuing their abominations. The sinful mind is inherently a legalistic mind and loves detailed arcana.

Because of this, those who have a wooden view of the scriptural requirements of divorce don't know how to handle the creativity of sinful weirdness. The hard-hearted one can make sure that he gets all his sinning in without giving his spouse a lawful out. What counsel do you give a woman if the husband gets breast implants and wears dresses around the house? And what do you say if he demands to be shown a verse? Okay, Deuteronomy 22:5, but where does it say in that verse specifically that this is grounds for divorce? Of course, there is no specific verse to that effect.

But Jesus allowed divorce for porneias. The word is not the specific word for adultery, and it is a very broad term referring to sexual uncleanness. It is broad in just the way that legalistic sinners hate. Whenever someone is caught in sin, their first reaction is to grab for the rulebook in order to challenge the point. "It wasn't adultery because it was oral sex. It wasn't adultery because I didn't really love her. It wasn't adultery because a twenty-year collection of child porn magazines isn't adultery. It wasn't adultery because I was just fondling our daughter. Fondling is not adultery."

But whether or not it was adultery, all the above have to be considered as porneias—sexual uncleanness. And Jesus says that whoever divorces, "except for porneias"is guilty. Now if you have an example of such porneias, but it is followed by true and genuine repentance, down to the ground, then there is the possibility of reconciliation. I don't believe that marital reconciliation can be demanded (either by the guilty party, or by the church), but it should be sought. And when a biblical reconciliation can be brought about, that is what we should strive for.

At the same time, this pursuit of reconciliation should not be done in such a way as to place any unnecessary burdens on the victim. The Bible teaches that a man reaps what he sows, but often Christian counsel tries to make the innocent party share in the harvest. "For better for worse" in the wedding vows does not refer to the "worse" of covenant-breaking. It refers to sickness, health, riches, poverty, and so on—all the things bestowed by a wise Providence on married couples across the spectrum. It does not refer to rejection of the basic commitment made in the covenant. Marriages are covenants, and covenants can be broken.

So suppose there has been a clear-cut example of porneias. If repentance follows, forgiveness must be extended, but this is not the same thing as saying that marital reconciliation must be extended. The qualifications for personal fellowship and holding office (in this case, of husband or wife) are different. But let us further say that instead of repentance following, we instead find explaining, excusing, blame-shifting, logic-chopping, waffling, noodling, or backfilling. It is time to walk.

[EdJones]

There are three grounds of divorce: death, desertion, and fornication. In all three cases--death, desertion, and fornication--the party who is left alone is single, and as a single person, they are capable of remarriage.

The remarriage is warned against because of trouble in the flesh. The remarriage is advised against, and they are told they would be happier if they would stay single. They are told that if they get remarried, they will not have sinned, but they will have "trouble in the flesh." They are given the added caution that they can marry only a person in the Lord--a Christian person.

[yxboom]

this is one of those few occassions :thumb: for :ddw:

[Queen]

To be honest....forget the religious yes's and no's of divorce. Her life is in danger. He may not have hurt her physically, but he will.....he will. And that scares me. IMHO NO God can say that when you escape from such a marriage and be true to your own person, is wrong.

I might be not a Christian, but I have been in an emotional abusive relationship. I escaped, but only after he raped me to make me feel how powerful he was. That is horror. No church should forbid her to leave this marriage. It is ridiculous and it is humiliating. Her self esteem and her body and soul deserves love.......she deserves it and she owe's it to herself. Death is not the answer.

Please. Elysian, be good to yourself and make the wise decision. Leave him, before it is too late. You have suffered enough!!

Lots of love, strenght and sunshine,
Queen

[dizzle]

Queen, I say this with all respect (and love and sunshine) my friend, but you really need to respect when Christian only or Biblical only responses are requested.

[Queen]

I respect those, Dee Dee....I truly do....But I guess Elysian's safety and sanity comes first. It is emotional, not rational......I worry about her.

Thanks Hon...I know what you mean. I never meant disrespect..

Lots of love and sunshine,
Queen

[Dr T]

Not sure if this will help, but marriage is a very strong contract between two people.

Both parties make promises at the same time and together, before God and in front of all their friends and family.

