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This is where we come to delve into the biblical text. Theology is not our foremost thought, but we realize it is something that will be dealt with in nearly every conversation. Feel free to use the original languages to make your point (meaning Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic). This is an exegetical discussion area, so please limit topics to purely biblical ones.

This is not the section for debates between theists and atheists. While a theistic viewpoint is not required for discussion in this area, discussion does presuppose a respect for the integrity of the Biblical text (or the willingness to accept such a presupposition for discussion purposes) and a respect for the integrity of the faith of others and a lack of an agenda to undermine the faith of others.

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John

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  • John

    This is a non-debate reading and grammatical analysis thread.

    Please do not post any cabala in this thread.

    Abbreviations:
    BDAG: A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature Third Edition Revised and Edited by Frederick William Danker (University of Chicago Press, 2000).

    BG: Biblical Greek Illustrated by Examples, English Edition Adapted from the Fourth Latin Edition by Joseph Smith, S.J.. (Rome: Scripta Pontificii Instituti Biblici, 1963), by Maximilian Zerwick, S.J.

    LXX: Septuaginta : Editio altera, Revised Edition (Stuttgart: Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft, 2006), edited by Alfred Rahlfs

    NA27: Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament (27th edition), edited by Barbara and Kurt Aland, Johannes Karavidopoulos, Carlo M. Martini, and Bruce M. Metzger.

    NETS: A New English Translation of the Septuagint and the Other Greek Translations Traditionally Included Under That Title, Albert Pietersma and Benjamin G. Wright, Editors (Oxford, 2007).

    Zerwick: An Analysis of the Greek New Testament, by Max Zerwick and Mary Grosvenor (Rome: Biblical Institute Press, 1981).

  • #2
    Subscribing noncabalically.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      Subscribing noncabalically.

      Comment


      • #4
        John 1:1a

        Text: (NA27):
        Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος

        Transliteration (Accordance):
        Εν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος

        Translation (NRSV):
        In the beginning was the Word

        Grammatical Analysis (Zerwick/BDAG, meanings in this context):
        ἀρχή : beginning; ἐν ἀρχῇ = Gen 1:1, a deliberate allusion, hence "when all things (the universe, verse 3) began".
        ἦν : imperfect of εἰμί, imperfect of duration, was, was in existence ; the fourfold ἦν opposite ἐγένετο verse 3
        λόγος : word, here personal.

        Comment


        • #5
          John 1:1b

          Text: (NA27):
          καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

          Transliteration (Accordance):
          kai ho logos ēn pros ton theon, kai theos ēn ho logos.

          Translation (NRSV):
          and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

          Grammatical Analysis (Zerwick/BDAG, meanings in this context):
          πρός : with accusative in Hellenistic Greek = παρά with dative beside, with a person but in John apparently connoting towards (a person).
          θεός : "the word was divine" predicate with article, insisting on the nature of the Word.*
          *BG: §§172-173 The omission of the article shows that the speaker regards the person or thing not so much as this or that person or thing, but rather as such a person or thing, i.e. regards not this individual but rather it nature or quality. Hence it is sometimes stated as a "rule" that "the article is not used with the predicate". In fact, predicates commonly lack this article, but this is not in virtue of any "rule" about predicates in particular, but in virtue of the universal rule: for in the nature of things, the predicate commonly refers not to an individual as such, but to the class to which the subject belongs, to the nature or quality predicated of the subject: e.g. John 1:1 θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος, which attributes to the Word the divine nature (ὁ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος, at least in NT usage, would signify personal identity of the Word with the Father, since the latter is ὁ θεός).
          Last edited by John Reece; 11-10-2016, 10:27 AM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by John Reece View Post
            Text: (NA27):
            καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

            Transliteration (Accordance):
            kai ho logos ēn pros ton theon, kai theos ēn ho logos.

            Translation (NRSV):
            and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

            Grammatical Analysis (Zerwick/BDAG, meanings in this context):
            πρός : with accusative in Hellenistic Greek = παρά with dative beside, with a person but in John apparently connoting towards (a person).
            θεός : "the word was divine" predicate with article, insisting on the nature of the Word.*
            *BG: §§172-173 The omission of the article shows that the speaker regards the person or thing not so much as this or that person or thing, but rather as such a person or thing, i.e. regards not this individual but rather it nature or quality. Hence it is sometimes stated as a "rule" that "the article is not used with the predicate". In fact, predicates commonly lack this article, but this is not in virtue of any "rule" about predicates in particular, but in virtue of the universal rule: for in the nature of things, the predicate commonly refers not to an individual as such, but to the class to which the subject belongs, to the nature or quality predicated of the subject: e.g. John 1:1 θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος, which attributes to the Word the divine nature (ὁ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος, at least in NT usage, would signify personal identity of the Word with the Father, since the latter is ὁ θεός).
            An alternate opinion, from The Gospel According to JOHN, by D. A. Carson (WILLIAM B. EERDMANS PUBLISHING COMPANY]: GRAND RAPIDS), © 1991 D. A. Carson, page circa 117 via Accordance.

