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TheWall
10-22-2016, 07:30 AM
If babies can think and feel that proves that they are not only alive but cognizant.
So is there any evidence that babies can do these things?

37818
10-22-2016, 08:00 AM
A babies are learning words before they are born.
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2013/08/babies-learn-recognize-words-womb

The ability to hear begins by the 18th week.
http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/pregnancy-week-by-week/in-depth/fetal-development/art-20046151

TheWall
10-22-2016, 08:31 AM
Cool.

Teallaura
10-22-2016, 09:11 AM
If babies can think and feel that proves that they are not only alive but cognizant.
So is there any evidence that babies can do these things?


There's no evidence for cognizant thought on the Internet - maybe we should take the fact that babies in utero don't use the Internet as evidence of cognition?

Jedidiah
10-22-2016, 09:53 AM
Whether babies in utereo have enough experience to have real meaningful thoughts does not really matter. Our thinking is primarily based upon experience so lack of thinking, or reduced levels of thinking. only point to the experience limiting factor of still being in the womb. This does not have any bearing on supporting the abortion issue.

I understand, Wall, that this was not in any way your intent. Just me making the point.

37818
10-22-2016, 09:55 AM
Are babies after they are born void of cognizant thought? Why not?

https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/199809/fetal-psychology

Christianbookworm
10-22-2016, 11:23 AM
Their thoughts/dreams would likely be much different than ours due to lack of language and visual stimulation. My tounge in cheek reason for why we don't remember our early years is that it's in a different format that can't be accessed by an older brain. Meaning that if a child had the language skills to tell you what the were thinking, they likely could not tell you what they were thinking when they were little babies. A 32(34?) week fetus is psychologically the same as a newborn, but they still have some developing to do. And the passive immunity shot from mom is in the last few weeks of pregnancy.

Cow Poke
10-22-2016, 12:20 PM
Their thoughts/dreams would likely be much different than ours due to lack of language and visual stimulation. My tounge in cheek reason for why we don't remember our early years is that it's in a different format that can't be accessed by an older brain. Meaning that if a child had the language skills to tell you what the were thinking, they likely could not tell you what they were thinking when they were little babies. A 32(34?) week fetus is psychologically the same as a newborn, but they still have some developing to do. And the passive immunity shot from mom is in the last few weeks of pregnancy.

That's kinda weird, but, at the same time, if babies thought like we do, they would be horrified that they were confined to such a small space. Yeah, I'm claustrophobic.

DesertBerean
10-22-2016, 12:32 PM
John the Baptist leaped in his mother's womb at the sound of Mary's voice.

TheWall
10-22-2016, 12:33 PM
I mean babies may not be able to analyze things but they can feel. They feel love. They feel pain.
If they can do that how can people justify abortion?

Christianbookworm
10-22-2016, 12:45 PM
I mean babies may not be able to analyze things but they can feel. They feel love. They feel pain.
If they can do that how can people justify abortion?

They don't see them. For some reason, people can't see how much trouble they will be in for hurting/killing the least of us.

Christianbookworm
10-22-2016, 12:47 PM
That's kinda weird, but, at the same time, if babies thought like we do, they would be horrified that they were confined to such a small space. Yeah, I'm claustrophobic.

They don't know any different. Little babies actually like being swaddled/held snugly. It reminds them of the womb where they were never hungry, cold, or thirsty. that doesn't mean there's no stress though. If Mom is stressed, junior will be stressed also due to stress hormones crossing over to him/her.

TheWall
10-22-2016, 12:47 PM
I mean with adoption being available I just cant see it. The baby can go to a good home.

Christianbookworm
10-22-2016, 12:51 PM
I mean with adoption being available I just cant see it. The baby can go to a good home.

There's a lot of misinformation. Newborn babies have the highest demand for being adopted. You know how every wants a puppy or kitten, so the older dogs and cats end up not getting adopted? Similar thing with children. Except no one is advocating murdering foster children who aren't adopted. I hope that NEVER HAPPENS!

lilpixieofterror
10-22-2016, 02:39 PM
That's kinda weird, but, at the same time, if babies thought like we do, they would be horrified that they were confined to such a small space. Yeah, I'm claustrophobic.