Isn't the contract broken at the time that these promises are not fulfilled.

So for example by not being faithful (adultary), not cherishing (violence) and so on.

Assuming no change of behaviour or chance of reconcilation, then the marraige contract has already been broken by the other party. Given that the mutual contract has been broken should the non offending party be still bound by it? Isn't the divorce at that time just recognising that the other party has already broken the marriage contract. If some one else breaks a contract you have with them, are you still bound by the terms of that contract?


To put it in a different light, do we think that God wants one of his daughters to be battered by someone who has promised to cherish her?

[themuzicman]

I'll say it again: MARRIAGE IS NOT A CONTRACT.

A contract is a business agreement, an arrangement. It can be kept or broken.

A vow (remember marraige vow?) has a specific exit clause, and only in that case is the vow broken: "UNTIL DEATH DO US PART."

IF we use God as our example, He made a covenant with Israel that was repeatedly violated by Israel, and He acted within His power to return Israel to their part of the covenant.

He even "divorced" Israel for a while, but again returned Israel to Himself.

I think if we follow God's lead, here, we find that separation and conditional reconciliation is what is best prescribed in most situations.

I do agree with Queen that this husband has the potential to be violent, especially if she starts to stand up against being a doormat, and should find a way to be separated and plan for it long term.

But I don't think outright divorce is the answer, unless the unbelieving spouse leaves.

Michael

[Queen]

Muz...He has broken his vows...to love and cherish Elysian.....To have and hold and protect her......

But I think it is hard to see the real pain when you have a good marriage with a spouse that respects you. It is hard to imagine how terrible emotional abuse can be. I know.......I have been there.

Elysian, you are in my thoughts and I hope you'll find a way to be safe and in peace with your faith..

Lots of true love and sunshine,
Queen

[themuzicman]

Apparantly you missed the part where I said to find alternative long term living arrangements, and set conditions for your return.

Certainly this man has not lived up to his obligations under the vow of marriage, but that doesn't mean he isn't capable of change. Moving out just puts the ball into his court: Change or leave. It fits the biblical mandate, and puts her out of harm's way.

Michael

[spl_cadet]

Ordinarily the Catholic Church is completely against divorce. But your situation is a textbook case for receiving an anullment (recognition that the marriage wasn't sacramental), should you return. Improper form (it wasn't Catholic) and the fact that he is abusive towards you indicates that he didn't intend to uphold his marriage vows.

So I'd get out of their as fast as you can.

Muzicman: The Pauline privilege only applies when the two people were both unbelievers, one of them converted, and the other divorced them.

[Queen]

Muz,...
(I love those piggy's!!)

I know what you mean and I understand what you are saying. But I thought he would change as well.......and look at me today....PTSD, depression, suicidal and in therapy to cope with all the past anguish....

I don't want anyone to go through that....not even my worst enemies.....I can't believe that God wants her to suffer so much. That would make Him a cruel God....(IMHO....not to insult your God or anything like that)

I can only hope he will change.....I really hope he will. But I am so afraid that he will hurt her......

To me, like I said before this is personal and I react from my heart, emotional, not my mind.....

Elysian is crying out for help this way!!! Please, she needs to find a way to get out of there.....it is a cry for help!!!!!!

Lots of love and sunshine,
Queen

[themuzicman]

Ah, yes. More Catholic control mechanisms.

Scripture usually cures these things:

But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13 And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, she must not send her husband away. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy. 15 Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace. 16 For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?

Nothing about being an unbeliever when they got married, spl.

Michael

[elysian]

No I don't mind "non-Christian" responses, though as a Christian I am held to God's standard in Scripture, so that is the standard I pray for His grace to be able to follow.

My church does not forbid divorce (it does strongly discourage it) and I would not be cut off from my church if I took that option. I know of many people in my church, including my pastors, who understand my situation and who would support me. I am so thankful to God that I belong to an awesome church. (Lutherans: key word- Grace) They know that for me leaving would be a last resort and it would be with a heavy and penitent heart. I even believe in these instances God does have mercy and He does forgive us, though His grace should never be taken lightly.

