The root of all sin.

[mickiel]

There are many different views of sin. Many believe that sinners can atone for their own sins by doing "good things", considered to be spiritual works. These are counted as righteousness if they are pleasing to God. They expend all sorts of self effort to erase their own sin themselves, using their own goodness to bargain with God, sort of leaving him no choice other than to forgive them. It is a weird sense of trying to pacify God, but this view of sin is distorted. If self effort is the method engaged to conquer sin, that is not sufficent. Human will cannot remove sin at its root, and it will re-immerge every time. The real root of mankinds sin is this: Now that Jesus has come to forgive all sin and reconcile us to his Father, the only sin that remains is the sin of not trusting in him who takes away the sin of the world, and not believing that he has done that. The root of all sin is unbelief in Gods atonement for human sin through Jesus Christ.


Jesus is the entrance to life and the exit to sin. When people try to position themselves into either one of these areas, they are innsuficent to deal with it. Men try to erase their own sin by their own living, they think they can open and close the very doors of the church, even determine their own salvation. Even repentance from sin is centered on self withdrawal. When repentance is centered on the power of self withdrawal, that struggle is only a fight with self. It is a bypassing of Christ power and annointing to erase sin. Religon has given the role of fighting sin to the individual, the role of salvation is given to the individual. This kind of religon is a self improvement program. The world is being conditioned to fighting sin on its own terms, in its own selfish manner. This is why religon has failed in its treatment on sin. It has created a generation of people who are seriously handicapped and frustrated with themselves spiritually.

The world thinks of righteousness in terms of human goodness and virture, conversely any who do not display these charactheristics are doomed by this same earthly understanding. Righteousness should have never been defined by human performance, or lack of it. This has offered no victory from sin, in fact it has lent credance to its hold on mankind. Deepening its root system. Jesus is our only known hope in helping mankinds false ability to overcome sin. When the human mind is the will of repentance, that is innsuficent. The free will doctrine has created thousands of minds that torement themselves as being responsible for cleansing themselves of sin.

God gave Jesus the mission to remove sin, nothingelse is needed, nor will anythingelse work. satan seeks to place this responsibility on mankind, effectively rendering salvation as not and inherited free gift, but on these distorted terms of self, it is reduced to a reward only for those who are worthy, a survival of the fittest of mankind. This is a defeatist view of sin. It is satans view, he knows this has crippled mankind. None of us can properly deal with sin, we all have fallen to its influence. It is in us all. The doctrine of hell is a defeatist mentality for losers. It is satans will that mankind looses salvation, that is HIS doctrine, NOT Gods.

The world has not accepted that God has been in power all along. The world does not believe that Jesus has defeated sin, has COMPLETTED his assignment. satan has given each individual that God given assignment to Christ. Many are crippled by this overwhelming responsibility. Jesus has ALREADY removed the root of all sin, this is not based on human performance, past , present or future. Jesus said it is finished, satan says we ourselves, our living, our choices will finish it. This distorted view of sin is a deep root in mankinds thinking. The sins of the world were placed on Christ most capable shoulders, don't let satan cause you to believe it was placed on your shoulders.

[EdJones]

When you say "The world has not accepted that God has been in power all along." Do you mean the Christians or the world?

[mickiel]

Today @ 10:48 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=263516#post263516)
EdJones:

When you say "The world has not accepted that God has been in power all along." Do you mean the Christians or the world?



The world has rejected God. Christians teach that God and satan are involved in a titanic battle for mens souls, quess who has gotten beaten very bad if that was true? Many christians believe that God is passive, sitting back up there somewhere just leaving it up to humans to decide their own fate. That is the result of the free will belief. It has reduced Gods universal power in his predeterminded will, to basically being meaningless if the human is stupid enough to reject him. They think God foresaw all this stupidity and is just going to be content with it because of the supposed "fairness theology in the free will doctrine". God is not going to allow the total destruction and suffering of his creation, because he is responsible for what he creates. He just decided to create it in flesh and sin first, and then recreate it in Spirit later. The misunderstanding of this has created a race of humans who think God is using good to determine who is going to be saved. They cannot see that he is responsible for evil. It is BECAUSE he is responsible for evil that none of us are doomed. God is the power behind good and evil, people do not believe that.

[EdJones]

I didn't read or find an answer to my question in that.

[mickiel]

Today @ 11:21 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=263667#post263667)
EdJones:

I didn't read or find an answer to my question in that.





Then i do not understand your question. God is in charge of all things, is my belief. Nothing can happen that he does not want to happen. Christians do not believe this. They believe in evolution. They think sin evolved out of nowhere, slipped past God, jumped into Lucifer and made him become the devil. Then this devil utterly ruined the plan of salvation for at least 90% of created humanity. Christians accept this senario because they don't believe God is in control of all events in life.

[bar Jonah]

Keep in mind, Ed, that Mickiel is proudly not a Christian, and tends to quote scripture only when it matches up with what he wants to believe.

[mickiel]

Today @ 11:33 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=263719#post263719)
RightIdea:

Keep in mind, Ed, that Mickiel is proudly not a Christian, and tends to quote scripture only when it matches up with what he wants to believe.




Neither have you cornered the market on the understanding of scripture, you just lives and think as if you have. The biblical meaning of "other sheep i have that are not of this fold", is beyound your comprehension. It means all of Gods people are not in some same church. In the end, the bible says they will be gathered together from the four corners of the earth, clearly meaning they are all over this planet. The christian mentality seeks to limit that to mainly America, mainly certain cultures overseas, and mainly those who agree with mainstream christianity. Avoiding that horrible thinking is one reason i will not be christian.

[EdJones]

mickiel?

