Rev.17 What do you think?

[e4e]

Revelation 17





Revelation 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will show unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

The great whore, who is she? She is given the name in verse 5, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

In verse 4 the angel shows the wealth of the whore and she has receive that wealth by performing her service to the beast. It is a service upon which the beast relies. This gives the whore authority over the beast. The beast had become dependant on the whore and so the whore exercises authority over the beast, . The whore exercises her authority not by might but by the influence of the services she provides to the beast which has become dependent on those services. The whore set upon many waters.
Revelation 17:15 And he said unto me, The waters which thou saw, where the whore sit, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Though the beast is a willing participant the peoples multitudes and nations are not. They are made to partake of the services of the beast by the actions of the beast.

Revelation 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus:---

This whore was very wealthy and made makes her living at the expense of the innocent and in collaboration with governments. She set upon government. She was not the government. From her appearance one could deduce a financial system that governments relied upon. It is the governments that were in the position of servitude to the whore. The whore was not holding up the government but the governments was holding up the whore. The whore is the master of the governments by her ability to produce wealth for the beast and to herself. The wealth that the beast and the whore received came from those who were victimized by the beast with the polices of the whore. The beast were not victims but co-conspirators to steel the wealth of nations. The reason that the whore killed the saints and the martyrs of Jesus is that they possessed the truth that could exposed the whore. The whore if exposed would lose her power and death did not deter the saints or the martyrs for Jesus.

MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. This is very critical. This is not the Babylonian government but that which the Babylonian government relied. It was not the government itself. King Nebuchanizzar displayed his innermost character and it was this mystery that fed that character and caused its display for the masses.

Daniel 3:1 Nebuchadnezzar the king made an image of gold, whose height was threescore cubits, and the breadth thereof six cubits: he set it up in the plain of Dura, in the province of Babylon.
2 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king sent to gather together the princes, the governors, and the captains, the judges, the treasurers, the counsellors, the sheriffs, and all the rulers of the provinces, to come to the dedication of the image which Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up.
3 Then the princes, the governors, and captains, the judges, the treasurers, the counsellors, the sheriffs, and all the rulers of the provinces, were gathered together unto the dedication of the image that Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up; and they stood before the image that Nebuchadnezzar had set up.
4 Then an herald cried aloud, To you it is commanded, O people, nations, and languages,
5 That at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king hath set up:
6 And whoso falleth not down and worshippeth shall the same hour be cast into the midst of a burning fiery furnace.
7 Therefore at that time, when all the people heard the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and all kinds of musick, all the people, the nations, and the languages, fell down and worshipped the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up.

This is the way that the Mystery Babylon displayed it self. It seeks to kill all those who will not buy into its system and consequently the blood of the saints was found in her.

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goes into perdition.

Now for the beast with the seven heads and ten horns.. The 9th. Verse says that the 7 heads are seven mountains. It is a well known fact that Rome sets on seven mountains. This I do not think is the proper understanding that should be give to this passage. The reason is this. The whore is the Mystery Babylon so the whore was sitting on Babylon giving the prospective of World power of which Babylon and Rome are both one off. The first six empires that dominated the then known world are 1.Chaldean, 2 Egyptian 3 Babylonian, 4 Medo-Persia, 5 Grecian, 6 Roman, 7.----, 8.------. The scripture does not say who #7 is but we do know that # 8 is the Mystery Babylon. The beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goes into perdition. The king that is, is Rome. Rome was in power at the time of the giving of this prophecy.

The beast that was and is not is Babylon, not Rome. Babylon is also one of the seven and will be the 8th.. It is Babylon were the image of Satan was made and covered with gold and was ordered to be worshiped.

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou saw are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

It is important to remember from the outset that the Ten nations that had not received there kingdom as yet gave there power to the beast, not the whore. The whore existed through all 7 empires. The 7 world empires are in fact the beast. These 7 world empires dominate the middle east and not the globe If one wants to know who the 7th empire is then one must look at who is the empire that dominates the middle east before the rise of Mystery Babylon who is called the whore or the woman setting on the beast.