But in my conscience I cannot justify it. I cannot justify it in God's word either.

I do believe (and maybe this is a remnant of the good old Catholic guilt) that there are blessings that come from "trials by fire," that if we are obedient to God and we endure, He does bless us.

I do thank God that my husband and I did have a good discussion last night (instead of what he usually does, i.e. getting plastered, ranting for awhile and then passing out) and most of his "problem" is he wants control of finances. He can have it, and therefore get to see what his drinking and gambling does.

So I continue to pray, and stand by God's grace. All things are possible with Him.

[Queen]

Elysian,

I respect your brave decision. You are filled with so much love. I am always here if you need to talk. Just be safe. Take good care of yourself and I hope that your life will have many beautiful moments...

Wish you lots of love and sunshine on the road of life, whatever that road may....I hope it is not too bumpy,
Queen

[spl_cadet]

Today @ 06:30 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=254698#post254698)
themuzicman:

Ah, yes. More Catholic control mechanisms.

Scripture usually cures these things:



Nothing about being an unbeliever when they got married, spl.

Michael

Might not be stated explicitly, but it is certtainly understood. These people were already married at the time of their conversion.

[Rubia Warren]

I've been thinking about this a long time.
Many times, when you are married to somebody who is addicted to alcohol, or a gambler, or whatever it may be, many times you get dragged into a lifestyle of dishonesty. Lots of things you just cannot separate, like you can your belief system or going to church on Sunday and the other one doesn't.
We are supposed to be good workers and humble and obedient to our bosses at work, or even have to submit to the government, right? But when it comes down to certain things, we should leave, like if an employer wants you to fudge the books at work and you know it's dishonest and wrong- you should not do it, even if you have to quit your job. I mean, what if the employer refuses to fire you, yet the practices of the company are wrong and dishonest and hurt other people, and THEY JUST WON'T FIRE YOU FOR ABSTAINING?
The same with a marriage (although I know marriage is a bit different than just a job).... what if that unbeliever wants to live with you, won't leave, yet keeps doing dangerously dishonest things- things which put the believer in jeopardy legally and morally? The believer automatically gets dragged into these shady dealings just by being one flesh with that person.
Yeah yeah, I know: seperation.

[themuzicman]

10-24-2003 @ 07:51 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=255466#post255466)
spl_cadet:
Might not be stated explicitly, but it is certtainly understood. These people were already married at the time of their conversion.

And we know this how?

[Jaltus]

Because Paul taught Christians to not marry nonChristians, that is how. Take a canonical approach and you will see that spl is right.

[spl_cadet]

There's also the slight fact that people weren't being raised Christian as of yet, and were still all converts.

[Kenny]

10-24-2003 @ 04:16 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=254832#post254832)
elysian:

My church does not forbid divorce (it does strongly discourage it) and I would not be cut off from my church if I took that option. I know of many people in my church, including my pastors, who understand my situation and who would support me. I am so thankful to God that I belong to an awesome church. (Lutherans: key word- Grace) They know that for me leaving would be a last resort and it would be with a heavy and penitent heart. I even believe in these instances God does have mercy and He does forgive us, though His grace should never be taken lightly.

But in my conscience I cannot justify it. I cannot justify it in God's word either.

It is not God’s will for you to stay in an abusive context where your life may be in danger or where you are at risk of physical harm. Even if the abuse is just emotional, verbal and financial, such has the potential to easily go over into the physical. I say leave! Those who have advised you to leave but not get a divorce and to seek reconciliation by means of repentance from your husband are right. This is the Biblical way to do things. It’s similar to the idea of expelling the immoral brother in I Corinthians. You cut the other person off from the benefits of the covenant community on account of their violation of the covenant in order to (hopefully) restore that person to covenant community. Your husband is not living up to his end of the marriage covenant, so cut him off from its benefits by leaving, but don’t divorce him. Turn him over to Satan, as I Corinthians puts it, in order that his soul might be saved. Be open to reconciliation but only where there is sincere repentance (which will include him getting counseling and a sufficiently long testing period so that you know he really means it).

I do believe (and maybe this is a remnant of the good old Catholic guilt) that there are blessings that come from "trials by fire," that if we are obedient to God and we endure, He does bless us.