[Queen]

Does this mean that because I am an atheist, I am part of the horror in this world? Or do I misunderstood this completely?

lots of love and sunshine,
Queen

[bar Jonah]

Queen:
Does this mean that because I am an atheist, I am part of the horror in this world? Or do I misunderstood this completely?

lots of love and sunshine,
Queen
Queen, the answer is yes and no, but I as I'm about to be late to work, I can't give a full answer right this minute. I will be gone almost all day. But please remind me to post something on this, as this is something very often mis-perceived about Christianity, and I'd very much like the chance to explain the yes/no answer.

:ri:

[mickiel]

Today @ 01:57 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=264978#post264978)
EdJones:

mickiel?





No i am not a Jew. I am a mixture of black american, a tribe of Indian called black feet, and white american. My grandmother on my fathers side was white, on my mothers side was Indian pure blood, and my mother is black.

[mickiel]

Today @ 02:00 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=264981#post264981)
Queen:

Does this mean that because I am an atheist, I am part of the horror in this world? Or do I misunderstood this completely?

lots of love and sunshine,
Queen




If you have added to the horror, then you are part of it, if you have added to what little peace and sanity we have, then you are not.

[EdJones]

Today @ 04:23 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=265189#post265189)
mickiel:







No i am not a Jew. I am a mixture of black american, a tribe of Indian called black feet, and white american. My grandmother on my fathers side was white, on my mothers side was Indian pure blood, and my mother is black.

Then you won't have to worry about being "gathered together from the four corners of the earth, " that's talking about the Jews not you.
mickiel, what are you going to do with Jesus Christ?

[mickiel]

Today @ 09:08 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=265794#post265794)
EdJones:



Then you won't have to worry about being "gathered together from the four corners of the earth, " that's talking about the Jews not you.
mickiel, what are you going to do with Jesus Christ?




When the bible refers to Jews or Isrealites, it often means Gods annointed people in ANY era they exist, in any geographic location. When it refers to Abrahams children, it means all Gods created people, NOT a specific race. God has called a group of people as a preliminary purpose he has developed. These people are called firstfruits, then he will call a number no man can tabulate, meaning everybody, no need to count. Your kind seeks to limit this number, your view of salvation is limited, so your view of the bible refering to Jews, Isreal and Abrahams children is limited also.


Now this question"what am i going to do with Christ", explain to me why your questions are so limited? You need to learn how to ask a question in clear terminology, so one does not have to quess what is your meaning. Be more clear as you communicate, place your thoughts clearly into the other persons mind.

[EdJones]

It was very edifying. :joy:

[bar Jonah]

A Bible lesson from someone who isn't a Christian and who derides Christianity as a whole? :lol:

[EdJones]

Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings...

[Queen]

Well, horror is part of me, but I try to be as peaceful and respectful as possible...

Thanks for the reply, Michkiel

lots of love and sunshine,
Queen

[mickiel]

Yesterday @ 06:31 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=266521#post266521)
Queen:

Well, horror is part of me, but I try to be as peaceful and respectful as possible...

Thanks for the reply, Michkiel

lots of love and sunshine,
Queen





I too have my share of the horror, but like yourself, i try to be peaceful, i just don't like christians. I dislike those who say they are Jews and are not. Those who claim to understand God, and do not. Theology is one of the greatest horrors of our time, men cannot see this. There is a great blanket of misunderstanding covering this earth that allows no spiritual understanding that is correct. I have discovered that God has done this. The reason he did is made plain in Romans 11:32, he is going to show mercy to all. Gods grace and the strength of salvation is being made perfect in weakness. The weakness is our lives lived in sin. The being made perfect is the result of Christ annointing not to loose any of us to this PREORDAINED WEAKNESS. People just cannot see this.

[bar Jonah]

Except that while you reject Christianity, you base your beliefs on whatever bits and pieces of scripture you select out of context to fit together like some Gobot or Transformer, to shape it into whatever fits your personal preference.

But absolute truth isn't decided. It is discerned.

(And fyi, many of us do not believe we are Jews or "spiritual Israel." That's only covenental theology, born out of the Catholic Church.)

Queen, my answer to your question is forthcoming. I apologize for the delay.

[mickiel]

Today @ 05:25 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=268085#post268085)
RightIdea:

Except that while you reject Christianity, you base your beliefs on whatever bits and pieces of scripture you select out of context to fit together like some Gobot or Transformer, to shape it into whatever fits your personal preference.


This is correct. I am beginning to understand a little here, a little there, these precepts are building line unpon line.










But absolute truth isn't decided. It is discerned.



I agree with this statement fully.




(And fyi, many of us do not believe we are Jews or "spiritual Israel." That's only covenental theology, born out of the Catholic Church.)




I disagree with this. Christianity believes itself to be spiritual Israel, that is a fact you either seek to limit or are unaware of.The ego of christianity is a well know thing amoung us sinners who you condemn daily.


Queen, my answer to your question is forthcoming. I apologize for the delay.

[bar Jonah]

mickiel:
I disagree with this. Christianity believes itself to be spiritual Israel, that is a fact you either seek to limit or are unaware of.The ego of christianity is a well know thing amoung us sinners who you condemn daily.

No, Mickiel, I'm sorry but a huge portion of Christian theology categorically rejects that we are spiritual Israel. Dispensationalism (whether of the Acts 2 variety, or Acts 9, or Acts 28) believes that we are separate and different from Israel in God's plan. We haven't replaced them, we aren't grafted onto them, we aren't them. Separate group of believers, separate plan of salvation, different rules and expectations from God.

But don't feel bad; most non-believers aren't aware of this distinction in Christian theology.

[bar Jonah]

What the hey??? I posted a HUGE post to Queen this morning, in response to her question, and now it's gone!

I can't believe I have to retype the whole thing! :bawl:

[bar Jonah]

Queen, well, I'm going to take another crack at this, and hope I can remember as much as possible about what I wrote, with a Krispy Kreme sour cream donut in one hand, and some coconut--rum-enhanced hot chocolate in the other. :ri: (And please read the whole post before you assume what I'm trying to say, because it is multi-leveled in a sense.