If it's all you have ever known; I suppose it wouldn't be so bad. :shrug:

lilpixieofterror
10-22-2016, 02:42 PM
If babies can think and feel that proves that they are not only alive but cognizant.
So is there any evidence that babies can do these things?

Depends on how you are defining 'thought'. Complex ideas and problem solving, most likely not. Basic reactions to the world around them, most likely yes.

Cow Poke
10-22-2016, 02:52 PM
Depends on how you are defining 'thought'. Complex ideas and problem solving, most likely not. Basic reactions to the world around them, most likely yes.

Because it's a learning / growing process. :smile:

lilpixieofterror
10-22-2016, 02:59 PM
Because it's a learning / growing process. :smile:

Pretty much. I've had the pleasure of holding/taking care of quite a few newborns and I can say that even at that young age, there's differences in how they act and react to things around them. I doubt they are having complex ideas about the world around them, but it is pretty obvious that at least some wheels are turning in their head.

Christianbookworm
10-22-2016, 03:00 PM
Babies do seem to have an innate understanding of how some physics things work. If you make it look like something impossible has occurred(say, a block on the very edge of a table that should be falling to the ground), babies will look longer than of the block is balanced on the edge of the table.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRxvw0j4B3A

But they couldn't understand the math behind the physics. And little kids can still be confused.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLj0IZFLKvg

Although, these kids are big kids, not itty bitty babies. Since unborn babies are asleep 95%-100% of the time, it would be a very bad idea to try to wake them up to preform psychology experiments on them. Newborns do recognize stories that have been read to them in utero, though.

lilpixieofterror
10-22-2016, 03:13 PM
Babies do seem to have an innate understanding of how some physics things work. If you make it look like something impossible has occurred(say, a block on the very edge of a table that should be falling to the ground), babies will look longer than of the block is balanced on the edge of the table.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRxvw0j4B3A

But they couldn't understand the math behind the physics. And little kids can still be confused.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLj0IZFLKvg

Although, these kids are big kids, not itty bitty babies. Since unborn babies are asleep 95%-100% of the time, it would be a very bad idea to try to wake them up to preform psychology experiments on them. Newborns do recognize stories that have been read to them in utero, though.

That's mainly because not all science nor math is intuitive and sometimes can be counter-intuitive.

Christianbookworm
10-22-2016, 03:53 PM
If newborns prefer books that have been read during pregnancy, would they likely enjoy their older sibling's favorite book that they had mom read every night? What's funny is that two of my nieces(about to be three in that family) both like to sing twinkle twinkle little star. I think the one year old got that song from her three year old big sister. And the three year old is excited to have a new baby sister. I don't know what here definition of baby is though, since she doesn't think the middle sister is a baby anymore. Well, she told me she was getting a baby sister when the other sister was 12 months old, so I had some confusion to as what she meant by having a baby sister.

Cow Poke
10-22-2016, 03:57 PM
I remember something about playing classical music for your baby while in the womb, and somehow that helps 'map' the baby's brain for math, since music and math are so intricately entwined. :shrug:

Christianbookworm
10-22-2016, 04:03 PM
I remember something about playing classical music for your baby while in the womb, and somehow that helps 'map' the baby's brain for math, since music and math are so intricately entwined. :shrug:

That might not be the best idea. Would you play classical music in a newborn's bassinet? Don't wake the baby!

Cow Poke
10-22-2016, 04:08 PM
That might not be the best idea. Would you play classical music in a newborn's bassinet? Don't wake the baby!

Ya don't have to BLAST it. :glare:

http://www.babycenter.com/0_music-and-your-unborn-child_6547.bc

KingsGambit
10-22-2016, 04:10 PM
That might not be the best idea. Would you play classical music in a newborn's bassinet? Don't wake the baby!

Yep.

Christianbookworm
10-22-2016, 04:28 PM
As long as it's not too loud...