The ten kings are in existence today. These are the kingdoms that will be involved at Armageddon at the return of Christ Jesus. They are the Fundamental Islamic nations of the Middle east who receive there power from the beast but hate the oppressive international monetary system and the 10 nations will destroy the international monetary system. Verse 14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Rev. 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

The whore or Mystery Babylon is that spirit that suppress and oppresses nations. That Spirit cannot function unless there are those who willingly accept its leadership for the sake of wealth and power that she brings to her subjects. The 8th empire will be run by such people and it is called Babylon. The seven are ruthless enough to us there power without moral conscience to accomplish there end. The monetary system that supports the 7 kings or mountains will be destroyed by the 10 nations that have not received there kingdoms. This will cause extreme hardship, famine and death. The system that binds the beast, peoples and nations to the will of the whore is the International monetary system. A system of debt that obligates nations to one supply of money. When this house of cards falls the economic fallout will be extreme. The 7th king (nation) falls and opens the way for the New Babylon, the 8th king who makes war on the Lamb. This is Armageddon. The final conflict that ends with the return of Christ.

Rev.17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

It is apparent that the Mystery Babylon is a global system. A hidden system. It is also apparent that this system is a economic system that holds sway over the hearts of men and rewards them with capital gain. The affairs of men and government are ruled by the whore and all decisions are made to feed the appetite of the whore. If you will notice the 10 nations receive there power from the beast, not the whore. The beast has sway as government over the nations. The ten nations hate the whore not the governments. Why was the twin towers struck? It was not an attack on the United States but an attack on the whore. The whore is the invisible world economic system that reduces nations to slavery by debt. The United States is the enforcer of the world economic system. When the international monetary system is destroyed by the 10 kings there will be no way to defend Israel and they will gather at a place call Armageddon where Jesus will intervene and destroy the beast, the whore and the 10 nations.

[Rubia Warren]

Er, and what do you think about that whore sitting on seven hills?

[Theolog]

02-23-2003 @ 09:31 PM
La Rubia:
Er, and what do you think about that whore sitting on seven hills?
If I may.
Hi ho kafusalem the harlet of Jerusalem the daughter of the Rabbi.:yipee:

Just an old pirate song. I believe the whore is apostate Israel. You know the seven hills.:idea:

[e4e]

La RubiaEr, and what do you think about that whore sitting on seven hills?

e4e---:idea: lets here your take on the 7 hills

Theolog I believe the whore is apostate Israel.

e4e---Why?:huh:

[Lion]

The whore of Revelation 17

There has been considerable discussion among Bible scholars surrounding the dissolute character called the whore in Revelation. Who is she, and at what time in earth’s history does she appear? The whore stands in the opposite extreme to the pure woman of Rev. 12 It is our purpose to discover the answers to a number of questions about this woman.

Prelude
To set the tone of this discussion we note some characteristics in the description of these two women, and the events that take place.

The woman in Rev. 12 is pure. She is clothed with the sun, indicating purity and light, or truth. She has an enemy, a great red dragon, a seven headed monster who wants to devour the child she is about to deliver. The child escapes. The dragon is identified in Rev 12:9 as the devil and Satan. The dragon persecutes the woman and goes to make war with the last of her descendants. Later on, another seven headed beast rises up out of the sea in Rev 13. This beast seems to have a deadly wound by a sword on one of its heads, but the wound is healed, and the world worships the seven headed beast, and the dragon. The red dragon gives this beast his power and seat, and great authority. Later on this seven headed monster teams up with a lamblike beast to form an unholy alliance to kill all those who refuse to receive its mark of authority. In Rev 14, three angels warn the earth to worship God, saying the hour of God’s judgment has come and warn against receiving the mark of the beast. The tone of the messages is against worshiping the beast, warning that worshiping the beast will result in receiving seven plagues poured out an unrepentant earth. The vials of the plagues are poured out in chapters 15 and 16, followed by the second coming of Christ.

The story unfolds
Rev. 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

One of the seven angels talks to John, saying, come here, I want to show you what will happen to the great whore that sits on many waters. This scene follows sequentially after the plagues have been poured out. The question arises, who is the whore, and what do the waters represent? This is answered in verse 15.