God doesn’t call us to participate in our own victimization. You have God given power to act to change your situation (and that of your husband) for the better. If you do not use that power, you are abdicating your God given responsibility. Don’t excuse this by saying its submission to God’s will. Remember, one of the chief characteristics of God that we see in Scripture is that He is the liberator of the oppressed. He does not call you to play the role of the victim.

I do thank God that my husband and I did have a good discussion last night (instead of what he usually does, i.e. getting plastered, ranting for awhile and then passing out) and most of his "problem" is he wants control of finances. He can have it, and therefore get to see what his drinking and gambling does.

It won’t stop there. Abusive controlling personalities like that cannot be satiated. He’ll just find some other excuse for his behavior no matter what you do. You should not indulge him in his sin by giving in to his abusive demands. This is not the sort of Biblical submission that God calls you to as a wife. The submission of the wife which the Bible speaks of is the submission of the wife to the loving leadership of her husband (as the church does to Christ). Where the husband is not engaging in loving leadership, the context for Biblical submission is lost. You are not violating the command to submit to your husband if you refuse to indulge him in his sinful behavior because such is outside the context in which Biblical submission can occur. In fact, it would be sinful for you to submit under these conditions because you are thereby encouraging the sin of another through your acquiescence.

It is not only permissible for you to leave. You ought to leave, for both your own sake and the sake of your husband (so that he might be led to repentance). This is precisely the loving thing for you to do. Biblical love is tough love, not a passive acquiescence to sin and oppression.

So I continue to pray, and stand by God's grace. All things are possible with Him.

Yes, all things are possible with Christ. I pray He will give you the courage and strength you need to leave and that you will trust in His grace and provision in doing so.

In Christ,
Kenny

[Kenny]

10-23-2003 @ 07:40 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=253617#post253617)
elysian:

1 Corinthians 7:11 (NIV) "To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife."

Remember, Paul is speaking to a very specific group of people in a very specific context here. Beware of drawing absolute rules where there are contextual boundaries. Paul was not speaking to cases of abuse, but spiritually unequal marriages. He was saying that one ought not leave one’s spouse simply on the account that he or she is an unbeliever. That’s not really your situation. You have to look behind the context a little for principles rather than just rules. The principle is that if the unbeliever is willing to continue fulfill his part of the marriage covenant, the believing wife should not leave. However, if the unbeliever refuses to fulfill his part of the marriage covenant (in this specific case by leaving or divorcing), the believing wife is not bound to him. Applying that to your situation then, your husband is not fulfilling his end of the marriage covenant on account of his abusive behavior. Thus, you are not bound. You may separate without guilt. In fact, as I argued in my previous post, you ought to separate so as not to give license to the sin of another.

In Christ,
Kenny

[David O]

Follow the rules of the Bible. Be obedient, he may be won over the Jesus because of it. Divorce is not your option, but it is his. God divorced Aholah and Aholibah, so divorce in and of itself is not immoral, but I can't see anywhere in the Bible that it is ok for women to divorce men. God hates divorce, even when He had to do it. God can fix really screwed-up people. He did it for me. Be submissive to him and pray for him. Pray for those who spitefully use you. Bless those who curse you. The Lord is near to the broken-hearted and rescues those who are crushed in spirit.

Read about Abigail. She helped keep her husband from being killed by David (when Nabal had dissed him) and didn't tell him the scary news while he had a good buzz going. She respectfully waited until morning. God got rid of the man in His own time and she got to be married to king David; father of Jesus (also he was the world's most successful song writer, a world renouned military commander, and planner and supplier for the most important building ever made...)

This life is not all there is.

We people who are writing on computers after having eaten food today (inside of air-conditioned buildings safe from criminals and wild animals, having driven to them in cars w/ AC) need to not be so worried about things being fair for us. Consider that the majority of the world is in danger, starving, unable to worship God openly, subject to unbelieveably cruel masters... "Not fair" is better said about a Dalit kid digging turds out of the sewer tubes in India, or a little sold-into-prostitution girl in southeast Asia.

[Queen]

David,

but I can't see anywhere in the Bible that it is ok for women to divorce men.