Oh, if anyone was wondering, I also have another three year old niece who has a baby sister that's almost 6 months. I'm pretty offended that Starlight thinks three of my nieces would be okay to put down like a dog! Grrr...

rogue06
10-22-2016, 04:41 PM
If babies can think and feel that proves that they are not only alive but cognizant.
So is there any evidence that babies can do these things?
Apparently, yes. Researchers from the Cognitive Brain Research Unit, Cognitive Science, Institute of Behavioral Sciences, University of Helsinki, published a paper in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America, which is the official scientific journal of the National Academy of Sciences, back in 2013 that indicates babies actually learn to recognize words while still in the womb:


Significance

Learning, the foundation of adaptive and intelligent behavior, is based on changes in neural assemblies and reflected by the modulation of electric brain responses. In infancy, long-term memory traces are formed by auditory learning, improving discrimination skills, in particular those relevant for speech perception and understanding. Here we show direct neural evidence that neural memory traces are formed by auditory learning prior to birth. Our findings indicate that prenatal experiences have a remarkable influence on the brainís auditory discrimination accuracy, which may support, for example, language acquisition during infancy. Consequently, our results also imply that it might be possible to support early auditory development and potentially compensate for difficulties of genetic nature, such as language impairment or dyslexia.



Source (http://www.pnas.org/content/110/37/15145.full)



[*Full paper available at link above*]

This goes along with an earlier study conducted by a team of American, Canadian and Chinese researchers from about a decade earlier that babies learn to recognize the voice of their mother while still in the womb


Abstract

The ability of human fetuses to recognize their own mother's voice was examined. Sixty term fetuses were assigned to one of two conditions during which they were exposed to a tape recording of their mother or a female stranger reading a passage. Voice stimuli were delivered through a loudspeaker held approximately 10 cm above the maternal abdomen and played at an average of 95 dB SPL. Each condition consisted of three 2-min periods: no stimulus, voice (mother or stranger), and no stimulus. Fetal heart rate increased in response to the mother's voice and decreased in response to the stranger's; both responses were sustained for 4 min. The finding of differential behavior in response to a familiar versus a novel voice provides evidence that experience influences fetal voice processing. It supports an epigenetic model of speech perception, presuming an interaction between genetic expression of neural development and species-specific experience.


Source (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/10764140_Effects_of_Experience_on_Fetal_Voice_Reco gnition)



This latter research was verified in 2013 by a team from Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine in Baltimore, Maryland


Abstract

Knowledge about prenatal learning has been largely predicated on the observation that newborns appear to recognize the maternal voice. Few studies have examined the process underlying this phenomenon;thatis, whether and how the fetus responds tomaternal voice in situ. Fetal heart rate and motor activity were recorded at 36 weeks gestation (n = 69) while pregnant women read aloud from a neutral passage. Compared to a baseline period, fetuses responded with a decrease in motor activity in the 10 s following onset of maternal speech and a trend level decelerative heart rate response, consistent with an orienting response. Subsequent analyses revealed that the fetal response was modified by both maternal and fetal factors. Fetuses of women who were previously awake and talking (n = 40) showed an orienting response to onset of maternal reading aloud, while fetuses of mothers who had previously been resting and silent (n = 29) responded with elevated heart rate and increased movement. The magnitude of the fetal response was further dependent on baseline fetal heart rate variability such that largest response was demonstrated by fetuses with low variability of mothers who were previously resting and silent. Results indicate that fetal responsivity is affected by both maternal and fetal state and have implications for understanding fetal learning of the maternal voice under naturalistic conditions


Source (http://www.jhsph.edu/research/centers-and-institutes/johns-hopkins-fetal-development-project/_materials/_publications/maternalspokenvoice.pdf)



[*Full paper available at link above*]

rogue06
10-22-2016, 04:47 PM
I remember something about playing classical music for your baby while in the womb, and somehow that helps 'map' the baby's brain for math, since music and math are so intricately entwined. :shrug:
Debatable or maybe just over-hyped :nsm:

Fact or Fiction?: Babies Exposed to Classical Music End Up Smarter (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fact-or-fiction-babies-ex/)

Christianbookworm
10-22-2016, 05:02 PM
Can those who purposefully and with full knowledge of what they are doing when they harm/kill fetuses/babies/toddlers and don't repent be sentenced to an eternity of hearing the recording of a screaming infant. The type of scream that a baby in extreme pain makes. Oh, and have the victims tell their murderer that they are a mean person for hurting them.

Carrikature
10-22-2016, 05:09 PM
They don't know any different. Little babies actually like being swaddled/held snugly. It reminds them of the womb where they were never hungry, cold, or thirsty. that doesn't mean there's no stress though. If Mom is stressed, junior will be stressed also due to stress hormones crossing over to him/her.