Rev. 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

The whore is pictured as sitting on nations and peoples. When people sit, they sit on a support of some kind. Evidently the nations are, or have been, supporting the whore. We must make a distinction between the religious entity of the whore and the political entity of the beast. As we shall see later on, the whore represents the apostate reigious powers of the earth since the fall of man. She is not the pure woman of Rev 12, fallen. She is a dissolute character, and always has been.

Rev. 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

We need to define whoredom and fornication in the sense in which God views it.

Ex. 34:15 Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice;
And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods.

God views idolatry as whoredom. Fornication is a similar word. We read of king Jehoram:

2Chr. 21:11 Moreover he made high places in the mountains of Judah, and caused the inhabitants of Jerusalem to commit fornication, and compelled Judah thereto.

They were worshiping idols. The whore is evidently any entity that worships false gods, from the first sin on.

Rev. 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness:. . .

The angel carries John into the wilderness. In Rev 12, the woman fled into the wilderness, where she was protected from the wrath of the dragon. That was the uninhabited regions of the earth, the mountain regions of the earth, and later on to America, where the papal armies could not reach. But this wilderness is not place of refuge from the dragon This woman is sitting on the same sort of animal that the two seven-headed creatures mentioned before. But this beast is different in appearance.

Why is this called a wilderness? The events immediately preceding give us a clue. The seven last plagues have fallen and a mighty earthquake has shaken the very foundations of the earth with the arrival of Christ. Jeremiah describes the scene:

Jer. 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void;(toho bohu) and the heavens, and they had no light.
I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

This is describing the scene following the Lord’s return. The words formless and void (tohu bohu) used in Jeremiah 4 also occur in Gen 1:2, the only other place where the expression is used. The earth has evidently been returned the formless state it was before creation.

v 3. . .and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast,

A scarlet colored beast must be related to the red dragon.
Is. 1:18 ¶ “Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the LORD,
“Though your sins are as scarlet,
They will be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson,
They will be like wool.

This beast has something written on it. This is not the same as the beast of Rev 13. That beast had names of blasphemy on its heads, this one has the names all over it.

....full of names of blasphemy,

What is blasphemy? The Jews accused Jesus, the son of God, of blasphemy.

John 10:33 The Jews answered Him, For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.
Mark 2:7 Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?

The forgiveness of sins is God's privilege, not any man. On of the marks of the Catholic church is the confessional, where the priest pretends to forgive sins.

. . . .having seven heads and ten horns.

Seven heads and ten horns. This is a beast like the others, with a difference. The red dragon in chapter 12 had a crown on each head. The beast of Rev 13 had a crown on each horn. The Greek word for both is diadema, meaning a kingly crown. But this beast has no crowns on either heads or horns.

At this point we need to notice some of the identifying marks of the animals. The red dragon of Rev 12 was cast out of heaven. It is identified im Rev 12:9 as the devil and Satan. This dragon had seven heads and ten horns, with a crown on each head. The beast that came out of the sea in Rev 13:1 has seven heads and ten horns, with a crown on each horn, in Rev 17:3 but this scarlet colored beast has no crowns on either heads or horns. As such it seems to be without any kingly appearance.

It is a principle in prophecy that no power is brought into view unless it has something to do with God's chosen people. Satan has always opposed God’s rule on earth. The red dragon's seven heads with crowns evidently were seven successive forms of government through the history of the earth that were in opposition to the people of God, Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Grecia, pagan Rome, and papal Rome. The red dragon in Rev 12, the beast from the sea in Rev 13, and the scarlet colored beast in Rev 17 are simply manifestations of the same satanic power that was manifested in the garden of Eden. Satan controls the political powers and also the apostate churches. As the history of the earth unfolded, Satan's opposition to God was displayed in various forms of government, and the religious beliefs of the people.

