Daniel 11

[themuzicman]

What do you all do with Daniel 11?

If I remember correctly, this prophecy didn't happen.

Michael

[TedO]

J.P. Holding has a little on this here: http://www.tektonics.org/JPH_WWBH.html#dan

With an interesting hypothesis that the king in question is Herod the Great. hmmm....

[Robyn Banks]

themuzicman:
What do you all do with Daniel 11?

If I remember correctly, this prophecy didn't happen.

Michael
Hi Michael -

You might be referring to Daniel 11.40ff, which indeed was a prophecy that didn't happen. However, the first 39 verses of Daniel 11 did indeed "happen".

I set out below for you the (ex eventu) 'prophecies', together with what they refer to in profane history:


Daniel 11.3 - The Warrior King rules with great dominion (Alexander the Great's conquests, 333BC)

Daniel 11.4 - The kingdom was broken while rising in power, but not with the same posterity or dominion Alexander had (division of the Macedonian Empire into 4, 323BC)

Daniel 11.5 - The King of the South grows strong (Ptolemy I Soter in the Ptolemaic Empire was strong in this period, 323 - 283 BC. Two of the 4 empires affected Israel: the Seleucid in the North, and the Ptolemaic in the South.)

Daniel 11.5 - but his officer grows stronger and rules over larger realm (Seleucus acquires Asia Minor, 281BC)

Daniel 11.6 - Marriage between daughter of King of South and North. She does not retain power, and offspring do not endure. She shall be given up, together with her son and one who supported her. (Antiochus II (261-246) (Seleucid) married to Bernice (daughter of Ptolemy II). Antiochus II's divorced wife Laodice poisons him and murders Bernice and sons. Seleucus II Callinicus (son of Laodice) succeeded - 252BC)

Daniel 11.7-8 - A branch from her roots shall take the North, plundering the North (Ptolemy III Euergetes (Bernice's brother) attacked the Seleucid realm, reaching Babylon and plundered it)

Daniel 11.9 - King of North invades the South and retreats (Antiochus III the Great, 223-187BC)

Daniel 11.10 - His sons will continue the war as far as the South's fortress (Battle of Raphia, 217BC)

Daniel 11.11 - The King of the South attacks and wins (Ptolemy IV is victorious, but settles for peace)

Daniel 11.13-14 - The King of the North will again bring an army to the South, Many shall rise up against the South at this time, including the Jews - but they shall fail. ( Antiochus III consolidates his army; Ptolemy IV dies in 203; alliance with Phillip V of Macedonia)

Daniel 11.15 - King of North takes a well- fortified city ( Capture of Sidon)

Daniel 11.16 - Then he takes the "beautiful land" (Seleucids take possession of Judah and Jerusalem, 198BC)

Daniel 11.17 - The King of North will give South a wife, but the alliance will fail (Wishing to extend influence ot Egypt, Antiochus III gives his daughter Cleopatra to Ptolemy V; but Egypt makes an alliance with Rome)

Daniel 11.18-19 - The North takes the coastlands. A Commander shall put an end to it. The King of the North returns to his own land (Antiochus moves to Greece. Defeated by Romans, and made to pay crippling tribute, 191BC)

Daniel 11.19-20 - King of North dies. He is replaced for a short time by an official who does not die in battle. (Assassinated at Bel, Elymais in attempt to rob Temple there, 187BC. Tax collector Heliodorus (after visit to Palestine to collect tribute) involved in plot to kill Seleucus IV)

Daniel 11.21-22 - In his place is the rise of a contemptible person. Comes in without warning. Gains kingdom by intrigue; without majesty. Armies to be swept away before him. (Antiochus IV Epiphanes, 175-163BC. He is implicated in the death of Seleucus IV and other rightful rivals to power, including Seleucus IV's son)

Daniel 11.22 - Antiochus IV's armies break prince of covenant as well. (Antiochus' invasion of Israel)

Daniel 11.23 - after an alliance is made with Antiochus IV, he shall act deceitfully and become strong with a small party. (Chooses Jason and Tobiad family after death of Onias III as high priest)

Daniel 11.25 - Wages war against King of South (Egyptian campaign)

Daniel 11.26 - but there are plots against him by his own court (Courtiers Eylaeus and Lenaeus incited political unrest against Antiochus IV)

Daniel 11.27 - the 2 kings shall sit at the table and exchange lies; he returns to his land but sets to break the covenant (Antiochus IV & Ptolemy VI attempt to make peace)

Daniel 11.29 - Returns to South, but defeated by ships of Kittim (Returns to attack Egypt, but Rome came to Egypt's aid)

Daniel 11.30-39 - Enraged, he shall turn against those who forsake the holy covenant. Forces profane temple; he abolishes burnt offering; set up abomination of desolation. King speaks horrendous things against God, and even pays no respect to own gods. (Troops desecrate the Jerusalem Temple, alter calendar, abolish Jewish cult, sets up worship of Zeus in Temple)


Hope that helps.

Robyn Banks

[Robyn Banks]

Hmmmm. No reply. How odd.