They certainly have basic reactions even in the womb, but there's not much reason to consider that anything like actual thought.

rogue06
10-22-2016, 05:15 PM
That might not be the best idea. Would you play classical music in a newborn's bassinet? Don't wake the baby!
Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture including cannon fire :hehe:

Christianbookworm
10-22-2016, 05:20 PM
They certainly have basic reactions even in the womb, but there's not much reason to consider that anything like actual thought.

Define thought. Do you need a language first? Don't you also need to be self-aware?

Christianbookworm
10-22-2016, 05:21 PM
Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture including cannon fire :hehe:

You will then be in charge of getting the baby calmed down and back to sleep...

rogue06
10-22-2016, 05:25 PM
You will then be in charge of getting the baby calmed down and back to sleep...
Naw, just crank up Rossini's William Tell Overture loud enough until you can't hear the crying.

















Can you guess I don't have any kids?

Christianbookworm
10-22-2016, 05:26 PM
Naw, just crank up Rossini's William Tell Overture loud enough until you can't hear the crying.

















Can you guess I don't have any kids?

You aren't allowed to babysit your younger relatives anymore, are you?

Cow Poke
10-22-2016, 05:28 PM
You aren't allowed to babysit your younger relatives anymore, are you?

It was that incident where he decided to try out his new chili recipe on the babies.

rogue06
10-22-2016, 05:30 PM
You aren't allowed to babysit your younger relatives anymore, are you?
Actually, I get asked repeatedly by friends and relatives. They all keep telling me how I would make an excellent father. I know better.

rogue06
10-22-2016, 05:31 PM
It was that incident where he decided to try out his new chili recipe on the babies.
And here I thought it was my Tequila for Kids idea :shrug:

Jedidiah
10-22-2016, 05:32 PM
Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture including cannon fire :hehe:

That might be a bit much. But there is a lot of classical music that is not loud.

Cow Poke
10-22-2016, 05:33 PM
Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture including cannon fire :hehe:

Otherwise known as the "this is the cereal that's shot from guns" music. :smile:

Jedidiah
10-22-2016, 05:35 PM
They certainly have basic reactions even in the womb, but there's not much reason to consider that anything like actual thought.

You can only think about what you know about. A baby's experience is quite limited, so their thinking would be quite limited. If you deny the baby is actually thinking, then you have to come up with some magical point at which what goes on is now real thinking. This is too much like the magical point of attaining personhood for my way of thinking.

Edited to add the word magical, and the final sentence.

Christianbookworm
10-22-2016, 05:37 PM
I heard that the kids decided to go do some experiments at Roguetech. They may have gotten super powers. Or just ended up at the hospital..

Christianbookworm
10-22-2016, 05:39 PM
You can only think about what you know about. A baby's experience is quite limited, so their thinking would be quite limited. If you deny the baby is actually thinking, then you have to come up with some point at which what goes on is now real thinking.

It probably depends on the kid. And it would presumably be gradual. A zygote or embryo can't be thinking about anything. A three year old child is clearly thinking. But you can't pinpoint a day when a baby magically starts to think.

rogue06
10-22-2016, 06:57 PM
I heard that the kids decided to go do some experiments at Roguetech. They may have gotten super powers. Or just ended up at the hospital..
They are not mutually exclusive

Carrikature
10-23-2016, 01:21 PM
Define thought. Do you need a language first? Don't you also need to be self-aware?

There's not a real definition for 'thought'. Call it a linking together of discrete events. Rudimentary thought may be as simple as anticipating cause-effect. You don't need language or self-awareness to have thought. There are plenty of non-human animals that we believe can think without having either one.

Carrikature
10-23-2016, 01:28 PM
You can only think about what you know about. A baby's experience is quite limited, so their thinking would be quite limited.

Agreed.



If you deny the baby is actually thinking, then you have to come up with some magical point at which what goes on is now real thinking. This is too much like the magical point of attaining personhood for my way of thinking.

Edited to add the word magical, and the final sentence.

I don't think we could say they have thoughts in the womb. Perceptions are too limited for that. I'd expect they start having rudimentary thought shortly after birth, though it might be a few days or weeks. Newborns figure out pretty quickly that crying gets them attention, though.