Rev. 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls,

The kings of the earth often wear a purple cloak, and are adorned with gold and pecious stones. When Berthier took the pope prisoner in 1798, He took five hundred wagon loads of rubies, diamonds, sapphires, and art objects to France. The Vatican has gained incredible wealth since that time. Malachi Martin, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Church, p233

From an insignificant group of 25,000 adherents, shepherded by thirty poor priests in 1789, the Catholic Church of America has grown to be a congregation of 20,000,000, led by thirty thousand priests. From being propertyless, she has become a rich institution. whose wealth exceeds two billion dollars.. From being a. despised, and scattered flock, she has become the most perfectly organized. body in the world enjoying immense influence and power. E. Boyd Barrett, Rome Stoops to Conquer, Julian Messner, Inc, 1935, p1 In the last 65 years, the Catholic church has grown to immense holdings.

having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

We have already discussed fornication as idolatry. God considers His pure church as being his bride, a virgin pure and chaste.

Rev. 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

The Catholic church claims to be the mother church, and rightly so, because when the churches separated in the Protestant Reformation, they kept many of the trappings of the catholic church, Sunday worship and belief in the immortality of the soul. But this is more than the Catholic church. The harlotry existed long before the Roman church existed, as we noted previously.

Rev. 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken from the blood of the saints, and from the blood of the witnesses of Jesus, and I did wonder — having seen her — with great wonder; (Young)

There were millions of martyrs slain during the nearly thirteen centuries of papal supremacy. But that was not all. Untold nunbers of others gave their lives through the ages standing for the true God. John marveled.

Rev. 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

The angel is about to reveal the mystery of the woman, and the beast that carries her. The woman is a church, in this case, a false church. The beast that carries her is a civil power, so the combination is a religious power, supported by a state. The number seven denotes completeness, the entire array of evil from the entrance of sin until the end.

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not;

The beast that you saw used to exist, but doesn't any more. Why? Because, as John is seeing it, it has been killed. All the people who made up the civil and religious power were slain by Christ's glory.

....and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit

We have to define bottomless pit. The words bottomless pit occur here and and in one other place, Rev 20

Rev. 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

The term bottomless pit is the Greek word abussos. It is where we get our word abyss, meaning something deep, cavernous, or like the Grand Canyon. The Septuagint uses the word to describe the earth in its chaotic state before creation.

Satan is bound in the bottomless pit, the earth in its destroyed state after Christ's coming. He cannot leave, and there is no one alive but Satan and his evil angels. He is bound by a chain of circumstances. He cannot tempt any one because there is no one alive to be tempted.

Back to Rev 17:8
and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

But the angel tells John that the beast will ascend out of the bottomless pit. Rev 20:3 says after the 1000 years he will be loosed for a little season. How is he loosed? He is bound by having no one to tempt, so the wicked that were slain by the brightness of Christ’s coming must be resurrected. That is the case, as we read in Rev. 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

After the 1000 years the wicked are resurrected.

Rev. 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Satan was bound by having no one to tempt, but now he has someone to tempt. Hordes of people, all the wicked who have ever lived, will be alive on the earth at the same time. Giants who had lived for nearly a thousand years before the flood are there. Warriors who never lost a battle are there. Satan marshals the host for an assault on the New Jerusalem, that giant city, 375 miles on a side.

Rev. 21:17 And he measured its wall, seventy-two yards, according to human measurements, which are also angelic measurements.

Seventy two yards is 216 feet high.

and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

The beast is an organization of people. Death is an unconscious state. A man once suffered a fall and became unconsious. He was aware that he started to fall, and remembers nothing of what happened until he saw firemen standing there, looking at him. When Christ appears the wicked will be killed by the brightness of His coming. They will be unaware of anything more until they wake up at the second resurrection. The current of their thoughts will resume exactly where it left off when they were killed. Their thoughts and desires will be motivated by the same reasoning as before. They want to kill the those whom they blame for troubling the earth. But the supposed enemies they hated will be safe in the giant city they can see sitting there.

Rev. 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Seven mountains. God says of the righteous, they shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain Isa 65:25 There are fourteen references where God refers to his kingdom as a mountain. So a mountain is a kingdom. The whore sits on, or is supported by, seven kingdoms. The kingdom of God is spoken as a holy mounain. It seems natural that the whore, being a church in seven periods of time, would consider her spere of influence as also being holy This makes sense, since the seven heads were seven kingdoms, and when the second resurrection takes place all seven kingdoms will be present at the same time.