You asked if you are part of the evil of this world. The answer is yes and no, in a way.

You see, from a Christian perspective, believers are set apart from this world. As new creations in Christ, we are in the world, but not of the world. I used to be of the world, part of it. But now, I am a foreigner, just passing through before I head home. Where is my home? Heaven. I won't just be a citizen there someday ... I am a citizen there, right now.

Just as a foreigner traveling in the U.S. is supposed to obey the laws here, so we are told by the Bible to submit to the legal authorities wherever we may be... except when it requires us to sin. Thus, I may believe many parts of the U.S. government is evil, that it has created many evil laws (though many good ones to be sure), but I am not going to refuse to pay my taxes or something.

This division, this disunity is a good thing. Jesus said He came not to bring peace or unity; He brought a sword. Division. Dischord in the world. Separation between His people and the world. Is a person to be allied with evil? Of course not. We should be set apart from evil.

Example... If we are at war with Nazi Germany and Hitler, we attack the enemy and seek the overthrow and/or destruction of the opposing regime. But does this mean we actively seek out to destroy some housewife in Hamburg? Of course not. We don't hate her, and we don't want to kill her. Nevertheless, she is a part of the evil system, and in this limited analogy, she may be under the illusion of that evil regime just as many Germans were, under the oppression of Hitler's charismatic tongue. Consequently, she may become a casualty in the war, but she is not the object of our hatred.

Yet, at the same time, do we not wish for those on the other side to defect to ours?

But again, are you part of the evil in this world?

When a person accepts the sacrifice of Christ, and His gift of grace, God sets him/her apart from the world. When this happens, a believer gains three enemies he/she never had before.

Satan -- The Lord of this world, the head of the evil regime. He didn't used to be my enemy; I was a part of his regime. I was under his thumb, and he liked me where I was. Satan isn't opposed to having good morals. He is opposed to me submitting to God's will and accepting Christ as my savior. If I have good morals and reject Christ, Satan is quite happy. He knows that without Christ, one has no infallible anchor in ones morality, anyway; one must eventually fall into destruction.

Flesh -- A Christian's own flesh is still of the world, even if our spiritual self is not. As a new creation, I have a renewed mind, a new heart, all at war with my sinful flesh as Paul hauntingly describes in his letters. And I will not be free of this last vestige of sin until my earthly death. Until then, I will continue to struggle against the lust and sin of my members. But I didn't used to. I used to go right along with its desires. I used to revel in them. Used to be friends, now we are enemies.

The World -- Finally, the system that is ruled by Satan, comprised of free will individuals. Not all sin comes directly from the Accuser, the great Deceiver. An unrepentant sinner is at peace with his or her sin, and doesn't need Lucifer's interference, pressure or influence to do something wrong. I acted wrongly quite well without his help, although help he did, on many occasions.

I typically deride parallels between The Matrix and Christianity... However, on this topic, I see a very good parallel, especially noted in the Agent Program scene in the first movie.

In this story, the heroes are called out, set apart from the world, now citizens in the heavens (figuratively, at least), and they actively work to awaken others in the world from their oppressive slavery of the illusion that the world puts on them.

But as Morpheus bluntly points out... although we are trying to save them... until we do, they are still a part of this system which we are at war with. We desire them to defect to the side of good, but until they do, they are still the enemy in some sense. We don't seek to harm them, don't wish to hurt them. But we will work against them if we have to.

Of course, in true Christianity, we do not go out and kill people for Jesus. And yet it amazes me that people can watch The Matrix and laud these heroes for what they do... and then turn around and deride a Christian for the horribly "judgemental" act of expressing the exclusive claim of Christianity openly, and seeking to share the gospel with others, seeking to gain "converts" to the one, true God. It's okay to for Neo to kill housewives and security guards because his ultimate goal of freeing mankind is a good one. But if I witness to someone at work or on a bus (just talking!), I'm narrow-minded and intolerant.

Queen, the answer is that to a Christian, you are a part of the world... the world we're no longer a part of. And as such, you are part of the evil system that we urgently fight against. Fighting not with swords and guns and bombs, but with words we deeply believe to be Truth. It doesn't mean we think you are Hitler or Vlad the Impaler. But it does mean we recognize that you are still a part of the system. We may work to generate legislation that we believe is good, and in doing so, we may work against you.

But at the same time, we have the love and compassion that inspires us to desire for you to defect from that materialistic system of illusion and corruption. We don't want you to be our enemy. We want you to be a child of God, set free from the illusion of this faulty, corrupted, dishonest, materialistic, self-centered world. This world will destroy you, one way or another. And I, for one, don't want that to happen.

I love you. And I desire very much for you to be saved.

I hope this at least comes close to answering your question. Whether it does or not, feel free to ask me anything, anytime. Here in a thread, or in PM, as you wish.

:ri:

[Queen]

RightIdea,

Wow....that answer......intense THANK YOU :flowers: for your wish to save me. It warmed my heart.

Great metaphore, the movie the Matrix...Thanks that expalined a lot......

Mind you, very personal and probably very chaotic reply... :tongue:

I understand what you mean. I am not a Christian and part of the world, ruled for a part anyway, by evil (I don't believe in Satan either). That is very logical and I understand why you want people to be saved. The WW2 metaphore is stricking, because my Dad was in the American army during the last two years of WW2 and he always said that he shot at the uniform, not at the person in the uniform. If he would have known those people personally he would not have been able to shoot. I always kept that in mind. My Dad learned me to not judge people only by the outside but to talk to them, if possible and find out who they truly are.