            More, the Word was God. That is the translation demanded by the Greek structure, theos ēn ho logos. A long string of writers has argued that because theos, ‘God’, here has no article, John is not referring to God as a specific being, but to mere qualities of ‘God-ness’. The Word, they say, was not God, but divine. This will not do. There is a perfectly serviceable word in Greek for ‘divine’ (namely theios). More importantly, there are many places in the New Testament where the predicate noun has no article, and yet is specific. Even in this chapter, ‘you are the King of Israel’ (1:49) has no article before ‘King’ in the original (cf. also Jn. 8:39; 17:17; Rom. 14:17; Gal. 4:25; Rev. 1:20). It has been shown that it is common for a definite predicate noun in this construction, placed before the verb, to be anarthrous (that is, to have no article; cf. Additional Note). Indeed, the effect of ordering the words this way is to emphasize ‘God’, as if John were saying, ‘and the word was God!’ In fact, if John had included the article, he would have been saying something quite untrue. He would have been so identifying the Word with God that no divine being could exist apart from the Word. In that case, it would be nonsense to say (in the words of the second clause of this verse) that the Word was with God. The ‘Word does not by Himself make up the entire Godhead; nevertheless the divinity that belongs to the rest of the Godhead belongs also to Him’ (Tasker, p. 45. ‘The Word was with God, God’s eternal Fellow; the Word was God, God’s own Self.’)

            Additional note:

            1. Dunn, Making, p. 241, cites Philo, Som. i. 227–230, who in discussing the relationship of the logos to God also makes his argument depend on the presence or absence of an article: ‘He that is truly God is One, but those that are improperly so called are more than one. Accordingly the holy word in the present instance has indicated him who is truly God by means of the articles saying “I am the God”, while it omits the article when mentioning him who is improperly so called, saying “Who appeared to thee in the place” not “of the God”, but simply “of God” [Gn. 31:13 LXX—en tropō theou]. Here it gives the title of “God” to his chief Word…’. Dunn does not argue that John borrows from Philo, but that Philo ‘demonstrates that a distinction between ho theos and theos such as we find in John 1.1b–c, would be deliberate by the author and significant for the Greek reader.’ But the parallel between Philo’s self-conscious observations on the article and John’s syntax are not close. Philo’s logos, impersonal as it is, never really threatens the personal/transcendent God of Jewish monotheism anyway, and the syntactical distinction he draws is an argument of expedience, frequently contradicted by the exigencies of Greek grammar itself. By contrast, John’s omission of the article is not part of an elaborate, syntactically ill-conceived argument to prove a point, but common Greek usage, and not even demonstrably self-conscious. Syntactically, the question does not turn simply on the presence or absence of the article, but on the presence or absence of the article with definite nominative predicate nouns preceding a finite copula—which makes the alleged parallel in Philo irrelevant.

            Comment


            • #7
              John 1:2

              Text: (NA27):
              οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν θεόν.

              Transliteration (Accordance):
              houtos ēn en archȩ̄ pros ton theon.

              Translation (NRSV):
              He was in the beginning with God.

              Grammatical Analysis (Zerwick/BDAG, meanings in this context):
              ἀρχή : beginning.

              Comment


              • #8
                John 1:3a

                Text: (NA27):
                πάντα δι᾿ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο

                Transliteration (Accordance):
                panta di’ autou egeneto

                Translation (NRSV):
                All things came into being through him

                Grammatical Analysis (Zerwick/BDAG, meanings in this context):
                δι᾿ = διά, with genitive through, of an instrumental cause (also of a principal cause, Romans 11:36)
                ἐγένετο : aorist of γίνομαι become, come into being.

                Comment


                • #9
                  John 1:3b

                  Text: (NA27):
                  καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν.

                  Transliteration (Accordance):
                  kai chōris autou egeneto oude hen.

                  Translation (NRSV):
                  and without him not one thing came into being.

                  Grammatical Analysis (Zerwick/BDAG, meanings in this context):
                  χωρίς᾿ : separately, apart, by itself.
                  ἐγένετο : aorist of γίνομαι come into being.
                  οὐδὲ ἕν = οὐδέν not a single thing.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    John 1:3c-4

                    Text: (NA27):
                    ὃ γέγονεν 4 ἐν αὐτῷ ζωὴ ἦν, καὶ ἡ ζωὴ ἦν τὸ φῶς τῶν ἀνθρώπων·

                    Transliteration (Accordance):
                    ho gegonen 4 en autō̧ zōē ēn, kai hē zōē ēn to phōs tōn anthrōpōn

                    Translation (NRSV):
                    What has come into being 4 in him was life, and the life was the light of all people.

