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STR Ambassador
October 27th 2003, 04:13 PM
People Often Believe What They Want
by Greg Koukl

People believe what they want to believe, much of the time. I don't mean to say that they believe things without any reason, but they believe, oftentimes, without good reason.

Most people will give some reason why they believe something. But an indicator of the fairness of their point of view is how they respond to even-handed, fair criticism of their view and to evidence for an opposing view. Lots of people have reasons for what they believe, but when those reasons are refuted--when they're taken away or weakened by other evidence--do they still stand on their point of view, or are they willing to adjust their view based on the evidence that comes in?

Sometimes the evidence people are initially faced with seems compelling. We were talking this morning about the Mars rock. As far as I've been able to tell, I think the Mars rock is much ado about nothing. NASA wants to send a probe to Mars and they don't have the money for it. All of a sudden this rock makes it into the news. They see a couple of forms one-hundredth the width of a human hair through an electron microscope. Scattered around it are some chemicals that are sometimes, but not necessarily, associated with life. As one person pointed out, if this had been found on earth, no one would have ever drawn the conclusion that this was life.

Indeed, these shapes you read about in the paper weren't even mentioned in the peer review piece sent to Scientific America—the one reviewed by the scientists, so it must be more careful and rigorous. The reason they weren't mentioned is that these shapes were not good indicators of life. It sounds good in the press to the rank and file, but apparently no scientist in the field would take those shapes seriously. They were interested in the chemistry.

The point is, the evidence for ancient life on Mars wasn't conclusive in any way, shape or form. Yet those who want to believe in life on other planets or in evolution—and even if there was life on Mars, it wouldn't prove evolution, as I pointed out—they seize on this scanty evidence.

So, people will say, "Life on Mars! It's already been proven." Well, it hasn't.

Another example of this is, "Everybody knows that homosexuality is genetic; it's constitutional. Science has proven it." But science hasn't proven it. There is some indication that there may be some physiological factors contributing to a person's homosexuality, but no one has demonstrated any necessary genetic link.

Here's an example to give you an idea how careful you've got to be in drawing some conclusions. I was challenged on this issue by someone who pointed out there were enlarged hypothalamus in one study of homosexual cadavers. I asked, "How do we know that the enlarged hypothalamus in the homosexuals was the cause of homosexuality and not the effect? These men were dead. Their lives were over. What evidence justifies our presumption that an enlarged hypothalamus was their in the beginning, causing the homosexual behavior? Why not rather presume that it was the homosexual behavior that caused the enlarging of the hypothalamus later in life?

To be honest, I don't know one way or another, because I'm not an expert in this field. I'm just raising the issue to show you how you can't simply jump to that conclusion. Those who are careful about the scientific evidence haven't come to that conclusion. The ones who have are those who are not in the field, who are not careful, yet who have something at stake in making the case for constitutional homosexuality.

I actually don't care if it turns out that homosexuality is genetic. It's irrelevant to the moral question. Just because homosexuality may come naturally for some doesn't mean it's moral to practice it. Indeed, one could say that the difference between just doing what comes naturally and principled self-restraint is called civilization.

Do we want to argue that whatever we "naturally" feel like doing at any moment ought to be morally allowed? That's the same as living like animals, because animals always obey their base physical impulses. Human beings are different. They have moral rules that constrain their behavior.

The point I'm making here is that, even if homosexuality did turn out to be hard-wired into the physiology, it still wouldn't begin to answer the question of whether it is moral to act on the desire. That's a different issue entirely.

My point is that people seize upon scanty evidence to justify something because they want it justified, not because they've examined the issue carefully. They'll say animals practice homosexuality. How do they know that? Because they see male dogs mounting other male dogs, or licking them in their genital areas. See? It's obvious: homosexuality is natural.