So, if hubby dearest beats the @#$% out of you, and/or rapes you and/or humiliates you, control's you financially, emotionally and so on, you still can't divorce him?

That is so cruel!!!! That is horrific!! That is so not of this day and age!

[Dr T]

10-23-2003 @ 10:11 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=253759#post253759)
themuzicman:

IT's sad to see marriage reduced to a contract status. Vows used to be something you kept because you made it, regardless of what the other side does.

That's what marriage used to be.

Michael

So you would be happy for one side to break every vow to love and to cherish , and to be true, yet still hold the other party who has broken no vow what so ever to every last detail?

[themuzicman]

Today @ 10:08 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=271014#post271014)
Dr T:
So you would be happy for one side to break every vow to love and to cherish , and to be true, yet still hold the other party who has broken no vow what so ever to every last detail?

Happy? No. But what's the exit clause to a marraige vow? "Until death do us part".

Did that happen, yet?

Now, that doesn't preclude separation for personal protection, and a lengthy recociliation, if the other spouse wishes to do so.

Michael

[Dr T]

10-24-2003 @ 01:24 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=254576#post254576)
themuzicman:

I'll say it again: MARRIAGE IS NOT A CONTRACT.

A contract is a business agreement, an arrangement. It can be kept or broken.

A vow (remember marraige vow?) has a specific exit clause, and only in that case is the vow broken: "UNTIL DEATH DO US PART."

IF we use God as our example, He made a covenant with Israel that was repeatedly violated by Israel, and He acted within His power to return Israel to their part of the covenant.

He even "divorced" Israel for a while, but again returned Israel to Himself.

I think if we follow God's lead, here, we find that separation and conditional reconciliation is what is best prescribed in most situations.

I do agree with Queen that this husband has the potential to be violent, especially if she starts to stand up against being a doormat, and should find a way to be separated and plan for it long term.

But I don't think outright divorce is the answer, unless the unbelieving spouse leaves.

Michael

I was using contract it the sense given in the following quote. A contract to marry is a long standing term.




"Prior to 1970 a contract to marry, that is an engagement, was like any other contract and if it was broken the rejected suitor could sue for breach of contract But the right to sue has now been abolished and so an agreement to marry, i.e. an engagement, is no longer a legally binding contract They are in some situations, such as with immigration law, where an engagement may be used as evidence of intention to marry."


http://www.ncab.netcom.co.uk/news/news_19990121.htm

[themuzicman]

That's in the legal sense, not the moral one.

[Dr T]

Today @ 03:16 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=271032#post271032)
themuzicman:

That's in the legal sense, not the moral one.

True

[Queen]

Gentlemen.... :wink:

Sometimes there are good enough reasons to divorce....and it is not a decision that is easy, especially when you still have strong feelings for your spouse........but you just have to get out, because if you stay the damage to your own life (soul, mind and body) is too big....

my two cents

Lots of love and sunshine,
Queen

[themuzicman]

Well, within atheism, it is hard to construct a morality that asks people to keep their vows when they appear to have little to benefit from it.

Within Christianity, however, a vow is taken before God, and He expects that we will abide in it as much as it is up to us, whether we appear to be benefitting or not.

Now, like I said, there is provision for separation when there is threat of abuse, and for allowing an unbelieving partner to leave if they wish.

Michael

[David O]

Today @ 03:08 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=271014#post271014)
Dr T:



So you would be happy for one side to break every vow to love and to cherish , and to be true, yet still hold the other party who has broken no vow what so ever to every last detail?


God lets you do that to Him.

Our own personal disrespect for God is infinitely more awful than a mean husband's cruelty. We are the bride/slave of Christ. We are rebellious and abusive to Him. He never sins. He eventually divorced His wayward wife in Isaiah, though.

Marriage contracts in the Old Testament are never an equal proposition. The rights are not the same both ways. There are not "sides", there is over and under. There is no discernable distinction in Exodus between wife and slave. We are to sumbit to even the froward masters. Doing so is the work of God. Read Peter.

I have lived through an abusive relationship. It stinks, but not as bad as our sins against God stink.