Rev. 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

The angel alludes to John's situation, the period of John's life. Five of these kingdoms are in the past, Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia and Grecia have ceased to exist. One, pagan Rome, was ruling in John's day. Papal Rome had not come. The short space of the next kingdom has to be viewed from God's perspective. Papal Rome exists today, nearly 2,000 years later, but from God's vantage point, it is a short time.

Rev. 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

The eighth. The new power John is seeing is the eighth, formed of all seven because all seven former kingdoms are now alive. But they will be destroyed.

Rev. 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

There are four ten horned beasts in Bible prophecy. In Daniel 7 the ten horns represent the divisions in the breakup of the Roman empire These ten kings were depicted as continuing until the end of time, until the judgment took away their dominion. The number ten probably does not represent an exact number. Rather, it probably represents completeness, as all the fingers of a complete man’s hands. The ten horns on the red dragon, the beast from the sea, and the beast that carries the whore, in all probability represents the totality of all governments on earth.

Rev. 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
Rev. 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

How can they make war with God? In death they experienced no change. When resurrected their thoughts resume exactly where they were as they died. They surround the city when suddenly every eye is fixed on a spectacle above the city.

Rev. 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

The spectacle is awe inspiring. Every person realizes where he has rebelled against God and has to admit his guilt. These leaders are forced to admit their rebellion.

Rev. 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

The kings realize their cause is hopeless and they turn against Satan and his henchmen. But they have realized too late that they are doomed.

Rev. 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This is hell fire of the very hottest kind.

It sounds like a vengeful god who takes delight in roasting immortal souls throughout ceaseless ages. But when we compare other texts we find a different view.

Mal. 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal. 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal. 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

All the proud. . .shall be stubble
Niether root nor branch
Tread down the wicked . . .They shall be ashes

What shall we say, then? What does this do to the doctrine of eternal torment for the wicked? Does this agree with the picture of a loving God, a god who says he has no pleasure in the death of the wicked?

The facts are that neither the Greeks nor the Hebrews had any means of expressing large numbers. Mathematics had not evolved to express the concept of infinity or to multiply or divide. Hebrew and Greek and Latin used letters to represent numbers. How can you divide Roman numeral M by two and get D? Or CM (900) and get CCCCL (450)?

As an example of the method the Greeks used to express large numbers:

Rev. 9:16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

John could not express two hundred million. The words he used were dismurias murias dismurias murias. By the same reasoning, he could not express the idea that the smoke rose until there was nothing left to burn.

Rev. 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

What purpose would God have in a recitation of such horrors? Simply this: God does not desire that any person should suffer the horrible death we have just described. He wants to warn everyone of the fate of the disobedient. In Rev 18, God repeats the warning:

Rev. 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Rev. 18:4 ¶ I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;

That great city is called Babylon. Babylon was the original city of rebellion against God, where God confused the languages of men to scatter them over the face of the earth.

After the fires of the last day, the universe has been cleansed of the stain of sin. Never more shall iniquity rise up. All is peace and harmony. In the new earth the loftiest goals can be reached, the greatest ambitions gained.

[Hitch]

If you can think of a greater abomination that the regicice let me know . If you cant its first century Jerusalem.

[Lion]

Hitch, the abominations committed in Jerusalem stagger the imagination, but the abominations in Jerusalem in AD 70 are included in the description of the whore. Bad as they were, they are included and form a small part of the total picture. The whore is represented as the woman that arises out of the bottomless pit AFTER the 1000 years. Read my last post again. It presents an entirely different picture of the the millenium than most churches teach.

[Hitch]

Hitch, the abominations committed in Jerusalem stagger the imagination, but the abominations in Jerusalem in AD 70 are included in the description of the whore. Bad as they were, they are included and form a small part of the total picture. The whore is represented as the woman that arises out of the bottomless pit AFTER the 1000 years. Read my last post again. It presents an entirely different picture of the the millenium than most churches teach.
Actually Lion, God likes vengeance so much He keeps that for Himself. And still you need to come up with something more abomidable than the regicide.