But it's not so obvious. Think about this for a second. If you ever had a male dog, you know that they don't just mount other male dogs. They also mount sofas, and trees, and will mount the leg of your guests if you're not careful. This is not homosexual behavior. This is auto-eroticism.

The only way one could show this behavior was homosexual is if one could demonstrate that the dog was desiring the male gender of the animal he was mounting. One can't conclude from the observed activity alone that any animal has homosexual desires. This is just another example of a hasty judgment.

Christians are also capable of hasty, unbalanced judgments. They often hold points of view that are not well justified or even are consonant with the full counsel of the Scriptures.

I get frustrated when people proof-text their pet point of view, but are unwilling to look at any other texts against their view. They just want to keep citing their pet verses, even when those verses are equivocal.

I've faced this in my teaching on Decision Making and the Will of God. For those who disagree with my particular approach, please take the time to look at my biblical assessment and critique the verses. Frankly, after I've given the talk I've had people come up to me and say, "That's pretty thorough. I think you're wrong, but I can't find any arguments against your biblical analysis."

Why would someone say such a thing? That's pretty good evidence I'm right, not wrong. I could be mistaken, but the way to correct me is to show how my treatment and assessment is not legitimate, given the texts I cite.

Here's what bothers me. We've talked a lot here about the issue of salvation, and whether God is the ultimate author of it or man is. This is the Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate. I've noticed a tendency of people who argue against my view—that God chooses man for salvation—and they simply keep going to their texts that talk about man choosing God.

Those verses do have to be taken into consideration in any overall assessment. Sometimes, though, it's like they're saying, "Where are Koukl and the rest of these Reformed guys getting this stuff? They're just making it all up, because here are my proof texts that are so clear."

Friends, what I'm trying to do is to make sense out of the whole Bible. It's my job to construct a way of viewing any particular doctrine which does the best justice to the most verses and references. I can't just camp on my pet verses and say, "There it is, plain as day. What's wrong with you?"

What bothers me is that many won't take the time to construct a theological point of view that attempts to integrate all the verses pertaining to an issue. I want to ask them, "If your point of view is correct, then make sense out of this verse, and this verse and this verse… and I'll give you hundreds for my side. I could be wrong about my view, but you're going to have to work a lot harder at making sense of verses for my view in light of your theology."

I work hard at integration. This includes trying very hard to make sense of verses that seem to be contrary to my point of view. Anyone who does not do that simply is not interested in the truth. Anyone who sits on his verse and doesn't try to carefully deal with contrary verses—doesn't try to offer an explanation of them that fits in with his overall view of the issue—is not taking truth seriously.

I'm not saying that if you disagree with me then you're not taking truth seriously. I'm also not saying that you've got to be able to explain every single verse, because I can't do that either. Every point of view has its problems.

What I'm saying is this. If you're even-handed and fair-minded, you have to say: "I've looked at all the verses, and here's my understanding of it. This verse seems to state my view rather clearly, and here's a verse that seems to contradict my view, but there may be something else going on in this second passage. Here's what I think it is, and here's why I think it's stated in this particular way, so it gives the appearance of a contradiction, but it isn't really a contradiction. Here is a way to solve the apparent contradiction."

That's called scholarship, ladies and gentlemen. That's called even-handed Bible study. That's called clear thinking. And if all you're willing to do is sit on your own verses, you have no guarantee you aren't going to be completely wrong in your view. You can only have confidence if you're careful to integrate into your particular point of view, as much as you possibly can, even those verses which seem contrary to it.

This is very important. It doesn't matter whether you happen to agree with me or not. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about care in study, whether it's Bible, or science, or Mars rocks, or homosexuality, or whatever. It's a willingness to engage all the facts, and try to integrate them as even-handedly as possible into a theory or view or hypothesis so you have the least amount of conflict with all of the facts concerned.

Those people who use the scientific method in the best sense are people who try to fit all of the facts in and not just grab onto those facts they like. They don't play, "Hear no evil, speak no evil, see no evil" with facts they don't like.