Let me explain how I became an atheist. I have been scared for the dark all my life, but we had a family of six in a not too big a house. There was always somebody there. No need to be scared. When I got married I was alone a lot at night and I would be so scared that I would hide in the bathroom with my bible and read out loud, in the hope God would take the fear away. For me nothing happened. I heard people say that they felt how God and Jesus entered their heart and I never experienced that feeling. I prayed for it, wondered what I was doing wrong. After a lot of soul searching I understood what 'God' was to me. This is going to sound weird.......so bear with me.... :teeth: God is to me the DNA in my body. It knows all about me and it is a divine molecule. It is the core of all live on this earth....... DNA and RNA.

Jesus is to me a man who was a freedom fighter, a peaceful one, like Mahatma Gandhi and the Dalai Lama and many more. I believe he existed and I love to read about him and his thoughts in the bible........

Religion for me is the hope in my heart for a peaceful world, filled with respect and compassion. I am not perfect and yes, according to the bible I have sinned, I have done wrong and I struggle with feelings of guilt every day. Yet I do believe that if I ever discover that God exists, he will understand my "religion".......In many ways I respect people that are able to feel deep faith. That is why I will never judge them for their faith.....never. I sort of admire their faith.

Lately there is doubt again. Because I suffer from a depression and things that ave happened in my past, I doubt if I am "punished" by a higher force for not believing. I just struggle with one question.....which higher force in this world is the true one? How will I ever know if I made the good choice...?

I do believe one thing. As long as people don't respect, feel compassion for and try to understand other people for their choices in life like religion or no religion, what kind of religion, lifestyle, culture, sub-culture, sexual orientation, clothing, skin color, hair color, disability, health , looks and so on.....we will keep on having evil in this world. People hate each other for the most stupid things and that hate can be so horrible that they are able to kill each other for it......that is for me the root of evil/sin...

Does this make any sense?

Too add, today people died out of hate. 15 souls were lost and I hope they will be free and happy, where ever they are. My thoughts goes out to their families and loved ones........They are going home, but not the way they planned..... All the people who have died on this planet today and in the past because of evil, disrespect and hate should not have died in vain....we should fight/pray/hope peacefully for a better world......

Queen

[bar Jonah]

I'm glad my meager post helped answer your question to some extent, Queen. I will respond to you again, later tonight, after I get off work.

Take care, and God bless the Hell out of you. :rired:

[mickiel]

Yesterday @ 08:49 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=268818#post268818)
RightIdea:

Queen, well, I'm going to take another crack at this, and hope I can remember as much as possible about what I wrote, with a Krispy Kreme sour cream donut in one hand, and some coconut--rum-enhanced hot chocolate in the other. :ri: (And please read the whole post before you assume what I'm trying to say, because it is multi-leveled in a sense.


You asked if you are part of the evil of this world. The answer is yes and no, in a way.

You see, from a Christian perspective, believers are set apart from this world. As new creations in Christ, we are in the world, but not of the world. I used to be of the world, part of it. But now, I am a foreigner, just passing through before I head home. Where is my home? Heaven. I won't just be a citizen there someday ... I am a citizen there, right now.

Just as a foreigner traveling in the U.S. is supposed to obey the laws here, so we are told by the Bible to submit to the legal authorities wherever we may be... except when it requires us to sin. Thus, I may believe many parts of the U.S. government is evil, that it has created many evil laws (though many good ones to be sure), but I am not going to refuse to pay my taxes or something.

This division, this disunity is a good thing. Jesus said He came not to bring peace or unity; He brought a sword. Division. Dischord in the world. Separation between His people and the world. Is a person to be allied with evil? Of course not. We should be set apart from evil.

Example... If we are at war with Nazi Germany and Hitler, we attack the enemy and seek the overthrow and/or destruction of the opposing regime. But does this mean we actively seek out to destroy some housewife in Hamburg? Of course not. We don't hate her, and we don't want to kill her. Nevertheless, she is a part of the evil system, and in this limited analogy, she may be under the illusion of that evil regime just as many Germans were, under the oppression of Hitler's charismatic tongue. Consequently, she may become a casualty in the war, but she is not the object of our hatred.

Yet, at the same time, do we not wish for those on the other side to defect to ours?

But again, are you part of the evil in this world?

When a person accepts the sacrifice of Christ, and His gift of grace, God sets him/her apart from the world. When this happens, a believer gains three enemies he/she never had before.

Satan -- The Lord of this world, the head of the evil regime. He didn't used to be my enemy; I was a part of his regime. I was under his thumb, and he liked me where I was. Satan isn't opposed to having good morals. He is opposed to me submitting to God's will and accepting Christ as my savior. If I have good morals and reject Christ, Satan is quite happy. He knows that without Christ, one has no infallible anchor in ones morality, anyway; one must eventually fall into destruction.

Flesh -- A Christian's own flesh is still of the world, even if our spiritual self is not. As a new creation, I have a renewed mind, a new heart, all at war with my sinful flesh as Paul hauntingly describes in his letters. And I will not be free of this last vestige of sin until my earthly death. Until then, I will continue to struggle against the lust and sin of my members. But I didn't used to. I used to go right along with its desires. I used to revel in them. Used to be friends, now we are enemies.

The World -- Finally, the system that is ruled by Satan, comprised of free will individuals. Not all sin comes directly from the Accuser, the great Deceiver. An unrepentant sinner is at peace with his or her sin, and doesn't need Lucifer's interference, pressure or influence to do something wrong. I acted wrongly quite well without his help, although help he did, on many occasions.

I typically deride parallels between The Matrix and Christianity... However, on this topic, I see a very good parallel, especially noted in the Agent Program scene in the first movie.

In this story, the heroes are called out, set apart from the world, now citizens in the heavens (figuratively, at least), and they actively work to awaken others in the world from their oppressive slavery of the illusion that the world puts on them.

But as Morpheus bluntly points out... although we are trying to save them... until we do, they are still a part of this system which we are at war with. We desire them to defect to the side of good, but until they do, they are still the enemy in some sense. We don't seek to harm them, don't wish to hurt them. But we will work against them if we have to.