[Hitch]

La Rubia

e4e---:idea: lets here your take on the 7 hills

Theolog

e4e---Why?:huh: I believe the whore is apostate Israel.
Rev 18:24
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
(KJV)



Hmmmmmm,,, Maybe this has a familiar ring?



Matt 23:34-37
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
(KJV)

[jesterbr549]

You know, the problem with understanding who the Whore is is compounded by the fact that all these people pick and chose the descriptions from the Word that suits their specific theological position, and discard the rest of the Scriptural descriptions of who the woman is.

For instance, they make much of Revelation 17 and the colors of the woman etc, but they totally ignore the fact that John specifically stated that the Angel took him OUT INTO THE WILDERNESS to see this Whore.

Neither Rome, New York, Washington DC, Edinburg or Jerusalem (all of which have been called the Whore) reside in the Wilderness.

Period.

Further, they totally ignore the statement of the Angel when he specifically stated that he would show them THE MYSTERY concerning THE WOMAN.

The Woman is Babylon and the mystery is that it is going to be rebuilt.

According to the Theologians a MYSTERY in the Word is something that is CONCEALED in the Old Testament and REVEALED in the New Testament. It is concealed in Zechariah where the two STORKS (unclean birds - apostate Christianity and apostate Judaism) take the Basket case woman back to the Plains of Shinar to set it ON ITS OWN BASE. These words were spoken after the SUPOSED destruction of Babylon by the Medes and Persians. Thus the Angel REVEALED the REBUILDING of Babylon in the New Testament, which still remains a MYSTERY through unbelief at the clear teaching of the Word.

Babylon, according to Ezekial and Jeremiah was in the WILDERNESS.

The Civilization that originated in the Plains of Shinar still rule the world to this day.

Just why do you supose that America went to Afghanistan? So that they could rebuild the ancient Silk Road (thorugh the Tyber Pass) that leads from ASIA to BABYLON and now a trip that took FOUR DAYS only takes about FOUR HOURS.

Why do you supose that America is IN BABYLON NOW?

[ross3421]

Revelation 17





Revelation 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will show unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

The great whore, who is she? She is given the name in verse 5, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

In verse 4 the angel shows the wealth of the whore and she has receive that wealth by performing her service to the beast. It is a service upon which the beast relies. This gives the whore authority over the beast. The beast had become dependant on the whore and so the whore exercises authority over the beast, . The whore exercises her authority not by might but by the influence of the services she provides to the beast which has become dependent on those services. The whore set upon many waters.
Revelation 17:15 And he said unto me, The waters which thou saw, where the whore sit, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Though the beast is a willing participant the peoples multitudes and nations are not. They are made to partake of the services of the beast by the actions of the beast.

Revelation 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus:---

This whore was very wealthy and made makes her living at the expense of the innocent and in collaboration with governments. She set upon government. She was not the government. From her appearance one could deduce a financial system that governments relied upon. It is the governments that were in the position of servitude to the whore. The whore was not holding up the government but the governments was holding up the whore. The whore is the master of the governments by her ability to produce wealth for the beast and to herself. The wealth that the beast and the whore received came from those who were victimized by the beast with the polices of the whore. The beast were not victims but co-conspirators to steel the wealth of nations. The reason that the whore killed the saints and the martyrs of Jesus is that they possessed the truth that could exposed the whore. The whore if exposed would lose her power and death did not deter the saints or the martyrs for Jesus.

MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. This is very critical. This is not the Babylonian government but that which the Babylonian government relied. It was not the government itself. King Nebuchanizzar displayed his innermost character and it was this mystery that fed that character and caused its display for the masses.