This is bad scholarship with scientists, but it's reprehensible for a Christian when you consider what's at stake, the source of the information (the Bible), and that it's the most important truth we could ever be thinking about. We'd better be giving that kind of issue our best shot.

Stand to Reason - training Christians in the areas of knowledge, wisdom, and character - www.str.org - http://www.str.org/free/commentaries/apologetics/records/peoplebe.htm

dizzle
October 27th 2003, 07:23 PM
Wow, I have several comments to make, but I will make just one for now:

The only way one could show this behavior was homosexual is if one could demonstrate that the dog was desiring the male gender of the animal he was mounting. One can't conclude from the observed activity alone that any animal has homosexual desires. This is just another example of a hasty judgment.



Ding, ding, ding!!! Man, how could I miss something so obvious? Thank you for clarifying my thinking. It is easy to buy into unproven assertionds.

veritas
October 27th 2003, 07:43 PM
Since this post seems to have a quite specific focus on homosexuality, I fail to see why homosexuality is immoral besides the Judeo-Christian God's prohibition of such behavior. What is the logical reasoning behind the immorality of this behavior? If you feel that you require no logic to deem it immoral, then be careful when you begin to speak about the Constitution and legislation, both of which require the utmost of consideration of reason and logic. And as for the "cause" of homosexuality, I believe the leading candidate is androgen exposure in the womb. However, like you, I question the relevance of the cause of homosexuality to its morality.

I relation to the topic of this post I would say I don't believe what I want, I don't believe in anything in fact. I know what is objectively true based on reason and proof and acceptance of everything else is contigent upon further investigation. The only thing I supposed one could say I "believe" in is the contigency of acceptance and skepticism to only be allayed upon deposition of sufficient evidence. If that is true then I am proud to say I believe in that as it is the only thing that objectively makes sense in a world of such subjectivity.

Queen
October 28th 2003, 11:01 AM
Who writes these things?

I am surprised by those articles every time. I wonder what is going through the mind of the person who writes it...

First of all, homosexuality is not an accident in nature. These animals know that they have a relationship with the same gender. Animals are not stupid when it comes to reproduction....and birds mate for life. They have a life long commitment with their partner. And they realize there partner is the same. Animals have certain calls, certain smells they spread to find a partner and certain mating rituals that make sure they bump inot the right one. Most animals have so-called sexual dimorphism. Males are much bigger or much more colorful or differ in another way from females. And they have different build, like male and female in humans. Hard to not notice they are of the same sex... :doh: So that part is nonsense.

If it is genetic it is something natural, even if animals don't know the difference between male and female. Genetically differences between people of different sexual orientation is a natural occurance. Nature caused it. Because there are homosexual and bisexual people since the dawn of time, so to speak. It is not a trend from the last few years. Even if it is a "disorder" it is natural.........build in and past on from generation to generation. We didn't start out to be this cultural evolved in the world......It took us a long while to evolve even on a cultral level...although according to nature humans ran through evolution/creation or whatever you believe...So, mistake two...

If the laws of the OT fits in this time and age....so do the rape laws of God......and I have been told to see it differently because it is a different time and age and I should not place it in our time......Why is this and any other law different? Using laws of God in random ways to prove that He is right and bend the rules, because you would look cruel if these laws were as good for this time.....

I wonder how the mind of this writer works....

Well, being indignant again I guess :tongue: ....just my two cents about the lives of me and friends of mine. We do not sin!! We live good lives and our sexual orientation doesn't make us sinners.....it makes us just who we are!

Lots of love and sunshine,
Queen

DivineOb
November 10th 2003, 04:49 AM
All we see is that another christian is hasty to demonstrate his ignorance without investigating what "scientists really say"

All the article was missing was a Hovind quote

Aristotle
November 10th 2003, 05:11 AM
Wow, almost all the information in that article was either incorrect or completely off the wall. Scientists think homosexuality is natural because they observe it in a wide variety of species......not just a dog and duck.......perhaps the writer should actually do some research before attempting to make a point again.