Robyn Banks

[JohnStevenson]

[i]You might be referring to Daniel 11.40ff, which indeed was a prophecy that didn't happen. However, the first 39 verses of Daniel 11 did indeed
Hello Robyn,

You did an excellent job of setting forth the correlation between Daniel 11 and fulfilled history. But I would suggest that even the last several verses of that chapter continued to be fulfilled in the history of Antiochus IV and his immediate descendants, finally resulting in Israel once again becoming an independent state.

Of course, the question arises: What are we to make of the fact that Jesus described the abomination of desolation as spoken of by Daniel the prophet as an event that was still in the future? Matthew 24:15 could not be more clear -- it is going to happen again.

It did.

In A.D. 70 the Roman general Titus broke through the defenses of the city of Jerusalem and eventually broke through to the temple. It was desecrated and destroyed. To this day, there remains an abomination that effectively renders it desolate -- an abomination known today as the Dome of the Rock.

[Robyn Banks]

JohnStevenson:
You did an excellent job of setting forth the correlation between Daniel 11 and fulfilled history.
Thanks!




JohnStevenson:
But I would suggest that even the last several verses of that chapter continued to be fulfilled in the history of Antiochus IV and his immediate descendants, finally resulting in Israel once again becoming an independent state.
How so exactly? Could you please set out the correspondence between the verses and profane history.




JohnStevenson:
Of course, the question arises: What are we to make of the fact that Jesus described the abomination of desolation as spoken of by Daniel the prophet as an event that was still in the future? Matthew 24:15 could not be more clear -- it is going to happen again.
It is hardly the only verse to be given a non-literal meaning in the New Testament. A large proportion of New Testament prophecy fulfillments work according to a non-literal hermeneutic of the Old Testament.


Robyn Banks

[Nicky]

Hi Michael -

You might be referring to Daniel 11.40ff, which indeed was a prophecy that didn't happen. However, the first 39 verses of Daniel 11 did indeed "happen".

I set out below for you the (ex eventu) 'prophecies', together with what they refer to in profane history:


Daniel 11.3 - The Warrior King rules with great dominion (Alexander the Great's conquests, 333BC)

Daniel 11.4 - The kingdom was broken while rising in power, but not with the same posterity or dominion Alexander had (division of the Macedonian Empire into 4, 323BC)

Daniel 11.5 - The King of the South grows strong (Ptolemy I Soter in the Ptolemaic Empire was strong in this period, 323 - 283 BC. Two of the 4 empires affected Israel: the Seleucid in the North, and the Ptolemaic in the South.)

Daniel 11.5 - but his officer grows stronger and rules over larger realm (Seleucus acquires Asia Minor, 281BC)

Daniel 11.6 - Marriage between daughter of King of South and North. She does not retain power, and offspring do not endure. She shall be given up, together with her son and one who supported her. (Antiochus II (261-246) (Seleucid) married to Bernice (daughter of Ptolemy II). Antiochus II's divorced wife Laodice poisons him and murders Bernice and sons. Seleucus II Callinicus (son of Laodice) succeeded - 252BC)

Daniel 11.7-8 - A branch from her roots shall take the North, plundering the North (Ptolemy III Euergetes (Bernice's brother) attacked the Seleucid realm, reaching Babylon and plundered it)

Daniel 11.9 - King of North invades the South and retreats (Antiochus III the Great, 223-187BC)

Daniel 11.10 - His sons will continue the war as far as the South's fortress (Battle of Raphia, 217BC)

Daniel 11.11 - The King of the South attacks and wins (Ptolemy IV is victorious, but settles for peace)

Daniel 11.13-14 - The King of the North will again bring an army to the South, Many shall rise up against the South at this time, including the Jews - but they shall fail. ( Antiochus III consolidates his army; Ptolemy IV dies in 203; alliance with Phillip V of Macedonia)

Daniel 11.15 - King of North takes a well- fortified city ( Capture of Sidon)

Daniel 11.16 - Then he takes the "beautiful land" (Seleucids take possession of Judah and Jerusalem, 198BC)

Daniel 11.17 - The King of North will give South a wife, but the alliance will fail (Wishing to extend influence ot Egypt, Antiochus III gives his daughter Cleopatra to Ptolemy V; but Egypt makes an alliance with Rome)

Daniel 11.18-19 - The North takes the coastlands. A Commander shall put an end to it. The King of the North returns to his own land (Antiochus moves to Greece. Defeated by Romans, and made to pay crippling tribute, 191BC)

Daniel 11.19-20 - King of North dies. He is replaced for a short time by an official who does not die in battle. (Assassinated at Bel, Elymais in attempt to rob Temple there, 187BC. Tax collector Heliodorus (after visit to Palestine to collect tribute) involved in plot to kill Seleucus IV)

Daniel 11.21-22 - In his place is the rise of a contemptible person. Comes in without warning. Gains kingdom by intrigue; without majesty. Armies to be swept away before him. (Antiochus IV Epiphanes, 175-163BC. He is implicated in the death of Seleucus IV and other rightful rivals to power, including Seleucus IV's son)

Daniel 11.22 - Antiochus IV's armies break prince of covenant as well. (Antiochus' invasion of Israel)