[David O]

Today @ 03:40 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=271088#post271088)
themuzicman:

Now, like I said, there is provision for separation when there is threat of abuse, Michael


There is not.

[David O]

Today @ 06:48 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=270811#post270811)
Queen:

David,



So, if hubby dearest beats the @#$% out of you, and/or rapes you and/or humiliates you, control's you financially, emotionally and so on, you still can't divorce him?

That is so cruel!!!! That is horrific!! That is so not of this day and age!


Definitely not of this day and age in America.

Have you watched Christian American women verbally castrate their husbands? Wipe them out financially? Abuse him emotionally? Jesus called men to love their wives and He loves the church. Men take that crap all the time. I'd prefer a physical beating over listening to my answering machine play back a tape of my 3 year old son talking to what he thinks is me and being told by his mom that, "Daddy's not going to talk to you right now."

[Queen]

Muz:
Well, within atheism, it is hard to construct a morality that asks people to keep their vows when they appear to have little to benefit from it.

David O:
There is no discernable distinction in Exodus between wife and slave

Men :doh:

:lol:

You two are.....well.....nuts......and I mean that in the nicest way.

Muz,

I wonder why you all think that Atheist people have no morals. I am married and believe me, it is not easy. But I love him and I am faithful, honest and I support him. I even married him in church because he wanted that. I married before your God. We have our ups and downs and I have had not the most easy life with him....I am still married. If I had no moral sense, I would have left him by now! So, you paint it a little black and white. People can vow a lot, but if you are in mortal danger (physically or mentally).....I say get the hell out of that hell! I refuse to believe that God would be angry about that or whatever his wrath is....

David,

I don't know if I can say this, but I have the feeling that you are reacting too emotional (I react that way too.....so it is not criticism). But if you have treated your ex wife equal to a slave, I am not surprised. Sorry if this is a little harsh. I do hope you can have a healthy relationship with your son. I don't know if you heard the latest news, but we are equal mentally.....I am not my husbands slave!
I do agree that abuse is not only from the man side. Women can be bitches as well and abuse a man.....so I agree with you. I used the husband, because Elysian was talking about her husband.....later on I used the word spouse, because this is more general.....see we agree on one thing already :wink:

I wish you both a lot of love and sunshine,
Queen

[David O]

I treated my wife like she was an equal and she ended up being the boss. I was good at it. I took a lot of crap and gave up a lot of dignity. I was wrong to skip out on doing my own work. I am not subject to my emotions in the same way that you are subject to yours.

I live in Madeline Murray O'Hare's town. My Father was an atheist when I was growing up. I disagree with Atheism but mostly admire those people with enough guts to defend it. They very often know more about Christianity than Christians.

Thanks for the love and sunshine, I wish you peace.

[Prakk]

In reading through this thread, I found a LITTLE bit of Biblical truth, but not a lot of it. Divorce is only ok for one reason, that is adultery on the part of the wife, and only the husband may divorce. Beleivers who are in a marriage with an unbeliever are not said to be divorced in 1st Cor 7 when the unbeliever leaves, the marriage is just over, immediately. Divorce is a specific tool introduced in the Law for husbands who are getting rid of an adulterous wife. There is no other application for believers.

Hugh McBryde

[Ryokan]

You know what I think Elysian. I am just going to say I hope things get better, one way or another. You have had enough trial.

[Cynic Sage]

My advice is this. Seek professional counseling. An internet forum isn't the best kind of place for guidance at in a situation like yours.

[elysian]

You know what I think Elysian. I am just going to say I hope things get better, one way or another. You have had enough trial.

Thanks. I appreciate the thought. As I'm looking at this thread again (and it's been floating around for some time) I can honestly see where God has worked and continues to work healing in my marriage. Yes I have gotten professional help, and yes I am still living with my husband and don't plan on divorcing him.

I won't say that things are ideal, but much improved. I can only hold on to the hope that God will give me the grace I need to continue to live with the *unique* conditions. :wink:

[just Johnna]

Just trolling for some insight and objective opinions.