Of course, in true Christianity, we do not go out and kill people for Jesus. And yet it amazes me that people can watch The Matrix and laud these heroes for what they do... and then turn around and deride a Christian for the horribly "judgemental" act of expressing the exclusive claim of Christianity openly, and seeking to share the gospel with others, seeking to gain "converts" to the one, true God. It's okay to for Neo to kill housewives and security guards because his ultimate goal of freeing mankind is a good one. But if I witness to someone at work or on a bus (just talking!), I'm narrow-minded and intolerant.

Queen, the answer is that to a Christian, you are a part of the world... the world we're no longer a part of. And as such, you are part of the evil system that we urgently fight against. Fighting not with swords and guns and bombs, but with words we deeply believe to be Truth. It doesn't mean we think you are Hitler or Vlad the Impaler. But it does mean we recognize that you are still a part of the system. We may work to generate legislation that we believe is good, and in doing so, we may work against you.

But at the same time, we have the love and compassion that inspires us to desire for you to defect from that materialistic system of illusion and corruption. We don't want you to be our enemy. We want you to be a child of God, set free from the illusion of this faulty, corrupted, dishonest, materialistic, self-centered world. This world will destroy you, one way or another. And I, for one, don't want that to happen.

I love you. And I desire very much for you to be saved.

I hope this at least comes close to answering your question. Whether it does or not, feel free to ask me anything, anytime. Here in a thread, or in PM, as you wish.

:ri:











What will become of those who are not taken out of the matrix? What happens to all the unrepentant sinners who have lived and died in their sins? Mark well your answer christian, by it, i will show the true nature of christianity in a post like i have never before shown.

[bar Jonah]

mickiel:
What will become of those who are not taken out of the matrix? What happens to all the unrepentant sinners who have lived and died in their sins? Mark well your answer christian, by it, i will show the true nature of christianity in a post like i have never before shown.
As the Bible says, they will die in their sins, go down to the present Hell, awaiting the future judgement of Christ, at which time He will have them thrown into the Lake of Fire for eternity.

Revelation 19:20
Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 20:10
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 20:14-15
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:7-8
He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, and sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
Notice this last passage. The Bible specifically contrasts two groups of people. Believers will inherit all things and will be His children. BUT, the unbelieving, the sinners, etc., will be cast in the Lake of Fire.

And then, later inherit everything and be His children? No. Nowhere does it say that.

But, of course, that's only if you believe the Bible. *cough*

[mickiel]

Today @ 08:27 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=270193#post270193)
RightIdea:


As the Bible says, they will die in their sins, go down to the present Hell, awaiting the future judgement of Christ, at which time He will have them thrown into the Lake of Fire for eternity.


This mentality cannot save the world. It is barbaric, as its creator. This is the false gospel at its ugilest. It is evil and insane doctrine, just like the nature of the one who has thrust it into mankinds religous system.






Revelation 19:20
Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.



None of these are humans, none of this is the predestned fate of mankind. This verse proves that satan has deceived the whole world, Rev. 12:9. Notice that satan and his angels were THROWN DOWN to earth, they DIDNOT "FALL". The teaching of the "fall" of angels is just as big a lie as the so called "fall " of man. Both devils and man were thrown out. But satan HAS DECEIVED, but who, the WHOLE EARTH. Christians convientely exclude themselves from this, a serious error in judgement. The church is what satan deceived, the world was already in his pocket.




Revelation 20:10
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.



Again NONE of these are humans. This is NOT a human fate.





Revelation 20:14-15
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.


AGAIN NONE of these ARE HUMAN.




Revelation 21:7-8
He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, and sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
Notice this last passage. The Bible specifically contrasts two groups of people. Believers will inherit all things and will be His children. BUT, the unbelieving, the sinners, etc., will be cast in the Lake of Fire.



You skip Rev. 21:6 where Jesus is GIVING the WATER OF LIFE FREELY to those who thirst. You know good and well the group of people ALREADY BORN AGAIN ARE NOT THIRSTY! Who is he offering this water to that are thirsting? 20:13-15 shows clearly who this offer of eternal life is GIVEN to, HUMANS IN THE LAKE OF FIRE, THATS WHY THEY WILL BE THIRSTY. You know good and well if i am in a lake of fire, i will thirst. Jesus is STILL SAVING HUMANS AFTER they are tossed in. Christianity cannot, will not accept this truth, they hate it. Its the spirit of the prodical sons brother, not WANTING THE SINNER TO COME HOME, even at this junture. A horrible aititude, ugly senseless barbaric belief. That kind of heart cannot, willnot see the hope i have just shown. Its right there for those who believe.





And then, later inherit everything and be His children? No. Nowhere does it say that.

But, of course, that's only if you believe the Bible. *cough*

Here is the inheritance, Isaiah 45:25, ALL the offspring of Isreal SHALL BE SAVED! Why, because of 1 Corinth. 1:7-9, because wherever mankind lacks-- Jesus is the filler in, the forgiving factor, the one who tips the scales of Judgement our way--1 John 2:2, HE will confirm US BLAMELESS in the END. Praise God the merciful, Jesus will interceed and be our Lord in the day of reconciling. He is our hope, he is giving eternal life away to everybody he loves, everyone who needs forgiveness, Christ is there for you at anytime. Ask the sinful theif on the cross, his sin was wiped out, ask the sinful woman caught in the act of adultery, her sin was washed away. The christians used to be persecuted and thrown to the lions, now their anscestors are throwing mankind to the lions of hell. Christians may forsake sinners, but Jesus, the Lamb of God, will NEVER forsake us sinners. I stake my life on that!

[bar Jonah]

Mickiel, one big problem. Not all offspring of Israel are offspring of Israel. Paul makes that very clear in Romans.