Daniel 3:1 Nebuchadnezzar the king made an image of gold, whose height was threescore cubits, and the breadth thereof six cubits: he set it up in the plain of Dura, in the province of Babylon.
2 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king sent to gather together the princes, the governors, and the captains, the judges, the treasurers, the counsellors, the sheriffs, and all the rulers of the provinces, to come to the dedication of the image which Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up.
3 Then the princes, the governors, and captains, the judges, the treasurers, the counsellors, the sheriffs, and all the rulers of the provinces, were gathered together unto the dedication of the image that Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up; and they stood before the image that Nebuchadnezzar had set up.
4 Then an herald cried aloud, To you it is commanded, O people, nations, and languages,
5 That at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king hath set up:
6 And whoso falleth not down and worshippeth shall the same hour be cast into the midst of a burning fiery furnace.
7 Therefore at that time, when all the people heard the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and all kinds of musick, all the people, the nations, and the languages, fell down and worshipped the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up.

This is the way that the Mystery Babylon displayed it self. It seeks to kill all those who will not buy into its system and consequently the blood of the saints was found in her.

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goes into perdition.

Now for the beast with the seven heads and ten horns.. The 9th. Verse says that the 7 heads are seven mountains. It is a well known fact that Rome sets on seven mountains. This I do not think is the proper understanding that should be give to this passage. The reason is this. The whore is the Mystery Babylon so the whore was sitting on Babylon giving the prospective of World power of which Babylon and Rome are both one off. The first six empires that dominated the then known world are 1.Chaldean, 2 Egyptian 3 Babylonian, 4 Medo-Persia, 5 Grecian, 6 Roman, 7.----, 8.------. The scripture does not say who #7 is but we do know that # 8 is the Mystery Babylon. The beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goes into perdition. The king that is, is Rome. Rome was in power at the time of the giving of this prophecy.

The beast that was and is not is Babylon, not Rome. Babylon is also one of the seven and will be the 8th.. It is Babylon were the image of Satan was made and covered with gold and was ordered to be worshiped.

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou saw are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

It is important to remember from the outset that the Ten nations that had not received there kingdom as yet gave there power to the beast, not the whore. The whore existed through all 7 empires. The 7 world empires are in fact the beast. These 7 world empires dominate the middle east and not the globe If one wants to know who the 7th empire is then one must look at who is the empire that dominates the middle east before the rise of Mystery Babylon who is called the whore or the woman setting on the beast.

The ten kings are in existence today. These are the kingdoms that will be involved at Armageddon at the return of Christ Jesus. They are the Fundamental Islamic nations of the Middle east who receive there power from the beast but hate the oppressive international monetary system and the 10 nations will destroy the international monetary system. Verse 14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Rev. 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

The whore or Mystery Babylon is that spirit that suppress and oppresses nations. That Spirit cannot function unless there are those who willingly accept its leadership for the sake of wealth and power that she brings to her subjects. The 8th empire will be run by such people and it is called Babylon. The seven are ruthless enough to us there power without moral conscience to accomplish there end. The monetary system that supports the 7 kings or mountains will be destroyed by the 10 nations that have not received there kingdoms. This will cause extreme hardship, famine and death. The system that binds the beast, peoples and nations to the will of the whore is the International monetary system. A system of debt that obligates nations to one supply of money. When this house of cards falls the economic fallout will be extreme. The 7th king (nation) falls and opens the way for the New Babylon, the 8th king who makes war on the Lamb. This is Armageddon. The final conflict that ends with the return of Christ.

Rev.17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

It is apparent that the Mystery Babylon is a global system. A hidden system. It is also apparent that this system is a economic system that holds sway over the hearts of men and rewards them with capital gain. The affairs of men and government are ruled by the whore and all decisions are made to feed the appetite of the whore. If you will notice the 10 nations receive there power from the beast, not the whore. The beast has sway as government over the nations. The ten nations hate the whore not the governments. Why was the twin towers struck? It was not an attack on the United States but an attack on the whore. The whore is the invisible world economic system that reduces nations to slavery by debt. The United States is the enforcer of the world economic system. When the international monetary system is destroyed by the 10 kings there will be no way to defend Israel and they will gather at a place call Armageddon where Jesus will intervene and destroy the beast, the whore and the 10 nations.

Hi,

I would have to say your way off base.....

Read the attach and we can have a further discussion....

In Christ, Mark.