Gilgaron
November 10th 2003, 09:40 AM
The only way one could show this behavior was homosexual is if one could demonstrate that the dog was desiring the male gender of the animal he was mounting. One can't conclude from the observed activity alone that any animal has homosexual desires. This is just another example of a hasty judgment.


I didn't have time to read the whole thing right now, but glanced through the replies and am responding to the quoted passage Dee Dee responded to.

Whether or not it is hasty judgement depends on the theory of the mind one follows. One following one of the public mind theories, such as behaviorism, physicialism, or functionalism, will have no trouble deducing from behavior what internal states are. A psychologist would do such to you during therapy.

Your problems with the idea regarding deducing internal mental states from behavior indicate a belief in a private mind, which has largely been abandoned by contemporary philosophers and neurologists.

It is a battle of presuppositions, not hasty judgement.

dizzle
November 10th 2003, 08:06 PM
Today @ 08:40 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=277189#post277189)
Gilgaron:



I didn't have time to read the whole thing right now, but glanced through the replies and am responding to the quoted passage Dee Dee responded to.

Whether or not it is hasty judgement depends on the theory of the mind one follows. One following one of the public mind theories, such as behaviorism, physicialism, or functionalism, will have no trouble deducing from behavior what internal states are. A psychologist would do such to you during therapy.


We are speaking of animals not humans. It is of course a hasty judgment, or bad theory if you prefer to call it that for it is completely unsupported.

Your problems with the idea regarding deducing internal mental states from behavior indicate a belief in a private mind, which has largely been abandoned by contemporary philosophers and neurologists.

For dogs??? Remember we are talking about dogs here. I do not know many contempory philosophers and neurologists that wax long and philosophic about the homosexual fantasies of dogs.

It is a battle of presuppositions, not hasty judgement.

Semantics.

Gilgaron
November 11th 2003, 07:16 PM
Dee Dee Warren:

We are speaking of animals not humans. It is of course a hasty judgment, or bad theory if you prefer to call it that for it is completely unsupported.

He's criticising behaviorism, which is the principle means for performing psychology on non-humans.

For dogs??? Remember we are talking about dogs here. I do not know many contempory philosophers and neurologists that wax long and philosophic about the homosexual fantasies of dogs.

He's saying that we can't inference the desires of the dogs from their behaviors. This is directly parallel to human psychology.

Semantics.

Please show me how he and I are in agreement and I will accept this charge.

If behaviors cannot tell us about internal processes, the mind is private. An MRI can show you that this is not the case. He's right to say that deductions of internal states are tentative, but incorrect in stating that basing anything upon this tentativeness is hasty judgement. The entirety of thought is based upon tentativeness, from science to Cartesian dualism.

scottatiwu
November 12th 2003, 04:01 PM
In defense of Koukl's stance, I think a lot of people involved in this discussion fall subject to the naturalistic fallacy. It is, thus it should be... what utter non-sense. It's been my experience that this will arise anywhere at anytime within the context of a religious/scientific discussion. We see the evidence and make unfounded assumptions based upon it. We read our view-point back into it. Of course I'm beating the wind because I'm not quite sure any human can avoid doing this; but honestly, what can we really prove with our evidence?

gary cook
November 1st 2004, 12:51 AM
People only believe one person on EARTH ?They believe themselfs .They tell them selfs ,what they will believe .then base there lifes on this ?Different things for different people .But what ever you say .You will believe .That is WHY .God told us to confess with our mouths .Then we would believe .Thomas ,sais he would not believe .So JESUS CHRIST had to show him .Our words are powerfull .The become TRUTh to us .It is bound in heaven ,the words we speak .Our words can be very damming and dangerous .Even for others .We need to be careful of our words .They give us life and DEATH .