1 Corinthians 1:7-9 is written to believers. Yes, for one who is a believer, God now fills in where that person lacks. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit. Even if we lose faith, God will have faith for us.

But nowhere does this apply to those who don't have faith to begin with. Non-Christians cannot co-opt this promise for themselves the way you try to do, Mick.

The thief on the cross, the adulteress... they put their faith in Him, making Him their Lord. But you've done no such thing. They have that promise.

I knew you would put on your blinders and pretend that those passages in Revelation don't exist. You would have us think that this 1 Corinthians passage somehow negates Revelation. :rihrm:

[mickiel]

[QUOTE]Today @ 11:45 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=270442#post270442)
RightIdea:

Mickiel, one big problem. Not all offspring of Israel are offspring of Israel. Paul makes that very clear in Romans.




Israel is the decendants of Father Abraham, ALL of us are decendants of him. Israel means Gods family, you cannot condense what is meant to grow. Israel is symbolic of Gods people. The whole earth is the LORDS and the fullness thereof, the WORLD and ALL who dwell in it. This is universal Right Idea, it is NOT exclusive. God is not exclusive or partially calling just a spiritual people. He is NOW calling only certain people, called the firstfruits, and will call the entirety of humanity later.


Rom. 3:3 is clear, unbelief does not stop Gods faith. Gods faith is how we are called, you think the individuals faith , their self deciding will is the how one is called. John 6:44 disputes your belief. No man can call himself, which is self will, self spiritual awareness, or self mindedness to seek God, an offshoot of free will error. The human must be DRAWN, their mind PRICKED BY HEAVEN, as was Paul and EVERY OTHER PERSON CALLED BY GOD. They were NOT called BECAUSE of belief, Belief was GRANTED to them- Phil. 1:29, John 3:27, you cannot see these scriptures. You can't address them in your theology, it is not possible. Unbelief has NOTHING to do with Gods calling or salvation. Almost NONE of the great prophets and apostles believed in God BEFORE the calling. Why can't you understand this truth?

[bar Jonah]

mickiel:
Israel is the decendants of Father Abraham, ALL of us are decendants of him. Israel means Gods family, you cannot condense what is meant to grow. Israel is symbolic of Gods people. The whole earth is the LORDS and the fullness thereof, the WORLD and ALL who dwell in it. This is universal Right Idea, it is NOT exclusive. God is not exclusive or partially calling just a spiritual people. He is NOW calling only certain people, called the firstfruits, and will call the entirety of humanity later.


Rom. 3:3 is clear, unbelief does not stop Gods faith. Gods faith is how we are called, you think the individuals faith , their self deciding will is the how one is called. John 6:44 disputes your belief. No man can call himself, which is self will, self spiritual awareness, or self mindedness to seek God, an offshoot of free will error. The human must be DRAWN, their mind PRICKED BY HEAVEN, as was Paul and EVERY OTHER PERSON CALLED BY GOD. They were NOT called BECAUSE of belief, Belief was GRANTED to them- Phil. 1:29, John 3:27, you cannot see these scriptures. You can't address them in your theology, it is not possible. Unbelief has NOTHING to do with Gods calling or salvation. Almost NONE of the great prophets and apostles believed in God BEFORE the calling. Why can't you understand this truth?
A Calvinist Universalist. Now I've heard everything. LOL

Mickiel, you can't be serious when you say we're all descended from Abraham. :huh: Only some people in the world are descended from him. He was only one of millions of people in the world at the time. That doesn't even make the least bit of sense. It's fallacious prima facie.

And still ignoring the scripture I gave you, eh? Keep on... keep on...

[mickiel]

[
A Calvinist Universalist. Now I've heard everything. LOL

Mickiel, you can't be serious when you say we're all descended from Abraham. :huh: Only some people in the world are descended from him. He was only one of millions of people in the world at the time. That doesn't even make the least bit of sense. It's fallacious prima facie.





Gal. 3:29, if you belong to Christ, you ARE Abrahams seed and heirs according to the promise. Who belongs to Christ? John 17:2 God Gave EVERYONE to Christ, your religon teachs he has only given him believers. It gets no plainer than this. Its just not getting through your head. Religon has made the whole head of mankind sick, and their heart faint for the salvation of sinners. And its going to get even colder in this world.

[bar Jonah]

mickiel:
Gal. 3:29, if you belong to Christ, you ARE Abrahams seed and heirs according to the promise. Who belongs to Christ? John 17:2 God Gave EVERYONE to Christ, your religon teachs he has only given him believers. It gets no plainer than this. Its just not getting through your head. Religon has made the whole head of mankind sick, and their heart faint for the salvation of sinners. And its going to get even colder in this world.
John 17:2 says He will give eternal life to all those who are given to Him. NOWHERE does it say everyone in the world is given to Him. Now you're making things up and adding to scripture.

Galatians is explicit on the fact that you can only take part in the promise of Abraham through faith! Only believers receive this promise, Mick. As usual, you take a few verses that appear to back you up if read by themselves, ignoring everything around them. Your claim is utterly indefensible.

And you know what scripture you're still ignoring. I've told you about it twice already. I don't believe you're stupid, so the only other option is you're willfully ignoring it.

If you "don't remember," then read back and find it yourself. Why should I take part in your charade? :rihrm:

[bar Jonah]

You know, Mick, according to you, I'm going to spend eternity with God, no matter what I do. So why are you telling me I'm wrong, judging me, correcting me?

Nothing is wrong if everything has the same exact outcome.

I can get to Heaven by being Jim... or by being another John Wayne Gacy. Why not? Nothing we do matters. We can live any way we want.