Anyway, there are only two Scripturally correct options that I see. Because my husband thoroughly enjoys making me miserable and derives great joy from keeping me awake at all hours by playing loud music and partying with buddies, by demanding that I fix him food in the middle of the night, in cutting me off from my family, and friends and especially making it hard for me to be involved in my church, he won't leave me. So the following applies to me: "And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him." 1 Corinthians 7:13 (NIV)

I understand if he left me then it would be OK for me to divorce him and start again without it being sin: "But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace." 1 Corinthians 7:15 (NIV)

This OP started long ago; I hope and pray that long since the escape which the Lord made for Elysian has been found by her, that she would be able to bear.

Isn't it Biblical to refuse to cooperate with such a spouse? If God's idea of marriage is not having you yoked with someone who wakes you up in the middle of the night with music, parties, and demands for food, can't you act as if he did--refuse to provide 2 a.m. food, "steal" the money to pay bills, communicate with your family regardless of his unrighteous demands? In other words, sometimes aren't Christians called to make the ungodly uncomfortable? If we can hassle the PTA by standing up for what's right, why not the same to the wayward spouse?

If the guy abuses you, wouldn't the appropriate consequence be withholding your person, by moving out? If it doesn't measure out to abuse and you are safe with your inconsiderate and selfish spouse, should you witness by how you live that you are worthy of respect and consideration?

It seems to me we're not called to make the unbeliever comfortable in demeaning us. Make him uncomfortable. Perhaps he will learn from the standard of decency and respect and become a true husband. If he leaves, let him go. You will have made possible the best possible solution.

just Johnna

[elysian]

This OP started long ago; I hope and pray that long since the escape which the Lord made for Elysian has been found by her, that she would be able to bear.

Isn't it Biblical to refuse to cooperate with such a spouse? If God's idea of marriage is not having you yoked with someone who wakes you up in the middle of the night with music, parties, and demands for food, can't you act as if he did--refuse to provide 2 a.m. food, "steal" the money to pay bills, communicate with your family regardless of his unrighteous demands? In other words, sometimes aren't Christians called to make the ungodly uncomfortable? If we can hassle the PTA by standing up for what's right, why not the same to the wayward spouse?

If the guy abuses you, wouldn't the appropriate consequence be withholding your person, by moving out? If it doesn't measure out to abuse and you are safe with your inconsiderate and selfish spouse, should you witness by how you live that you are worthy of respect and consideration?

It seems to me we're not called to make the unbeliever comfortable in demeaning us. Make him uncomfortable. Perhaps he will learn from the standard of decency and respect and become a true husband. If he leaves, let him go. You will have made possible the best possible solution.

just Johnna

Yes I have done several of these things. For instance I will provide him an evening meal. If he chooses not to eat at a decent hour, then that is his choice, but I will not get up in the middle of the night to fix him special food. It took a few nights of me going to a 24 hour grocery parking lot and sleeping in the car- to curb the loud music as well as the late night food demands- but eventually he got the point. Once he understood he couldn't annoy me with his behavior, because I wouldn't stick around to be annoyed, then the behavior lost its charm. Thankfully he has come to the understanding that if it is after 10 PM and I'm in bed, that the only reason he should even think about waking me is if the house is on fire or somebody died. This is a major improvement.

I don't have as much trouble with being able to participate at church either, lately (and this will be on trial again during Advent and Lent...as I'm at church a lot more often during those seasons of the church year) for which I am very thankful. He has even come to some kind of an understanding, that if not for my faith I would not, and could not endure him. He does understand that if I must make a choice between him and God that God's going to win, so he has pretty much refrained from commenting on my church involvement.

[just Johnna]

....This is a major improvement....
My dear elysian,

---and you are dear to me though I'm a stranger. I know you through your many posts and love to find them archived and read them. I gained a high opinion of you before coming across this surprising thread.---

We cross-posted; I was asking my question about Biblical strategies for difficult marriages in general. So I was delighted to see your update and feel so blessed to get hear of improvements. The situation you described earlier was untenable! And even now, it's only tenable as it continues to grow into something else.

I know you to be a wise person from your posts, and trust the Lord will continue to lead you through difficult times.