Daniel 11.23 - after an alliance is made with Antiochus IV, he shall act deceitfully and become strong with a small party. (Chooses Jason and Tobiad family after death of Onias III as high priest)

Daniel 11.25 - Wages war against King of South (Egyptian campaign)

Daniel 11.26 - but there are plots against him by his own court (Courtiers Eylaeus and Lenaeus incited political unrest against Antiochus IV)

Daniel 11.27 - the 2 kings shall sit at the table and exchange lies; he returns to his land but sets to break the covenant (Antiochus IV & Ptolemy VI attempt to make peace)

Daniel 11.29 - Returns to South, but defeated by ships of Kittim (Returns to attack Egypt, but Rome came to Egypt's aid)

Daniel 11.30-39 - Enraged, he shall turn against those who forsake the holy covenant. Forces profane temple; he abolishes burnt offering; set up abomination of desolation. King speaks horrendous things against God, and even pays no respect to own gods. (Troops desecrate the Jerusalem Temple, alter calendar, abolish Jewish cult, sets up worship of Zeus in Temple)


Hope that helps.

Robyn Banks

Utterly convincing post, that Daniel was centred on 165 B. C.!!! :wink:

[Daniel927]

Excellent historical post on Dan. 11. Before I read it, my intention was to give somewhat of a shorter answer for the question posed.

"Go ahead and just tear out that section of Daniel"!!!!!!!!!

Yet, I would like to offer something of relative importance instead.

This definitely is also referred to in Daniel 9:27 (would you LOOK at that, what a coincidence?).


Did the "first" murderer kill every righteous man on the planet? The answer is yes, Matt. 23:35.
Was it necessary for God to destroy all mankind, save those "eight" souls? Yes.
Israel taken into bondage 400 years? Yes
Do we see Israel taken into captivity and Jerusalem laid waste? Yes.
Silence of the prophets 400 years? Uh-huh.
Antiochus IV Epiphanes would offer a pig, desecrating the temple? Yep.

The list can go on and on.

They, of themselves, were not "THE" abomination, although it could be argued that they were "an" abomination.

Paul persecuted the church, in his own words, "...and wasted it". The church fathers were ruthlessly murdered. The early church persecuted by Rome, in an attempt to crush it out of existence. As well as the church, for all ages, being persecuted by the world. All these being "an" abomination, and yet not "THE" prescribed abomination.

Yet there would be an event in history, one thoroughly documented, that would stand above all that had preceeded it. One that would have eternal, everlasting implications!

Christ would tell them, in Matt. 23:32, "Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers". All that their unfaithful, unbelieving, ungodly forefathers had committed would be brought to a completion, a fullness, by THEIR actions.

Christ in verse 38 also said, "Your house is left unto you DESOLATE"!

Even though Christ spoke of the temple being destroyed, that would take place ONLY as an "effect", it would not be the "CAUSE"! The cause for ALL things that followed, would be this glorious work of Christ. He is the "CAUSE", everything else is merely "effect".

Daniel said that there would be an "abomination" that makes desolate. He even says that it takes place, "...on the wing of the temple", (NIV). How exact does the portrayal of Christ have to be?

Can you comtemplate one single event, standing far and above all the rest recorded in history, that could be understood as "THE" abomination that made desolate?

How is it that we might begin to comprehend that God, the creator of all that is both seen and unseen, in earth, above the earth and under the earth, would love us so much that he would manifest himself in flesh and come and walk among us? That in this great love of his, he would set aside, veil his glorious nature and by walking with us, would attempt to reveal to us the fullness, the greatness of his majesty, the love of the Father?

I suppose I could go on, but permit me to "bring home" the point.

WHAT DID WE DO WITH THIS GOD-MAN?

US, this very creation, from the works of his own hands, took him, abused him, and crucified him.

We held him with our own hands, the only begotten of God. Yet, we rejected him, scorned him, made him a public spectacle and not being satisfied with that, we pressed upon him, til he bowed his head and died.

WE MADE THE SON OF GOD A "CURSE". OH, YES WE DID. FOR IT IS WRITTEN, "...CURSED IS EVERYONE THAT HANGETH ON A TREE" (Gal. 3:13).

Because he came and died for the sins that WE have committed, that every man has committed. "FOR HE HATH MADE HIM TO BE SIN FOR US, WHO KNEW NO SIN; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him".

Yes, it was according to the divine plan of salvation, one that God himself had formulated, but there was still the part that we were required to fill. Knowing this, as he hung there, he prayed for us, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

Perhaps this has not been contemplated previously, but if you're willing to take it into serious consideration, you may find that many things begin to become clear, as they are directly relayed to this event.

Yes, it is a tragedy about the Dome of the Rock, yet it, combined with every other tragedy in recorded history, PALE in comparison to this single, solitary event.

Even though the crucifixion of Christ is the most glorious event in the believers life, it is also the "judgement" pronounced (Jn. 3:16-21) upon all the UN-believing world (this would include apostate Israel). Matt. 21:33-45!!!!!

Bless all you!!!!!!!!!