[Queen]

But I have just a question: If everybody gets a change to reach heaven, no matter how he lived, I should end up there too. I might be an atheist, I am not perfect, but I don't do extreme terrible things like killing or stealing or whatever........If God exists and I will stand before Him after I die (oh, how do I explain to Him that I was such a sceptic :huh: :wink:) , I am sure I am free to enter Heaven. At least that is my conclusion to all your bible verse slapping.......Would that not be a logical conclusion?

Lots of love and sunshine,
Queen

[bar Jonah]

Queen, that's exactly what he's saying, quite unapologetically.

But as I told AA earlier... based on the logic you just used, Ted Bundy could just as easily say, "Heck, I'm not that bad... Hitler killed 10s of millions of innocent people. I only killed 33 or so, and I didn't even rape or torture all of them. I'm not that bad. Compared to that son of a gun, I'm pretty decent."

What arbitrary standard are we to be measured against?

Ahhhh, the sweet scent of relative morality.

[Queen]

RightIdea,

I know and understand what you mean, but.....Bbbbrrrrrr.......that is a scary comparison. I have read that reply to AA. But isn't that a bit extreme? I mean, would that not be awful........those women bumping into their rapist/murderer in heaven. Punished for all eternity, those women I mean.

I believe that I live not a bad life. I do sin (according to the bible, not me.... :wink: ), but I never would harm a living creature, on purpose, for the kick of or just for fun. Doesn't that count for anything? Like I said so many times before.....I am only human. Every human being makes mistakes and choices that could be a good or a bad choice. But as long as you respect other living beings, isn't that different?

Just thinking out loud here. I do not believe that there is a Heaven, but when I die and find out I was wrong, would I end up in Hell? That is a scary thought, but to fake that I believe in God would be so wrong. That would be lying to myself.

lots of love and sunshine,
Queen

[bar Jonah]

Queen:
I believe that I live not a bad life. I do sin (according to the bible, not me.... :wink: ), but I never would harm a living creature, on purpose, for the kick of or just for fun. Doesn't that count for anything? Like I said so many times before.....I am only human. Every human being makes mistakes and choices that could be a good or a bad choice. But as long as you respect other living beings, isn't that different?

lots of love and sunshine,
Queen
You respect other living beings all the time, 100% perfectly?

You believe you live "not a bad life." Compared to who or what? Mother Theresa or Ted Bundy? What arbitrary standard have you chosen to measure yourself against, and why does that choice have any meaning or relevance?

[Queen]

RightIdea....

You are a though cookie..... :shocked:


You respect other living beings all the time, 100% perfectly?

You believe you live "not a bad life." Compared to who or what? Mother Theresa or Ted Bundy? What arbitrary standard have you chosen to measure yourself against, and why does that choice have any meaning or relevance?

No, of course not 100% perfectly. If I get a bacterial or viral infection I will kill those liitle 'bugs' with my immune system and meds. The instinct to survive can be strong. I am not that naive....

Compared to no-one. But my examples/ role models in live are: Jane Goodall, His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama and Mahatma Gandhi. For the rest it is just a feeling I have inside. I try to do good, as much as my weak body allows it. Of course you don't know me personally, but I am not a bad gal :wink:. I said this before (in more than one post I think): My guideline in life is love respect and compassion for all living beings. It is a guideline, but I try very hard to live accordingly to that guideline. Like you try hard to live accordingly to your guideline, the bible and God's laws. And again, I am not perfect.......I make mistakes.....Thank Goodness I am only human!

But if you reach Heaven, to what do you compare the way you live? Ted Bundy or Mahatma Gandhi?......Do you compare yourself to others?

LOLAS,
Queen

[bar Jonah]

Queen, I only compare myself to One Other.


In this life, you cannot completely rely on stuff. Stuff lets you down. Things break, they come and go like the weather, the rot and disintegrate. Things and stuff always eventually fails.

You cannot completely rely on other people. People, even the best of them, are imperfect and will sometimes let you down. Whether with good intentions or no, they will sometimes tell lies, not show up, be lazy... eventually, it's always something.

You cannot even completely rely on yourself. Not even in regards to the standards you set for yourself, much less higher standards (those of your family, your employer, your government, possibly your god). You'll let yourself down, time and time again.

What can you ultimately rely on, in this life? Nothing? Nothing at all? Only that which you imagine to have meaning for yourself? And that, only because you were bio-mechanically programmed to do so?

[bar Jonah]

Queen:
RightIdea....

You are a though cookie..... :shocked:
And I'm not a tough cookie. He is. I'm a weakling apart from Him.

I'm not smart enough... not wise enough... not strong enough, or brave enough, or patient enough.... Apart from Him, I'm not good enough. Because picking Jane Goodall over Ted Bundy is an arbitrary choice of comparison... but He is an absolute standard. Perfection.

I've drawn a bow and arrow a few times in my life; not often. And frankly, I suck. I know I'm not going to hit that bullseye. Even if I do, it's a fluke or the rare exception at best.

But guess what I aim for, every time? Do I aim for the outer circle? After all, it has the greatest area on the target. But no... What do I aim for? Perfection, every time. The bullseye.

How do I discern what perfection is? I look to Him. There is no other objective standard. And without an objective standard, you can't prove that Goodall is a better standard than Bundy.

[Queen]

RightIdea,

:kiss: You are a wonderful person, you don't suck!! (That is MY opinion :wink:)


And without an objective standard, you can't prove that Goodall is a better standard than Bundy.

Ouch!!!

Jane Goodall is a very religious wonderful and peaceful human being. I don't know if you have seen her or heard her speak, but she is very serene. So, to me that is a much much better standard than Jane Goodall.

The difference, I think, between you and me if the fact that you believe in God and I don't. I guess that gives us both a different outlook on this matter, although I agree with you......to a certain point. But that doesn't mean you are wrong. Maybe I am, I am not perfect, smart and so on enough and I don't own wisdom....

I just try to be as good as possibly......what more can I do?