                    Grammatical Analysis (Zerwick/BDAG, meanings in this context):
                    γέγονεν᾿ : perfect of γίνομαι that which came into existence ; some editions punctuate with full point after existence ; some editions punctuate with full point after γέγονεν was not anything made that was made (cf Weymouth, RSV). Taken with what follows ὃ γέγονεν ... ἦν, "that which has come to be was life in him" (cf Weymouth and RSV margin, NEB, JB).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      John 1:5

                      Text: (NA27):
                      καὶ τὸ φῶς ἐν τῇ σκοτίᾳ φαίνει, καὶ ἡ σκοτία αὐτὸ οὐ κατέλαβεν

                      Transliteration (Accordance):
                      kai to phōs en tȩ̄ skotia̧ phainei, kai hē skotia auto ou katelaben

                      Translation (NRSV):
                      The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it.

                      Grammatical Analysis (Zerwick/BDAG, meanings in this context):
                      σκοτία : darkness, with ethical content.
                      φαίνω : intransitive shine, present because stating the essential nature of light.
                      κατέλαβεν : aorist of καταλαμβάνω seize, grasp, comprehend ; also overtake, suppress.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        John 1:6

                        Text: (NA27):
                        Ἐγένετο ἄνθρωπος, ἀπεσταλμένος παρὰ θεοῦ, ὄνομα αὐτῷ Ἰωάννης

                        Transliteration (Accordance):
                        Egeneto anthrōpos, apestalmenos para theou, onoma autō̧ Iōannēs

                        Translation (NRSV):
                        There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

                        Grammatical Analysis (Zerwick/BDAG, meanings in this context):
                        ἐγένετο : aorist of γίνομαι here came appeared.
                        ἀπεσταλμένος : perfect passive participle of ἀποστέλλω send.
                        παρά : with genitive of person from, or in Hellenistic Greek may stand for ἀπό.
                        ὄνομα αὐτῷ Ἰωάννης : a parenthesis, " (the) name to him (was) John". his name was John

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          John 1:7

                          Text: (NA27):
                          οὗτος ἦλθεν εἰς μαρτυρίαν ἵνα μαρτυρήσῃ περὶ τοῦ φωτός, ἵνα πάντες πιστεύσωσιν δι᾿ αὐτοῦ.

                          Transliteration (Accordance):
                          houtos ēlthen eis martyrian hina martyrēsȩ̄ peri tou phōtos, hina pantes pisteusōsin di’ autou.

                          Translation (NRSV):
                          He came as a witness to testify to the light, so that all might believe through him.

                          Grammatical Analysis (Zerwick/BDAG, meanings in this context):
                          ἦλθεν : aorist of ἔρχομαι come.
                          εἰς : with a view to, for (the purpose of).
                          μαρτυρία : testimony ; εἰς μαρτυρίαν to witness.
                          μαρτυρήσῃ : aorist subjunctive of μαρτυρέω to confirm or attest something on the basis of personal knowledge or belief, bear witness, be a witness.
                          πιστεύσωσιν : aorist subjunctive of πιστεύω be a believer, aorist inceptive* come to believe.
                          δι᾿ = διά through.
                          *BG: 250. The inceptive aorist. The aorist calls for especial attention in verbs which of their nature indicate a state; with these verbs the aorist commonly (but not necessarily) indicates the inception of the state and this may demand a difference in the translation. ...
                          Last edited by John Reece; 11-17-2016, 07:33 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            John 1:8

                            Text: (NA27):
                            οὐκ ἦν ἐκεῖνος τὸ φῶς, ἀλλ᾿ ἵνα μαρτυρήσῃ περὶ τοῦ φωτός.

                            Transliteration (Accordance):
                            ouk ēn ekeinos to phōs, all’ hina martyrēsȩ̄ peri tou phōtos.

                            Translation (NRSV):
                            He himself was not the light, but he came to testify to the light.

                            Grammatical Analysis (Zerwick/BDAG, meanings in this context):
                            ἀλλ᾿ ἵνα μαρτυρήσῃ : sc. ἦλθεν (aorist of ἔρχομαι come).

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              John 1:9

                              Text: (NA27):
                              Ην τὸ φῶς τὸ ἀληθινόν, ὃ φωτίζει πάντα ἄνθρωπον, ἐρχόμενον εἰς τὸν κόσμον.

                              Transliteration (Accordance):
                              Ēn to phōs to alēthinon, ho phōtizei panta anthrōpon, erchomenon eis ton kosmon.

                              Translation (NRSV):
                              The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world..

                              Grammatical Analysis (Zerwick/BDAG, meanings in this context):
                              ἦν : verse 1 ; either (with τὸ φῶς as subject) was in existence, or with "he" (the Word) as subject and τὸ φῶς as predicate) he was the true light, or (τὸ φῶς as subject and ἦν ... ἐρχόμενον as predicate) the true light ... was coming (periphrastic construction).
                              ἀληθινός : true, genuine, veritable.
                              φωτίζω : shed light on.
                              ἐρχόμενον : particle of ἔρχομαι either accusative masculine referring to ἄνθρωπον (perhaps reflecting rabbinic expression "all who come into the world" for "man, mankind:) ; or nominative neuter referring to φῶς, he was the true light which, coming into the world, sheds light onto every man.
                              κόσμος : the world, mankind.

                              Comment

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