I find I look to 1 Corinthians 9:9-10 a lot. I was curious what passages other people use to strengthen themselves and clarify what's right and what's selfish.

just Johnna

[basspro]

I really feel for you. I have been through it. You might find help from David Instone-Brewer's Divorce and Remarriage in the Bible: The Social and Literary Context. Also see Instone-Brewer.com.

[ssienth]

A possible option that I am not sure anyone mentioned in this thread:

First, I am unclear on how exactly to interpret what the Bible says about divorce and remarriage. But unless you believe that celibacy in marriage is a sin, then can't you just separate without divorcing? This means, of course, that you are still considered married in God's eyes, and so cannot morally remarry. In fact, even if you get a legal divorce, does that mean you are divorced in God's eyes? Probably not. If you get a legal divorce and never remarry, perhaps from a Biblical perspective this would just be considered separation?

Maybe?

[sonador1969]

I am seeking answers to this question and am thoroughly confused in the matter. If two people rushed into marriage and very quickly realize they've made a huge mistake, is it permissable?

Thanks,

Laura

[Abykale]

You'd probably do better to start a new thread on the subject.

[themuzicman]

I am seeking answers to this question and am thoroughly confused in the matter. If two people rushed into marriage and very quickly realize they've made a huge mistake, is it permissable?

Thanks,

Laura

No. The vows have been taken, the marriage consummated. Any two people can be married to each other, if they're willing to make it work.

Michael

[brother vinny]

No. The vows have been taken, the marriage consummated. Any two people can be married to each other, if they're willing to make it work.

Michael

Didn't know you came down on the side supporting same-sex marriage, Muz.

[ginger_cup]

Hello elysian, Your post tells my story to a T. I also married my husband in disobedience, and also, to get out of the house of my restrictive parents. Now I find myself married to a gambling alcoholic.

I believe that I may not be able to Biblically divorce him, however, I believe that although I am married to him - i do NOT have to live with him. I have taken the steps i need to separate our finances so I am no longer paying for his addiction to gambling and drinking.

I don't know if you are still battling for your marriage - but I do wish you the best and I pray for peace at your home. :pray:

[Spheniscine]

*bump*

I've just been thinking, wouldn't an abusive spouse be considered just as "unfaithful" to their role as an unrepentant adulterer would? After all, marriage is more than about sex; it stands to reason that one can be unfaithful in more than one way.

[casper164]

God does call us to peace, there are many positions to your question.

I guess you will have to decide what you really want to do, it if comes to the spot where you are looking for permission no one other than God can give it to you.

I would ask you to ask yourself a few questions.

1. Do you love your husband?
2. Are you at physical risk?
3. What do you really want in life?
4. Even though it may be tough, are you praying for your husband daily?
5. Have you read the power of a praying wife?

Now let me qualify this for you a little, my wife left me almost 4 weeks ago, so obviously I struggle with some of the same things that you do.

Marriage is a three way relationship, I have to work hard these days at understanding that.
So I take my frustrations to God daily on this. Two people need to focus on God.

Col. 3:1-2

Now that being easily said it's really hard to do that. You know, you could be dealing with some consequences from your decision to marry this man, but another way to look at this is, is God using you and your walk with him to reach this man. It may or may not be possible to reach him, but go read the book of Hosea. I'm not trying to tell you to do something that you don't want to or feel safe to do, the last thing I want is for you get hurt.

Asses the risk and you know, it is ok to separate for a while and to take yourself away from a dangerous situation. If you go to a good church, that is the first place you should be getting your advice. From a professional marriage counselor through your church. If your Church doesn't have a Pastor you can go see then it's time to look for another Church.

Tony Evans also puts out a great book on Godly marriage and divorce. The ISBN# is 0-8024-4386-9.

Talk to a qualified Pastor before you do anything. Above all take your petition to the third person of your marriage covenant, - GOD. Complain to him and ask him what to do, ask every day, get on your knees in prayer and ask. He will also listen to you when you are bitter. Ask him to take that away from you and he will. Remember vengeance is his, he will repay. He tells us to love our enemies and in so doing we will heap burning coals on their heads. Romans 12:20, Mat. 5:44, Proverbs 25:21-23
What if through your actions your unsaved husband comes to know Christ. He should have that option just like you and I had.

God Bless you stay safe.

L