Lots of love and sunshine,
Queen

[bar Jonah]

Queen:
RightIdea,

:kiss: You are a wonderful person, you don't suck!! (That is MY opinion :wink:)
If you met me back when I was apart from God, you'd say otherwise. I was a scumbag, and I left some very hurt people in my wake. I left some in earth-shattering pain.


Ouch!!!

Jane Goodall is a very religious wonderful and peaceful human being. I don't know if you have seen her or heard her speak, but she is very serene. So, to me that is a much much better standard than Jane Goodall.
Says who? You're starting out by assuming a standard (arbitrary) and finding someone who fits that, and then using that as a measure for yourself. A form of circular logic. The standard comes from you, then you find a person who fits it, and then you aspire to that? Do you see the circle?

What non-arbitrary reason do you have for holding up Goodall rather than Bundy?


The difference, I think, between you and me if the fact that you believe in God and I don't. I guess that gives us both a different outlook on this matter, although I agree with you......to a certain point. But that doesn't mean you are wrong. Maybe I am, I am not perfect, smart and so on enough and I don't own wisdom....

I just try to be as good as possibly......what more can I do?

Lots of love and sunshine,
Queen
As good as possible, according to an arbitrary standard that you decided on to begin with. Bundy did the same. :nsm:

Can I pick my own arbitrary standard, too? Maybe Nathan Bedford Forrest, the founder of the KKK?

[mickiel]

Today @ 12:47 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=270480#post270480)
RightIdea:


John 17:2 says He will give eternal life to all those who are given to Him. NOWHERE does it say everyone in the world is given to Him. Now you're making things up and adding to scripture.

Galatians is explicit on the fact that you can only take part in the promise of Abraham through faith! Only believers receive this promise, Mick. As usual, you take a few verses that appear to back you up if read by themselves, ignoring everything around them. Your claim is utterly indefensible.



To show christians scriptures and think they may understand them is a waste of time. Then they have the nerve to accuse one of not using them. Why ask a blind man to read a book? Christians can't understand God unless he imprints religous brail into their minds. And i think still some of you would stubbornly hold to your tradition.









And you know what scripture you're still ignoring. I've told you about it twice already. I don't believe you're stupid, so the only other option is you're willfully ignoring it.

If you "don't remember," then read back and find it yourself. Why should I take part in your charade? :rihrm:



Do as you wish, either produce the scripture or consider me a charade, makes no difference to me what you do.

[bar Jonah]

mickiel:
Do as you wish, either produce the scripture or consider me a charade, makes no difference to me what you do.
A charade it is. Deal. :ri:

(If you can't keep up or pay attention, no problem, just say so. I'm willing to cut someone some slack for that.)

[EdJones]

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

[mickiel]

Yesterday @ 11:28 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=271678#post271678)
EdJones:

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.




This scripture is NOT concerning the great harvest of mankind. This is not refering to all of humanity, it is a specific. If one refers it to humanity as a whole, nothing but misunderstanding can come. If you do that, you will efectively doom much of mankind, a favorite translation of christianity. This verse is refering to the firstfruits, and them alone. Those who are called by God in the endtime era of his church. They have an annointing to suffer, and suffer they will. Really, so will most of the other people on earth during these horrible days.

These are the firstfruits, and few of them will be chosen anyway. The "few there be who find it", are the chosen. Many will be called, but from that many, few will be selected to suffer. Strait is the gate, means Gods way is righteousness, not crookedness. Narrow is the way, is the plan of salvation, streamlined and measured to perfection. It is the only way, one cannot turn from it, ther is no room for turning.


Wide is the gate, and broad is the way of destruction, is just a description of this whole earth, in their fullness of sin.

[Queen]

Oh man!.....here we go again....scripture verses..... :doh:

Just say it in your own words. I mean, you have an opinion about this sin thingy.......what is it? Your own words, your own feelings and emotions.

RightIdea,

Hmm....How shall I explain? I have read many of Jane Goodall's books and her book 'reason for hope' is a personal book about her spiritual side as well.Comparing Bundy with her is like comparing me with.....oh, what the heck... Jesus....And I never killed a living creature. But if you don't know Jane Goodall, I understand the confusion, because you never said anything about Mahatma Gandhi or His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama.

What I was trying to say is that we all have rolemodels in our lives. And for you it is God, for me these are a few of the people I admire.....like I admire Jesus and Buddha....

I do not sin in the biblical sense (because I do not agree with all these laws), but I sin against myself and others...I am not perfect. I just try to follow my personal guideline. To love, respect and feel compassion for all living creatures.......what more can I say or do?

Lots of love and sunshine,
Queen

[Bill the Cat]

Queen, while I do enjoy your posting here, please remember the guidelines of Comparative Religions. This area is for theist participation. I apologize for not catching this earlier. Thanks for the understanding.

[Queen]

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/sad/666.gif

:doh: :metro: Oops.....I know....Dee Dee was so kind to pm me about it.... :blush: So this will be my last post...anyone who wants to talk to me about it can pm me if they want....

Lots of love and sunshine,
Queen

[mickiel]

Yesterday @ 06:46 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=270809#post270809)
RightIdea:

Queen, that's exactly what he's saying, quite unapologetically.

But as I told AA earlier... based on the logic you just used, Ted Bundy could just as easily say, "Heck, I'm not that bad... Hitler killed 10s of millions of innocent people. I only killed 33 or so, and I didn't even rape or torture all of them. I'm not that bad. Compared to that son of a gun, I'm pretty decent."

What arbitrary standard are we to be measured against?

Ahhhh, the sweet scent of relative morality.





Relitive morality stinks. God has killed more humans than all of the human killers combined throughout human history. Killing is not an unforgivible sin. All sin, no matter what it is or how long you do it can be forgiven, save one, and ONLY one. I don't care how sin rubs against the self righteousness of christian morality, it is still forgiven, Mark 3:28. John 1:29.